The Ukraine War, implications, outcome?

[Lyinx]

The Chinese Communist Party is not omnipresent. You just need enough money to bribe the local officials to get them to zip their mouths. China is progressing fast but their local/provincial government officials are extremely corrupt and take bribes.




1) The biolabs were funded by the US Dept of Defence if I'm not wrong, not their Dept of Health. If it's for normal health research, why is their DoD in charge of that? Unless the US doesn't have a health ministry and their DoD has to do that job?

2) The locations of the biolabs were on the eastern part of Ukraine, near to Russia's border. This doesn't make sense since the closer you're to Russia (in the case of US and Ukraine), the more dangerous it is. Logically, they should have positioned it nearer to the western part, nearer to Lviv and Poland. So why do the eastern part? Unless it's easier for them to release "it" into Russia's western border? That's the only logical explanation I can think of.

If anyone would like to release "it" from anywhere, they'd make sure their facilities are far away so as not to get the blame. Easy enough to contact trace something back to patient zero.

 

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[Choate]

The false biolabs narrative is similar to what happened in the 1980s when the KGB falsely claimed that the US was sending killer mosquitoes into Afghanistan. Quite funny really.

On the contrary, the US establishes Biological Threat Reduction Programs in many countries which helps counter the impact of outbreaks. It has helped Ukraine upgrade their own laboratories (such as for state food safety and consumer protection; and two were constructed for this purpose in 2019 in Kyiv and Odesa) - studying and mitigating risk for things like bird flu and disease from pigs.

Red herrings.

 

[Napoolion]

2) The locations of the biolabs were on the eastern part of Ukraine, near to Russia's border. This doesn't make sense since the closer you're to Russia (in the case of US and Ukraine), the more dangerous it is. Logically, they should have positioned it nearer to the western part, nearer to Lviv and Poland. So why do the eastern part? Unless it's easier for them to release "it" into Russia's western border? That's the only logical explanation I can think of.

And Russia saying that U.S is training the pigeons to release it unto Russians seems like something out of a cartoon show... Also all those biolabs stuff and releasing something like C0VlD-19 to population makes me question those stuff:
1) World is very interconnected today, do the virus has some kind of tracking to only target Asians and Russians? Don't think so, USA has been very affected with Covid stuff too.

Video from here got me thinking:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZUMJ_T1YBI


Ukraine is a threat to Russia, because they have big oil and gas reserves and otherwise nice resources in East Ukraine. If world starts to buy gas from Ukraine, it will seriously affect Russia's economy, since simplified, oil and gas is pretty much half of their economy. Cutting Ukraine off from the sea helps them massively by making harder for Ukraine to ship raw resources to the rest of the world and also food exports. Also war makes Putin more popular as he can display himself the defender of Russia and people have a sense that Russia is still a world power. Also democratic free market Ukraine is serious issue for regime, since those people would had eventually started to live visibly much better than Russians. People there would had started asking too many questions they don't want people to start asking.

I think it makes sense and nothing about "saving the Russian minority, nazis or biolabs". Good old black gold and resource rich areas is what this fight is about now. But Russia has lowered it's bets, first plan was to puppet whole Ukraine.

 

[Lyinx]

1) World is very interconnected today, do the virus has some kind of tracking to only target Asians and Russians?

you'll find this interesting: genetically engineered bioweapons - Google Search

 

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[Lyinx]

you'll find this interesting: genetically engineered bioweapons - Google Search

Basically, if you would want to target all of Genghis Khan's relatives/offspring (Chinese Warlord from the 1200's), you could find a specific weakness/marker in his offspring's DNA and target it. Might be passed around as a common cold for 50 years before ever touching his kinfolks, and nobody would think much of it till the family shows up for the funeral and all die within a few weeks (well, except maybe the in-laws might survive)

 

[Napoolion]

Basically, if you would want to target all of Genghis Khan's relatives/offspring (Chinese Warlord from the 1200's), you could find a specific weakness/marker in his offspring's DNA and target it. Might be passed around as a common cold for 50 years before ever touching his kinfolks, and nobody would think much of it till the family shows up for the funeral and all die within a few weeks (well, except maybe the in-laws might survive)

Pretty crazy, so you think this was the first attempt with Covid but just failed? Mainly reasoning that it infected everyone.

