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BOOK The Surrender Experiment: My Journey into Life's Perfection - by Michael A. Singer

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What is the "true" surrender? (See post #6)

  • Move as you originally reasoned.

    Votes: 8 88.9%
  • Stay put and pay the tax.

    Votes: 1 11.1%

  • Total voters
    9

MetalGear

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  • I am almost done with this book and wanted to start a discussion about it
  • The author talks about going with the flow of life and making the best of it
  • There is a natural tension when I read stuff like this because it seems counter-intuitive to how an entrepreneur should act
 

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MTF

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This book should be discussed along with The Untethered Soul because otherwise it IMO doesn't have enough context (the author himself said that this book was written to show how the approach from the previous book works in real life).

I'm now going through his course (Living from a Place of Surrender) which is meant to expand on the book and help practice it in everyday life.
 

MetalGear

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I got both books, which order do you recommend other people read them in?
 

Tiago

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I’ve read both books and done his course. They are enormously helpful in life.

What do you feel is counter-intuitive?
 

MTF

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I got both books, which order do you recommend other people read them in?

I preferred reading them in order. The Surrender Experiment is more of an autobiography showing how it works rather than how to do it discussed in The Untethered Soul.
 

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Loved the book which had a ton of entrepreneurial angles (later in the book).

There is a natural tension when I read stuff like this because it seems counter-intuitive to how an entrepreneur should act

Very true, but there is also some subjectivity to what constitutes "surrender."

Just to give you an example ...

Arizona just raised state income taxes by 77% on high income earners.

Before this law was passed, I was already considering moving out of state. However once I learned about this law potentially passing, I reasoned, "If the law passes, I will move"-- I'll let "life" decide.

Sure enough, it passed. So now I'm moving.

So one might say I let "whatever happens" dictate what I do.

The other subjective aspect of this is to posit that NOT MOVING is to surrender, to stay put and pay the tax.

All in all, you really don't know which choice is the true "surrender".

Surrendering does not mean to give up, or to relinquish control. It means to CONSIDER what life is throwing at you as a possible alternative.
 

SteveO

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Loved the book which had a ton of entrepreneurial angles (later in the book).



Very true, but there is also some subjectivity to what constitutes "surrender."

Just to give you an example ...

Arizona just raised state income taxes by 77% on high income earners.

Before this law was passed, I was already considering moving out of state. However once I learned about this law potentially passing, I reasoned, "If the law passes, I will move." (I'll let "life"decide)

Sure enough, it passed. So now I'm moving.

So one might say I let "whatever happens" dictate what I do.

The other subjective aspect of this is to posit that NOT MOVING is to surrender, to stay put and pay the tax.

All in all, you really don't know which choice is the true "surrender".

Surrendering does not mean to give up, or to relinquish control. It means to CONSIDER what life is throwing at you and a possible alternative.
I didn't realize that we had such a similar thought process on this subject.
 

MJ DeMarco

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I didn't realize that we had such a similar thought process on this subject.

On the taxes, moving, surrender, or all of the above? ;)
 

SteveO

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On the taxes, moving, surrender, or all of the above? ;)
Surrender.

My view is that our inner selves are the universe and that it is ourselves that makes certain things happen. Along the same line that you stated.

My taxes will not change as long as I own a golf course in this state. But the alignment of surrendering which led me here was very real. My inner self (or universe) allowed many different things to happen in harmony.

I don't fight those things.
 

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Surrender.

My view is that our inner selves are the universe and that it is ourselves that makes certain things happen. Along the same line that you stated.

I believe that as well. Every “negative” experience, memory or rumination is created by our very own mind. It’s not that “external” things don’t happen to us. They do. It’s just that the anger, sadness or fear etc. is a creation of our own mind. Hence projecting hatred and anger is an impossibility.

I believe in Spinoza philosophy. My “mind” is a “mini” temporal mind that imitates the mind of god. A mind that is independent of its environment and knows that everything follows the laws of nature.

“God’s mind(my mind) acts by the necessity of his own nature constrained by none”- Ethics
 

Andy Black

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Interesting. I may go buy that first book @MTF mentioned.

I often go with the flow rather than fight it. In my mind I liken it to travelling at pace down a river - I have control over whether I go left or right and I’ll move faster and with less effort if I work with the river. And yeah, it can feel counter intuitive, especially if we judge ourselves by how hard we’re paddling (aka how “busy” we are).

I had a wee moment yesterday where I “let” external forces decide. Do I stay on platform X or migrate to platform Y? As I was contemplating that question someone signed up to platform X, and someone else upgraded their membership on platform X. That sealed it for me - I’ll move faster in the part of the river I’m already in.
 

