Random Chat, Thoughts, Posts, and/or Rants Thread

[WillHurtDontCare]

My favourite one is the "guilt" tactic in which the media brainwashes those around you. I was told today "you're so selfish for not getting the VAXCClNE". Lmfao. Excuse me? Why wasn't I selfish for not getting the flu shot last year?

It doesn't even stop transmission.

View attachment 39419

Pretty much. A lot of people have battered wife syndrome with the government.

 

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[MoneyDoc]

It's like an echo chamber of a different kind in here. I don't consume much media, so I don't really know "what's out there" about this. But I do have friends that work in hospitals and I trust what they tell me.

The tough part is our hospital system isn't designed to handle large influxes of people, such as what happens during an outbreak. Hospitals are getting more C0VlD cases again. At least where I live. There are numerous concerns about this, running out of ventilators, running out of space, working long hours, making mistakes and tough choices, etc.

Also concerning is this strain is more contagious and carries a higher viral load. Even with 50% vaccination rate, the # of cases is increasing roughly as fast as the previous two spikes (again, at least in my area).

Does it require more than half a brain to noodle this one out?

Yes the death rate isn't as severe. Thank God. If that really is what the media is pushing, then that's poor messaging at best.

But there are real concerns here that the people on the ground are expressing.

I wish different sides of this debate would at least try to see the other side. Oh government just wants to keep us down! Come on...

I completely understand the argument that mRNA is experimental and someone doesn't want to put it in their body. I wish "they" would understand that and not vilify people who feel this way.

But I also get that the more unvaxinated, unquarantined people run around, the more likely it is that our hospitals fill up, potentially causing rationing of essential services. I wish the other "they" would understand that and not vilify people who are trying to point out this basic fact.

When it is raining, please don't drive your usual speed. This is common sense right? If cops need to crack down on people speeding in rainstorms will we cry government overreach? Luckily we all mostly do a pretty good job of this.

But the ones who don't should face consequences, right?

So when your area is experiencing an outbreak, please do your best to not spread it. If you don't know how to accomplish that, educate yourself on the best practices.

How is asking that unreasonable? How is that not common sense? Why do we, as a culture, not treat our fellow man with that kind of respect innately? Why is any suggestion of "think about others" met with an instant "don't tread on my freedoms" refrain by certain people?

And what do we call people who believe they should enjoy unfettered freedom at any cost, free of any consequences?

Teenagers, that's what.

Lastly, if your best reason for not getting a VAXCClNE is simply "I don't wanna", well, sorry, but you might be selfish. Self centered? Self focused? A teenager?

Maybe you have better reasons, but I'm not a mind reader. I only know what you wrote. The media didn't brainwash me, your words clued me in.

I'm not saying you are a teenager or selfish, I don't know you, and even if you are I'm not trying to judge you for it. But if I hear duck quack, I'll think it's dubious if someone tells me it ain't a freaking duck. If the shoe fits, wear it homie.

Anyways, just offering a different view since you did ask the question:



Side note... I was called selfish for at least the last 8 years for not getting a flu shot. "Don't you want to keep the kids safe?"

You wanna talk guilt trips and manipulation? Yeah, I could share some stories. So I do get where you're coming from.

But after a decade of talking to people in city planning and public health and more generally the medical industry, I also get where some of the opposing view comes from too. Those people face really tough choices. It's a thankless rock vs hard place kind of life.

From where I sit, neither side has an monopoly on the truth and both sides have good, valid points. Both sides should reach out and talk to the other more.

Nobody solves anything by complaining.

Anyways, hope that helps somebody today.

Fair enough and I’m not even going to argue with that. Like I said, I’m not anti-vaccine and I don’t believe the virus is “fake”.

 

[Matt Sun]

It's like an echo chamber of a different kind in here. I don't consume much media, so I don't really know "what's out there" about this. But I do have friends that work in hospitals and I trust what they tell me.

The tough part is our hospital system isn't designed to handle large influxes of people, such as what happens during an outbreak. Hospitals are getting more C0VlD cases again. At least where I live. There are numerous concerns about this, running out of ventilators, running out of space, working long hours, making mistakes and tough choices, etc.

Also concerning is this strain is more contagious and carries a higher viral load. Even with 50% vaccination rate, the # of cases is increasing roughly as fast as the previous two spikes (again, at least in my area).

Does it require more than half a brain to noodle this one out?

Yes the death rate isn't as severe. Thank God. If that really is what the media is pushing, then that's poor messaging at best.

But there are real concerns here that the people on the ground are expressing.

I wish different sides of this debate would at least try to see the other side. Oh government just wants to keep us down! Come on...

I completely understand the argument that mRNA is experimental and someone doesn't want to put it in their body. I wish "they" would understand that and not vilify people who feel this way.

But I also get that the more unvaxinated, unquarantined people run around, the more likely it is that our hospitals fill up, potentially causing rationing of essential services. I wish the other "they" would understand that and not vilify people who are trying to point out this basic fact.

When it is raining, please don't drive your usual speed. This is common sense right? If cops need to crack down on people speeding in rainstorms will we cry government overreach? Luckily we all mostly do a pretty good job of this.

But the ones who don't should face consequences, right?

So when your area is experiencing an outbreak, please do your best to not spread it. If you don't know how to accomplish that, educate yourself on the best practices.

How is asking that unreasonable? How is that not common sense? Why do we, as a culture, not treat our fellow man with that kind of respect innately? Why is any suggestion of "think about others" met with an instant "don't tread on my freedoms" refrain by certain people?

And what do we call people who believe they should enjoy unfettered freedom at any cost, free of any consequences?

Teenagers, that's what.