 

[Silverfox148]

When Covid started, it began in Wuhan, China. Chemlab stories raise questions for me:
1) Why China, with mass control over it's country could not see that the U.S (main enemy of China) is developing dangerous bio weapons with Chinese staff in Chinese territory.
2) As I remember China has tried to shift the blame for their internal audience for long time. Claiming that C0VlD-19 virus originated from an American military base in Maryland in 2021.
3) Why U.S should do some sketchy chemlab stuff in Ukraine, a country which has been in covert war with Russia since 2014. Why not go for Romania or Bulgaria who are also in NATO and don't have the sudden Russian invasion threat. Also why do it in a country where Russia clearly meddles with it's internal politics and supports pro-russian parties in that country and thus had some influence over them.
I thought it was all a false flag to use chemical weapons, which was used during Syrian civil war. I don't think any of us have enough information to really understand what is going with all of that, but also people take any conspiracy theory without clear evidence quite fast into their minds in this day and age, so have to be careful with that.

Part of me suspects and believes C0VlD-19 was designed to be a stealth attack on the Chinese by certain elements within the U.S government. I have no proof of that other than connecting some of the dots, the fact that Obama had made funding Gain of Function research a no no and yet the NIH kept the funding open , stuff like that. I personally would not be surprised if the Chinese released it intentionally on their own surprising the west.

The U.S is in the same spot as Russia when it comes to China, China is gaining critical steam by the day, everyday they grow stronger but there is no clear way to destabilize the Chinese regime. In US run war-games with respect to the Pacific , China comes out ahead most of the time. This leaves the US in a bind as it needs to something drastic to stall China as China is the real threat to US hegemony. There are no clear proxies against the Chinese other than Taiwan, Japan and South Korea have been effectively tied down with North Korea, that only leaves Taiwan and Taiwan is not Ukraine.

The world is going to change drastically in the next decade, I believe by the end of this decade if we avoid all out nuclear war, you will see three main zones/powers, the east led by China along with India and other assorted countries, the West lead by the US along with other North American counties and possibly South America.

The last zone/power will be what is left/still functioning of Europe/Russia after a decade of war perhaps a Russian/Germany/French alliance after all the devastation is done. I don't think Europeans realize they are being marched down the grinder as the proxy battle between the US and China with Russia playing a supporting role starts to gain steam. The fact that the proxy style wars traditionally seen in the Middle East have now arrived in mainland Europe foretells what is ahead.

 

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[Choate]

This thread belongs in the #landfill.

 

[Kevin88660]

Part of me suspects and believes C0VlD-19 was designed to be a stealth attack on the Chinese by certain elements within the U.S government. I have no proof of that other than connecting some of the dots, the fact that Obama had made funding Gain of Function research a no no and yet the NIH kept the funding open , stuff like that. I personally would not be surprised if the Chinese released it intentionally on their own surprising the west.

The U.S is in the same spot as Russia when it comes to China, China is gaining critical steam by the day, everyday they grow stronger but there is no clear way to destabilize the Chinese regime. In US run war-games with respect to the Pacific , China comes out ahead most of the time. This leaves the US in a bind as it needs to something drastic to stall China as China is the real threat to US hegemony. There are no clear proxies against the Chinese other than Taiwan, Japan and South Korea have been effectively tied down with North Korea, that only leaves Taiwan and Taiwan is not Ukraine.

The world is going to change drastically in the next decade, I believe by the end of this decade if we avoid all out nuclear war, you will see three main zones/powers, the east led by China along with India and other assorted countries, the West lead by the US along with other North American counties and possibly South America.

The last zone/power will be what is left/still functioning of Europe/Russia after a decade of war perhaps a Russian/Germany/French alliance after all the devastation is done. I don't think Europeans realize they are being marched down the grinder as the proxy battle between the US and China with Russia playing a supporting role starts to gain steam. The fact that the proxy style wars traditionally seen in the Middle East have now arrived in mainland Europe foretells what is ahead.