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Andy Black

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On another note... People who know me say I’m rarely panicked. I believe that’s down to reading books like “The Power of Positive Thinking for Young People” when I was about 13. In those books I learned there’s muliple ways of looking at situations. Even if we can’t find a silver lining it’s good to know that people can react differently to the same situation - which means the reaction is an internal thing and the event itself is almost neutral. (Badly explained but hopefully you get the gist.)
 

MetalGear

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I am listening to the Untethered Soul as I make dinner and I get why @MTF says it is more practical
 

SPM_ENT

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This book should be discussed along with The Untethered Soul because otherwise it IMO doesn't have enough context (the author himself said that this book was written to show how the approach from the previous book works in real life).

I'm now going through his course (Living from a Place of Surrender) which is meant to expand on the book and help practice it in everyday life.
Woah I didn't know that!
tumblr_inline_pdku97Tuwx1qftdvd_540.gif
I really enjoyed the Surrender Experiment after reluctantly picking it up. Ordering The Untethered Soul and adding it to the pile now.
 

MJ DeMarco

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I've selfishly added a POLL to this thread regarding my "surrendering choice" as I posted in #6, curious to think what the other readers of this book think about what the true surrender choice is.

Please DO NOT vote unless you've read Singer's work.

Feel free to continue to discuss these books, I get the feeling I will be bumping this thread often.
 

mon_fi

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I've selfishly added a POLL to this thread regarding my "surrendering choice" as I posted in #6, curious to think what the other readers of this book think about what the true surrender choice is.

Please DO NOT vote unless you've read Singer's work.

Feel free to continue to discuss these books, I get the feeling I will be bumping this thread often.

I didn't read Singer's work, but related to your question about taxes, if a burglar comes during the day to steal your TV, will you start shooting at him, or "let it go because this is life?"

Letting go has limits.
 

MTF

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After reading his two books and watching one interview, I'm going through Michael's course Living from a Place of Surrender. I have 9 pages of notes and I'm only halfway through. Also plan to go through all his lecture series.

So I'm yet to understand everything well. Having said that, in response to this:

I've selfishly added a POLL to this thread regarding my "surrendering choice" as I posted in #6, curious to think what the other readers of this book think about what the true surrender choice is.

Please DO NOT vote unless you've read Singer's work.

Feel free to continue to discuss these books, I get the feeling I will be bumping this thread often.

It's a tough one. Maybe I'll have a better response when I finish the course. For now, my understanding is this:

Surrender is about not clinging to good stuff (your likes) and resisting bad stuff (your dislikes). It's not resignation, though. It's embracing the reality that's there without making your entire life revolve around your likes (seeking more of it at the expense of enjoying the moment you were given) and dislikes (trying to avoid anything that triggers bad memories).

So according to this, as long as you accepted the tax hike as something impersonal over which you have no control, surrender isn't about the choice to move or not. You performed an act of surrender already by not resisting the tax hike mentally. NOT surrendering would be letting it poison you - constantly complaining about it, telling everyone how unfair it is, how stupid it is, how it's not to your liking, how you can't be happy unless they repeal it, and generally speaking, wasting energy trying to change something you can't.

Michael A. Singer emphasizes that ultimately we're here to experience reality. That's what our consciousness is all about: experiencing reality. The mind is a tool that helps do that (but it usually ruins our lives which is the entire point of learning how to surrender through having no preference).

He says that every single experience makes you richer. Every different experience - positive or negative - is thus of equal value as long as you accept it as it is, without clinging to it or resisting it.

Following this train of thought, all things being equal, the more different experiences you have, the better. So moving would be, according to this, a better choice for you because it will let you experience new things. Meanwhile, staying could be an act of clinging (staying there just because of nostalgia and closing yourself to the value of current and future moments while you're focused on clinging to that old Arizona that no longer exists). BUT if you're moving ONLY because you're running away from the tax hike, then isn't your dislike running your life? Then it's possible you haven't surrendered.

I hope I didn't make it too confusing.

But this is just what I'm speculating right now. Maybe the rest of the course will make it clearer for me.
 

MTF

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I didn't read Singer's work, but related to your question about taxes, if a burglar comes during the day to steal your TV, will you start shooting at him, or "let it go because this is life?"

Letting go has limits.

This is not letting go. Letting go is processing the experience as it is (which would also include defending yourself) and then moving on.

A person unable to let go will, after that burglary, be forever afraid of burglars, will keep 50 guns in their house, will be immediately filled with fear upon seeing a hat similar to the one the burglar wore, etc. One experience, improperly processed (in other words: the one you didn't let go), ruins your entire life.

A person who was able to let go would be free of all that junk and wouldn't live in fear. For this person, it would be like passing a tree - they saw it, they processed it, it's gone.