Lastly, if your best reason for not getting a VAXCClNE is simply "I don't wanna", well, sorry, but you might be selfish. Self centered? Self focused? A teenager?

Maybe you have better reasons, but I'm not a mind reader. I only know what you wrote. The media didn't brainwash me, your words clued me in.

I'm not saying you are a teenager or selfish, I don't know you, and even if you are I'm not trying to judge you for it. But if I hear duck quack, I'll think it's dubious if someone tells me it ain't a freaking duck. If the shoe fits, wear it homie.

Anyways, just offering a different view since you did ask the question:



Side note... I was called selfish for at least the last 8 years for not getting a flu shot. "Don't you want to keep the kids safe?"

You wanna talk guilt trips and manipulation? Yeah, I could share some stories. So I do get where you're coming from.

But after a decade of talking to people in city planning and public health and more generally the medical industry, I also get where some of the opposing view comes from too. Those people face really tough choices. It's a thankless rock vs hard place kind of life.

From where I sit, neither side has an monopoly on the truth and both sides have good, valid points. Both sides should reach out and talk to the other more.

Nobody solves anything by complaining.

Anyways, hope that helps somebody today.

You expect me to get in my veins a product from manufacturers that had paid hundreds of millions of dollars in damages, cause people literally died because of their products. And I can't know the ingredients. And they can't have liability if I'm harmed. The vax not even fully approved, but emergency approved. And they skipped animal trials because so many where dying. Ok.

And if I don't do it I'm "selfish". Well, what are you then ? A very just and loving person ? I'd rather be selfish than as "respectful" as you are.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

It's like an echo chamber of a different kind in here.

Wow, how dare us.

Have you visited Reddit lately? Google? CNBC? Wapo? CNN? Fox? Apple News? And 99% of the rest of the web that hasn't been squashed by censorship?

How dare we talk about an alternative viewpoint not in line with "lazy" media spooned to the masses.

It's like an echo chamber of a different kind in here. I don't consume much media, so I don't really know "what's out there" about this. But I do have friends that work in hospitals and I trust what they tell me.

The tough part is our hospital system isn't designed to handle large influxes of people, such as what happens during an outbreak. Hospitals are getting more C0VlD cases again. At least where I live. There are numerous concerns about this, running out of ventilators, running out of space, working long hours, making mistakes and tough choices, etc.

Also concerning is this strain is more contagious and carries a higher viral load. Even with 50% vaccination rate, the # of cases is increasing roughly as fast as the previous two spikes (again, at least in my area).

Does it require more than half a brain to noodle this one out?

Yes the death rate isn't as severe. Thank God. If that really is what the media is pushing, then that's poor messaging at best.

But there are real concerns here that the people on the ground are expressing.

I wish different sides of this debate would at least try to see the other side. Oh government just wants to keep us down! Come on...

I completely understand the argument that mRNA is experimental and someone doesn't want to put it in their body. I wish "they" would understand that and not vilify people who feel this way.

But I also get that the more unvaxinated, unquarantined people run around, the more likely it is that our hospitals fill up, potentially causing rationing of essential services. I wish the other "they" would understand that and not vilify people who are trying to point out this basic fact.

When it is raining, please don't drive your usual speed. This is common sense right? If cops need to crack down on people speeding in rainstorms will we cry government overreach? Luckily we all mostly do a pretty good job of this.

But the ones who don't should face consequences, right?

So when your area is experiencing an outbreak, please do your best to not spread it. If you don't know how to accomplish that, educate yourself on the best practices.

How is asking that unreasonable? How is that not common sense? Why do we, as a culture, not treat our fellow man with that kind of respect innately? Why is any suggestion of "think about others" met with an instant "don't tread on my freedoms" refrain by certain people?

And what do we call people who believe they should enjoy unfettered freedom at any cost, free of any consequences?

Teenagers, that's what.

Lastly, if your best reason for not getting a VAXCClNE is simply "I don't wanna", well, sorry, but you might be selfish. Self centered? Self focused? A teenager?

Maybe you have better reasons, but I'm not a mind reader. I only know what you wrote. The media didn't brainwash me, your words clued me in.

I'm not saying you are a teenager or selfish, I don't know you, and even if you are I'm not trying to judge you for it. But if I hear duck quack, I'll think it's dubious if someone tells me it ain't a freaking duck. If the shoe fits, wear it homie.

Anyways, just offering a different view since you did ask the question:



Side note... I was called selfish for at least the last 8 years for not getting a flu shot. "Don't you want to keep the kids safe?"

You wanna talk guilt trips and manipulation? Yeah, I could share some stories. So I do get where you're coming from.

But after a decade of talking to people in city planning and public health and more generally the medical industry, I also get where some of the opposing view comes from too. Those people face really tough choices. It's a thankless rock vs hard place kind of life.

From where I sit, neither side has an monopoly on the truth and both sides have good, valid points. Both sides should reach out and talk to the other more.

Nobody solves anything by complaining.

Anyways, hope that helps somebody today.

Spurious logic...
Slippery slopes...

There's so many logical fallacies here that it isn't worth responding.

Guess I'm a just a selfish impetuous teenager for having an education beyond the convenient media, and for listening to the medical ppl/scientists I TRUST, not the ones on pharma boards or people who are lifelong bureaucrats, or one degree away from being one.

I'd rather be selfish than as "respectful" as you are.

The most charitable people in the world are only charitable with other people's money and time.

 

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[BizyDad]

You expect me to get in my veins a product from manufacturers that had paid hundreds of millions of dollars in damages, cause people literally died because of their products. And I can't know the ingredients. And they can't have liability if I'm harmed. The vax not even fully approved, but emergency approved. And they skipped animal trials because so many where dying. Ok.

