I have a problem with MJ DeMarco (Follow your passion gets a beatdown)

[MJ DeMarco]

We're not opening another thread on this conversation, it's been beat to death here over that last 15 years.

My position remains clear and hasn't changed in nearly 2 decades.

Moved.

 

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[MitchC]

I’m asking this because I just spoke to a friend (who sold his business for 80m+) who says that entrepreneurs need to do the things their heart tells them to do while keeping an eye out for the commercial aspect of it.

We were talking about my business and It bothers me to say this, but I don’t really have a passion for the things I’m selling. I have to push myself sometimes to do necessary work, because I honestly don’t really care about what I’m selling. Even though my business is quite successful I feel that I lack the passion to continue on this pace in the coming years before I’m able to exit on a sum like his.

There are two ways of looking at this.

1. Change business because you will never excel in this field.
2. Man up and stop complaining.

I change between these two far to much and honestly it’s tiring me. I man up for a few weeks/months, but then the feeling that I don’t really like what I’m doing creeps in again. I then start to neglect things a little and I’m not completely on top of my stuff anymore. Is this my gut telling me I need to quit, or is it a weak part of my mind thats dragging me down?

- It would be really helpful for me if you can also give an indication of your business level when you respond. -

What’s motivating you to grow the business?

I enjoy mine and treat it a bit like a passion

It makes me enough to live a good life

Unfortunately I don’t think I’m particularly motivated to grow it beyond that

Which I don’t think is related to me having a passion for the business or not but rather the life I want to live

Maybe you are in a similar position?

I feel like if you really wanted the life of a big business owner you would just suck it up and grow the business

Also take what that guy said with a grain of salt, you don’t grow a business to 80m because you are passionate about it, that’s hard work and an insane commitment whether you are passionate or not. He could have cruised and been passionate and not grown to 80m.

 

[MTF]

I’m asking this because I just spoke to a friend (who sold his business for 80m+) who says that entrepreneurs need to do the things their heart tells them to do while keeping an eye out for the commercial aspect of it.

We were talking about my business and It bothers me to say this, but I don’t really have a passion for the things I’m selling. I have to push myself sometimes to do necessary work, because I honestly don’t really care about what I’m selling. Even though my business is quite successful I feel that I lack the passion to continue on this pace in the coming years before I’m able to exit on a sum like his.

There are two ways of looking at this.

1. Change business because you will never excel in this field.
2. Man up and stop complaining.

I change between these two far to much and honestly it’s tiring me. I man up for a few weeks/months, but then the feeling that I don’t really like what I’m doing creeps in again. I then start to neglect things a little and I’m not completely on top of my stuff anymore. Is this my gut telling me I need to quit, or is it a weak part of my mind thats dragging me down?

- It would be really helpful for me if you can also give an indication of your business level when you respond. -

Quit this business, start a business based on your passion, be passionate for a few weeks or months as you make $0 and eventually grow to hate your passion and wish you stayed with a business that was working well for you.

I 100% agree with @MitchC. Your business is a tool for a better life.

Mentally associate it with your dream lifestyle. Figure out how to get more with less effort.

In your free time, do things you love just for the sake of doing them, not because you want to make money out of them.

 

[Sirrom]

To be clear, I really like Real Estate and I could 100% make good money with it. It’s not like I want to build a business about scuba diving or something…

If I’m not doing this business, I will be active in RE.

@MitchC I think you’re correct on the big business owner thing. I always thought I wanted hundreds of millions, but actually I would be very happy with a 1m/yr income. This seems much easier to reach than a 500m net worth. It does make me realize though that my business goals (500m net worth) and life goals (good life, 1m/yr, living multiple countries, doing cool shit) are not really congruent.

 

[TheFrancophile]

What if you were on your deathbed and ..

Suddenly you weren't because ..

You spent your life building wealth and ..

You funded life-extending products that actually worked and ..

You used those products to extend your life indefinitely and ..

You had an infinite amount of time to learn guitar because ..

ugh.

If you're on your deathbed regretting not learning guitar, it's because you believe there's no chance to survive.

Or ..

You don't have the will to fight for your survival so you just gave up.

In either case:

A) Believing you don't stand a chance
B) Not having the will to fight

You lose. Same with business.

If you're nearly dead and believe there's a chance to survive, you wouldn't give a shit about guitar. You would only care about doing what it takes to survive.

It's basic human psychology.

Maslow's Hierarchy level 1 = survival

So even if your theoretical situation were real ..

Guitar would almost certainly be the furthest thing from your mind.

And if there's 0 chance you will live.

Then it doesn't matter anyway.

Because when you're dead, you're dead.

Game over.

(Unless you believe in an afterlife in which case you'll have plenty of time to learn guitar there.)

Yep, survival is everyone's absolute priority. It's the basic imperative for everyone on this planet.

And obviously, the starting point of any business needs to be a poorly-met customer need, or a customer's problem (that he/she may or may not be aware of).

People don't care if you're passionate about the saxophone (no offense to any saxophone players).

However, if it's a real customer problem worth solving, you can bet there are other people (your competitors) working to solve it, or even offering a solution today.

In other words, you'll always have competition.

You'll also need to become a master of your trade, prospect, get rejected, and still keep prospecting until you find customers. In other words, you'll need to GRIND for a long time. And for that, you'll need some "motivational fuel" to keep fighting.

