Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

[Gale4rc]

Good plan



Also learn

http://onemonthrails.com

Learn the ability to make your own prototypes in 1 month which will save time in the future and also get you speaking code.


Random rant:
It seems like this forum has a lack of co-founders and in the startup world every one has co-founders. Don't be afraid to pair up with someone that can step your game up and hold you accountable.

 

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[garyk1968]

I would say this advice is right on the money. As a dev with over 20+ years experience the money is in selling product not toiling away selling your time for money. I've primarily been a freelancer/consultant since '93 and whilst you can earn really good money typically £400-500 per day what you end up with is a well paid job.

I've been doing apps for 3 years and lots of people say 'O Ive got an idea for an app' but I'm never interested. Why? Because building an app isn't hard. You can't do it? Then outsource it. Your issue is not a technical one its a marketing one as unless you either have a) access to alot of eyeballs or b) a marketing plan and extensive budget your app will be like dropping a pebble in the middle of the pacific ocean.


I actually only found this forum as I was searching for Dane Maxwell and the foundation. Why? because I don't want to keep freelancing and want to build a viable SaaS business. I would say being brutally honest that being a dev is actually a disadvantage. The reason being you typically start with the product and try and find your market. The foundation material blew me away and has made me realise where I have been going wrong. Just because you can build something doesn't mean that you should do it.

Gary

 

[healthstatus]

So after 300+ postings on this topic, the reasons people want to learn to program:

1. They have no money
2. They are afraid to outsource because their idea will be stolen
3. They are afraid to outsource because they can't put their idea in a form someone else will understand
4. They are afraid to outsource because someone else had a bad experience
5. They are afraid to outsource because they hired the lowest bidder previously and it didn't go well
6. They want to be able to talk technical about their project to who ever is coding for them.
7. They can learn to write code in 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, less than a year (all time frames espoused by various posters on the forum) at a high enough level to make a site work and be secure enough to take peoples money.

If you are in one or more of these seven categories, what you have failed to do is prepare. You are using slow lane mentality and you are looking for a lottery ticket to propel you forward. Programming becomes the excuse, I need to learn one more language, there is a new framework that will make everything easier, I'm investigating which database to use, I'm checking out the best SSL certificate to use, should I go reactive or responsive design, and the list never ends and your project never gets off the ground.

Elementary school kids can raise money by selling wrapping paper by going door to door. If you can't figure out a way to start selling someone else's proven product to fund your idea, you won't be able to sell your unproven product if it ever gets done.

 

[damien275x]

As a programmer, I tried to outsource a couple of components just to see if I could speed up development time. Was a pain in the a$$. The guy on the other end deliberately tried to make the whole thing more complicated and tried to bait me into paying more. When I hit back with a technical response he finally shut up and got to work. In the end it wasn't good code, and with the time taken to explain what I wanted, I could have knocked it up faster myself.

I've had some success as well. But outsourcing involves going through someones code and reverse engineering it at some point anyway to add/remove functionality. If I have personally written a project, I can implement changes and fixes like *that* -- non technicals will have to sit and wait for weeks. Also they deliberately design without pointing out big flaws (they are a coder, not an advisor) - so if you have made planning errors, all the better for them - you'll be back later with more $$ for them.

 

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[Daniel A]

I bet there is a difference between coding and programming, but Obama says we Americans should learn how to code haha

"President Obama calls on every American to learn code"

 

[Daniel A]

If you can't figure out a way to start selling someone else's proven product to fund your idea, you won't be able to sell your unproven product if it ever gets done.

That's why I believe internet/affiliate marketing is a good way to learn and prepare for starting your own business.

For me it's a means to an end. There are pros and cons though.