And if I don't do it I'm "selfish". Well, what are you then ? A very just and loving person ? I'd rather be selfish than as "respectful" as you are.

Expect? I don't expect you to do that. And I didn't call you selfish. I said if the best reason you got is "I don't wanna" then you might be selfish. Might.

But that doesn't describe you so why are you coming at me bro?

If the shoe fits homie, good for you. I said that people have good reasons for not wanting the vaccine and it sounds like you are one.

I also said "they" should not vilify people like you. Please notice I said they as opposed to I, because I'm not trying to say either side 100% right or wrong. You are putting words in my mouth and vilifying me that is perfectly illustrating the problem I am trying to point out.

My point was that everyone should stop being so incredibly... Angry? Judgemental? It solves nothing.

I get where you are coming from.

Can you get where I am coming from?

 

[Itizn]

Question for the long term contributors, do you think it's helpful to start a progress/execution thread when just getting started or do you find it's a distraction?

I'm trying to determine if it's a good idea or will provide false dopamine. Thanks.

I'm not a long time contributor and everyone has a different working style.

But I think starting an execution thread, at bare minimum, offers a lot of value 6-12 months down the road, assuming you stay on the same path.

Sometimes I go back to my original thread and see how naïve and closeminded I was about the problems I was looking to solve in my industry.

I recommend starting one but not feeling compelled to "feed" it all the time.

 

[BizyDad]

Wow, how dare us.

Have you visited Reddit lately? Google? CNBC? Wapo? CNN? Fox? Apple News? And 99% of the rest of the web that hasn't been squashed by censorship?

How dare we talk about an alternative viewpoint not in line with "lazy" media spooned to the masses.



Spurious logic...
Slippery slopes...

There's so many logical fallacies here that it isn't worth responding.

Guess I'm a just a selfish impetuous teenager for having an education beyond the convenient media, and for listening to the medical ppl/scientists I TRUST, not the ones on pharma boards or people who are lifelong bureaucrats, or one degree away from being one.



The most charitable people in the world are only charitable with other people's money and time.

I refer you to my previous comment.

And I usually want this place to be better than reddit/cnn etc, no I haven't visited those sites lately, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.

I said teenagers believe in unfettered freedom without consequences. That doesn't sound like you either, so no, I didn't call you that.

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

It's like an echo chamber of a different kind in here. I don't consume much media, so I don't really know "what's out there" about this. But I do have friends that work in hospitals and I trust what they tell me.

The tough part is our hospital system isn't designed to handle large influxes of people, such as what happens during an outbreak. Hospitals are getting more C0VlD cases again. At least where I live. There are numerous concerns about this, running out of ventilators, running out of space, working long hours, making mistakes and tough choices, etc.

Also concerning is this strain is more contagious and carries a higher viral load. Even with 50% vaccination rate, the # of cases is increasing roughly as fast as the previous two spikes (again, at least in my area).

Does it require more than half a brain to noodle this one out?

Yes the death rate isn't as severe. Thank God. If that really is what the media is pushing, then that's poor messaging at best.

But there are real concerns here that the people on the ground are expressing.

I wish different sides of this debate would at least try to see the other side. Oh government just wants to keep us down! Come on...

I completely understand the argument that mRNA is experimental and someone doesn't want to put it in their body. I wish "they" would understand that and not vilify people who feel this way.

But I also get that the more unvaxinated, unquarantined people run around, the more likely it is that our hospitals fill up, potentially causing rationing of essential services. I wish the other "they" would understand that and not vilify people who are trying to point out this basic fact.

When it is raining, please don't drive your usual speed. This is common sense right? If cops need to crack down on people speeding in rainstorms will we cry government overreach? Luckily we all mostly do a pretty good job of this.

But the ones who don't should face consequences, right?

So when your area is experiencing an outbreak, please do your best to not spread it. If you don't know how to accomplish that, educate yourself on the best practices.

How is asking that unreasonable? How is that not common sense? Why do we, as a culture, not treat our fellow man with that kind of respect innately? Why is any suggestion of "think about others" met with an instant "don't tread on my freedoms" refrain by certain people?

And what do we call people who believe they should enjoy unfettered freedom at any cost, free of any consequences?

Teenagers, that's what.

Lastly, if your best reason for not getting a VAXCClNE is simply "I don't wanna", well, sorry, but you might be selfish. Self centered? Self focused? A teenager?

Maybe you have better reasons, but I'm not a mind reader. I only know what you wrote. The media didn't brainwash me, your words clued me in.

I'm not saying you are a teenager or selfish, I don't know you, and even if you are I'm not trying to judge you for it. But if I hear duck quack, I'll think it's dubious if someone tells me it ain't a freaking duck. If the shoe fits, wear it homie.

Anyways, just offering a different view since you did ask the question:



Side note... I was called selfish for at least the last 8 years for not getting a flu shot. "Don't you want to keep the kids safe?"

You wanna talk guilt trips and manipulation? Yeah, I could share some stories. So I do get where you're coming from.

But after a decade of talking to people in city planning and public health and more generally the medical industry, I also get where some of the opposing view comes from too. Those people face really tough choices. It's a thankless rock vs hard place kind of life.

From where I sit, neither side has an monopoly on the truth and both sides have good, valid points. Both sides should reach out and talk to the other more.

Nobody solves anything by complaining.

Anyways, hope that helps somebody today.

Thank God there is an echo chamber here that is different from ALL OF THE OTHER ECHO CHAMBERS.

People talking about their freedoms?? That's bad?

Look, you can get a vaccine without supporting a stamp on the forehead of every American complete with jail time for the unvaxinated and refusing service and the ability to eat (i.e. forced starvation) by denying access to grocery stores.

