Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

[Brentnal]

So for three years while you learn, you still have no capital.

LOL :smx4: thats right but after 3 year you can make money but i am sure there are much faster ways

 

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[PedroG]

As a Software Engineer, I have to agree. I feel lucky that I have the necessary knowledge to build any project myself. I just cannot imagine having to learn everything that I know, in order to build something that I'm dying to sell. It's not worth it.

 

[Chronicelz]

Bevore i read this thread i thougth: Man you need to learn code. Now it think: Naw i need to learn that copywriting/advertising/marketing skills.

Thank you fastlaners

 

[dknise]

As a Software Engineer, I have to agree. I feel lucky that I have the necessary knowledge to build any project myself. I just cannot imagine having to learn everything that I know, in order to build something that I'm dying to sell. It's not worth it.

As a software engineer, would you recommend starting a software company without knowing a single thing about software?

 

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[PedroG]

As a software engineer, would you recommend starting a software company without knowing a single thing about software?

I guess that depends. It's a lot easier when at least one of the founders is technical I think. One of the problems is that it becomes hard to spot good and bad engineers. Someone not familiar with programming may not know if the people he's hiring are writing good code. Then of course, there's the cost problem. It's nice to not have to pay other people to build a product that you don't even know if you will be successful with. But obviously, not everyone has that luxury.

 

[mlcmartin]

You have to look at it from both ends. If a good programmer is going to give you his code in exchange for your money, then you better prove to him that you are a competent marketer who can act in his interest. Just like you want the programmer to be a good programmer and write good code in your interest. Otherwise a good programmer will not be motivated enough to offer you his code. And a smart programmer will demand good pay for high value work or go do the work for someone else who is willing to pay. So it all comes at a price. You have to really find people who are willing to do good work for minimal pay and that is a challenge on it's own. A full time job if you will, just like programming is.

Linus Torwalds who created linux is enjoing a good life even though he is not an advertiser. He gets his money in form of grants and pay for his talks and from universities. He can consult, he can write excellent software and he does not need to do any advertising because the linux community does all of that for him.

So you can find many examples of both good programmers and good marketers making it big - all of them do it by applying their natural skills to move forward. It is usually hard for a person who is a good programmer to do good marketing because the two tasks require two completely different sets of skills. The millionaire property developer is always at the mercy of his workers, just like the worker is always at the mercy of his boss. You have to realize this both as the worker and as the boss.

Usually a "programmer" or a "marketer" is who you are at heart. You can't simply change that. For a good programmer to learn marketing is just as useless as it is for a good marketer to learn programming. He will never be as good at something he is not.

 

[AureliusLin]

People try and justify learning to code by saying they don't have enough money to pay for app development. (and when I say app I mean any computer/web/phone code). If you learn to write copy, you can sell an affiliate product, or just write good text ads and make enough to pay for your app development.

I made my living for 20 years writing code and managing programmers, I have made a MUCH better living now that I write good copy. I know what I am talking about.

I have a couple of trips coming up, and I already have my sales letters ready to go to sell three different products from my website, these will generate me several thousand dollars of spending money for my trips. Learning to write good sales copy is like turning your computer into an ATM.

When you say you "write copy" do you mean you learned how to copyright?

What are some sources you recommend? I just searched up copyblogger.com

 

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[PedroG]

People try and justify learning to code by saying they don't have enough money to pay for app development. (and when I say app I mean any computer/web/phone code). If you learn to write copy, you can sell an affiliate product, or just write good text ads and make enough to pay for your app development.

I made my living for 20 years writing code and managing programmers, I have made a MUCH better living now that I write good copy. I know what I am talking about.

I have a couple of trips coming up, and I already have my sales letters ready to go to sell three different products from my website, these will generate me several thousand dollars of spending money for my trips. Learning to write good sales copy is like turning your computer into an ATM.

I've also been a Software Engineer for a while and I just recently started learning about copywriting. A few years back I also sold an ebook I wrote online, but I didn't know anything about copywriting back then. I made some money but nothing great. Now I'm seeing how powerful it is to know how to write copy.