On Secret Entourage they had an article that said "the best first attempt at entrepreneurship should be online via a website or an app." I am going with the website/internet marketing for now. I started looking into apps a bit too, maybe that's the direction I will go.

http://www.secretentourage.com/motivation/the-best-first-business-to-start-in-2014/

 

[healthstatus]

I bet there is a difference between coding and programming, but Obama says we Americans should learn how to code

So somebody can fix that awesome Healthcare website. Which is a glorious example of how to give really vague specifications to an outsourcer that you didn't check credentials on, have poor communication with (not a language issue, just a they didn't communicate), and get the exact pile of crap you deserve to get when you do half (or less) of the preparation you should be doing.

 

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[Daniel A]

This is the website right? https://www.healthcare.gov/

I was clicking around and it doesn't seem to bad, or did it get updated?

Two little things I did notice was when I clicked "sitemap" on the first page, the blue box extended all the way to the left of the screen. Then it loaded weird for a bit (all the text was on the left like a email sales letter haha, just for a second though).

 

[healthstatus]

 

[alexz]

Good programmer can not help turn a bad idea into profitable business. So bad programmer is not all to blame for failed business. I read an article somewhere that at the beginning you do not want to automate things. You want to go slow. You want to talk to your customer, you want to do everything by hand, with paper and pencil, and that is how you learn the insight of the business. Then you talk to programmer to speed things up to make the process more efficient.

Some other business may depend heavily on tech. I was making good money with AdSense, and I built the system myself because I am a programmer by trade, and I have been doing it for 10+ years. That is quite a different story. Most business does not rely on automation that much at the very beginning.

If you want to talk to me about programming, or app/game idea, or business niche where a programmer may help, I would love to hear from you guys. I believe collaboration is the way to go. To learn programming from scratch simply takes too much of up front time investment.

 

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[Vigilante]

Good programmer can not help turn a bad idea into profitable business. So bad programmer is not all to blame for failed business. I read an article somewhere that at the beginning you do not want to automate things. You want to go slow. You want to talk to your customer, you want to do everything by hand, with paper and pencil, and that is how you learn the insight of the business. Then you talk to programmer to speed things up to make the process more efficient.

Some other business may depend heavily on tech. I was making good money with AdSense, and I built the system myself because I am a programmer by trade, and I have been doing it for 10+ years. That is quite a different story. Most business does not rely on automation that much at the very beginning.

If you want to talk to me about programming, or app/game idea, or business niche where a programmer may help, I would love to hear from you guys. I believe collaboration is the way to go. To learn programming from scratch simply takes too much of up front time investment.

You might want to spend some time here and contribute to the forum before you solicit business. Please post an introduction in the introductions thread, and take off your coat and stay a while. We are glad you are here. Please take it slow, get to know how things work around here, and lend your expertise to the discussions in progress.

 

[Hermann]

I think it depends on the problem.

It doesn´t make sense to learn OS-programming just to sell mouse-drivers for a niche product.
In this case, a trained / paid programmer would safe you a lot of time.

On the other hand, learning to build a website with HTML / PHP / maybe JavaScript
may take a couple of weeks, but will, in the long run, be much more convenient than
always having to consult a web-designer to make small changes
( especially if your business is online and has to be updated regularly ).

 

[healthstatus]

may take a couple of weeks

You can't learn to code properly in a couple of weeks. If you could, really good programmers in the US could be hired for minimum wage, but they can't they charge north of $80.00/hour.

 

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[Hermann]

You can't learn to code properly in a couple of weeks. If you could, really good programmers in the US could be hired for minimum wage, but they can't they charge north of $80.00/hour.

No, you really can´t. But you also don´t have to know everything.
You only have to learn specific things that serves your needs, for instance, setting up
a website.
And that specific skill can be learned in couple of weeks, I dare say.

 

[healthstatus]

You only have to learn specific things that serves your needs, for instance, setting up
a website.

OK, but that isn't what this thread is about.

 

[Wuz]

First you´re developing a skill and developing the trait of perseverance, problem solving and to see how much commitment you have to this thing.

Second, sometimes the difference between aquire 2 or 20 clients depends on your ability to make changes and apply new features in your website in matter of hours/days. If the customer knows that you re able to improve your website in a couple of the days and regularly, the customer will choose you.. MY opinion... If you dont know nothing about programming, its hard to know whenits time to change.