That's what the real argument is about.

And calling those who want to keep their liberty "teenagers?" Give me a break.

Why do you think this country was started in the first place? Because a bunch of guys wanted to follow orders from a higher authority?

Once you lose freedom, it's damn near impossible for you to ever get it back. There is little as precious as freedom.

 

[Matt Sun]

Expect? I don't expect you to do that. And I didn't call you selfish. I said if the best reason you got is "I don't wanna" then you might be selfish. Might.

But that doesn't describe you so why are you coming at me bro?

If the shoe fits homie, good for you. I said that people have good reasons for not wanting the VAXCClNE and it sounds like you are one.

I also said "they" should not vilify people like you. Please notice I said they as opposed to I, because I'm not trying to say either side 100% right or wrong. You are putting words in my mouth and vilifying me that is perfectly illustrating the problem I am trying to point out.

My point was that everyone should stop being so incredibly... Angry? Judgemental? It solves nothing.

I get where you are coming from.

Can you get where I am coming from?

Ok I don't mean to fight or anything. Just that calling people teenagers for refusing a dubious medical treatment is really odd... There is a million good reasons for refusing it, the most obvious I just wrote. I hope I just showed you that one refuses this not out of stupid rebellion but serious research and reflection.
In my country there are certain states I can't go in because I don't comply with this vax like I'm a farmer's cow. It is a maddening thing actually, and sad. My best friend just got the damn vax in order to travel, not because she really wanted it or trusted it (she doesn't). She was very sad after complying. I have been kind of sad too. We are in coercion stage right now. "For our own good".

There is people in the unions saying unvaxed workers shouldn't get a salary (good thing that thanks to MJ I will never have nor need a salary).

 

[BizyDad]

Thank God there is an echo chamber here that is different from ALL OF THE OTHER ECHO CHAMBERS.

Ok, I mean that's fair. I don't go to those echo chambers generally, so I'm just talking about here.

And calling those who want to keep their liberty "teenagers?" Give me a break.

I didn't call all lovers of liberty teenagers. Please read what I actually wrote.

Why do you think this country was started in the first place? Because a bunch of guys wanted to follow orders from a higher authority?

Those guys didn't believe in unfettered freedom without consequences. Neither do I. Do you?

And my saying that, should not be construed that I'm in the camp of everybody should get mandatory vaccination.

That's my problem with all the echo chambers. Everybody assumes that people from other echo chambers are saying things or believing things that they're not. It's pure vilification.

This country will never get better, this world will never get better, until reasonable people become reasonable when faced with criticism.

-----

Since my comments are being taken out of context let me see if I could say this another way.

There are a ton of reasons that I will respect for people not wanting to get the vaccine.

"I just don't wanna" isn't one of them.

Think about all the noobs that come on here and try and tell us why they can't do this or can't do that.

Think about how we would react if they gave us the reason I just don't wanna.

This is no different.

And again, I'm pretty sure MoneyDoc had better reason he didn't articulate. Which is why I didn't actually call him anything. I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Which he also seemed to give me. Cooler heads prevailed. That was encouraging to see. Reasonable people having different views and it wasn't villification.

The world needs more of that.

There is a million good reasons for refusing it, the most obvious I just wrote. I hope I just showed you that one refuses this not out of stupid rebellion bu

I agree fully.

But I do know people that have refused out of just blind rebellion. And I think that specific attitude is ridiculous.

There is people in the unions saying unvaxed workers shouldn't get a salary

That is another example of the kind of vilification I'm arguing against. That's wrong too.

But you know, it's a free country so those unions and corporations have a right to require this, right?

Well sure, but I believe there should be consequences for that too. Because it ain't right to take away a person's livelihood over this.

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

Those guys didn't believe in unfettered freedom without consequences. Neither do I. Do you?

They did on certain issues.

Read the first amendment, for example.

And my saying that, should not be construed that I'm in the camp of everybody should get mandatory vaccination.

That's my problem with all the echo chambers. Everybody assumes that people from other echo chambers are saying things or believing things that they're not. It's pure vilification.

This country will never get better, this world will never get better, until reasonable people become reasonable when faced with criticism.

You have to say things clearly if you want to be understood.

Since my comments are being taken out of context let me see if I could say this another way.

There are a ton of reasons that I will respect for people not wanting to get the VAXCClNE.

"I just don't wanna" isn't one of them.

Nobody needs your approval (or my approval) for their "reasons" behind their (very personal and health-affecting) choice of whether or not to get this new vaccine.

And again, I'm pretty sure MoneyDoc had better reason he didn't articulate. Which is why I didn't actually call him anything. I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Which he also seemed to give me. Cooler heads prevailed. That was encouraging to see. Reasonable people having different views and it wasn't villification.

The world needs more of that.

Again, your approval is not needed. It's a free country.

Let's keep it a free country.

But you know, it's a free country so those unions and corporations have a right to require this, right?

Well sure, but I believe there should be consequences for that too. Because it ain't right to take away a person's livelihood over this.

This is contradictory. Also, pretending that this stemmed purely from business and private interests is a lie. It started with political pressure.

But call me crazy, I'd put your personal freedoms and your personal liberty above the Public Relation interests of Acme corporation.

 

[Deleted70138]

sorry, but you might be selfish

Funny that "selfish" is even considered something negative.

Those who preach altruism are the biggest liars and perverts, both in politics and religious institutions.

 

[BizyDad]

They did on certain issues.

Read the first amendment, for example.


You have to say things clearly if you want to be understood.


Nobody needs your approval (or my approval) for their "reasons" behind their (very personal and health-affecting) choice of whether or not to get this new VAXCClNE.


