Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and facts

[Jill]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Jill, how's the game coming? Have you tried tightening up? How's it working?

Not yet. Haven't played the last few days. I've been reading the past two or three evenings. I'm in major sponge mode. When I get saturated, I go play and the knowledge comes alive. But I re-read Snowbank's thread this morning and suddenly things make sense to me that were complete gibberish the first time I read them. I'm sure that will continue for a long time!

But I've been working 12 and 13 hr days lately, so not a lot of free time in the evenings to play.

 

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[reipro]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Jill,

First off, please take my advice with a grain of salt because I'm just learning and have only been playing about a month so I may be giving the wrong advice.

I'm currently playing at the Hold 'Em NL 6-max 0.02/0.04 with a $4 buy in on real money tables on Cake Poker and I see what you describe a lot. People raise and call on almost every hand. At first, I played along and got in once and a while, but often lost post-flop because I wasn't confident in my hand.

I used to hate these tables and usually left tables that were so loose. But then I decided to stay one day and just change my game and play VERY, VERY tight. And by tight I mean I think I was seeing the flop about 10% of the time max. I folded 90 out of every 100 hands. I only called or raised really, really strong hands and then played very aggressive with them. I played Jacks or higher pairs and AK - AJ. Rarely would I play other hands, even from the button. The loose players never caught on that I only played good hands only, which is a nice bonus.

Guess what happened? I began winning 8 out of the 10 hands I played and with so many loose players at the tables, the pots were huge. One week I played about 200 hands a day and doubled my money at least 1 time a session. I made something like $20 that week and playing at .02/.04 that's not bad.

Granted, it is a little boring (I've since started playing 2 tables at a time because I fold so much), but the results seem to be good.

I'm not sure if my strategy is the best one (hopefully others will weigh in), but thought I'd let you know what's been working for me (it's still working 3 weeks later).

Best,
Sid23

Sid and Jill,

I have been playing poker for maky years and have played in a lot of big tournments, including 2 trips to the WSOP and LAPT where I finished 25th out of 361 players.

Sid your strategy of playing tight is a good one for cash game. You are correct it is boring, but you will make money. There is no reason to play marginal hands, however in a tournment where blinds and antes go up at a fast pace you must play many more hands as you will not see enough premium hands, before you get blinded out.

There are many ways to play poker and you must read the table. I will tend to see the flop about 50% of the time. This is considered a loose player, however everytime I decided to enter a pot I will raise or reraise the inital raiser. This will tend to get big payoffs for you when you do have a premium hand.

Good luck on the tables.

 

[Sid23]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Can someone explain exactly what 3-betting is and give an example in a hand? And what does it mean to then 4-bet bluff?

Thanks,
Sid23

 

[Sid23]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Thanks JScott. Rep ++

Is anyone playing at Fulltilt? The lowest NL tables for hold 'em 6 max I can find for real money are .05/.10 $10NL. Am I missing a room(s) somewhere?

Edit: Jason, apparently I need to spread out the rep a bit first. sorry!

 

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[Rawr]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

quick q, I decided to play a bit - how can I transfer some paypal cash to pokerstars, or whichever site you recommend most?

 

[snowbank]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Is anyone playing at Fulltilt? The lowest NL tables for hold 'em 6 max I can find for real money are .05/.10 $10NL. Am I missing a room(s) somewhere?

PokerStars has penny tables.

 

[PokerRich]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

PokerStars has penny tables.

I am not sure if it still the case but the .05/.10 tables on FTP used to be double the rake of the PokerStars tables.

 

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[snowbank]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

I am not sure if it still the case but the .05/.10 tables on FTP used to be double the rake of the PokerStars tables.

even if it was(which I would be surprised if that was the case), at those stakes often times the pots will be so small that little to no rake gets collected, and winrates can be so high at those levels because of the competition that it wouldn't have a great effect on being able to make money, but relative to bankrolls could have an effect.

 

[snowbank]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

****PART 3****

How much money can you make?
​

Probably the most fun part to talk about/think about when you're trying to learn the game, is the potential benefits of learning to play well. How much money can you actually win?........

Short answer, a LOT.