Now, that motivation can be a desire to free yourself from poverty (as was the case for MJ DeMarco and, I suppose, many other contributors to this forum).
Or it can be passion for something (e.g. wine or cars).

In any case, you'll need STRONG motivational fuel to overcome the daily rejections (or the daily disappointments when, initially, several weeks pass without anyone ordering your product online).

You'll also need STRONG motivational fuel to develop/master the PRODUCT/SERVICE you'll be selling, before you can sell anything.

It's unlikely that the desire of money alone (and of the freedom it procures, which, as we can all agree, is very important) will keep you grinding.

The bottom line is that NO ONE can achieve anything great without a strong motivation. For some people, it can be passion; for some others, a deeply ingrained desire for financial independence. Every person is different.

 

[NickVGreen]

First of all I have read the Fastlane Millionaire every year for the past 3 years or so. I love the book. And yes I already order Unscripted I'm still waiting for it in the mail.

I respect MJ DeMarco and his work but since the the first time I read his book I can't get over the fact that he says that money is more important than your passion. That doing what you love will not make you rich.

Imagine you're on your deathbed sweaty, nervous, trying your best to stay awake because you know that as soon as you go to sleep that will be the last time you close your eyes. You're dying on a 24k gold bedframe. But you don't care nor notice all that, you keep going back to that one thing you always wanted to be. A guitarist.

That was your dream and what you enjoyed most. But it wasn't paying the bills or putting food on the table. Nobody was buying your music either because they were been torrented. Yet you still enjoyed yourself and could survive off ramen noodles as long as your guitar was properly tuned.

But the pressure from your family to provide food and shelter made you take a detour on your dream. That detour led to riches but it also robbed you of your time with your precious guitar. Yet everytime you saw your dusty guitar in the coner of your room you told yourself next week I'll have free time to play. But you never did.

And yes I know money can buy you some good guitar lessons, your own record label, and even a recording studio. But unless you're Fastlane it won't give you time. So you either choose to strive to be rich or to follow your passion. Comfort in life or regret while dying.

Both passion and riches are essential for your life so is it possible to combine them both? Or are we forever force to decide for either or?

MJ provides the example of his take on the rich-man-poor-fisherman story. In the original story, we are supposed to be amazed by the wisdom of the poor fisherman, who lives the apparent dream life of the rich man without having "wasted" his life pursuing wealth first. MJ points out that the poor fisherman, by being poor/without monetary wealth, is far more vulnerable to having his life disrupted by forces beyond his control whereas the rich man has options if the situation changes. By pursuing wealth first, you buy yourself the buffer to do whatever you want while shielding yourself from the whims of others (governments, people with greater wealth, the neighborhood busybodies).

Others (and maybe MJ too) also point out that passion will often come from the work rather than before the work. We often get passionate about the things and fields we know something about. For example, having hosted many parties and dinners, I have strong opinions on what is acceptable and what is just downright wrong when hosting. The same goes for fiction stories and characters. So if you pursue something consistently, even if you initially don't feel strongly about it, you will begin to develop feelings about it and eventually a passion for it (even though that passion may sometimes be against it).


Ultimately though, it comes down to what you want and what trade-offs you are most willing to make to achieve the things you want.

 

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[Vamsi Interviews]

One thing that stood out to me in The Millionaire Fastlane was that MJ didn't have a one-size-fits-all definition of wealth or success. The Lamborghini represented that freedom to him, but he also understood that everyone's idea of financial freedom and independence would be different. Show me an artist who is financially independent and you'll see someone who is able to pursue their passions and live whatever life they want because they built financial independence. I also think the Fastlane process can and should be intrinsically enjoyable. It certainly seems like a far more enjoyable way to live my life than in the slow lane, working a steady job and saving every month. That would only work for me if I genuinely loved that job. And when you're working on Fastlane progress, you have a lot more control to make your business or job something you enjoy working on.

 

[MomentumMaker]

One thing that stood out to me in The Millionaire Fastlane was that MJ didn't have a one-size-fits-all definition of wealth or success. The Lamborghini represented that freedom to him, but he also understood that everyone's idea of financial freedom and independence would be different. Show me an artist who is financially independent and you'll see someone who is able to pursue their passions and live whatever life they want because they built financial independence. I also think the Fastlane process can and should be intrinsically enjoyable. It certainly seems like a far more enjoyable way to live my life than in the slow lane, working a steady job and saving every month. That would only work for me if I genuinely loved that job. And when you're working on Fastlane progress, you have a lot more control to make your business or job something you enjoy working on.

"I also think the Fastlane process can and should be intrinsically enjoyable." Yes.

Although I've just started my journey from the sidewalk to the Fastlane, I am already thoroughly enjoying my new path. Several years ago, I read The ONE Thing by Gary Keller. One concept that stood out for me is: "You’re already living large if you are working on a big dream." While I believe you're truly living large when you're actually achieving those dreams, Keller's point is valid. Working on a big dream is intrinsically enjoyable and valuable.

 

[Antifragile]

I’m asking this because I just spoke to a friend (who sold his business for 80m+) who says that entrepreneurs need to do the things their heart tells them to do while keeping an eye out for the commercial aspect of it.