Again, your approval is not needed. It's a free country.

Let's keep it a free country.


This is contradictory. Also, pretending that this stemmed purely from business and private interests is a lie. It started with political pressure.

But call me crazy, I'd put your personal freedoms and your personal liberty above the Public Relation interests of Acme corporation.

The first amendment wasn't present at our country's founding. It also didn't apply to slaves. So no they do not believe in unfettered freedom without consequences.

For example, the second amendment was established in recognition of the need to defend the republic and prevent tyranny.

That doesn't mean I can go around shooting anybody I think it's a dictator. There's consequences for that. But back then, I could challenge someone to a duel. RIP Hamilton.

And that just goes to show they lived in a world where they were real consequences. You blindly saying "First Amendment" doesn't factor in the cultural zeitgeist they wrote the document under. They knew the world had consequences. They understood personal responsibility and duty to yourself and your nation.

Now we want to divorce freedom from responsibility.

And I'm not here for that. That leads to chaos and anarchy.

You know what made America great? It wasn't just the freedom. It was the personal responsibility and sense of duty.

No one needs my approval. In bold? Sure. I agree. I think that's obvious. It's also obvious that I don't need your "approval" to exercise my first amendment rights by posting on this chat.

And if MJ were to ban me for my posts, I wonder if you Chosen would cry censorship on my behalf?

Or would you say it's his freedom to do so as owner of the site?

I suspect most people would say the second, because I've had that debate about those other echo chambers and I've read the responses.

So do we really believe the first Amendment is supposed to be unfettered?

Fortunately, I understand my actions have consequences, so I'm not trying to go all ranty on the rant thread. I'm having a respectful conversation with people I respect, but happen to have what I see as a slight difference of opinion with.

This world has lost its appreciation for nuance. And that my problem with echo chambers anywhere. I posted a very specific comment about a very specific attitude expressed here and I get told I'm the problem:

You have to say things clearly if you want to be understood.

Or, respectfully, maybe you need to have a slightly more open mind to actually be able to hear what I am saying and not keep trying to put words in my mouth.

I espouse pretty middle of the road views, and in this thread I get treated like a jack booted commie, or a boot licking facist. And on Facebook I'll get treated like I'm a racist right wing redneck.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't such a good metaphor for the general state of society.

I'm just a guy, like all the other guys and gals on here, sharing some opinions in the rant thread who also wants the world to be a better place. Nobody needs my approval, nor did I ever suggest that they did. That's putting words in my mouth.

This has been fun. I'm going to go make some money now. Carry on carrying on.

 

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[BizyDad]

Funny that "selfish" is even considered something negative.

I get that. Which is why I added

Self centered? Self focused?

I know lots of people who describe themselves as selfish and are proud of it. Good for them.

Like I said, if the shoe fits, wear it. Rock it. Let it make a statement.

There are a ton of selfish people on this forum. I respect a whole lot of them. Especially when they know why they choose to be selfish.

The ones who "just wanna" are kinda "meh" for me. Just wanna is a very "teenager-y" thinking.

I can't believe my saying these things are so controversial.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

The first amendment wasn't present at our country's founding. It also didn't apply to slaves. So no they do not believe in unfettered freedom without consequences.

For example, the second amendment was established in recognition of the need to defend the republic and prevent tyranny.

That doesn't mean I can go around shooting anybody I think it's a dictator. There's consequences for that. But back then, I could challenge someone to a duel. RIP Hamilton.

And that just goes to show they lived in a world where they were real consequences. You blindly saying "First Amendment" doesn't factor in the cultural zeitgeist they wrote the document under. They knew the world had consequences. They understood personal responsibility and duty to yourself and your nation.

Now we want to divorce freedom from responsibility.

And I'm not here for that. That leads to chaos and anarchy.

You know what made America great? It wasn't just the freedom. It was the personal responsibility and sense of duty.

No one needs my approval. In bold? Sure. I agree. I think that's obvious. It's also obvious that I don't need your "approval" to exercise my first amendment rights by posting on this chat.

And if MJ were to ban me for my posts, I wonder if you Chosen would cry censorship on my behalf?

Or would you say it's his freedom to do so as owner of the site?

I suspect most people would say the second, because I've had that debate about those other echo chambers and I've read the responses.

So do we really believe the first Amendment is supposed to be unfettered?

Fortunately, I understand my actions have consequences, so I'm not trying to go all ranty on the rant thread. I'm having a respectful conversation with people I respect, but happen to have what I see as a slight difference of opinion with.

This world has lost its appreciation for nuance. And that my problem with echo chambers anywhere. I posted a very specific comment about a very specific attitude expressed here and I get told I'm the problem:



Or, respectfully, maybe you need to have a slightly more open mind to actually be able to hear what I am saying and not keep trying to put words in my mouth.

I espouse pretty middle of the road views, and in this thread I get treated like a jack booted commie, or a boot licking facist. And on Facebook I'll get treated like I'm a racist right wing redneck.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't such a good metaphor for the general state of society.

I'm just a guy, like all the other guys and gals on here, sharing some opinions in the rant thread who also wants the world to be a better place. Nobody needs my approval, nor did I ever suggest that they did. That's putting words in my mouth.

This has been fun. I'm going to go make some money now. Carry on carrying on.

Hey man, you started this.

Looks like you couldn't handle your own topic, lol.

EDIT: Good quote for you to think about regarding all of this...

“There is freedom of speech, but I cannot guarantee freedom after speech.”
― Idi Amin

He was the "butcher of Uganda."

 

[Deleted70138]

I know lots of people who describe themselves as selfish and are proud of it. Good for them.

I don't think it's one person or another, but quintessence of life is being selfish.