I'll be more specific:

At micro and small stakes poker a good player can earn 10 big blinds/100 hands.(some more, but this is a good number to be shooting for) So if you are playing .10/.25, and you are making 10 bb/100, you're going to make $2.50 every 100 hands you play. Now you're probably thinking, well, that's not much money at all. But the thing is this is at very small stakes. The scalability of your poker business is absolutely huge. Not only can you move up and play higher stakes, you can also add more tables. You can add a lot more tables, basically multiplying your hourly rate until you hit diminishing returns. It's different for everyone what the best number of tables for them is to play, and like anything else it's something you get better at as you practice. Maybe you can only play 4-6 tables for a while, but then after a while you learn to play 8, or 10, or 12. I started playing 1 table at a time. If I'm playing 6 max tables, now I get bored if I'm playing any less than 8. If I play full ring tables, I like to be playing at least 16 at a time. Number of tables isn't something you should really shoot for. You should just focus on playing good poker, and over time you will be able to add tables as you get better and as more situations that come up become second nature, which = less time needed to concentrate on each table, which = ability to play more tables while still playing good poker.

Like I mentioned in a previous post, it's good bankroll management to have 30 buyins per level that you're playing at. So if you are playing .10/.25($25 buy in), your bankroll should be $750. If you don't have $750 you can obviously start playing lower stakes, even as low as .01/.02(where you'd only need $150). Let's just a look at an example of someone who doesn't have much money, but decides to scale the crap out of their "poker business."

Johnny decides his New Years resolution is to make money playing poker, since he doesn't want to have a job. He deposits $150 onto PokerStars, and begins playing the .01/.02 tables. He plays solid tight poker and throughout the month of January works his way thru .05/.10 and gets a roll big enough to play .10/.25.($750). Obviously making $600 in a month isn't much money, but Johnny knows he just needs to learn the game and build his bankroll before he can think about making a lot of money. To start February, Johnny begins 2 tabling .10/.25 to ease his way into it. He starts out with a winrate of 7 bb/100 hands. Johnny is playing around 200 hands/hour, so he's making roughly $3.50/hour. The competition is a bit harder, so Johnny wants to focus and not add more tables right now. Throughout the month Johnny adds a 3rd table, and with his rakeback, at the end of the month Johnny has enough($1,500) to move up to .25/.50. He's starting to feel pretty confident about his game, and after the first few days of March decides to add a 4th table when he realizes .25/.50 is not that much harder than the previous level. He's still earning about 7 bb/100, but because of the higher level he's playing and the additional tables, he's now earning $14/hour, as opposed to the $3.50/hr he was making just 1 month ago. At the end of the month after adding in his rakeback, he makes about $2,000 on the month. His bankroll is now at $3,500. He can more than comfortably dive into .50/1 games now. It's a bit harder at this level, and he's only winning at about 5 bb/100. He's a little discouraged about this, until he realizes that he's actually still making more money! He's making $20/hr now as opposed to $14, because he had the bankroll to allow him to move up to a higher level game. Sure, it's a bit harder, but his decreased winrate isn't enough to not have him continue to improve his hourly rate. Along with his rakeback, his total earnings for the month are $2,500, bringing his total bankroll to $6,000. He is now rolled for the 1/2 games. At this point, he decides to hire a coach for April to make his transition easier. He picks things up quickly through his coach, and realizes a lot of mistakes he was making. Despite the increased level, he's beating the 1/2 level for 7 bb/100, giving him an hourly rate of $56/hr. He gets bored halfway through the month only playing 4 tables, and adds 2 more which has him bringing in $84/hr. This has been a big breakthrough month for Johnny, and with his rakeback, which has increased dramatically over the months because of the increased stakes/tables, he brings in over $9,000 on the month, now bringing his bankroll to $15,000. He can't believe he started with just $150 4 months ago. Johnny is conservative, and doesn't want to move up to higher levels so he decides to play it safe and stay with 1/2, but still wants to make more money so he decides to add a couple more tables. He handles 8 tables no problem, and with a winrate of 8 bb/100, he's very happy with his $128/hr income. Now he realizes why it was important to use bankroll management so that he would have the capital to comfortably move up in stakes as he improved. He makes over $15,000 on the month, doubling his bankroll bringing it to $30,000! Johnny decides to keep playing small stakes and takes out a good chunk of his bankroll to put a downpayment on his first investment property.

Let's take a better look into the numbers I mentioned:

Johnny's hourly rate in May was $128/hr. It's actually a bit higher than that because of the rakeback though. Per table at 1/2nl at 6 max players make probably around $4/hr. So because Johnny was 8 tabling, he was making an additional $32/hr, making his actual hourly rate $160/hr.