There was this rumor/conspiracy that U.S. launched Covid to sabotage China, a strain that U.S. had the cure prepared in advance. China kept quiet about the new variants coming out as a revenge, and caught U.S. off guarded.

So there was this seemingly miscommunication between U.S. and China that China need to punished for hiding about Covid, but China replied that "I was doing lock down since Jan 2020 and the whole world knows it...What the crap are you talking about."

It is like two thieves stealing from one another but no one can really make a police report on that.

 

[Xeon]

I've called this previously, that Zelesnsky the rat is pro-Azov and pro-Nazi.

Azov fighter video overshadows Zelenskiy's address to Greek lawmakers

Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelenskiy's address to the Greek parliament on Thursday caused an outrage from opposition parties after a man who identified himself as an ethnic Greek member of Ukraine's ultranationalist Azov battalion appeared on a video.

www.reuters.com

Disgusting.

 

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[Silverfox148]

I've called this previously, that Zelesnsky the rat is pro-Azov and pro-Nazi.

Azov fighter video overshadows Zelenskiy's address to Greek lawmakers

Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelenskiy's address to the Greek parliament on Thursday caused an outrage from opposition parties after a man who identified himself as an ethnic Greek member of Ukraine's ultranationalist Azov battalion appeared on a video.

www.reuters.com

Disgusting.

Zelensky is definitely an interesting character and seems TV made for this moment in time. There is something that rubs me off about him, I suppose it's the pro acting , he is clearly aware of the cameras and the media savvy, etc, he is a former actor I believe. The fact he is Jewish has been used as some type of shield to bat away the Azov controversy among others. Early on he tried to wrap himself up with the Jewish flag, saying some holocaust memorial had been destroyed. Israel came out quickly and said it wasn't true, he stopped the Jewish thing after that for the most part.

I also find it odd that Israel is one of the few US allies has so far refused to publicly send any weapons shipments and apparently counseled him early on seek peace. I believe eventually the truth will come out about Zelensky, I frankly don't believe he is actually running much of anything in Ukraine as the Ukrainian military is clearly calling the shots.

I do give Zelensky credit for trying the "I'm going to be the pawn but then get you do what I want while being the pawn" trick by trying to draw the US/NATO/West military with boots on the ground, it was good try. I've seen this move tried in the corporate environment, rarely if ever works, but sometimes it does.

 

[Chapas]

There is something that rubs me off about him, I suppose it's the pro acting , he is clearly aware of the cameras and the media savvy, etc, he is a former actor I believe.

He is not just a former actor. He actually had his own tv-show where he played a high school teacher who became the president of Ukraine.

 

[Chapas]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">because they bloody can <a href="https://t.co/FaTUt0lvP6">pic.twitter.com/FaTUt0lvP6</a></p>&mdash; Ukraine / Україна (@Ukraine) <a href="

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512881878440853515

View: https://twitter.com/Ukraine/status/1512881878440853515?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
">April 9, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

No comments.

 

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[Xeon]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">because they bloody can <a href="https://t.co/FaTUt0lvP6">pic.twitter.com/FaTUt0lvP6</a></p>&mdash; Ukraine / Україна (@Ukraine) <a href="

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512881878440853515

View: https://twitter.com/Ukraine/status/1512881878440853515?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
">April 9, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

No comments.

This video is a good example that shows the Russians have been holding back. Entire Kyiv looks intact.
And Boris looks like he's showing off.

Came across this on Twitter today:

 

[Napoolion]

This video is a good example that shows the Russians have been holding back. Entire Kyiv looks intact.
And Boris looks like he's showing off.

This is all they can do without mass mobilization and nukes. So no, they were not holding back and under Kyiv were Russian army most capable troops. Just look wiki of the units who participated: Battle of Kyiv (2022) - Wikipedia

There are plenty of Neo-Nazis in Russia too. Being ultra-nationalist and thinking Russians are better than other nations are all sign of that too.