Third, in the process of learning, ideas for improvements on your website, will appear in your head.

How do you suppose to build a amazing website, if you dont know the True potential of a programming language? Sometimes , the simple fact of knowing a simple "code trick" can give you a huge amount of ideas for you to execute in your website and a huge competitive advantage.


Do you really expect a programmer to give is 100 percent of effort to build a "huge" and "magnificient experience to the consumer" in your website?

Unless he is your partner, i dont think so.

Last and not least, all this points ,only apply if you enjoy learn programming.

Otherwise, is better to contract a programmer.


Dont hate on the grammar,its not my first language.

 

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[healthstatus]

First you´re developing a skill and developing the trait of perseverance, problem solving and to see how much commitment you have to this thing.

I'd rather make money.

Do you really expect a programmer to give is 100 percent of effort to build a "huge" and "magnificient experience to the consumer" in your website?

No, I expect him to execute to my specifications exactly. This is where too many people get sideways, they think they can say, I want something like blahblah.com and expect the programmer to fill in the blanks. (see my outsource thread in the INSIDERS section)

 

[Wuz]

I'd rather make money.


No, I expect him to execute to my specifications exactly. This is where too many people get sideways, they think they can say, I want something like blahblah.com and expect the programmer to fill in the blanks. (see my outsource thread in the INSIDERS section)

But if you dont know nothing about programming, how do you expect to give "specifications"? The programmer maybe give you some suggestions to make your "specifications" a reality. But how do you know that same specification is really the best way? you dont.

I think the reason why some people are against learning programming,its because they think that the old stereotype of the kid who learn program at the childhood, makes the "learning curve" too long to have some return on the investment.

Now this people forget that in the childhood, we dont have the same "emotional maturity" and experience of life that we have now, those "early programmers" had to probably spend days to figure out things , that nowadays we can learn in an hour.

We are able to select the most important information.

Age of information.


Two different point of views. There is to many ways to make money, there is no need to fight about unecessary things.

 

[mememan]

I don't get why this is still a topic. If you like programming, sure, build your app. If you have absolutely no experience programming and a business idea, carefully find someone and spend $1k on it. With design frameworks and scripts, you may be able to get something up as a good test product.

Of course, expose yourself to the lingo and big ideas in programming. That way, you can talk shop to a degree with the programmer. But there's a big difference between knowing how something is accomplished and getting down into each line of code and making sure it works.

Don't let the programmer be in control; you're the boss. I tried to get a simple web app built twice in the past. The first time, I got suckered into hourly and paid x2 more than I wanted with no usable product from a $40/hour programmer. The 2nd time, I paid x4 more than I wanted with a $55/hour programmer. I provided great specs, but let them go hourly both times and beat around the bush since they were the only decent people that applied. This isn't even all that great of an idea, but letting them be in control cost me close to $10k with code I probably can't use, but since they each spread it over a few months, the costs weren't visible immediately.

Now, I'm not doing the programmer's any favors. Healthstatus has found people in the $15-$20 range that blow the guys I used away. They work cheap and get the job done quick (2-3 weeks, not 2 months and lots of "redoing" the code after a week's break), or if they start dallying around, I fire and leave bad feedback.

Don't overpay and you'll be okay. Better spend $1k and iterate and GET TRAFFIC versus spend $10k and have "really good code comments" but a programmer who can't even upload the site to hosting :/

 

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[James Fake]

< please delete >

 

[WhiteEagle]

I realize that I'm new here, but here's my take on this, and I'm really looking forward to some encouragement and/or criticism:

The thread topic is "Leaning to Program is STUPID"... That's an opinion and the OP is obviously trying to gauge the community's take on this statement WRT fastlane goals.