We were talking about my business and It bothers me to say this, but I don’t really have a passion for the things I’m selling. I have to push myself sometimes to do necessary work, because I honestly don’t really care about what I’m selling. Even though my business is quite successful I feel that I lack the passion to continue on this pace in the coming years before I’m able to exit on a sum like his.

There are two ways of looking at this.

1. Change business because you will never excel in this field.
2. Man up and stop complaining.

I change between these two far to much and honestly it’s tiring me. I man up for a few weeks/months, but then the feeling that I don’t really like what I’m doing creeps in again. I then start to neglect things a little and I’m not completely on top of my stuff anymore. Is this my gut telling me I need to quit, or is it a weak part of my mind thats dragging me down?

Passion?

It's like being crazy about your hobbies. Imagine you're obsessed with racing supercars. You had the time of your life once, driving a Ferrari 488 in Vegas, feeling like a teenager on prom night. But then, you're stuck doing it 12-16 hours a day, every day, like a hamster on a wheel. Suddenly, it's not so fun anymore. The thrill is gone, and you're just another driver on the track.

In business, passion is like a rollercoaster. It goes up and down, but it doesn't really matter. What's important is your interest.

Are you getting more or less interested in whatever you do in your business? The more you do something, the more you should get interested in knowing more about it. The more interested you are, the better you'll seek out answers to new and novel problems, the more you'll find solutions. You need deeper knowledge to outperform competition.

Your success will be based on your own curiosity and determination.

- It would be really helpful for me if you can also give an indication of your business level when you respond. -

Medium size business, with employees, partners, investors etc.

 

[Saint]

Contributing a thought I had (sorry if it's already been covered) to this discussion.

I've heard a lot of versions of:

Running a business looks the same no matter what it is - you're strategizing, hiring, firing, delegating, selling, allocating resources, etc., so who cares what the business is?

The second part of the argument does not follow. You could replace "so who cares what the business is" with "so it might as well be something you're innately interested in" just as logically.

The fact that running a business is ultimately a totally separate set of skills and efforts from the activities of a hobby/interest/"passion" doesn't imply that the industry/market you might serve doing it isn't relevant.

Every industry/market has needs. You can build a great business in any. Ultimately, building a business is gonna be a similar grind in any, and you better learn to love that grind. If you're fascinated by music, why not build in the music industry instead of the construction industry? Of course you still have to serve a need, do all the business things, etc.

I agree with DeMarco, Emyth, and many others about the pitfalls of "following your passion". Especially when it comes to the specific things you love doing. But it's hit me as I've been evaluating buying or starting various kinds of businesses that I might as well be dedicated to the grind in something I actually want to fill my mind with.

Even if you're an "entrepreneur" focused on "the business", you're most likely going to have to become an expert on the industry/market. You can't run a cleaning business without knowing every in and out of how cleaning and cleaning businesses works. Do you want to fill your mind with that? Some people totally do. I'd hate it. But some people hate data. I love it. There are a million opportunities in data. For me then, why not focus on serving needs and building businesses in data instead of home cleaning?

 

[WJK]

Contributing a thought I had (sorry if it's already been covered) to this discussion.

I've heard a lot of versions of:



The second part of the argument does not follow. You could replace "so who cares what the business is" with "so it might as well be something you're innately interested in" just as logically.

The fact that running a business is ultimately a totally separate set of skills and efforts from the activities of a hobby/interest/"passion" doesn't imply that the industry/market you might serve doing it isn't relevant.

Every industry/market has needs. You can build a great business in any. Ultimately, building a business is gonna be a similar grind in any, and you better learn to love that grind. If you're fascinated by music, why not build in the music industry instead of the construction industry? Of course you still have to serve a need, do all the business things, etc.

I agree with DeMarco, Emyth, and many others about the pitfalls of "following your passion". Especially when it comes to the specific things you love doing. But it's hit me as I've been evaluating buying or starting various kinds of businesses that I might as well to the grind in something I actually want to fill my mind with.

Even if you're an "entrepreneur" focused on "the business", you're most likely going to have to become an expert on the industry/market. You can't run a cleaning business without knowing every in and out of how cleaning and cleaning businesses works. Do you want to fill your mind with that? Some people totally do. I'd hate it. But some people hate data. I love it. There are a million opportunities in data. For me then, why not focus on serving needs and building businesses in data instead of home cleaning?

You will live, eat, and breathe whatever business you build 24/7 for a long, long time. If you don't really love it when you start, you will love it by the time you make it successful. (Or you will fail and quit.) I agree. Following your passion is a fool's folly. But, you can choose something that is in that same business section that has a chance of success, and run with it. Good luck!

 

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[Kevin88660]

Passion is a good bonus. You definitely need it if you are a designer, artist, or an athlete.

But it is overrated in business.

The survival of your business is less correlated with the passion of the founder but more dependent on how much of a pain in an a$$ the problem is for the clients.

Just looks at the bill of a typical consumer. They spend 20 percent of their budget on what they love and enjoy but 80 percent of their budget on what they have to pay to survive.

Don’t choose a business because you love doing the work. Choose a need because your clients cannot run away from it.

 

[wal]

My takeaway from that comment was:

Spend 5-10 years making a fastlane business that will generate you income for the rest of your life, then spend the rest of your life doing what you love without the need for money getting in the way. Then it doesn't matter how much you make, you can just do it and enjoy it.