Michael gives a great example of a person whose ex-husband's name was Ben. Years later, every Ben still bothers that person because it reminds her of her ex-husband. So in essence, she took one Ben and multiplied it by millions (or however many Bens are around the world) and now every Ben brings up bad memories. All because she still hasn't truly divorced him.

This is what letting go is. This is what surrender is. Not letting the bus run you over because you didn't see it and decided "okay, since I didn't see it, it means life is telling me today is the day I die."
 

Black_Dragon43

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I've selfishly added a POLL to this thread regarding my "surrendering choice" as I posted in #6, curious to think what the other readers of this book think about what the true surrender choice is.

Please DO NOT vote unless you've read Singer's work.

Feel free to continue to discuss these books, I get the feeling I will be bumping this thread often.
I haven’t voted, because I feel that it’s a decision that is ultimately up to you and only you can know which the surrender choice is. I haven’t read this book “The Surrender Experiment” but I have read “Untethered Soul” and also listened to “Untethered Soul at Work”.

As far as I understand Singer, what he means by “surrender” is similar to what he means by “letting go”. In both cases it’s about an attitude of the soul towards what is happening. It’s surrendering the need for obsessing over what is happening, being free of the psychological hangups and self-blaming that often arise when we’re put in difficult situations. So letting go isn’t about a specific set of actions or non-actions... but rather about how we mentally relate to those actions or non-actions. To illustrate:

Suppose you’re sitting in a bus next to a drunkard and it annoys you. If there is an emtpy seat close by, letting go doesn’t mean that you go on sitting there and being annoyed. You get up, and move without further thought. But suppose now that there is no other seat available... in this case letting go is staying where you are but at peace with the situation, not obsessing about being next to the drunkard and continuing to fuel your feeling of annoyance.

So thats why in this situation you mentioned I feel letting go can be either choice, and what it is depends on the person making it. Will you stay where you currently are, and always think that you should have moved and avoided the tax? If so, then that’s not letting go. Will you move and start thinking you’ve made the wrong choice, and you like the new place less? Then that wouldn’t be letting go.

My 2c.
 

MJ DeMarco

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So according to this, as long as you accepted the tax hike as something impersonal over which you have no control, surrender isn't about the choice to move or not. You performed an act of surrender already by not resisting the tax hike mentally. NOT surrendering would be letting it poison you - constantly complaining about it, telling everyone how unfair it is, how stupid it is, how it's not to your liking, how you can't be happy unless they repeal it, and generally speaking, wasting energy trying to change something you can't.

Great clarification ... I'm almost there in letting it go, maybe 90%. It's that 10% that is still working its way out of the system.
 

MetalGear

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  • Loving all of the replies to what "surrender" means
  • When I don't "surrender", I personally start to feel it as knots in my muscles - lower back, neck, and quads
  • Today I surrendered:
    • Geopolitical situations all over the world...
    • The "market" and how it is doing...
    • Impostor syndrome...
  • Today I executed and enjoyed what was in my control
    • It felt like running an engine with new oil vs no oil
    • I'm about halfway done with the Untethered Soul and am amazed at his explanation of the "energy body"
 

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Black_Dragon43

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People who know me say I’m rarely panicked. I believe that’s down to reading books like “The Power of Positive Thinking for Young People” when I was about 13. In those books I learned there’s muliple ways of looking at situations. Even if we can’t find a silver lining it’s good to know that people can react differently to the same situation - which means the reaction is an internal thing and the event itself is almost neutral. (Badly explained but hopefully you get the gist.)
That’s interesting @Andy Black! For myself, I definitely agree with your observation that the reaction to an event is internal and the event is really neutral in the end. I sometimes do find it difficult to make that observation real for myself - I understand it rationally, but emotionally I may still worry about an event for example. Does that ever happen to you, or how do you go about handling it?

In my case, the practices I learned from Singer and other authors help me implement this insight by letting go and bringing my emotions along with my rational mind if that makes sense.
 

Andy Black

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That’s interesting @Andy Black! For myself, I definitely agree with your observation that the reaction to an event is internal and the event is really neutral in the end. I sometimes do find it difficult to make that observation real for myself - I understand it rationally, but emotionally I may still worry about an event for example. Does that ever happen to you, or how do you go about handling it?

In my case, the practices I learned from Singer and other authors help me implement this insight by letting go and bringing my emotions along with my rational mind if that makes sense.
I've not read any of the books, but this is something my dad used to say:
It's kinda the same with worrying. Why worry about things you have no control over, or aren't going to do anything about? Harder said than done, and a bit of "worry" is necessary to spur us into action. But if we've done the best we can (or want to) then that should be enough.