I think that EVERYONE should learn how to code, at least basic/intermediate concepts. Why learn how to drive a car when you can just hire a chaufeur? Why should you learn ANY financial concepts when you can just hire an accountant/bookkeeper? Why not just hire a copywriter or an IM instead of learning it yourself?

Its the 21st century here and knowledge of coding/programming should be as commonplace as using Facebook, Twitter, the computer or any electronic device. You're constantly SURROUNDED by these things. They are there FOR YOU, and you should know how to harness their power and tell them what you want done, be it for personal everyday use or to build your Fastlane empire.

Regarding the FastLane... MJ states this in the book, right in the intro, "Success is a journey that can't be outsourced to India in a 4-hour workweek." Heck, even he himself learned programming and web design. Later, he learned how to faux-finish paint (well, because he had the time, etc.). But the question is this... Why learn ANYTHING when you can just outsource it? To develop yourself. To add another tool in your arsenal. To KNOW if people are ripping you off. A 10-hour project shouldn't be quoted 60+ hours. Same reason why you should know key financial concepts and their inner workings; know if your financial advisor is giving you good advice.

Depending on what your goals are, learning to program just might need to be part of the PROCESS.

And remember: "The geek shall inherit the Earth." Yup, think that that!

 

[GuestUser112]

Okay so I tried to read this thread from start to finish, but I couldn't because there's just too much ego involved. Here's what I got out of what I did read though, for anybody who's trying to maximize their time spent:

Time is money. If you want to spend a few months learning a skill, learning marketing and copy will give you more bang for your buck than learning to program. Learning to program isn't stupid, it just takes more time and effort than other skills.

If you want to do anything in business, then learning to market and copy is imperative. If you want to do anything in software business, then learning to program is very important. Still should learn sales though. But its not like two are mutually exclusive.

I'm 21 with no useful skills other than musical talent and the ability to write creatively. I want to start a fastlane business, but I haven't decided on a product or service yet. I also have no money. So I'm learning copy and marketing in the meantime: apparently I can make money within the next few months as long as I have an internet connection: sounds good. I'll also have a skill for the future. Also good. Maybe I'll learn coding too, later. It doesn't take years upon years to create a good product. However if I want to make an excellent product, I'll hire an excellent programmer.

Learning to sell is great, but if you don't have a dynamite product/service you aren't going to have huge success. Repeat business and referrals just won't happen with mediocrity. Here's a real life example from drug dealing 101.

I have a friend who says he can get a great deal on MDMA. So without due diligence I decide to split on it with him and I sell it to all my connections right away. Instant profit. Next day everybody hates me. The product barely got them high. Not that I want repeat business, selling drugs is a Moronic Risk, but if I did I'd be F*cked. So product quality is everything.

Point is this. If you want to have a successful business, you need to know the ins and outs of that industry, be it software, lawnmowers, pharmaceuticals, whatever. You simply won't create high quality without that knowledge.

 

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[RyanC]

Why learn ANYTHING when you can just outsource it? To develop yourself. To add another tool in your arsenal. To KNOW if people are ripping you off. A 10-hour project shouldn't be quoted 60+ hours. Same reason why you should know key financial concepts and their inner workings; know if your financial advisor is giving you good advice.

This sums up my opionion. If you don't know how something what you need is done, people will probably rip you off (especially when they think only in short terms and make fast money with you instead of winning you as a long term customer)
If I wouldn't know anything about coding and I want to make money in the software business, I would at least do a one month course to get the fundamentals of programming. That's an investment which will pay off in a short period of time. OR you know someone you can really trust...but yeah, those people are out there but hard to find.

Right know, I am reading books about copywriting because I think I need it. One week ago, I didn't even know what copywriting in my language means, now I feel like I could rule the world with my knowledge
Learning a completely new skill in a completely differnet field helps me a lot to develop new ideas.

 

[healthstatus]

I tried to read this thread from start to finish, but I couldn't

But you are going to teach yourself to program.

Why learn how to drive a car when you can just hire a chaufeur?