Russian mercenaries in Ukraine linked to far-right extremists

Wagner Group connected to white supremacists, Tech against Terrorism investigation finds

www.theguardian.com

Russian mercenaries of Wagner group have plenty of Neo-Nazisl:

Wagner Group - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This thread belongs in the #landfill.

Yes, but also you can see what 30 years of Russian Putinist brainwashing media can too. And before that 70 years of U.S.S.R is so great narrative and how communism is the best and how they never did Katyn and that they solely won against Nazi Germany. They only trust pro-Russian news, their mind can't comprehend that Russian soldiers are doing war crimes and even raped a baby and making a video of it. They think Bucha is fake news. Anything nonsense the media says, they will eat it up with no thinking on their part. Russia wants to be a superpower, however they are really not economically or technologically there to fulfil their ambitions and well, nobody around them wants to be part of Russia, so unfortunately this will be a long struggle.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4WEBwsuQf0

 

[Choate]

Yes, but also you can see what 30 years of Russian Putinist brainwashing media can too. And before that 70 years of U.S.S.R is so great narrative and how communism is the best and how they never did Katyn and that they solely won against Nazi Germany. They only trust pro-Russian news, their mind can't comprehend that Russian soldiers are doing war crimes and even raped a baby and making a video of it. They think Bucha is fake news. Anything nonsense the media says, they will eat it up with no thinking on their part. Russia wants to be a superpower, however they are really not economically or technologically there to fulfil their ambitions and well, nobody around them wants to be part of Russia, so unfortunately this will be a long struggle.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4WEBwsuQf0

Just surprised to see it here of all places - this forum is the epitome of "unscripted " which one would think might apply to all facets of life. To be able to form an independent opinion regardless of media narratives or government propaganda. To see things for what they are. Of course, some are just roleplaying an edgy persona for the attention, but I think others have clearly missed the boat.

It's unfortunate as information more freely available than ever before. Which means on the same note, it's more about choice than being brainwashed.

 

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[Napoolion]

Looks like it is going to get worse. Russia using chemical weapons:

Ukrainian Battalion Accuses Russia of Using Chemical Weapons on Civilians

The Azov Regiment, a unit of the National Guard of Ukraine, said chemicals were of an "unknown origin" and dropped via an unmanned aerial vehicle in Mariupol.

www.newsweek.com

Russians saying in the morning they are going to use chemical weapons:

11/04 morning Basurin DPR militia chief claims that they will use chemical weapon in Mariupol against fortified plant. In the evening Azov battalion confirms it, allegedly zarin gas. - Latest News

3,989 points • 825 comments

9gag.com

False flag coming in Russia's soil to probably justify mobilization:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513585511130177536

View: https://twitter.com/zloy_odessit/status/1513585511130177536

This unit does not exist anymore and was disbanded in 2015.

 

[Chapas]

Looks like it is going to get worse. Russia using chemical weapons:

Ukrainian Battalion Accuses Russia of Using Chemical Weapons on Civilians

The Azov Regiment, a unit of the National Guard of Ukraine, said chemicals were of an "unknown origin" and dropped via an unmanned aerial vehicle in Mariupol.

www.newsweek.com

Russians saying in the morning they are going to use chemical weapons:

https://9gag.com

With the amount of lies and propaganda from both sides in this war, I must say that it doesn't seem so credible to quote the Ukrainian version of ISIS who has been shelling their own people for 8 years. Especially when Newsweek themselves admit the claim is unverified, and we all know that Ukraine is trying to get NATO involved in a full scale war with Russia everyday.

Usually I enjoy your sources as I like to see both sides of the propaganda/media perspective, but using these guys as references doesn't do you any good. Having intelligent people quoting and trusting the words of Nazi's (which they are and claim themselves to be) is for me a real proof that the propaganda machine from Ukraine (and Russia for that sake also) have reached new highs.

