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RANT Florida Teachers Can What?

You're IN a theater and a lunatic w/a pistol decides to shoot up the place. Where would u rather be?

  • Dallas, Texas

    Votes: 20 71.4%
  • Toronto, Canada

    Votes: 8 28.6%

  • Total voters
    28
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MHP368

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On a more serious note hoe come were just ignoring that the gunmen meet a certain demographic and psychographic 90% of the time? Were gonna keep yelling about gun laws and mental health and not questioning why its so often a lonely white guy?

Another thing , our school system is a holdover from newly industrialized prussia. Pretty sure we have tons of empirical evidence that kids would actually learn more not herded into buildings against their will for forty hours a week. Maybe a simpler solution.
 

Mattie

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Not a fan of guns by any means. It's sad. I understand it's a growing social issue and social problem that began decades ago with gang violence, school shootings, bullying, and it is a huge part Culture to have weapons and the Military point of view of handling things. It's the way our culture works, believing the more restrictions, rules, regulations, procedures, and taking away more freedoms the more you will comply and conform. If you have weapons it means people are afraid of you.
 

G-Man

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On a more serious note hoe come were just ignoring that the gunmen meet a certain demographic and psychographic 90% of the time? Were gonna keep yelling about gun laws and mental health and not questioning why its so often a lonely white guy
Because that would involve confront dysfunction at levels so core to our society that nobody of any political stripe wants to go there.
Another thing , our school system is a holdover from newly industrialized prussia. Pretty sure we have tons of empirical evidence that kids would actually learn more not herded into buildings against their will for forty hours a week. Maybe a simpler solution.
People look at you like you've got three heads if you suggest the best way to prevent school shootings is to not send kids to school. But true.
 

MHP368

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People look at you like you've got three heads if you suggest the best way to prevent school shootings is to not send kids to school. But true
I mean , were arming the teachers and my kindergardener did shooting drills. I think we're passed the point of weird suggestions being off the table.
 

Kak

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I’m surprised we don’t have gun classes for middle schoolers.

Have you seen some of these Russian kids disarming AK-47’s in the blink of an eye?

We’re doomed.
We should. We absolutely should have gun safety classes in middle school.
 

GPM

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Roughly 70% of gun owners claim that hunting is their primary purpose for ownership and less than 5% claim it was for protection
In Canada it is illegal to protect yourself with a firearm, maybe even with any "weapon". We have laws in this country to ensure that criminals are better off than citizens when it comes to property rights and defending yourself.

There is a man in Ontario who wrestled a gun from someone breaking into his home, he then shot the criminal with his own firearm. The home owner had the book thrown at him for every gun offence you can possibly think of. There are a few stories like this.

Thankfully in Alberta a rural land owner just had a landmark case. He shot a trespasser and was dragged through the courts.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/okotoks-shooting-homeowner-charges-dropped-1.4716423

He has multiple clips
Magazines.

I think that gun safety should be taught in every school everywhere. They exist. They are out there. We can't just keep our head in the sand. Drill the Four Rules of Gun Safety into every child's head, same as everything else we have them memorize and learn.

#1 Treat all guns as if they are always loaded.
#2 Never let the muzzle cover anything that you are not willing to destroy.
#3 Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you have made the decision to shoot.
#4 Be sure of your target and what lies beyond it.
 

Roli

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Canadians as well, but it's important to note that this is simply an issue that many non-Americans just can't relate to and it would be ignorant to casually impose the values of one country or region on another without some serious research and experience to back it up.
Hence me backing away.

In Ontario, where I live, it's reported that only 15% of households own any amount of firearms. That number plummets to 2.8% in cities over 1 million people. So for Ontario, gun ownership is largely a small town / rural thing. Roughly 70% of gun owners claim that hunting is their primary purpose for ownership and less than 5% claim it was for protection.
Very interesting.

I've added a poll with a hypothetical...

You're in a movie theater and a lunatic with a pistol decides to shoot up the place. He has multiple clips.

Would you rather be in a movie theater in Toronto Canada?

Or in Dallas Texas?


For me, the answer is a no brainer. I want to be in Dallas because I'm sure one of my fellow citizens will be there to help stop it. In Canada, you'll be dead before help arrives.
Either one would be bad, because as far as I'm aware this mythical good guy when he does show up, gets shot by the police. (Though I reserve the right to be wrong, perhaps someone can point me to a story whereby a random stranger shot a lunatic shooter dead and was him/herself not also shot by the police).

But if you were to push me, I'd say Toronto, because it's less likely I get caught in the cross fire of a firefight between said gunman and multiple gun-totting citizens.

Now a zombie apocalypse on the other hand, I'd pretty much choose America over any other country, shotgun blasts do wonders for a zombie's complexion :-D
 

Roli

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Yeaaaa, yesterday kinda proves that I was a goddamn lummox for being against teachers being trained and armed. Arm them to the gills!
What happened yesterday?
 

Kak

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I've added a poll with a hypothetical...

You're in a movie theater and a lunatic with a pistol decides to shoot up the place. He has multiple clips.

Would you rather be in a movie theater in Toronto Canada?

Or in Dallas Texas?