I've spent months developing a software (SaaS) for restaurants which I am now ready to sell and I'm learning everything I can about copywriting.

Can you tell me what your process is for finding products to promote? I'm always afraid there are already too many people promoting the same product, and I find it hard to decide on what to promote.

Also, how did you get started doing this? What books did you read? Did you pay for a course? Right now I'm reading Dan Kennedy's "Ultimate Sales Letter" and I'm watching as many videos as I can, trying to learn as much as I can.

 

[healthstatus]

When you say you "write copy" do you mean you learned how to copyright?

What are some sources you recommend? I just searched up copyblogger.com

Writing sales letters and persuasive text. Use the search function on the forum for copywriting, there are a handful of good threads on that subject already.

 

[healthstatus]

Can you tell me what your process is for finding products to promote? I'm always afraid there are already too many people promoting the same product, and I find it hard to decide on what to promote.

Also, how did you get started doing this? What books did you read? Did you pay for a course? Right now I'm reading Dan Kennedy's "Ultimate Sales Letter" and I'm watching as many videos as I can, trying to learn as much as I can.

If you have traffic, then you ask your traffic what they are interested in and select a product based on that. Lots of places sell gum, they don't say oh that place down the street sells gum, so we won't. They say, my traffic likes gum, I am going to give them a chance to buy it here instead of going down the street.

I looked at successful copy, broke it down, analyzed it, read, took courses, as recommended above search the forum on copywriting for several good threads on the subject.

 

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[mememan]

I really enjoyed going through this thread and extracting some nuggets of wisdom. I actually joined the forum just to share my experience losing $10k outsourcing on sites like eLance and oDesk. If anyone's interested, please check it out here: https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/sh...Learn-from-a-Loser-How-I-Lost-10k-Outsourcing.

or spend months discussing your app with a developer who's native language isn't the same as yours & eventually give up as you couldn't communicate effectively or discover the developer couldn't really do the job.

This has definitely been my experience. However, it hasn't been painful enough so far for me to go crazy and decide to learn coding

The real annoyance for me is that I've described what I essentially a very simple site in multiple way - written specs, user stories, mockups, and even video - and it doesn't help get the idea across. At the very least, since this is a clone/copy site after all, I would like to be able to just point to the competitors like I have, described how they handing their data, and have something developed.

Discovering that the developer couldn't communicate effectively or couldn't really do the job are two reasons why I'm never doing hourly projects again unless there's a damn good reason to. Hourly just opens up too many "But I did the work! You can see from the screenshots!" arguments.

3) Check your coder pricing, I outsource some very complex projects to extremely talented coders that I pay about $3k/month

Absolutely the best tip on here. There was another post in the thread saying that $10k would cover your main coder for 4 months full time. So, as I always suspected, it is possible to find someone in the $15-$20 hourly range.

My two previous guys were $40-$50 and from Eastern Europe. Honestly, hourly rate doesn't mean much to me at this point. Both didn't produce a worthwhile product, and I've seen people charging even more who knew even less.

The problem is actually finding these $15-$20 guys. I never have them post on my jobs. Maybe I'll go through eLance by level and try to invite individuals with these listed rates and see what I get.

understand potential uses of open source apps and widely available templates --- so you don't get ripped off by someone who is just slapping your logo and copy on a template
understand that hardly anything these days needs to be built completely from scratch (incl data models). even if your business idea seems new, novel, like a really big deal... that's great, but the programming and database operations are almost certain to be nothing special, read/write/delete take input validate input apply business logic update db show output call api etc... yawn.
100% absolutely positively understand how/where your app is hosted, ownership of the domain, and how to get source code for the thing you're paying for

These are all super essential points. After looking at enough portfolios online, you'll notice that most people don't believe in the first two, mainly since all an acknowledgement of such resources does is reduced billable time.

In addition to this, I'd say subscription to such resources as well as any sort of project management tools are essential. I'm not moving forward on a project again until I find that person who can, like you'll read on HackerNews, take a theme, take an idea, and build something in a week or two.

 

[exige]

I'm not moving forward on a project again until I find that person who can, like you'll read on HackerNews, take a theme, take an idea, and build something in a week or two.