 

[Xeon]

Looks like it is going to get worse. Russia using chemical weapons:

Ukrainian Battalion Accuses Russia of Using Chemical Weapons on Civilians

The Azov Regiment, a unit of the National Guard of Ukraine, said chemicals were of an "unknown origin" and dropped via an unmanned aerial vehicle in Mariupol.

www.newsweek.com

Russians saying in the morning they are going to use chemical weapons:

11/04 morning Basurin DPR militia chief claims that they will use chemical weapon in Mariupol against fortified plant. In the evening Azov battalion confirms it, allegedly zarin gas. - Latest News

3,989 points • 825 comments

9gag.com

False flag coming in Russia's soil to probably justify mobilization:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513585511130177536

View: https://twitter.com/zloy_odessit/status/1513585511130177536

This unit does not exist anymore and was disbanded in 2015.

For this example, let's assume that Russia really used chemical weapons.

So what is Zelensky the Azov King doing about it? Continue to aggravate the aggressor further, right? So that more of his people can die, isn't it? This is his plan and he doesn't give a flying F how many Ukrainians die, because to him and his owners/handlers, the solution is to continue escalating more, yup?

Here's an example:

A father brings his 6 children into a lift. With him is a bag of $400k which he's going to deposit into the bank.
A robber charges in, holds them at gunpoint.
The robber demands the money, failing which, he will shoot the kids.

Robber: Give me your money now!

Dad: Not on my watch. Get lost.

The robber shoots one of the kids dead.

Robber: Give me your money now or I'll shoot another!

Dad: (tries to punch the robber)

The robber shoots another kid dead.

Robber: Give me your money now or you'll have no kids left!

Dad: Tries to catch hold of the robber.

The robber shoots another kid dead.

See where this is going?

Dad = Zelensky Azov King
Robber = Russia
Kids = Ukrainians

Is the robber at fault? Yup.
Is the dad also at fault? Yup.

 

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[Napoolion]

For this example, let's assume that Russia really used chemical weapons.

So what is Zelensky the Azov King doing about it? Continue to aggravate the aggressor further, right? So that more of his people can die, isn't it? This is his plan and he doesn't give a flying F how many Ukrainians die, because to him and his owners/handlers, the solution is to continue escalating more, yup?

Here's an example:

A father brings his 6 children into a lift. With him is a bag of $400k which he's going to deposit into the bank.
A robber charges in, holds them at gunpoint.
The robber demands the money, failing which, he will shoot the kids.

Robber: Give me your money now!

Dad: Not on my watch. Get lost.

The robber shoots one of the kids dead.

Robber: Give me your money now or I'll shoot another!

Dad: (tries to punch the robber)

The robber shoots another kid dead.

Robber: Give me your money now or you'll have no kids left!

Dad: Tries to catch hold of the robber.

The robber shoots another kid dead.

See where this is going?

Dad = Zelensky Azov King
Robber = Russia
Kids = Ukrainians

Is the robber at fault? Yup.
Is the dad also at fault? Yup.

This is a terrorist tactic. Any country what invades and uses terrorist tactics is at fault. Not really the defender for standing up against him. Were you bullied a lot during school? Did you give what the bully wanted?
And the robber in your story will come back if you give in or shoot you anyway. So the only course of the action really, is to shoot the Robber so that it runs or that you can kill him. If you would appease the aggressor and give in, there will be no protection at all for your people. They can do whatever they want then but currently they can't do everything they want since they are meeting resistance. In fact the use of chemical weapon just shows that Russians can't take Azov steel plant (it is probably a fortress at this point) through the conventional means, thus the use of Sarin gas.

Also, their manpower issues continue, those extra 60 000 troops mobilized are really replacements of the units not going to fight anymore and to replace the casualties. It is not enough and they are already in the grinder. So there will be more drafting coming for sure in Russia. There will be more false flags coming for Russia. Russian troops morale is not that great, they don't know what they are really fighting for and whoever sees what that war is really about and gets out, most of them make sure not to go again.

With the amount of lies and propaganda from both sides in this war, I must say that it doesn't seem so credible to quote the Ukrainian version of ISIS who has been shelling their own people for 8 years. Especially when Newsweek themselves admit the claim is unverified, and we all know that Ukraine is trying to get NATO involved in a full scale war with Russia everyday.

Usually I enjoy your sources as I like to see both sides of the propaganda/media perspective, but using these guys as references doesn't do you any good. Having intelligent people quoting and trusting the words of Nazi's (which they are and claim themselves to be) is for me a real proof that the propaganda machine from Ukraine (and Russia for that sake also) have reached new highs.