If it takes you until you're basically dead to make enough money to do that, then you've definitely done something wrong. You've not provided enough value to the people of the world, or been selfless enough to solve other peoples problems.

But like others say, enjoy yourself at the same time, just do it reasonably, or don't and enjoy yourself after the fact, when you're swimming in unlimited income with everything you've ever wanted, including the time and freedom to do what you love.

 

[WJK]

My takeaway from that comment was:

Spend 5-10 years making a fastlane business that will generate you income for the rest of your life, then spend the rest of your life doing what you love without the need for money getting in the way. Then it doesn't matter how much you make, you can just do it and enjoy it.

If it takes you until you're basically dead to make enough money to do that, then you've definitely done something wrong. You've not provided enough value to the people of the world, or been selfless enough to solve other peoples problems.

But like others say, enjoy yourself at the same time, just do it reasonably, or don't and enjoy yourself after the fact, when you're swimming in unlimited income with everything you've ever wanted, including the time and freedom to do what you love.

I see it totally differently. Getting to one of the huge end goals and crossing it off of my list was an empty moment for me. What then? Do you make another big goal? Do you start over again -- find another mountain to climb? Do you lay on your couch and binge-watch a bunch of TV shows you never had time to watch before?

For the first time, you have the time to get sick and actually stay in bed until you feel better. You can travel and stay until you are ready to go home or get bored. You can use your art studio 24/7, project after project. There's tons of stuff you can do that you haven't had time for.

Here's what I learned over the journey:

My desires and passions have changed remarkably. My very reasons for taking the journey no longer even moved me. I simply didn't care anymore.

I no longer needed to impress others with my success because I had out-distanced those people long ago. And I learned there is always someone with more, better, or something new. So that comparison no longer mattered. At my age, who was I going to impress?

I became the worst consumer -- a minimalist. Possessions had become a burden rather than a burning goal. I'll let someone else take care of that stuff, insure it, and store it. I'll rent it IF I really need it. Or buy it for that job or situation. Then it must find a new home. Think about this: Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, sold all of his houses and now he lives where he is. He still works 80 to 90 hours per week. And he's always done that. He started coding when he was 10 years old.

I still work daily because I love to play the RE game. Making deals is fun.

And, I change other people's lives for the better, through creatively using my assets and control. My rental business has allowed me to create a community of people who help each other and improve their own lives. The kids all run around and play together. It's a safe place to live and grow. My assistant says that I am the "Queen of Chaos". There's always something happening here. It's not scalable, but it is a productocracy.

Allow yourself to see past your current goals and passions. Allow yourself to change and grow. Track those changes and learn to enjoy the wisdom you gain along the way. Arriving is not the end game. It's enjoying the journey.

 

[srodrigo]

If my passion is playing the ocarina, chances are I'm screwed. But if my passion is something with a market, the chances change.

Maybe it's a terminology issue, I don't care whether you call it passion or purpose. But at the end of the day, what matters to create a great service or product is to work on something that starts from the inside.

"Build any business, just help people" - Wrong. I can't make a successful luxury handbags business because I don't give a f about handbags and even less about the people buying them (no hate, just not my type). Not to mention I know nothing about it so I'd need to spend years learning something I don't give a crap about. Basically setting myself up for failure.

But I do know about software, there are plenty of opportunities, and I really want to make great software that people love to use. I do enjoy the process and can learn at a faster speed than the average Joe.

So, genuine question for the "just build any business" folks: what business do I have a higher chance of success at?

If you aren't invested into what you are doing, you are not going to make it. This is why there are so many subpar services and products out there. This is why you see folks here starting a "my webdesign agency" thread and you never hear from them. No one cares that you hate your boss and your 9-5 and you are chasing money building a business you don't care about other than the zero's in your bank account.

If you aren't invested and don't have a purpose that comes from inside, you are at a massive disadvantage. Average doesn't cut it anymore, everything is saturated. So you better deliver something great because you can't wait to do it, not because it looks like a better venue. And, of course, what you care about needs to have a market (i.e. not playing the ocarina) and people ready to throw money at you when you overdeliver. But your inner drive is more important that bullshitting yourself about helping strangers for no apparent reason; that's money chasing with some makeup. Nothing wrong with the fire starting from inside, that's how you end up helping random strangers and getting paid for it.

 

[wal]

I see it totally differently. Getting to one of the huge end goals and crossing it off of my list was an empty moment for me. What then? Do you make another big goal? Do you start over again -- find another mountain to climb? Do you lay on your couch and binge-watch a bunch of TV shows you never had time to watch before?

For the first time, you have the time to get sick and actually stay in bed until you feel better. You can travel and stay until you are ready to go home or get bored. You can use your art studio 24/7, project after project. There's tons of stuff you can do that you haven't had time for.

Here's what I learned over the journey:

My desires and passions have changed remarkably. My very reasons for taking the journey no longer even moved me. I simply didn't care anymore.

I no longer needed to impress others with my success because I had out-distanced those people long ago. And I learned there is always someone with more, better, or something new. So that comparison no longer mattered. At my age, who was I going to impress?