For me, the answer is a no brainer. I want to be in Dallas because I'm sure one of my fellow citizens will be there to help stop it. In Canada, you'll be dead before help arrives.
Great poll!

Those that answer Toronto are just arguing to argue because this makes the point perfectly.

The wife and I went to Avengers last night as a matter of fact. I normally carry a pocket pistol around town, but I carry my Glock 23 to the theater because it has a custom trigger and dialed in night sights.

My wife carries a spare mag in her purse usually.

I pitty the son of a bitch that walks in our movie theater with bad intentions.

Sadly we lost all of those guns in a boating accident on the way home last night... But hey, at least it was a good movie.
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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On a more serious note hoe come were just ignoring that the gunmen meet a certain demographic and psychographic 90% of the time? Were gonna keep yelling about gun laws and mental health and not questioning why its so often a lonely white guy?

Another thing , our school system is a holdover from newly industrialized prussia. Pretty sure we have tons of empirical evidence that kids would actually learn more not herded into buildings against their will for forty hours a week. Maybe a simpler solution.
10,000 points for mentioning Prussia. Well done sir. ++Rep.

How I wish more ppl knew that our entire “educational” system is built to create sheep. They have succeeded in what they set out to do. Sad.
 

Kak

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10,000 points for mentioning Prussia. Well done sir. ++Rep.

How I wish more ppl knew that our entire “educational” system is built to create sheep. They have succeeded in what they set out to do. Sad.
Another thing , our school system is a holdover from newly industrialized prussia. Pretty sure we have tons of empirical evidence that kids would actually learn more not herded into buildings against their will for forty hours a week. Maybe a simpler solution.
I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
 

Kak

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Hence me backing away.
But you didnt really back away did you? You stuck around and kept snarkily telling everyone you backed away and saying things like:
Though I reserve the right to be wrong, perhaps someone can point me to a story whereby a random stranger shot a lunatic shooter dead and was him/herself not also shot by the police
There are hundreds of stories of this documented here. Crossfire is also extremely rare.

NRA-ILA | Armed Citizen®

You are wrong. I'm glad you "reserved the right."

I especially liked this one:
Guns Save Lives — Armed Citizens Thwart Active Shooters 94 Percent of the Time
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
There are so many different types of homeschooling opportunities in the U.S. that listing them all is a feat in and of itself. There are charter schools with options for a day or two at home, cottage schools, correspondence schools, online courses, and more. This might help.. I’m not completely sure what info you’re after.

Curriculum | Homeschooling Thru High School - HSLDA
 

rogue synthetic

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Disclaimer: I had a gun in my hands at 5 years old

(It was at a rock quarry, aimed at no people or living animals.)

Another thing , our school system is a holdover from newly industrialized prussia. Pretty sure we have tons of empirical evidence that kids would actually learn more not herded into buildings against their will for forty hours a week. Maybe a simpler solution.
Comparing the discipline and individual education received by 19th century Prussians vs. 21st century Americans might not be the best way to frame this.

I'm sure 'learn better' has some interesting qualifications but...

We can all draw caricatures. Which cartoon has the best resemblance to reality?
 

Roli

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But you didnt really back away did you? You stuck around and kept snarkily telling everyone you backed away and saying things like:
I was drawn back in, sheesh louish, sensitive much? It was hardly snarky, it was a genuine question. Thanks for answering....

Lolz, I actually read that last link, great example of skewed reporting how they manipulated what counted as a potential public shooting, plus another one linked in that story about London's murder rate being higher than New York's, so I thought I'd check that out. Yeah it was, for 2 months.

Again, chill, I'm not coming to take your guns, go nuts, shoot the place up.

Anyway, not to start (snarkily) throwing links at each other, but this one disagrees with your one.

https://splinternews.com/the-good-guy-with-a-gun-is-a-useless-myth-1820182639
 

Roli

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Those that answer Toronto are just arguing to argue because this makes the point perfectly.
Erm no, those that answer Toronto are actually taking some time to critically assess the question.

The question can be boiled down to this, would you prefer to be in a dark room with one person firing wildly, or potentially several?

I'd go for one, simply because in that situation there would be mass panic and confusion, which would only escalate if another one or more people also started firing.

This panic and confusion would hit critical mass when the police showed up, having received reports of multiple shots fired, by multiple assailants.

They, spurred on by self preservation would either just wait outside till the shooting stopped or burst in and start shooting themselves.

I, along with others would be crawling and cowering on the floor, our chances of getting shot would be increased with each armed person firing into the dark.

Ergo, neither situation would be ideal, however I and all the others whom voted Toronto would take the lesser of two evils.

(MJ said he had a pistol, so maybe someone could tackle him whilst he was reloading).
 

Roli

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Tragic.

I honestly don't think it's as black and white as giving teachers guns in schools. Where are they going to keep those guns? Who is going to train them? How many of them are prepared to grab a gun and go towards an armed assailant?

In the army it takes years of training to combat natural instincts to run away in those situations, and the army is full of people who want to be there....