Did not notice your reply before. I think it is logical of Russians using the Sarin gas on Azov plant since it is very hard to take. So the gas is to make a ticking bomb before they start suffering nerve damage to get them out of defensive positions. They seemed to have stocked a lot of equipment there prior the invasion and probably can hold out long time. Now I would like to ask how are you gonna verify or not verify if it is true. We know the past use of gas use by Russia, a lot in Syria. There are no independent journalists in Mariupol anymore. Are we going to have a journalist go to Mariupol and go smell an odorless gas and verify, yep that is Sarin gas. Will the Russians even let an investigation team near it. Of course not. Lithuanian documentary maker killed in Ukraine’s Mariupol
I think even if it was used, which is highly likely, west will probably just turn a blind eye to it as well.

I am not denying that Azov battalion has neo-Nazi tendencies. We would also not have seen them if Russia would had not been funding a covert war since 2014 and Russian soldiers crossing the border with Ukraine to actively fight. However If you are talking about Nazis, I am really starting to see more of that in Russian side:

Government flashmob in Russia - employees of state institutions (from deputies to school teachers) are forced to wear white armbands to supposedly show solidarity with the troops. Even children's immature minds are drawn into this nonsense. Morons. -

1,232 points • 245 comments

9gag.com

The Z is everywhere in around cities. Which is why one of the Russian youtubers left the country, because he started to see a resemblance of something. He is talking about Russian perspective side pretty well: https://www.youtube.com/c/MultiNfz/videos

 

[Xeon]

Did you give what the bully wanted?

I did, and most of them got bored of it after a while. A few even ended up as my protectors in school eventually. There's another type of bully I encountered though : the hypocrite ones who were extremely friendly to me in the beginning, then when I sank deeper into the "friendship" with them, they started backstabbing from behind aka Uncle Sam.

If you would appease the aggressor and give in, there will be no protection at all for your people. They can do whatever they want then but currently they can't do everything they want since they are meeting resistance.

Good luck with that. Ukraine's economy is as good as gone now and they're only a few steps from becoming the next Iraq or Libya : a country that will never be rebuilt. At what cost?

 

[Napoolion]

I did, and most of them got bored of it after a while. A few even ended up as my protectors in school eventually. There's another type of bully I encountered though : the hypocrite ones who were extremely friendly to me in the beginning, then when I sank deeper into the "friendship" with them, they started backstabbing from behind aka Uncle Sam.

Sorry man that happened to you. For me it was more of show that it is very costly to mess with me and it helped. There was one fight in particular where I first got hit to a cheek. It was a bad hit, since I did not feel a thing. I then hit him twice into nose which ended the fight. It is very hard to fight when there is blood coming from your nose. I tried to be friends and ease the tension for months, but it did not help. After that, there came respect and peace. Unfortunately, the same is true with Russia, it will only understand force and pain.

Good luck with that. Ukraine's economy is as good as gone now and they're only a few steps from becoming the next Iraq or Libya : a country that will never be rebuilt. At what cost?

Ukraine will get help and aid on that. They will also have access to European market to sell their good to. Their refugees are mostly taken care of. I am more worried about average Russian though. Everyone are looking way out to not buy any gas and fuel from them. The Western investors are not going to put their money in that country for years, too big of a risk. War is costly, the sanctions will cut them as well. It is highly unlikely that they can get rid of their government, in fact Russian government and media can tell, see how everyone hate us, but to be fair it has all been caused of foreign policy of Russian government. All the talent or smarties who can, leave Russia. Unfortunately it will be a big shitshow. Russian soldiers who were at war, especially who retreated from Kyiv region see how pointless that invasion is. So also a good question is, how much is Russian citizen and soldier willing to pay misery payments (lives) for their emperor Putin ambition of expanding Russia?

 

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[Silverfox148]

Haven't posted in a few days, interesting to see people are still looking at this from the same lens as they were previously with zero to no change in perspective which largely mirrors the situation on the ground.