I became the worst consumer -- a minimalist. Possessions had become a burden rather than a burning goal. I'll let someone else take care of that stuff, insure it, and store it. I'll rent it IF I really need it. Or buy it for that job or situation. Then it must find a new home. Think about this: Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, sold all of his houses and now he lives where he is. He still works 80 to 90 hours per week. And he's always done that. He started coding when he was 10 years old.

I still work daily because I love to play the RE game. Making deals is fun.

And, I change other people's lives for the better, through creatively using my assets and control. My rental business has allowed me to create a community of people who help each other and improve their own lives. The kids all run around and play together. It's a safe place to live and grow. My assistant says that I am the "Queen of Chaos". There's always something happening here. It's not scalable, but it is a productocracy.

Allow yourself to see past your current goals and passions. Allow yourself to change and grow. Track those changes and learn to enjoy the wisdom you gain along the way. Arriving is not the end game. It's enjoying the journey.

I get where you're coming from completely. I think change is inevitable during a journey like this, and I go through at least 2 to 3 big changes a year I would say, where my beliefs and visions change completely, usually due to knowledge gained or experiences happened.

All I know is that right now I know what I want, and that will keep me working hard, if that changes, it's okay, I'll use the next thing to keep me going.

I already know I love helping people, and have been slightly discouraged trying to help people that don't want to accept that help, but I know I can help people that want to be helped, in many different ways and I know that makes me feel good, it will definitely play a big part in my life, no matter where I'm at.

Having unlimited income and assets like you say, just makes it so much easier to do that.

If I didn't let myself change, I'd be doing myself a disservice, and I'm glad you mentioned that, because it just confirms that to me. Thank you.

Hope you're well.

 

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[WJK]

I get where you're coming from completely. I think change is inevitable during a journey like this, and I go through at least 2 to 3 big changes a year I would say, where my beliefs and visions change completely, usually due to knowledge gained or experiences happened.

All I know is that right now I know what I want, and that will keep me working hard, if that changes, it's okay, I'll use the next thing to keep me going.

I already know I love helping people, and have been slightly discouraged trying to help people that don't want to accept that help, but I know I can help people that want to be helped, in many different ways and I know that makes me feel good, it will definitely play a big part in my life, no matter where I'm at.

Having unlimited income and assets like you say, just makes it so much easier to do that.

If I didn't let myself change, I'd be doing myself a disservice, and I'm glad you mentioned that, because it just confirms that to me. Thank you.

Hope you're well.

So, start looking at retirement again. People retire and it's common that they die or get sick. They get depressed. They lose their purpose and their working social circle. Then others are busier than when they were working and they are fully engaged in their lives. They are happy and involved. I believe it is a combination of their expectations and preparations.

 

[WJK]

wal, I was doing a chore and watching it snow when I realized that we are talking oranges and apples. (Yes, I was thinking about our conversation.) There's a much deeper subject here.

Your purpose for working is to make money so you can do what you want. That's the surface issue.

Ask yourself: Is what you want worthy enough for you to spend your life's blood and time going for it? How much is enough? When will you know to stop? If you are not happy during the journey, will you be happy with the results?

The deeper issues are your relationship to the concept of money and wealth. I learned that IF you are not happy when you are broke and struggling, money and wealth cannot fix it. Sitting on a pile of money is like magnifying glass. Whatever you were before, you are more so after collecting your pile of wealth. I know people who have that black hole in their hearts. They reach their goal and then they'd be off to the races for the next ring, and the next, and the next... They'd never find that sense of happiness and contentment.

When I was young, I thought I'd be happy when I accomplished or acquired _______. Then I got really sick and wasn't expected to live. It dawned on me that I might not wake up tomorrow. What was wrong with being happy today with what I was doing at that moment? What could I do every day to make myself happy?

Don't think I am against making money. I learned those skills long ago. And the skills to be a good steward of that pile of money are also important. What I am saying is to find the type of business that engages your soul and mind. I'm not talking about following your passion off of the cliff. I am talking about finding something where you won't resent working at it while your friends are playing. You will pass up the whole world that you currently know and leave all of the people around you behind. You have heard of the 5% club? That means that you'll have 95% of the other people back in your dust.

Another issue is, what are you going to do with the power that comes with that pile of money? But that is for another conversation.

 

[wal]

wal, I was doing a chore and watching it snow when I realized that we are talking oranges and apples. (Yes, I was thinking about our conversation.) There's a much deeper subject here.

Your purpose for working is to make money so you can do what you want. That's the surface issue.

Ask yourself: Is what you want worthy enough for you to spend your life's blood and time going for it? How much is enough? When will you know to stop? If you are not happy during the journey, will you be happy with the results?

The deeper issues are your relationship to the concept of money and wealth. I learned that IF you are not happy when you are broke and struggling, money and wealth cannot fix it. Sitting on a pile of money is like magnifying glass. Whatever you were before, you are more so after collecting your pile of wealth. I know people who have that black hole in their hearts. They reach their goal and then they'd be off to the races for the next ring, and the next, and the next... They'd never find that sense of happiness and contentment.

When I was young, I thought I'd be happy when I accomplished or acquired _______. Then I got really sick and wasn't expected to live. It dawned on me that I might not wake up tomorrow. What was wrong with being happy today with what I was doing at that moment? What could I do every day to make myself happy?