Regardless of you action, it's always selfish in one way or another. Giving a glass of water to your loved one, is selfish to it's psychological roots, so it's rather useful to embrace the universe rather than lie to yourself and feel morally superior.

 

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[WillHurtDontCare]

I don't think it's one person or another, but quintessence of life is being selfish.

Regardless of you action, it's always selfish in one way or another. Giving a glass of water to your loved one, is selfish to it's psychological roots, so it's rather useful to embrace the universe rather than lie to yourself and feel morally superior.

The selfish / selfless spectrum can be a false dichotomy. Imagine if Caesar and Alexander didn't believe in the adventures that they led tens of thousands of men into.

You can pursue your own desires and have it benefit other people (which is a requirement for achieving big things).

 

[Matt Sun]

I get that. Which is why I added

I know lots of people who describe themselves as selfish and are proud of it. Good for them.

Like I said, if the shoe fits, wear it. Rock it. Let it make a statement.

There are a ton of selfish people on this forum. I respect a whole lot of them. Especially when they know why they choose to be selfish.

The ones who "just wanna" are kinda "meh" for me. Just wanna is a very "teenager-y" thinking.

I can't believe my saying these things are so controversial.

Maybe the "anti vax" aren't selfish at all but instead very caring for the future generations. If we don't resist now I imagine 2040 like :

"Frontal lobe amputations are safe and effective to prevent the new Mars-Cov-Virus. Just trust the experts. You shouldn't be an anti-amputation extremist, get your brain surgery passport with you always or you can't travel and no salary for you".


Seriously once we start this path of your rights tied to medical treatments who knows where it will end.

 

[Deleted70138]

The selfish / selfless spectrum can be a false dichotomy. Imagine if Caesar and Alexander didn't believe in the adventures that they led tens of thousands of men into.

You can pursue your own desires and have it benefit other people (which is a requirement for achieving big things).

I don't think selfishness it's a spectrum, but rather like a gravity of life.

All those famous historical figures acted according to their selfish feelings of domination (or illusions), followed by men with somewhat same motivations. Even slaves had their selfish interest of self preservation.

As for "big things", probably the exploitation of masses and benefiting a small circle of yours is the key ingredient. Genghis Khan has done some pretty big shit, altering the course of history in much major way than anybody else, but calling it win-win for everybody would be a bit ridiculous.

 

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[WillHurtDontCare]

but calling it win-win for everybody would be a bit ridiculous.

I didn't call it a win for everybody, because I don't care about everybody. There are winners in losers in life, and as Heraclitus said, "war is the father of all things".

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

Maybe the "anti vax" aren't selfish at all but instead very caring for the future generations. If we don't resist now I imagine 2040 like :

"Frontal lobe amputations are safe and effective to prevent the new Mars-Cov-Virus. Just trust the experts. You shouldn't be an anti-amputation extremist, get your brain surgery passport with you always or you can't travel and no salary for you".


Seriously once we start this path of your rights tied to medical treatments who knows where it will end.

Even if you're pro-vax, you should be anti-passport.

Requiring registration and medical records to enter a store to go buy your groceries is an extreme position.

NYC has that by law. There are currently protests though. Same in France and a few other places. Australia is one - they also had a military lockdown.

 

[Deleted70138]

I didn't call it a win for everybody, because I don't care about everybody. There are winners in losers in life, and as Heraclitus said, "war is the father of all things".

Then we are on the same page.

 

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[theresgot2bemore]

I'm actually glad the cop worship in the USA has chilled out massively. It was ridiculous in the years past which I found nuts imo. Even better is the no criticism aspect which lead to many nasty encounters which looking back I now laugh at and view as sad things. Think of how a stinky little plant that is now being sold in places like Arizona caused so much trouble and no one spoke up about that until recently. The military has always been criticized though it may not seem like it in some parts of the US. The coffee situation in this thread goes to show it happens all the time to cause quite the ruckus.

There is nothing wrong with government jobs since they can be nice but not when it interferes with business or our personal lives to a detrimental point like it has with the police. Just because they chose the safe route their whole lives does not mean others will. I don't know about you but outside of public safety reasons I don't listen to them. Since the average cop will work as just a cop and nothing more what good is that for a Fastlane focus?

The fact I even have to write this little part down in preparation for the expected objections to what I wrote above like those that start their own businesses and stop being cops goes to show how well trained one is made to defend the police. Thankfully though things are changing and a more pro business mentality that used to exist in the 90's and 2000's seems to be growing again in society although slowly. Maybe there will be a balance where the police will not be like they were in these years past.

 

[Antifragile]

Even if you're pro-vax, you should be anti-passport.

Requiring registration and medical records to enter a store to go buy your groceries is an extreme position.

Yes @thechosen1 This is a kind of a biggie folks, all the atrocious things we can see in history started out small… refer back to Milgram Experiment.

 

[Flint]

It's like an echo chamber of a different kind in here. I don't consume much media, so I don't really know "what's out there" about this. But I do have friends that work in hospitals and I trust what they tell me.

The tough part is our hospital system isn't designed to handle large influxes of people, such as what happens during an outbreak. Hospitals are getting more C0VlD cases again. At least where I live. There are numerous concerns about this, running out of ventilators, running out of space, working long hours, making mistakes and tough choices, etc.

Also concerning is this strain is more contagious and carries a higher viral load. Even with 50% vaccination rate, the # of cases is increasing roughly as fast as the previous two spikes (again, at least in my area).

Does it require more than half a brain to noodle this one out?

Yes the death rate isn't as severe. Thank God. If that really is what the media is pushing, then that's poor messaging at best.

But there are real concerns here that the people on the ground are expressing.