Because you can learn to drive well enough in 40 hours of focused effort a skill that will always have value, it will never get out of date. Insurance is cheap for when you screw up. A chauffeur costs you money forever, for some executives it is better to spend the money on a chauffeur as they can make more money in riding, than they can driving. Very similar to when you outsource programming and you make more money planning the marketing strategy and writing your copy or testing.

If you want to do anything in software business, then learning to program is very important.

No, it isn't. Programming, site design, database design, servers, cloud computing, security are all played at too high of a level for anyone that isn't committed to years of study to play at. Saying you can is like the 14 year old in his driveway shooting a basketball and saying he will be in the NBA in a few months.

I don't understand why everyone believes this, but people jump in and say they are going to be in the health supplement business like @zen******* but not be an MD or a nutritionist. What? The supplement guys/gals recognized a need for someone to lose weight, found a company that could make capsules for them with good ingredients, put a label on it and sold the heck out of it. How is that different than solving a problem with software? You don't think there are capsule manufacturers that take advantage of newbs?

This thread is now 18 months old. There were many posts throughout from people that want to tell me differently and that they were going to learn how to program in a few months, or that they were going to have learned enough that they didn't get ripped off. If you posted to this thread and said that you were going to learn programming I am calling you out. What did you learn? Where are your projects? Can you talk technical with really good programmers and feel confident they aren't blowing smoke up your butt? Step up and tell us. Was it simple? Did you learn the right programming language? Did you pick the right database to support your project? How is that user interface design going? I asked this about six months ago and got nothing. @DreamCreator you mentioned the ego thing, well, if people were learning programming and developing projects they would be coming back here and telling me how wrong I have been, 18 months and nothing. hmmmm, maybe I'm on to something.

 

[Wuz]

But you are going to teach yourself to program.


Because you can learn to drive well enough in 40 hours of focused effort a skill that will always have value, it will never get out of date. Insurance is cheap for when you screw up.


No, it isn't. Programming, site design, database design, servers, cloud computing, security are all played at too high of a level for anyone that isn't committed to years of study to play at. Saying you can is like the 14 year old in his driveway shooting a basketball and saying he will be in the NBA in a few months.

This thread is now 18 months old. There were many posts throughout from people that want to tell me differently and that they were going to learn how to program in a few months, or that they were going to have learned enough that they didn't get ripped off. If you posted to this thread and said that you were going to learn programming I am calling you out. What did you learn? Where are your projects? Can you talk technical with really good programmers and feel confident they aren't blowing smoke up your butt? Step up and tell us. Was it simple? Did you learn the right programming language? Did you pick the right database to support your project? How is that user interface design going? I asked this about six months ago and got nothing. @DreamCreator you mentioned the ego thing, well, if people were learning programming and developing projects they would be coming back here and telling me how wrong I have been, 18 months and nothing. hmmmm, maybe I'm on to something.

Everything you said is probably based on your experience,maybe you have gained some opportunities because you didn´t "wasted" time learning or improving your skills, but on the other hand you may not be able to come up with a new idea to implement in your business or business´s because you decide to "doing business" instead of "learn new components" of a business in a certain industry.

there is a big difference between only learning programming to justify their fear of failure in starting a new venture, and learn and aplly what is learned along the way.

its all about cost of opportunity, you may gain an hour of experience in "doing business", but you maybe lost one hour of studying a particular componet (skill) that could leverage your business to a new level.

Each of us now what is better for us at a certain point, some people prefer to outsorce others prefer to delegate certain componentes and focued on the core of the product service.

there is no right or wrong.

 

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[Ali]

Learning is learning and can never be regretted especially if you enjoy throughout the process and you have the time.

 

[healthstatus]

Learning is learning and can never be regretted especially if you enjoy throughout the process and you have the time.

I don't disagree with this at all, but that is not what this thread is about.

 

[Ali]

I don't disagree with this at all, but that is not what this thread is about.