Our higher brain sometimes has to take over. This was obvious when riding motorbikes. I might start panicking that I'm not going to make the bend. Panicking would get me to fixate on the ditch or reaching for the brakes. Instead I'd have to force myself to look round the bend and lean into it and maybe even accelerate. It almost starts with forcing myself to breathe. I'd often find I'm holding my breath when going round icy roundabouts on a motorbike. This causes my shoulders to freeze, which isn't good for steering. The first step is often to remember to breathe (if you've time to do that instead of react that is... there was a time I'd have hit a cliff-face if I'd decided to breathe instead of tear my eyes away from impending death and force myself to look round the bend).

Not sure that helped.


View: https://youtu.be/dQsDRGzwuug
 

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All in all, you really don't know which choice is the true "surrender".

Surrendering does not mean to give up, or to relinquish control. It means to CONSIDER what life is throwing at you as a possible alternative.
I too struggled to understand true "surrender". In chapter 16, 3:30 min into the book, Michael explained it and how he did it:

"Surrender, what an amazing and powerful word. It often engender with weakness and cowardice. In my case, it requires all the strengths I have to be brave enough to follow the invisibles into the unknown....It's not Surrender gave me clarity to where I was going....but Surrender did give me clarity in one essential area: my personal preferences of like and dislike are not going to guide my life. By Surrendering the whole, those powerful forces have on me, I was allowing my life to be guided by much more powerful force: Life Itself.

Practice of Surrender... in two very distinct steps: First, you let go of the personal reactions to like and dislike that formed inside your mind and heart, and Second with the result and sense in clarity, you simply look to see what's being asked of you by the situation unfold in front of you. What will you be doing if you weren't influenced by the reaction of like and dislike? Following that deeper guidance will lead you into a very different direction from your preferences would have lead you."
 
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MetalGear

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Some favorite quotes so far:
  1. ‘How do you free yourself? In the deepest sense, you free yourself by finding yourself. You are not the pain you feel, nor are you the part that periodically stresses out. None of these disturbances have anything to do with you. You are the one who notices these things.’
  2. ‘If you’re willing to be objective and watch all your thoughts, you’ll see that the vast majority of them have no relevance. They have no effect on anything or anybody, except you. They are simply making you feel better or worse about what is going on now, what has gone on in the past, or what might go on in the future.’
  3. ‘One of the most important areas requiring change is how we solve our personal problems. We normally attempt to solve our inner disturbances by protecting ourselves. Real transformation begins when you embrace your problems as agents of growth.’
 

MTF

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I finished the course. It's way, way, way, way better laid out than his books. Only after finishing the course I finally understand the entire meaning behind surrender.

Along with the free short course and his interview with Tony Robbins, my notes are over 16k words long which translates to roughly 65 pages of notes LOL.

Now—of course in addition to practicing his teachings 24/7—I'm going to listen to The Untethered Soul at Work which could be pretty relevant to this forum. Then, his The Untethered Soul lectures. Then, his new lectures Going Deeper.

I'll be his walking encyclopedia once I finish consuming all his content and taking notes. :happy:
 

redshift

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I finished the course. It's way, way, way, way better laid out than his books. Only after finishing the course I finally understand the entire meaning behind surrender.

Along with the free short course and his interview with Tony Robbins, my notes are over 16k words long which translates to roughly 65 pages of notes LOL.

Now—of course in addition to practicing his teachings 24/7—I'm going to listen to The Untethered Soul at Work which could be pretty relevant to this forum. Then, his The Untethered Soul lectures. Then, his new lectures Going Deeper.

I'll be his walking encyclopedia once I finish consuming all his content and taking notes. :happy:

lol, don't forget to buy the Untethered Soul card deck, since you are such a fan :p Basically has a daily quote from the book to meditate upon. I found them pretty useful and have cycled through the deck a few times.

Also, agreed - The course is the really well done and worth repeating multiple times. I actually had a good understanding of surrender after reading the surrender experiment, but then untethered soul confused me a bit because he talks about a bunch of different paths in there. That's why I recommend surrender experiment to people since it gets the point across and has a great story. But doing the course makes it all clear as you mention. Wasn't aware of the 'Going deeper' stuff, will check it out.

Before this law was passed, I was already considering moving out of state. However once I learned about this law potentially passing, I reasoned, "If the law passes, I will move"-- I'll let "life" decide.

Yes, this would be my reasoning as well. Michael talked about making a similar decision in the book as well. I think it was when he was deciding whether to go through with one of the mergers or not.
 
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socaldude

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Sorry for the side tangent, but some supplemental material to Singer's work I've found helpful (and I'm only a few chapters in) is the work by David R. Hawkins..

Haha I have two of his books and the writing is difficult to understand. The consciousness hierarchy and points system is confusing. LOL

But it is intuitive.
 
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