Here's a breakdown per level of a bunch of different scenarios:

Stakes Tables bb/100 Rakeback/hr Hourly

.10/.25 1 10 .50 $2.75
.10/.25 4 10 2 $11.00
.10/.25 8 10 4 $22.00
.25/.50 8 10 8 $48.00
.5/1 8 10 16 $96.00
1/2 8 10 32 $192.00
2/4 8 8 40 $296.00
5/10 8 6 45 $525.00
10/20 6 6 45 $765.00

These would be higher end rates for the games, but you can kind of see where people try to reach for as they move up in games, and even if you're winrate isn't as high as these, you can still make a lot of money just playing a good amount of tables, having a halfway decent winrate and adding in your rakeback. Obviously there are much higher games as well.(There are $500/$1,000 stake games.) Some guys are making millions of dollars/year.

Hopefully this gave you a good idea of how much money you can make, and gives you some inspiration if you've had struggles early on while trying to learn the game. It'll often take time to get a hang of it, but once you do as you see it is an extremely scaleable business and the potential profits are huge. Most people give up early on because they don't see what's ahead if they put in the work. The money is there, but you've gotta put in your time. I'd say good luck to everyone at the tables in 2009, but as you should know by now, it has little to do with luck.:smxF:

 

[hawaiiloans]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

After donkeying it up a bit and losing most of my deposits I am soaking up knowledge from this post, and 2+2.

 

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[andviv]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

So, once you get to a basic level, where you are not losing money, and start to making money but then get stuck, no clear way about how to get to the next level, then what?

I remember you mentioned during the last B&P that you had paid a lot of money for coaching sessions to move to the next level... would you mind talking about that?

and...

how much do you charge for coaching sessions?

P.S. should that be a whole new thread, just so we don't disrupt the purpose of this thread?

 

[snowbank]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

So, once you get to a basic level, where you are not losing money, and start to making money but then get stuck, no clear way about how to get to the next level, then what?

That's one of the reasons we're putting together that site I've been working on. You can also hire coaches, talk strategy with other players at similar or higher levels, etc... There's always ways to improve.

I remember you mentioned during the last B&P that you had paid a lot of money for coaching sessions to move to the next level... would you mind talking about that?

and...

how much do you charge for coaching sessions?

I talked in detail about some of the coaching(maybe not in this thread might have been another one; I'll try and find it when I have a chance.) I've had a lot of different experiences with coaches. Some good, some bad. Overall I don't think you can lose a lot by hiring someone who's better than you at something to teach you what they know. If you increase your winrate by even the smallest rate it pays for itself many times over. If you have specific questions about it just lemme know I'd be glad to answer them.

I don't coach, pretty strapped for time.

You thinking of getting into poker Andres?

 

[Jill]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Until you get your site up and running, where would one go to find a coach? Is there like a "Dice.com" for poker coaches?? LOL. My $100 is now $82 (but only after about 400 hands) I'm playing tight pre-flop, but keep getting sucked into hands I shouldn't after the flop.

Thanks for this. Fun stuff!

 

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[snowbank]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Until you get your site up and running, where would one go to find a coach? Is there like a "Dice.com" for poker coaches?? LOL. My $100 is now $82 (but only after about 400 hands) I'm playing tight pre-flop, but keep getting sucked into hands I shouldn't after the flop.

Thanks for this. Fun stuff!

The good news is the site should be up and running this week.

I know of one guy who's a phenomenal micro stakes coach but I think he charges $100/hr(which is a lot for a micro stakes coach) I'd definitely put in a lot more hands before you hired a coach though, and I'd maybe save hands you're having trouble with and either post them here, or save them so if you decide to hire a coach they can help you through the tougher hands, which speeds up the learning process since they'd spend time on what you're having trouble with and not everything in general if you have certain aspects down.

 

[andviv]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

You thinking of getting into poker Andres?

I think I'm in the same boat as Jill...

Just playing for fun in the free time (which seems to be less and less lately).

For me, I guess the website is more than what I can handle for now, but it is good to know the resource is there.

I can tell, though, there is a lot of interest here by many forum members.

 

[Jill]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Slightly off-topic . . .

But has anyone found a good source of downloadable video podcasts for poker instruction? I find my time on the treadmill & airplane goes much faster when I can watch something I enjoy. Audio instruction would be an option as well, if there aren't any hand-analysis type videos.

 

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[reipro]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

You can go to PokerVT.com. It is Daniel Negranau's site (not sure if I spelled his name correct). For the money it is the best site I have seen.