Don't think I am against making money. I learned those skills long ago. And the skills to be a good steward of that pile of money are also important. What I am saying is to find the type of business that engages your soul and mind. I'm not talking about following your passion off of the cliff. I am talking about finding something where you won't resent working at it while your friends are playing. You will pass up the whole world that you currently know and leave all of the people around you behind. You have heard of the 5% club? That means that you'll have 95% of the other people back in your dust.

Another issue is, what are you going to do with the power that comes with that pile of money? But that is for another conversation.

I'm happy to hear our conversation got you thinking outside of browsing on the forum! That gives me great joy.

I've done a lot of thinking about what I actually want from life currently, and what I am working towards in the future. I can say that yes I like cars, but my dream is not to own a Lamborghini, I like houses, but do not require a mansion. The thing that I enjoy the most out of life is having great relationships with my friends and family, loving someone unconditionally and one day, having a family of my own. I feel that deep in my heart, that, right now, is all I want.

Most of my family's problems are caused by money, they are typical poor people, letting it run their lives and basing all of their opinions on how much things are, or what "value" they are getting out of it (is it cheap enough to be considered valuable), if there's a chance I could take that away, then I think it would make a big difference. I also know a lot of problems in relationships come from stresses about finances and can we afford x and y etc. So if I've got that income then I can just focus on being happy with the people I love and enjoy spending time with.

I feel like I've done well when I accomplish my goals now, but I also taught myself to relax and wind down when I need to, I love spending time with my friends and am working on doing that with my family too, I believe my reasons are in the right place, and I'm not just doing this to have loads of money and live the lifestyle everyone dreams of, although that is quite the bonus to add!

Right now what I do enables me to work with one of my good friends every single day, as well as work with another one of my friends on another project which is highly rewarding, the only thing that stops me from being happy on a day to day basis is loneliness, but if I've been social and done a shit tonne of hard work during the day, I relax in the evening feeling absolutely amazing.

Maybe I need to look at how I come across in my wording when I talk about stuff like this. Thank you for questioning me and making me think, self-reflection is my favorite activity.

PS. Would love to have a conversation about the power that comes with wealth like that.

 

[Kevin88660]

The deeper issues are your relationship to the concept of money and wealth. I learned that IF you are not happy when you are broke and struggling, money and wealth cannot fix it. Sitting on a pile of money is like magnifying glass. Whatever you were before, you are more so after collecting your pile of wealth. I know people who have that black hole in their hearts. They reach their goal and then they'd be off to the races for the next ring, and the next, and the next... They'd never find that sense of happiness and contentment.

I hear this a lot in the forum repeated by different people but not something I could not comprehend. That you won’t feel happy with money unless you are already happy when being broke.

I literally feel much more happier when monthly business revenue increased by $500. When it increased by minimum 1-2k I believe it has positive mental and health benefit on me.

The deeper issues are your relationship to the concept of money and wealth.

Apart from health, money imo is more real than 95 percent of the things that people hold dear to.

There are two things in the world. Ideas and money.

Ideas need money to be realized but your money is your loyal solider that doesn’t judge you on how you want to use this monetary energy.

Without money every idea becomes an empty wish.

Another saying to say the same thing is every idea is a good idea until we come to the question to discuss on who is going to pay for it.

 

[BizyDad]

I literally feel much more happier when monthly business revenue increased by $500. When it increased by minimum 1-2k I believe it has positive mental and health benefit on me.

Is it literally the number increasing in your bank account that has the effect? Or perhaps it is the accomplishment? If the number increased 50000 would it have 100x impact?

I think your points are simplistic and spoken as someone who has not had a lot of money at any point.

If the literal $500 or $2000 is making you happier, then you are still working to "make it". Come back to this discussion once you've "made it".

 

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[Kevin88660]

Is it literally the number increasing in your bank account that has the effect? Or perhaps it is the accomplishment? If the number increased 50000 would it have 100x impact?

I think your points are simplistic and spoken as someone who has not had a lot of money at any point.

If the literal $500 or $2000 is making you happier, then you are still working to "make it". Come back to this discussion once you've "made it".

It is recurring in nature therefore I am mentally taking account the PV equivalent.

I just don’t get the idea of “you need to be happy when being broke.”

Of course there is diminishing marginal utility of wealth which is well understood.

An extra million makes no difference to a billionaire but doesn’t mean he needs to master the art of being happy when he was broke.

It’s like telling a sick patient he needs to feel happy instead of focusing on the cure.

I don’t need to be rich to make the argument. I am making the argument that being poor or being not rich is no fun.

I celebrate every small win in my mind. The sense of accomplishment plays a small part. Part of it because philosophically I view money as more “real” than 95 percent of things people attach meanings or emotions to.

That if you are not rich or born rich, and you don’t spend a bulk of your day thinking about money related topics, you must be hyper-delusional. This is what I feel authentically. I understand that this is not the social norm. They see me as crazy and I view them as crazy as well.

 

[BizyDad]

I just don’t get the idea of “you need to be happy when being broke.”

Do you even want to "get it" though?

I don’t need to be rich to make the argument.

Ok, but I wasn't responding to get baited into an argument. Sounds like you want to hold onto your point and not actually understand where this concept comes from.

This isn't that hard to understand. Money as a source of happiness is an empty thing. There are books, movies, and stories throughout time illustrating this concept, which are a reflection of... reality.