The whole bully analogy does not apply here as the Russian elite views this conflict as existential, very different from your typical bully which knows he can back off and target another victim if the original victim becomes too troublesome. The Russian elite have backed themselves/been backed into a corner by choice mostly by Putin and the reaction of the West. There are no off ramps here for the Russian leadership by the design of Putin it would seem, Russia now has to win in Ukraine or the entire Russian leadership class falls in Russia. Quite Machiavellian on the part of Putin, the Russian leadership must now assist in this plan he has(whatever it happens to be, no one quite knows).

I'm also surprised people here are surprised by alleged Russian chemical weapons use, happens in almost all wars. The US/Marines regularly use "Shake & Bake" tactics in the Middle East to "smoke out the enemy". This is using a chemical/smoke/explosive, etc to get the enemy out of their defensive positions. I'm also unsure what the actual moral difference is of using a bomb to kill someone vs a chemical , etc? Seems like a very semantic argument to again try to draw in NATO/US forces into the fight. It's not going to happen, Ukraine is a proxy, it's a sacrificial lamb to give Russia a bloody nose and check them. Also if Russia is this monster/bully that has attacked Ukraine been on destruction and is constantly committing war crimes, what moral expectations can really be placed on them?

The number one thing we should be looking for is an off ramp to this war, a cease fire of some sort to delay more killing, unfortunately it increasingly looks like even Putin/Russian leadership has just decided to level Ukraine and keep the slow boil going. Putin is betting the West can't hold out politically and perhaps economically he is most likely right, with the election of Orban(Pro Putin) and Macron having trouble in France. The whole let's focus on the war to distract the domestic population trick western countries have used for so long isn't working as well as it used to. It's certainly not working for Biden, he can blame Bush Jr for that.

As for Ukraine, the next phase of this campaign is going to very deadly for the Ukrainians and unfortunately their country/civilization/population. It is my belief now that Putin wants this thing to drag on for his own purposes. The western countries like the US are now/about to enter financial recessions and if the Ukrainians think the domestic populations of those countries are going to support the hundreds of billions flowing to Ukraine to keep this thing going, while domestically the populations suffer.....

Interesting Links:

White phosphorus debate grows white-hot

"Shake 'n' Bake;" it's not just for dinner anymore.

www.sandiegouniontribune.com

 

[Trevor Kuntz]

I'm also surprised people here are surprised by alleged Russian chemical weapons use, happens in almost all wars. The US/Marines regularly use "Shake & Bake" tactics in the Middle East to "smoke out the enemy". This is using a chemical/smoke/explosive, etc to get the enemy out of their defensive positions. I'm also unsure what the actual moral difference is of using a bomb to kill someone vs a chemical , etc?

Historical memory of chemical weapons use is long. 1.3 million people were casualties of phosgene gas in WWI. Chemical weapons use was very limited in WWII (some use in Ethiopia, China, and the Bari disaster), but many people today would remember the horrific use of Tabun, Sarin, and phosgene gas in the 1980s Iran-Iraq war. Tens of thousands of dead Iranians and Kurds and many more tens of thousands disabled during and after the war from exposure. The stories are horrible.

WP is not banned because of its "primary use" as a screening material and only "secondary use" as anti-personnel weapon whereas Tabun and Sarin have no other battlefield uses except as anti-personnel weapons. I remember when I was a kid, for 9 years, I attended a monthly meeting of WWII vets and one of them described the aftermath of what happens when a WP grenade is thrown into the turret of a German tank. You can imagine what it does in such a confined space. Death by WP has to be one of the worst deaths possible because if you get enough exposure and don't die from the burns, you eventually die from the organ failure.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

This thread is now closed.

Thanks to everyone who shared their perspectives on this conflict, however ultimately, this is a business forum. This thread really hasn't done anything to create or foster a community environment other than elevate forum metrics like posts and views, create derision, and other things that don't really matter in the purpose of this forum.

I have not read any post in here in 2 weeks, and frankly, wasn't planning on it. Certainly there are other places and forums where anyone can share their views on this war.

I hope the people who were active in this thread find something more valuable on the forum that is more relevant to their lives.

 

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