I wish different sides of this debate would at least try to see the other side. Oh government just wants to keep us down! Come on...

I completely understand the argument that mRNA is experimental and someone doesn't want to put it in their body. I wish "they" would understand that and not vilify people who feel this way.

But I also get that the more unvaxinated, unquarantined people run around, the more likely it is that our hospitals fill up, potentially causing rationing of essential services. I wish the other "they" would understand that and not vilify people who are trying to point out this basic fact.

When it is raining, please don't drive your usual speed. This is common sense right? If cops need to crack down on people speeding in rainstorms will we cry government overreach? Luckily we all mostly do a pretty good job of this.

But the ones who don't should face consequences, right?

So when your area is experiencing an outbreak, please do your best to not spread it. If you don't know how to accomplish that, educate yourself on the best practices.

How is asking that unreasonable? How is that not common sense? Why do we, as a culture, not treat our fellow man with that kind of respect innately? Why is any suggestion of "think about others" met with an instant "don't tread on my freedoms" refrain by certain people?

And what do we call people who believe they should enjoy unfettered freedom at any cost, free of any consequences?

Teenagers, that's what.

Lastly, if your best reason for not getting a VAXCClNE is simply "I don't wanna", well, sorry, but you might be selfish. Self centered? Self focused? A teenager?

Maybe you have better reasons, but I'm not a mind reader. I only know what you wrote. The media didn't brainwash me, your words clued me in.

I'm not saying you are a teenager or selfish, I don't know you, and even if you are I'm not trying to judge you for it. But if I hear duck quack, I'll think it's dubious if someone tells me it ain't a freaking duck. If the shoe fits, wear it homie.

Anyways, just offering a different view since you did ask the question:



Side note... I was called selfish for at least the last 8 years for not getting a flu shot. "Don't you want to keep the kids safe?"

You wanna talk guilt trips and manipulation? Yeah, I could share some stories. So I do get where you're coming from.

But after a decade of talking to people in city planning and public health and more generally the medical industry, I also get where some of the opposing view comes from too. Those people face really tough choices. It's a thankless rock vs hard place kind of life.

From where I sit, neither side has an monopoly on the truth and both sides have good, valid points. Both sides should reach out and talk to the other more.

Nobody solves anything by complaining.

Anyways, hope that helps somebody today.

Have you read Never Split The Difference by Chris Voss? The book is great, but the last chapter is brilliant. Here's a small part:

In any negotiation, but especially in a tense one like this, it's not how well you speak but how well you listen that determines your success. Understanding the "other" is a precondition to be able to speak persuasively and develop options that resonate for them. There is the visible negotiation and then all the things that are hidden under the surface (the secret negotiation space wherein the Black Swans dewll).

Access to this hidden space very often comes through understanding the other side's worldview, their reason for being, their religion. Indeed, digging into your counterpart's "religion" (sometimes involving God but not always) inherently implies moving beyond the negotiating table and into the life, emotional and otherwise, of your counterpart.

People's "worldview" has authority over them.
You can build your arguments in the most logical way, but if you don't speak to the worldview, you won't establish communication. Your arguments will sound ridiculous and you'll be surprised why you're misinterpreted.

This is not an easy topic. Because for half (or less) of the society what matters most above everything else is their freedom of choice. If you don't meet them in the same space and somehow, consciously or not, indicate that this freedom may be compromised, you'll shut down the communication channel. Likewise, when you talk to the other half of the society and even slightly nudge their need for safety, pooof, the comms are twisted.

From where I stand, we should try to decouple medical and societal views. Pro-vax is not anti-freedom and anti-vax is not anti-safety. But these thoughts are triggered as soon as the other person feels their values/worldview/"religion" are potentially compromised.

 

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[BizyDad]

Then we are on the same page.

I think your view is generally true.

I think mankind is at its core a pretty selfish species.

But I choose to believe it is not absolutely true in all cases. I think at least some of the 9/11 first responders weren't acting in their own self interest, for example. I choose to believe in a world where heroes and selfless intent exists. It is not common. It is rare. But it exists.

But I do assume most everybody I meet is going to act in their own self interest, and I cater my sales presentation to that effect.
Frankly, it's just semantics and how one chooses to see the world.

Hey man, you started this.

Looks like you couldn't handle your own topic, lol.

EDIT: Good quote for you to think about regarding all of this...

“There is freedom of speech, but I cannot guarantee freedom after speech.”
― Idi Amin

He was the "butcher of Uganda."

Yup, there's the fascist comparison I predicted, right on schedule. If history is any guide, soon you start getting actually angry and calling me names. Let's not do that again buddy.

You win Chosen. I bow to your superior display of intellect. I'll stop my nefarious Butcher of Arizona aspirations. Thank you for enlightening me. I appreciate you. I hope you have a truly successful day.

Maybe the "anti vax" aren't selfish at all but instead very caring for the future generations. If we don't resist now I imagine 2040 like :

"Frontal lobe amputations are safe and effective to prevent the new Mars-Cov-Virus. Just trust the experts. You shouldn't be an anti-amputation extremist, get your brain surgery passport with you always or you can't travel and no salary for you".


Seriously once we start this path of your rights tied to medical treatments who knows where it will end.

Yeah. And for the record, that is an awesome reason to be concerned.

Again, I didn't call all anti-vaxxers selfish. I said if your sole reason is just "I don't wanna" then you might be selfish.

Only one person even said that on the thread and that's the one person who was just like, ok fair enough.

But to your point, I hear you. I too am concerned about the slippery slope. I'm a Christian who was raised in end times theology. To me, it's not a question of if that is going to happen, but when. 2040? 2240? 3024? I don't know. But I do believe it's coming.