Generally it is the things that money empowers us to do that brings happiness.

But happiness is not a replacement for fulfillment, and fulfillment tends to come from a sense of purpose or accomplishment.

On some level there can be overlap in these two things. The positions aren't mutually exclusive.

Hope that helps you understand. If this is becoming a sharing of different opinions, then I'll just be happy for you and that your worldview works for you.

 

[WJK]

Do you even want to "get it" though?



Ok, but I wasn't responding to get baited into an argument. Sounds like you want to hold onto your point and not actually understand where this concept comes from.

This isn't that hard to understand. Money as a source of happiness is an empty thing. There are books, movies, and stories throughout time illustrating this concept, which are a reflection of... reality.

Generally it is the things that money empowers us to do that brings happiness.

But happiness is not a replacement for fulfillment, and fulfillment tends to come from a sense of purpose or accomplishment.

On some level there can be overlap in these two things. The positions aren't mutually exclusive.

Hope that helps you understand. If this is becoming a sharing of different opinions, then I'll just be happy for you and that your worldview works for you.

I agree. Some of my happiest days were before my success. And I have tons of happiness now. I also agree with your comments that fullfillment is related to finding your purpose. It's a much deeper concept.

 

[WJK]

I hear this a lot in the forum repeated by different people but not something I could not comprehend. That you won’t feel happy with money unless you are already happy when being broke.

I literally feel much more happier when monthly business revenue increased by $500. When it increased by minimum 1-2k I believe it has positive mental and health benefit on me.


Apart from health, money imo is more real than 95 percent of the things that people hold dear to.

There are two things in the world. Ideas and money.

Ideas need money to be realized but your money is your loyal solider that doesn’t judge you on how you want to use this monetary energy.

Without money every idea becomes an empty wish.

Another saying to say the same thing is every idea is a good idea until we come to the question to discuss on who is going to pay for it.

For me, there are 3 things in the world. I'd add relationships to your list and that would be the first one. That includes my people skills and connections. I know people with piles of money who are so lonely and unhappy. They are grasping at finding the right formula or the "thing" to complete their lives. I have also known people with piles of money who killed themselves either by suicide or slowly with drugs and drinking. Conversely, I have known people who have used their wealth to remake their worlds into a much better place and the people living there much happier. It's not the amount of money that these people spend. It's all how they spend it and on whom.

Money can be used to expand your world or to cut you off from meaningful experiences. It's just a tool and it's fungible. Every dollar looks like the next and can replaced. I can always make more money. It's my relationships with other people that are unique and special. And it's those relationships, and how I manage them, that make me attractive to money. It just flows in my direction these days. It's taken me a lifetime of struggles and work to set up that pipeline.

I hear you and I understand your struggles. No, I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I am a self-made woman who fought every step of the way. I started with nothing and my odds of succeeding were terrible. Women in my era were stay at home moms with a house full of kids. I've worked just about every day since I was 11 years old. I've also raised two families over the years. My kids are in their early 50s. Then I have 2 step kids around 30 years old. Now, I'm a senior citizen and I officially retired 22 years ago from my professional practice. And I still put in around 60 hours a week. I've earned everything I have. Nothing was given to me. So, I might know what I'm talking about...

 

[WJK]

I'm happy to hear our conversation got you thinking outside of browsing on the forum! That gives me great joy.

I've done a lot of thinking about what I actually want from life currently, and what I am working towards in the future. I can say that yes I like cars, but my dream is not to own a Lamborghini, I like houses, but do not require a mansion. The thing that I enjoy the most out of life is having great relationships with my friends and family, loving someone unconditionally and one day, having a family of my own. I feel that deep in my heart, that, right now, is all I want.

Most of my family's problems are caused by money, they are typical poor people, letting it run their lives and basing all of their opinions on how much things are, or what "value" they are getting out of it (is it cheap enough to be considered valuable), if there's a chance I could take that away, then I think it would make a big difference. I also know a lot of problems in relationships come from stresses about finances and can we afford x and y etc. So if I've got that income then I can just focus on being happy with the people I love and enjoy spending time with.

I feel like I've done well when I accomplish my goals now, but I also taught myself to relax and wind down when I need to, I love spending time with my friends and am working on doing that with my family too, I believe my reasons are in the right place, and I'm not just doing this to have loads of money and live the lifestyle everyone dreams of, although that is quite the bonus to add!

Right now what I do enables me to work with one of my good friends every single day, as well as work with another one of my friends on another project which is highly rewarding, the only thing that stops me from being happy on a day to day basis is loneliness, but if I've been social and done a shit tonne of hard work during the day, I relax in the evening feeling absolutely amazing.

Maybe I need to look at how I come across in my wording when I talk about stuff like this. Thank you for questioning me and making me think, self-reflection is my favorite activity.

PS. Would love to have a conversation about the power that comes with wealth like that.

Power?

Money is a 2 edged sword. It can make people around you crazy when they can't have what you have. Some people will hate you for your success and try to trip you up or rip you off. They will swear that you cheated to get to your golden ring. Oh well. So what?

It can fix problems and give you the chance to have and execute elegant solutions. You can carefully use your wealth to change your world for the better. It takes a touch of wisdom to know how to use money for its best ends. Helping someone else is like getting into a cold pool. You must test the waters slowly to find the best path and adjust your plan. And you will make mistakes, so you must always leave yourself a quick way out of that cold water. It's your choice.