You will be looking for a long long time if you think you will find that person or people for $15-20 an hour. Guys like those on HackerNews are out there, and some of them do do projects to fund their endeavors - I have used them to help on projects before - but expect to pay market rates over 100/hr. However, it can be worth it at times to pay the price for talent.

 

[mememan]

You will be looking for a long long time if you think you will find that person or people for $15-20 an hour. Guys like those on HackerNews are out there, and some of them do do projects to fund their endeavors - I have used them to help on projects before - but expect to pay market rates over 100/hr. However, it can be worth it at times to pay the price for talent.

I don't have a problem turning over rocks. I know my biggest problem is that, each time before hiring, I always found just one person I felt comfortable with from the pool. I need at least 2-3 people next time. What is essential, and this would even be the case with a $100/hour provider, is that they need to utilize what's out there already. I just haven't seen anyone with experience like this.

Anyway, if it comes to needing to pay $100 hourly, that's not going to happen. I'd get more involved in something I personally have more experience in like stocks.

Even at that rate, someone out there is bound to say it's still not enough. Through HackerNews, I saw a developer map out building a SaaS app in their spare time and utilizing a ThemeForest design. It wasn't making a great amount of revenue, maybe $100-$500 monthly. I talked to him and was shocked at his rate. He was in Poland and billing out time in daily increments of $1k and "weren't aware of anyone charging $50-$75 in Poland." Per capita income is $20k in Poland. If I'm to pay an imputed $125k a year (rate x 1000 hours), I'll just find someone domestically since $125k goes a long way in parts of the US.

 

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[brycer9]

For the record.. there are coders out there who have excellent communication, excellent work, who do work quickly, and cheaply ($10/hour)

I believe repeat hire % is the most important number to look at - it should be above 30%

 

[healthstatus]

For the record.. there are coders out there who have excellent communication, excellent work, who do work quickly, and cheaply ($10/hour)

I believe repeat hire % is the most important number to look at - it should be above 30%

Yes, exactly.

I have an INSIDERS call where I go through my process to find coders/designers.

 

[healthstatus]

The real annoyance for me is that I've described what I essentially a very simple site in multiple way - written specs, user stories, mockups, and even video - and it doesn't help get the idea across.

Read that sentence and you may figure out the problem. If you have tried multiple outsourcers and are having these problems repeatedly you need to look at the constant in each scenario, you. You have to really slow your brain down and spell it out exactly.

At the very least, since this is a clone/copy site after all, I would like to be able to just point to the competitors like I have, described how they handing their data, and have something developed.

This is called laziness. If you can't put any effort into the front end and specifications how do you expect to attract the best programmers? When you create specifications, you are creating a sales document that is trying to attract the best talent. If talented coders look at your specs and go, oh crap, this guy is just half-asssing it now, there will be tons of changes, we have to fill in the blanks and write our specs, so the job never gets done and we don't get paid on time, no thanks.

 

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[mememan]

For the record.. there are coders out there who have excellent communication, excellent work, who do work quickly, and cheaply ($10/hour)

Well, it looks like I'll have to lower my rate expectations even more than. And I thought $15 hourly was cheap

I believe repeat hire % is the most important number to look at - it should be above 30%

This is absolute truth here. You want to see earnings and repeat clients. I would also look at the "recommended" figure. I've given people 5's and a thanks when I honestly knew I would never hire them again, but "not recommended" them since its an aggregate metric and what I rate is private.

Read that sentence and you may figure out the problem. If you have tried multiple outsourcers and are having these problems repeatedly you need to look at the constant in each scenario, you. You have to really slow your brain down and spell it out exactly.

You're not going to hear me disagreeing with you here. I screwed up. That's part of the reason why I rewrote my other post so many times since it always became too long with my experiences.

This is called laziness. If you can't put any effort into the front end and specifications how do you expect to attract the best programmers? When you create specifications, you are creating a sales document that is trying to attract the best talent.

I haven't done this though. I'm just using this as an example of how basic the web app is. I have created specs, drawings, mockups, etc.