Anyway I like what Carol Dweck says about Columbine in her book Mindset, something along the lines of we have to stop looking at these kids as "misfits" and more as bullied individuals with access to firearms. If we can cut out the culture of bullying in this intense manner, then we can look to eradicating kids wanting to shoot up their schools.

I feel for those parents man, real horrible tragedy.
 

MHP368

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At least this bill requires teachers to undergo 144 hours of training to be certified. They're not exactly just handing out guns to any teacher who wants one. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. I could see it going both ways.
another funny "gotcha" , they can find the money to arm the teachers but they can't pay the teachers a decent living wage (teachers do a lot for our kids, hell even a glorified baby sitter would cost me more to hire privately than they make)

I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
I'm not sure as far as whats actually required state by state so the government isn't breathing down your a$$ but if you start poking about NCBI with keywords like "alternative learning techniques" you'll find troves of inspiration, one thing that stood out for me when I was making my original comment was the fact that in third world countries they were able to just hand small groups of kids a tablet with some premade learning software and the children taught each other (if one kid didnt understand the other kid would help them and they would take turns at the 'helm' of the tablet etc) , its almost as if hundreds of years of experimentation and doctoral thesis on the subject of education have shown that we have a myriad of better ways to actually educate people.

Comparing the discipline and individual education received by 19th century Prussians vs. 21st century Americans might not be the best way to frame this.
lol , thats true, I recall one anecdote - maybe a hundred years off here but still telling. The folks that watched the lincon douglas debates (go look up the transcript) watched that all go down live (many of them middle school aged) then went home and talked about it because they understood what they had just heard and had the cognitive ability to retain it and then flesh it out amongst themselves.

I'm sure 'learn better' has some interesting qualifications but...

We can all draw caricatures. Which cartoon has the best resemblance to reality?
Thats the rub, you could have an easy solution and it still wont be adopted. For instance we have a lack of donor organs right? even though folks die every day, organs go to waste. Did you know psychologist have found that humans are wired to take the path of least resistance? , so when your installing software you usually pick "default" not custom right? , yeh people use this in sales all the time, heres how you would apply it to organ donation, instead of "opt in to become an organ donor" when you are first issued a licence you have to "opt out" of being one, you still retain your agency (your choice in the manner) but most people arent donors from sheer laziness not ill will toward there fellow man

It boggles my mind that we apply every trick in the behavioral psychology book toward sales but never society as a whole (well not really because people dont feel they profit from a better society, its too long term)
 

G-Man

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Either one would be bad, because as far as I'm aware this mythical good guy when he does show up, gets shot by the police. (Though I reserve the right to be wrong, perhaps someone can point me to a story whereby a random stranger shot a lunatic shooter dead and was him/herself not also shot by the police).
You won't get shot by the police, but you 100% will get arrested. Maybe not charged, but arrested for sure. Police just showed up in response to a shooting and your @ss has a gun. That's why outside of every concealed carry class there's a guy selling subscription based legal if you ever have to use your gun.

I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
You can outsource homeschooling though. For example: my kid is gonna start Kumon for math and reading in a couple months when he turns 3, and I can send him to coding camp to learn computers. I called the international school and found out they'll let you bring your kid for just 1 language class per day, etc. It takes some scavenging, but you can get your kids an education in all kinds of topics that may be beyond your own ability to teach.

Also, and I don't know why this never seems to come up in the discussions of education, but my biggest objection to public school (other than that they'll try to put my daughter on birth control at 10 and convince my son that his high energy is a mental disability) is this: How can you give the state the ability to inform the worldview of those it intends to govern and still call yourself a democracy?
 

scottmsul

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I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
When I was in Kindergarten I just did nothing. Didn't fill out any papers, didn't write my name on anything. Apparently my parents and teachers worried I had a mental deficiency or something. My Mom wanted to try a Montessori school, my Dad was skeptical but decided to try it since there was nothing to lose.

I recall bits and pieces of it, basically they had "stations" set up you can wander to and work on whatever you feel like. I found that much more fun and interesting, ended up learning how to read at a 3rd grade level and understood the basics of multiplication. Worked out ok.

We ended up moving and went back to a "normal" school for 1st grade, but by then I had advanced so far there weren't any more issues. But I wonder if I would have advanced further or faster had I stayed in a Montessori school, and if that's what "normal" should be.
 

Kak

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another funny "gotcha" , they can find the money to arm the teachers but they can't pay the teachers a decent living wage (teachers do a lot for our kids, hell even a glorified baby sitter would cost me more to hire privately than they make)
Want a funnier gotcha?

They line up by the thousands to compete for those jobs. Do you want to know what drives up wages for a particular job? A shortage.

We are already paying them over market.
 

Longinus

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I've added a poll with a hypothetical...

You're in a movie theater and a lunatic with a pistol decides to shoot up the place. He has multiple clips.

Would you rather be in a movie theater in Toronto Canada?

Or in Dallas Texas?


For me, the answer is a no brainer. I want to be in Dallas because I'm sure one of my fellow citizens will be there to help stop it. In Canada, you'll be dead before help arrives.
I agree with your opinion.

But can somebody explain why I have never heard about a shooting being stopped by other citizen carrying guns? Were there situations like that or do we (gunless Eurokids) simply never hear from it?
 
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