The main perk that comes with money is a lot of options and choices. When I was young, I felt I had none. Now I can write my own ticket. That reality comes with a ton of responsibilities and heavy decisions.

It's also the ultimate freedom. You can just say no and carry on with your life. What are they gonna do to you? The guy with the gold makes the rules. Saying no and walking away is total freedom.

 

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[biophase]

It is recurring in nature therefore I am mentally taking account the PV equivalent.

I just don’t get the idea of “you need to be happy when being broke.”

Imagine you suddenly become rich and have a mansion and a huge yacht and you can afford any vacation in the world. Who would you invite to come with you?

Hopefully you have a group of friends that you hang out with that would make your vacations 100x better.

This crew of friends can all be broke and you guys chill and hang out together, play video games, go out to eat, etc. This is the happy “you” before money. And makes you even happier once you have money.

 

[Kevin88660]

For me, there are 3 things in the world. I'd add relationships to your list and that would be the first one. That includes my people skills and connections. I know people with piles of money who are so lonely and unhappy. They are grasping at finding the right formula or the "thing" to complete their lives. I have also known people with piles of money who killed themselves either by suicide or slowly with drugs and drinking. Conversely, I have known people who have used their wealth to remake their worlds into a much better place and the people living there much happier. It's not the amount of money that these people spend. It's all how they spend it and on whom.

Money can be used to expand your world or to cut you off from meaningful experiences. It's just a tool and it's fungible. Every dollar looks like the next and can replaced. I can always make more money. It's my relationships with other people that are unique and special. And it's those relationships, and how I manage them, that make me attractive to money. It just flows in my direction these days. It's taken me a lifetime of struggles and work to set up that pipeline.

I hear you and I understand your struggles. No, I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I am a self-made woman who fought every step of the way. I started with nothing and my odds of succeeding were terrible. Women in my era were stay at home moms with a house full of kids. I've worked just about every day since I was 11 years old. I've also raised two families over the years. My kids are in their early 50s. Then I have 2 step kids around 30 years old. Now, I'm a senior citizen and I officially retired 22 years ago from my professional practice. And I still put in around 60 hours a week. I've earned everything I have. Nothing was given to me. So, I might know what I'm talking about...

Actually I was never poor. I consider myself fairly privileged. Never paid my own tuition fee.
Never had to spend a cent taking care of another family member.

Even right out of school I can do an internship for free for a year and never worry about personal expense.

But of course I don’t have the family wealth to not work for the rest of my life and do whatever I want. That’s why I am here.

But once I decided that I have a wealth centric focus in life I cannot just spend my time as before, getting my old friends in my house and play some video games. I have to calculate whom I spend my time with and how it will impact where I want to be. My current social life involves hanging out with baby boomers who can positively impact my business. So I literally changed my social life for my goals in business and wealth. There is some element of fun and enjoyment too. I am not suffering of course.

5-6 years ago I remember some friends who keep calling me during the weekend, despite previously telling them I am not available. I chose not to pick up the phone until they got it. Not a pleasant feeling for me but that’s the price I have to pay.

 

[Kevin88660]

Imagine you suddenly become rich and have a mansion and a huge yacht and you can afford any vacation in the world. Who would you invite to come with you?

Hopefully you have a group of friends that you hang out with that would make your vacations 100x better.

This crew of friends can all be broke and you guys chill and hang out together, play video games, go out to eat, etc. This is the happy “you” before money. And makes you even happier once you have money.

Along the journey the composition of the closest group of friends would have changed. Maybe 20 percent were the old guys.

Some would have blamed me for having no time for them for years but I think that’s the price I have to pay.

 

[WJK]

Actually I was never poor. I consider myself fairly privileged. Never paid my own tuition fee.
Never had to spend a cent taking care of another family member.

Even right out of school I can do an internship for free for a year and never worry about personal expense.

But of course I don’t have the family wealth to not work for the rest of my life and do whatever I want. That’s why I am here.

But once I decided that I have a wealth centric focus in life I cannot just spend my time as before, getting my old friends in my house and play some video games. I have to calculate whom I spend my time with and how it will impact where I want to be. My current social life involves hanging out with baby boomers who can positively impact my business. So I literally changed my social life for my goals in business and wealth. There is some element of fun and enjoyment too. I am not suffering of course.

5-6 years ago I remember some friends who keep calling me during the weekend, despite previously telling them I am not available. I chose not to pick up the phone until they got it. Not a pleasant feeling for me but that’s the price I have to pay.

I wish you good luck. Making money is a good skill.

I moved to downtown Los Angeles when I was 19 years old. I went to a private college on student loans. I was the odd guy out. I had nothing but my determination, and no one to back me up. The other students had their dads paying their rent and for their schooling. I was so jealous since I was struggling the whole time. Now I see that daily fight to survive as my biggest advantage. I carried 18 units with a 3.9 GPA and I worked 32 hours per week. I sat in the front row of my classes and I got a stellar education. It launched me.

That determination has been my life's theme. I decided that I must work harder and be better educated than anyone else around me. So, that's been my chosen path. I have 4 college degrees including my Juris Doctor degree. I went to law school when I was in my 40s and working full time. I've had a lot of successes in business over the years.