However, I know one mistake I've made is not spelling out explicit "do it exactly this way" instructions. I've given some leeway, partly because, in my mind, someone can just look at the comparison sites and my comments on each and get an idea of how to structure it. That, and they're supposed to be the experts.

 

[healthstatus]

However, I know one mistake I've made is not spelling out explicit "do it exactly this way" instructions. I've given some leeway, partly because, in my mind, someone can just look at the comparison sites and my comments on each and get an idea of how to structure it. That, and they're supposed to be the experts.

They are expert coders (or at least good coders), not experts on the subject matter, and in many cases they don't understand what the end goal for you and the user is. I prefer to give over the top specs, and then add a line, "if you have any suggestions on how this might work better, please discuss them with me"

 

[chrisbiz4444]

In your opinion what is a more valuable skill to learn if your looking to freelance for start-up cash. What is more lucrative? Programming/coding, or copy-writing?

 

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[Gale4rc]

In your opinion what is a more valuable skill to learn if your looking to freelance for start-up cash. What is more lucrative? Programming/coding, or copy-writing?

Programming

Coding is a very valuable skill to have and if you're any good at it, it at least is a good fallback career at around $100k/yr

 

[Tom.V]

Programming

Coding is a very valuable skill to have and if you're any good at it, it at least is a good fallback career at around $100k/yr

Or if you can write good copy and place it in front of the eyes of your target demo, you can make millions per year.

I still stand behind my stance on this topic. If you already know some languages, code your own stuff and outsource the other aspects where you are weak. If you are strong at marketing and business, outsource your weak points. It's all a game guys, it is just dependent upon what skills you bring to the table.

 

[Gale4rc]

Or if you can write good copy and place it in front of the eyes of your target demo, you can make millions per year.



I still stand behind my stance on this topic. If you already know some languages, code your own stuff and outsource the other aspects where you are weak. If you are strong at marketing and business, outsource your weak points. It's all a game guys, it is just dependent upon what skills you bring to the table.

You would only make millions per year if you had your own product behind you, he was talking about for freelance.

There are many advantages to learning code:

Less startup capital needed to get a venture off the ground (little to zero)

You're in complete control of your projects, no partners needed. Marketing guys are a dime a dozen.

You're in complete control of your projects

You're in complete co....

Even if you outsource, if you don't speak code there is a higher chance of failure.

Also this guys arguement of : Technology changes by the time you learn the current. Somewhat true (frameworks stay the same for the most part) but, what you're missing is that once you know code you can understand it all. They are all very similar and work in similar ways. If you can learn to build in one back end language, you can learn another really easily. Also if it changes, it would only take a day to learn the changes.

 

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[Tom.V]

You would only make millions per year if you had your own product behind you, he was talking about for freelance.

You're in complete control of your projects, no partners needed. Marketing guys are a dime a dozen.

Even if you outsource, if you don't speak code there is a higher chance of failure.

I have come to the conclusion that you don't know what the F*ck you're talking about. Good day.

 

[Gale4rc]

I have come to the conclusion that you don't know what the F*ck you're talking about. Good day.

The ignorance on this forum is unreal.

Instead of giving an example myself, I will give a link that hopefully will change some peoples minds and learn why it's important to learn how to code or at least have a CTO/partner/consultant that can outsource correctly

http://www.quora.com/How-does-a-bus...eloper-programmer-engineer-on-eLance-or-oDesk

^ Some of the smartest people in the world on that site.

 

[dknise]

I have come to the conclusion that you don't know what the F*ck you're talking about. Good day.

I have come to the conclusion that you don't know what the F*ck you're talking about. Good day.

 

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[Twista]

I'm confused. Some of you guys are saying that I need to know programming to create a good business. Some of you are saying that I need to learn how to copywrite, learn marketing, and sales? WTF? Which one? lol

 

[healthstatus]

You would only make millions per year if you had your own product behind you, he was talking about for freelance.

Wrong, there are people on this forum making six figures a month, selling other peoples products, and leads.

There are many advantages to learning code:

Less startup capital needed to get a venture off the ground (little to zero)

You're in complete control of your projects, no partners needed. Marketing guys are a dime a dozen.