You're preaching to the choir here Fam.

But I also know that very similar debates were had in the 1880's about smallpox vaccines and we didn't sink into facism after that, even though there were forced innoculations. And again in the 1920's about Spanish flu quarantines and we didn't sink into facism (although some would say we took steps towards fascism under FDR, and I think they'd be right).

So history has some hope for us. Even if the country is at each other's throats, I pray we can come together again. Maybe we will, maybe we won't. As you said, who knows where this will end.

Have you read Never Split The Difference by Chris Voss? The book is great, but the last chapter is brilliant. Here's a small part:


People's "worldview" has authority over them.
You can build your arguments in the most logical way, but if you don't speak to the worldview, you won't establish communication. Your arguments will sound ridiculous and you'll be surprised why you're misinterpreted.

This is not an easy topic. Because for half (or less) of the society what matters most above everything else is their freedom of choice. If you don't meet them in the same space and somehow, consciously or not, indicate that this freedom may be compromised, you'll shut down the communication channel. Likewise, when you talk to the other half of the society and even slightly nudge their need for safety, pooof, the comms are twisted.

From where I stand, we should try to decouple medical and societal views. Pro-vax is not anti-freedom and anti-vax is not anti-safety. But these thoughts are triggered as soon as the other person feels their values/worldview/"religion" are potentially compromised.

Yes, you diagnosed the problem well. Frank Lutz has a couple books on this topic as well that are worth reading.

Part of why I engage in this from time to time, even though it feels like I am beating my head against a proverbial wall, is because I really do want to get better at this type of difficult communication.

And you can't do that if you don't engage. Truthfully, I've gotten somewhat better. I mean MoneyDoc gave me a "fair enough" and Chosen hasn't started actually calling me names yet. That's improvement.

I'll keep working at it. I want to build bridges not walls, but I'm basically a self taught metaphorical engineer. And walls is all I know (so far...).

Thank you for your well thought out response.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

If only there was an eye roll reaction.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Did you guys ever watch that sci fi movie Cloud Atlas with Hallie Berry where the clones were made? The liquid they drank to get sustenance was made from other clones.. being melted down. It was so gross.

But that’s better than dying! Who wants to die? It’s so awful.

Anything is better than dying. ANYTHING. Let’s make medicine by grinding up dead babies. Let’s eat each other. Let’s do F*cking ANYTHING to stay alive. Let’s steal somebody’s body parts and use them to create treatments. Let’s do anything we can to keep people alive. That’s the only thing that matters. Just don’t die.

https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients/fetal-tissues

The Immortal Life « Rebecca Skloot

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

Did you guys ever watch that sci fi movie Cloud Atlas with Hallie Berry where the clones were made? The liquid they drank to get sustenance was made from other clones.. being melted down. It was so gross.

But that’s better than dying! Who wants to die? It’s so awful.

Anything is better than dying. ANYTHING. Let’s make medicine by grinding up dead babies. Let’s eat each other. Let’s do f*cking ANYTHING to stay alive. Let’s steal somebody’s body parts and use them to create treatments. Let’s do anything we can to keep people alive. That’s the only thing that matters. Just don’t die.

https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/VAXCClNE-education-center/VAXCClNE-ingredients/fetal-tissues

The Immortal Life « Rebecca Skloot

I believe there was something written like this...

If only people of the past had encountered these same stupid debates so both sides today had a rough guide of how it would go, and maybe some wiser insight!

Oh wait:

A Modest Proposal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not to mention the old phrase:
"Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!"

Your freedom is the baby. It is the product of centuries of mankind's progress, philosophically, historically, and governmentally.

Today's issues are the bathwater. They can be quite tragic. It can be a total crisis. But it is dirty bathwater. It won't last forever.

Don't. Throw. Out. The. Baby.

 

[Awaken Study]

Have you read Never Split The Difference by Chris Voss? The book is great, but the last chapter is brilliant. Here's a small part:


People's "worldview" has authority over them.
You can build your arguments in the most logical way, but if you don't speak to the worldview, you won't establish communication. Your arguments will sound ridiculous and you'll be surprised why you're misinterpreted.

This is not an easy topic. Because for half (or less) of the society what matters most above everything else is their freedom of choice. If you don't meet them in the same space and somehow, consciously or not, indicate that this freedom may be compromised, you'll shut down the communication channel. Likewise, when you talk to the other half of the society and even slightly nudge their need for safety, pooof, the comms are twisted.

From where I stand, we should try to decouple medical and societal views. Pro-vax is not anti-freedom and anti-vax is not anti-safety. But these thoughts are triggered as soon as the other person feels their values/worldview/"religion" are potentially compromised.

Beautifully spoken. People's world views on this topic have been shaped by a billion dollar marketing campaign since January 2020 when the videos of people dropping dead in China came out.

There's been marketing on both sides which I believe has been meant to keep us divided.

In May 2021 there were 3.5 billion Covid vaccine ad impressions.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/06/health/C0VlD-19-ads-why-theyve-gone-away/index.html

I believe "the other side" has seen just as many social media posts on the negatives/ side affects of the vaccines, etc.

I personally have taken a 50,000 foot view and say both sides are now under a script. I refuse to be a part of the script. Rich people flying on private jets are not worried about vaccine passports.

I hate wearing masks so I started getting Walmart, Instacart and Amazon deliveries. For $10, my groceries can be delivered within 2 hours.

Knowing that billions have been spent on ads helps me to be less upset/ judgemental. Knowing nothing I say can counteract the thousands of ads someone has seen allows me to live my life in peace.

Edit: The 3.5 billion impressions in May is just TV ads. This doesn't include ads on social media and regular people posting/talking about it as discussion