I know what the thread is about and I meant to say that even if programming and code writing seems of low significance to your business idea there's no harm in learning how to do it yourself. You might really enjoy it and become so creative, or you might be able to pinpoint your exact requirements and write the code that does them for you better than any programmer in the world.

Even wonder why does Jackie Chan does all the stunt work in his movies while he could outsource it to a stunt master?

 

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[GuestUser112]

But you are going to teach yourself to program.


Because you can learn to drive well enough in 40 hours of focused effort a skill that will always have value, it will never get out of date. Insurance is cheap for when you screw up. A chauffeur costs you money forever, for some executives it is better to spend the money on a chauffeur as they can make more money in riding, than they can driving. Very similar to when you outsource programming and you make more money planning the marketing strategy and writing your copy or testing.


No, it isn't. Programming, site design, database design, servers, cloud computing, security are all played at too high of a level for anyone that isn't committed to years of study to play at. Saying you can is like the 14 year old in his driveway shooting a basketball and saying he will be in the NBA in a few months.

I don't understand why everyone believes this, but people jump in and say they are going to be in the health supplement business like @zen******* but not be an MD or a nutritionist. What? The supplement guys/gals recognized a need for someone to lose weight, found a company that could make capsules for them with good ingredients, put a label on it and sold the heck out of it. How is that different than solving a problem with software? You don't think there are capsule manufacturers that take advantage of newbs?

This thread is now 18 months old. There were many posts throughout from people that want to tell me differently and that they were going to learn how to program in a few months, or that they were going to have learned enough that they didn't get ripped off. If you posted to this thread and said that you were going to learn programming I am calling you out. What did you learn? Where are your projects? Can you talk technical with really good programmers and feel confident they aren't blowing smoke up your butt? Step up and tell us. Was it simple? Did you learn the right programming language? Did you pick the right database to support your project? How is that user interface design going? I asked this about six months ago and got nothing. @DreamCreator you mentioned the ego thing, well, if people were learning programming and developing projects they would be coming back here and telling me how wrong I have been, 18 months and nothing. hmmmm, maybe I'm on to something.

Do you read selectively? Why would I read 15 pages of this thread if the first 6 pages were 75% crap? It has nothing to do with the patience to learn how to program. Anyway, I said that IF I decided to go into the software business, I would learn as much as I could about programming. I also said that I would hire an excellent programmer. I'm not talking about learning the syntax of every language, I'm talking about learning the basics. You will not achieve a high level of success if you don't know the fundamentals of the business you're in. MJ knew the limo business, and he knew web development. The P90X guy knew physical fitness. Its a pretty basic principle. If you don't want to learn the basics of code and programming, don't go into the software business. The chances of you even identifying a need without knowing anything about the software market are fairly slim anyway.

Learning marketing/copy is a totally different issue. Whatever business you're in, you should learn marketing and copy...AND the basics of whatever business you're in.

Anyway Healthstatus you should reread your posts because your incessant need to argue with everybody has caused you to contradict yourself and waste everybody's time. You should have just titled the thread: "Learning to be a master programmer takes a very very long time".

 

[healthstatus]

You should have just titled the thread: "Learning to be a master programmer takes a very very long time".

sigh.... 2 years ago the few months before this thread started, every 10 days or so, someone was showing up on the forum saying, What language should I learn? What book should I read to learn to program? I have no money, so I am going to learn to program so I can create a site like Facebook, Pinterest, pick your flavor. They said in 6-8 weeks they would know enough to create a website that would take credit cards, database access, support thousands of users, blah blah... My point was, and still is, you can't learn it in that amount of time, it takes years and it is insulting to real professional programmers that you think you can do it so easily. AND that you would be better served to spend those 6-8 weeks learning how to write copy, make some money, then hire real professional programmers. I even have a couple of posts in the thread talking about my title being a copywriting lesson, and being controversial in your headline stimulates action (which now at 15 pages was quite successful). But since you didn't bother with all that, you wouldn't know.

Whatever business you're in, you should learn marketing and copy

I have been saying that for 15 pages and several years.