You're in complete control of your projects

You're in complete co....

Even if you outsource, if you don't speak code there is a higher chance of failure.

Also this guys arguement of : Technology changes by the time you learn the current. Somewhat true (frameworks stay the same for the most part) but, what you're missing is that once you know code you can understand it all. They are all very similar and work in similar ways. If you can learn to build in one back end language, you can learn another really easily. Also if it changes, it would only take a day to learn the changes.

And all that will only take you 3-5 years to really become a high level programmer that can create software that supports desktop/mobile, databases, ecommerce and won't get hacked. Enjoy eating nothing during that time.

Here are your options: 1) Learn to write copy good enough to make you some money in about 1 month, and be able to make a living at it in 6 months. 2) Learn to program which will take 2-5 years to become good enough to put a quality product out, then learn how to write copy so you can sell what you just created.

 

[Tom.V]

I went to a NIN concert last night and slept in this morning. When I woke up my programmer had emailed me a completed project that I will use to further automate the marketing of my sites.

Leaders > programmers

 

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[Gale4rc]

Wrong, there are people on this forum making six figures a month, selling other peoples products, and leads.

Obviously this is takes more skill then copy. (Building a website, affiliate marketing, choosing the right offer, optimizing coversions, etc ,etc) The argument was copy-writing alone VS programming. Please don't try to twist this.

Here are your options: 1) Learn to write copy good enough to make you some money in about 1 month, and be able to make a living at it in 6 months. 2) Learn to program which will take 2-5 years to become good enough to put a quality product out, then learn how to write copy so you can sell what you just created.

copywriting would probably take you almost 2 years to save up enough $ to outsource a decently made mobile app.

Right now i'm looking at 10-20k for a bare minimum web app BACK END only, then another $5-10k for the UI/UX designer and this is a very simple barebones app.

(and again this is outsourcing, we almost hired a ex-facebook developer at $50/hr and would've cost way more)

I went to a NIN concert last night and slept in this morning. When I woke up my programmer had emailed me a completed project that I will use to further automate the marketing of my sites.

Leaders > programmers

This is where the miscommunication is - Were not thinking about the same type of programming. I am thinking about Web apps + Mobile apps, not a simple process you are getting a programmer to automate. Who cares what languages they use for that but, if you are launching a web startup you better know something.

I'm confused. Some of you guys are saying that I need to know programming to create a good business. Some of you are saying that I need to learn how to copywrite, learn marketing, and sales? WTF? Which one? lol

You don't need to know programming to make a good business period. All i'm saying is if your business is a web startup/mobile app and you don't have a CTO/Some type of tech consultant, outsourcing is going to be very hard and they will likely do a horrible job without you having a clue.

 

[healthstatus]

Obviously this is takes more skill then copy. (Building a website, affiliate marketing, choosing the right offer, optimizing coversions, etc ,etc) The argument was copy-writing alone VS programming. Please don't try to twist this.

Maybe you should look at who started this thread, before you give me any rules on it. And obviously you know little to nothing about this side of it, as many offers allow you to push traffic directly to the affiliate page, so all you have to do is write 3 lines of ad copy.

copywriting would probably take you almost 2 years to save up enough $ to outsource a decently made mobile app.

Right now i'm looking at 10-20k for a bare minimum web app BACK END only, then another $5-10k for the UI/UX designer and this is a very simple barebones app.

(and again this is outsourcing, we almost hired a ex-facebook developer at $50/hr and would've cost way more)

You should join the INSIDERS and watch me outsource a native phone app, both IOS and android, I did it for a lot less than that, and had it in the store in about 8 weeks.

This is where the miscommunication is - Were not thinking about the same type of programming. I am thinking about Web apps + Mobile apps, not a simple process you are getting a programmer to automate. Who cares what languages they use for that but, if you are launching a web startup you better know something.

Right, I am talking about quality programming that is bug free, well documented and does what it is supposed to. What you need to know is; the pain your customer is in, how to solve it AND how to compel them to buy your solution. As stated many times previously in this thread, you don't have to know how to build a car to hire a mechanic, or have an MBA to start a business, or a law degree to hire an attorney.