Until you get your site up and running, where would one go to find a coach? Is there like a "Dice.com" for poker coaches?? LOL. My $100 is now $82 (but only after about 400 hands) I'm playing tight pre-flop, but keep getting sucked into hands I shouldn't after the flop.

Thanks for this. Fun stuff!

 

[snowbank]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Reipro,

I assure you that you will change your mind about that in a few days.

 

[LightHouse]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Reipro,

I assure you that you will change your mind about that in a few days.

B, is that when your new site is launching?

 

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[snowbank]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

B, is that when your new site is launching?

barring any last minute hold ups, yes.

 

[reipro]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Good luck with your site snowbank. Let me know when it is up and I will take a look

 

[Sid23]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Some basic questions from a newbie...

1) Do people actually use odds calculators in real time play? If so, how can you do that with things moving so fast?

2) If my “poker odds†are 6.5 to 1, I need my pot odds to be 6 to 1 or better (5 to 1, 4 to 1, etc)…at least that’s the basic idea, right?

3) What does it mean to “flop a set†from a pocket pair?

4) What does it “open ended†mean when it says you have 5 to 1 odds to make a straight if you are “open ended�

5) Snowbank, would you advise the same strategy (bankroll building, moving up levels, etc) to someone who was not looking to play full time, but just looking to maybe make some extra money on the side?

Thanks all for a great thread!!

 

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[snowbank]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Some basic questions from a newbie...

1) Do people actually use odds calculators in real time play? If so, how can you do that with things moving so fast?

2) If my “poker odds†are 6.5 to 1, I need my pot odds to be 6 to 1 or better (5 to 1, 4 to 1, etc)…at least that’s the basic idea, right?

3) What does it mean to “flop a set†from a pocket pair?

4) What does it “open ended†mean when it says you have 5 to 1 odds to make a straight if you are “open ended�

5) Snowbank, would you advise the same strategy (bankroll building, moving up levels, etc) to someone who was not looking to play full time, but just looking to maybe make some extra money on the side?

Thanks all for a great thread!!

1. Not many people, no. Some use pokerstove, but that's a lot more complex than an odds calculator and not something beginners should be trying to wrap their head around while trying to play at the same time.

2. If I'm understanding you correctly, that's the basic idea yes that the amount of money in the pot effects when you can call because your pot odds is the deciding factor in whether or not you should call if you are less than 50% to win. You can apply similar logic to when you should semi-bluff, because you can factor in that they will fold sometimes so being a dog in the hand does not always mean you shouldn't put your money in.

3. A set is when you have a pocket pair and you then have 3 of a kind with the board. Example you have 88, flop is K48. You flopped a "set" of 8's in that example. If you have A8 and flop is K88, you flopped "trips".

4. Open ended means you can hit a straight from both sides. Example: you have JT, the board is 89A. You have an open ended straight draw because both the 7 or the Q will give you the straight.

5. Ya, regardless of whether you want to make full time money or part time money you've gotta play within your limits/play at levels you are prepared for or it's just gambling.

 

[snowbank]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

As mentioned I've been working on a site that will help people looking to make money from poker, or if they're already making money, make more of it The site is now live as of today:

bluefirepoker.com

I didn't have anything like this when I started playing poker and if I had I think it would have dramatically increased the speed at which I learned the game, being able to learn from people already making a lot of money from it and having them explain exactly how they're doing it. Been a really long process so hopefully you guys getting into poker like it; def be interested in feedback. I'll probably make a post about some of the process in another thread so it will be helpful to others.

 

[Sid23]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Looks like a great site. Just signed up and looking forward to learning from you guys!

rep speed snowbank for all you've shared ++++

 

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[Jill]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Congrats, Snowbank! Just signed up. Great stuff. Can't wait to dig in and see more. (I just wonder how many times I'll have to see the beginner videos before I start to understand them!!??)

 

[Oski]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Where would be a good website to start out on?

 

[snowbank]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Congrats, Snowbank! Just signed up. Great stuff. Can't wait to dig in and see more. (I just wonder how many times I'll have to see the beginner videos before I start to understand them!!??)

Glad you like it Jill. I mentioned this in the PM I responded to, but for others who may have vid questions we have a forum dedicated to questions on the specific videos so if there's things you didn't understand in the video or you want the pros to expand on more they will.

 

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[snowbank]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

Where would be a good website to start out on?

in regards to training or playing?

playing stars has .01/.02

 

[Oski]

Re: Poker: How you can get started, succeed, and many myths and f

in regards to training or playing?

playing stars has .01/.02

Oh sorry i didn't see the link in your sig :smx4: