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RANT Florida Teachers Can What?

You're IN a theater and a lunatic w/a pistol decides to shoot up the place. Where would u rather be?

  • Dallas, Texas

    Votes: 20 71.4%
  • Toronto, Canada

    Votes: 8 28.6%

  • Total voters
    28
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Kak

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I've added a poll with a hypothetical...

You're in a movie theater and a lunatic with a pistol decides to shoot up the place. He has multiple clips.

Would you rather be in a movie theater in Toronto Canada?

Or in Dallas Texas?


For me, the answer is a no brainer. I want to be in Dallas because I'm sure one of my fellow citizens will be there to help stop it. In Canada, you'll be dead before help arrives.
Great poll!

Those that answer Toronto are just arguing to argue because this makes the point perfectly.

The wife and I went to Avengers last night as a matter of fact. I normally carry a pocket pistol around town, but I carry my Glock 23 to the theater because it has a custom trigger and dialed in night sights.

My wife carries a spare mag in her purse usually.

I pitty the son of a bitch that walks in our movie theater with bad intentions.

Sadly we lost all of those guns in a boating accident on the way home last night... But hey, at least it was a good movie.
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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On a more serious note hoe come were just ignoring that the gunmen meet a certain demographic and psychographic 90% of the time? Were gonna keep yelling about gun laws and mental health and not questioning why its so often a lonely white guy?

Another thing , our school system is a holdover from newly industrialized prussia. Pretty sure we have tons of empirical evidence that kids would actually learn more not herded into buildings against their will for forty hours a week. Maybe a simpler solution.
10,000 points for mentioning Prussia. Well done sir. ++Rep.

How I wish more ppl knew that our entire “educational” system is built to create sheep. They have succeeded in what they set out to do. Sad.
 

Kak

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10,000 points for mentioning Prussia. Well done sir. ++Rep.

How I wish more ppl knew that our entire “educational” system is built to create sheep. They have succeeded in what they set out to do. Sad.
Another thing , our school system is a holdover from newly industrialized prussia. Pretty sure we have tons of empirical evidence that kids would actually learn more not herded into buildings against their will for forty hours a week. Maybe a simpler solution.
I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
 

Kak

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Hence me backing away.
But you didnt really back away did you? You stuck around and kept snarkily telling everyone you backed away and saying things like:
Though I reserve the right to be wrong, perhaps someone can point me to a story whereby a random stranger shot a lunatic shooter dead and was him/herself not also shot by the police
There are hundreds of stories of this documented here. Crossfire is also extremely rare.

NRA-ILA | Armed Citizen®

You are wrong. I'm glad you "reserved the right."

I especially liked this one:
Guns Save Lives — Armed Citizens Thwart Active Shooters 94 Percent of the Time
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
There are so many different types of homeschooling opportunities in the U.S. that listing them all is a feat in and of itself. There are charter schools with options for a day or two at home, cottage schools, correspondence schools, online courses, and more. This might help.. I’m not completely sure what info you’re after.

Curriculum | Homeschooling Thru High School - HSLDA
 

rogue synthetic

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Disclaimer: I had a gun in my hands at 5 years old

(It was at a rock quarry, aimed at no people or living animals.)

Another thing , our school system is a holdover from newly industrialized prussia. Pretty sure we have tons of empirical evidence that kids would actually learn more not herded into buildings against their will for forty hours a week. Maybe a simpler solution.
Comparing the discipline and individual education received by 19th century Prussians vs. 21st century Americans might not be the best way to frame this.

I'm sure 'learn better' has some interesting qualifications but...

We can all draw caricatures. Which cartoon has the best resemblance to reality?
 

Roli

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But you didnt really back away did you? You stuck around and kept snarkily telling everyone you backed away and saying things like:
I was drawn back in, sheesh louish, sensitive much? It was hardly snarky, it was a genuine question. Thanks for answering....

Lolz, I actually read that last link, great example of skewed reporting how they manipulated what counted as a potential public shooting, plus another one linked in that story about London's murder rate being higher than New York's, so I thought I'd check that out. Yeah it was, for 2 months.

Again, chill, I'm not coming to take your guns, go nuts, shoot the place up.

Anyway, not to start (snarkily) throwing links at each other, but this one disagrees with your one.

https://splinternews.com/the-good-guy-with-a-gun-is-a-useless-myth-1820182639
 

Roli

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Those that answer Toronto are just arguing to argue because this makes the point perfectly.
Erm no, those that answer Toronto are actually taking some time to critically assess the question.

The question can be boiled down to this, would you prefer to be in a dark room with one person firing wildly, or potentially several?

I'd go for one, simply because in that situation there would be mass panic and confusion, which would only escalate if another one or more people also started firing.

This panic and confusion would hit critical mass when the police showed up, having received reports of multiple shots fired, by multiple assailants.

They, spurred on by self preservation would either just wait outside till the shooting stopped or burst in and start shooting themselves.

I, along with others would be crawling and cowering on the floor, our chances of getting shot would be increased with each armed person firing into the dark.

Ergo, neither situation would be ideal, however I and all the others whom voted Toronto would take the lesser of two evils.

(MJ said he had a pistol, so maybe someone could tackle him whilst he was reloading).
 

Roli

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Tragic.

I honestly don't think it's as black and white as giving teachers guns in schools. Where are they going to keep those guns? Who is going to train them? How many of them are prepared to grab a gun and go towards an armed assailant?

In the army it takes years of training to combat natural instincts to run away in those situations, and the army is full of people who want to be there....

Anyway I like what Carol Dweck says about Columbine in her book Mindset, something along the lines of we have to stop looking at these kids as "misfits" and more as bullied individuals with access to firearms. If we can cut out the culture of bullying in this intense manner, then we can look to eradicating kids wanting to shoot up their schools.

I feel for those parents man, real horrible tragedy.
 

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MHP368

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At least this bill requires teachers to undergo 144 hours of training to be certified. They're not exactly just handing out guns to any teacher who wants one. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. I could see it going both ways.
another funny "gotcha" , they can find the money to arm the teachers but they can't pay the teachers a decent living wage (teachers do a lot for our kids, hell even a glorified baby sitter would cost me more to hire privately than they make)

I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
I'm not sure as far as whats actually required state by state so the government isn't breathing down your a$$ but if you start poking about NCBI with keywords like "alternative learning techniques" you'll find troves of inspiration, one thing that stood out for me when I was making my original comment was the fact that in third world countries they were able to just hand small groups of kids a tablet with some premade learning software and the children taught each other (if one kid didnt understand the other kid would help them and they would take turns at the 'helm' of the tablet etc) , its almost as if hundreds of years of experimentation and doctoral thesis on the subject of education have shown that we have a myriad of better ways to actually educate people.

Comparing the discipline and individual education received by 19th century Prussians vs. 21st century Americans might not be the best way to frame this.
lol , thats true, I recall one anecdote - maybe a hundred years off here but still telling. The folks that watched the lincon douglas debates (go look up the transcript) watched that all go down live (many of them middle school aged) then went home and talked about it because they understood what they had just heard and had the cognitive ability to retain it and then flesh it out amongst themselves.

I'm sure 'learn better' has some interesting qualifications but...

We can all draw caricatures. Which cartoon has the best resemblance to reality?
Thats the rub, you could have an easy solution and it still wont be adopted. For instance we have a lack of donor organs right? even though folks die every day, organs go to waste. Did you know psychologist have found that humans are wired to take the path of least resistance? , so when your installing software you usually pick "default" not custom right? , yeh people use this in sales all the time, heres how you would apply it to organ donation, instead of "opt in to become an organ donor" when you are first issued a licence you have to "opt out" of being one, you still retain your agency (your choice in the manner) but most people arent donors from sheer laziness not ill will toward there fellow man

It boggles my mind that we apply every trick in the behavioral psychology book toward sales but never society as a whole (well not really because people dont feel they profit from a better society, its too long term)
 

G-Man

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Either one would be bad, because as far as I'm aware this mythical good guy when he does show up, gets shot by the police. (Though I reserve the right to be wrong, perhaps someone can point me to a story whereby a random stranger shot a lunatic shooter dead and was him/herself not also shot by the police).
You won't get shot by the police, but you 100% will get arrested. Maybe not charged, but arrested for sure. Police just showed up in response to a shooting and your @ss has a gun. That's why outside of every concealed carry class there's a guy selling subscription based legal if you ever have to use your gun.

I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
You can outsource homeschooling though. For example: my kid is gonna start Kumon for math and reading in a couple months when he turns 3, and I can send him to coding camp to learn computers. I called the international school and found out they'll let you bring your kid for just 1 language class per day, etc. It takes some scavenging, but you can get your kids an education in all kinds of topics that may be beyond your own ability to teach.

Also, and I don't know why this never seems to come up in the discussions of education, but my biggest objection to public school (other than that they'll try to put my daughter on birth control at 10 and convince my son that his high energy is a mental disability) is this: How can you give the state the ability to inform the worldview of those it intends to govern and still call yourself a democracy?
 

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I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
When I was in Kindergarten I just did nothing. Didn't fill out any papers, didn't write my name on anything. Apparently my parents and teachers worried I had a mental deficiency or something. My Mom wanted to try a Montessori school, my Dad was skeptical but decided to try it since there was nothing to lose.

I recall bits and pieces of it, basically they had "stations" set up you can wander to and work on whatever you feel like. I found that much more fun and interesting, ended up learning how to read at a 3rd grade level and understood the basics of multiplication. Worked out ok.

We ended up moving and went back to a "normal" school for 1st grade, but by then I had advanced so far there weren't any more issues. But I wonder if I would have advanced further or faster had I stayed in a Montessori school, and if that's what "normal" should be.
 

Kak

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another funny "gotcha" , they can find the money to arm the teachers but they can't pay the teachers a decent living wage (teachers do a lot for our kids, hell even a glorified baby sitter would cost me more to hire privately than they make)
Want a funnier gotcha?

They line up by the thousands to compete for those jobs. Do you want to know what drives up wages for a particular job? A shortage.

We are already paying them over market.
 

Longinus

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I've added a poll with a hypothetical...

You're in a movie theater and a lunatic with a pistol decides to shoot up the place. He has multiple clips.

Would you rather be in a movie theater in Toronto Canada?

Or in Dallas Texas?


For me, the answer is a no brainer. I want to be in Dallas because I'm sure one of my fellow citizens will be there to help stop it. In Canada, you'll be dead before help arrives.
I agree with your opinion.

But can somebody explain why I have never heard about a shooting being stopped by other citizen carrying guns? Were there situations like that or do we (gunless Eurokids) simply never hear from it?
 

Raoul Duke

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MHP368

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can somebody explain why I have never heard about a shooting being stopped by other citizen carrying guns? Were there situations like that or do we (gunless Eurokids) simply never hear from it?
Ive read about a few , for one the body counts lower so it doesnt get clicks

Honestly though "good guy with a gun" is a dumb myth , unless they arm the teachers and have them hitting the shooting range a few tines a month theyll just as likely shoot students as an assailant when SHTF , adrenaline and a real target tointing back at you tends to mesd your aim up.

Hrll didnt they have an armed cop at one of the shootings and the guy just rode a golf cart around and told 911 a play by play?

Does a teacher who takes a bullet for a kid get a purple heart and a pension? Because teachers have families too and the calculus on engaging a school shooter probably changes quite a bit when its your a$$ on the line

I say you take the "school" out of the equation , our culture surrounding guns and violence isnt going to change anytime soon , and "mental health" is another non starter (tons of these shooters never had any run ins with police or mental health proffesionals or anyone that could "catch it early")
 

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Those that answer Toronto are just arguing to argue because this makes the point perfectly.
I don't think that's true at all.

For starters - the poll isn't really "fair" in the first place. It's more of a "push poll" that is clearly worded to encourage one answer over another.

If the poll was created to encourage the opposite answer, it might be worded: "Where would you rather live with your family? In a place where the gun-related homicide rate is 4.46 per 100k people (The USA), or a place where the rate is 0.06 (The UK and Canada)?"

Or we could go even more extreme with the same numbers and ask "Would you move your family to a place where you are 74.3% more likely to die by a gun?"

Now one could say "those that answer 4.46 / 74.3% are just arguing to argue, because this makes the point perfectly" about the exact opposite answer than the one the original poll suggested.

These aren't fair questions because you look like a fool if you pick "I'd rather be unarmed in a shootout" or "I'd rather live in a place with more gun violence".

But now we're into statistics, where folks on both sides have a plethora of arguments and sources for and against both sides of the argument. For what it's worth I pulled those stats from wikipedia, which was lazy, but the numbers were of less importance to me than the point I was trying to make about unfair questions that try to push people towards a preferred response.

To be 100% clear - I'm not against gun ownership. My wife and I would actually like to own one for our own protection one day. I also really enjoyed firing some guns down in Vegas a while back and valued the freedom to do so easily.

I just genuinely believe it's a highly subjective topic and the answers you get are going to be based on an individual's culture, heritage, location, and experiences.
 

G-Man

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I just genuinely believe it's a highly subjective topic and the answers you get are going to be based on an individual's culture, heritage, location, and experiences.
Scott Adams I think makes that argument better than anyone

https://blog.dilbert.com/2018/04/01/the-fake-gun-control-debate/

EDIT: He makes the argument that it's subjective based on experience/current circumstances

If you go to the bottom of the article where he articulates, "honest" opinions on guns, my personal honest feeling is similar but a little different. It goes something like this.

Allowing citizens to own guns will result in the unnecessary deaths of thousands of people. Allowing governments to own guns results in the unnecessary deaths of 10s of millions of people. The widespread circulation of guns in the population puts at least some fear in the minds of overreaching politicians of being murdered in their beds should they decide to put people in cattle cars. Therefore, the net present value, in terms of innocent deaths of allowing people to own guns is, subjectively in my estimation, lower than the number of innocent deaths caused at a future date by weapons in the hands of the state.
 
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G-Man

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That was a great read and he said it far better than I did.
He says most things better than most people. I had never read anything by him until Think Bigly, and have been following ever since. He's one of those great authors like Daniel Kahneman that can say things that help you see your own bullshit, but he can say it in a way that makes you receptive to listen.
 

Kak

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Honestly though "good guy with a gun" is a dumb myth , unless they arm the teachers and have them hitting the shooting range a few tines a month theyll just as likely shoot students as an assailant when SHTF , adrenaline and a real target tointing back at you tends to mesd your aim up
Do you own any guns? Do you frequent the gun range? Do you know remotely what it is like to shoot a gun? It sounds like CNN coming out of your mouth here.

 

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Venezuela lost the right to own firearms because socialist progressivist agenda, now the government mows them down in the street while they beg for food. Germany lost the right to own firearms because socialist progressivist agendas and people were rounded up and killed in camps. Cambodia......
Cuba.... see where this is going? For some reason socialists need to take away firearms to enforce their "values" on the masses. When people start saying you need less firearms in society is the perfect time to get more into society legally.
 

MHP368

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Do you own any guns? Do you frequent the gun range? Do you know remotely what it is like to shoot a gun? It sounds like CNN coming out of your mouth here.

Yeh , I have 3 handguns a shotgun and a weird little 22

You ever read these articles about the police eho shoot everything but the target? Those are trained gun users who arent keeping up with training by going to gun ranges regularly.

So what , we arm the teachers and require gun range training often enough to make them an actual viable deterent? Seems a terrible convoluted way to make a square peg fit in a round hole. I think its much more practical and cost saving (not to mention beneficial for actual education) to just reform our school system and shutter the damn things.

Take the school out of school shootings so we only have to fear malls and retail shops and post offices and movie theaters and churches. Lol (I joke but im in arizona where I could actually expect in any of those places that a high possibility exists of the noble "good guy with a gun" existing , and wr dont have to pay them extra or enforce gun range training , we do that for fun)
 

Kak

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Venezuela lost the right to own firearms because socialist progressivist agenda, now the government mows them down in the street while they beg for food. Germany lost the right to own firearms because socialist progressivist agendas and people were rounded up and killed in camps. Cambodia......
Cuba.... see where this is going? For some reason socialists need to take away firearms to enforce their "values" on the masses. When people start saying you need less firearms in society is the perfect time to get more into society legally.
At the point when the folks that believe the government knows what is best want to shoot back... It is too late.
 

Longinus

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Venezuela lost the right to own firearms because socialist progressivist agenda, now the government mows them down in the street while they beg for food. Germany lost the right to own firearms because socialist progressivist agendas and people were rounded up and killed in camps. Cambodia......
Cuba.... see where this is going? For some reason socialists need to take away firearms to enforce their "values" on the masses. When people start saying you need less firearms in society is the perfect time to get more into society legally.
This is often used as an argument, but must gun-free countries don't have a gov shooting on their citizen, far from it even. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your standpoint. But the argument is out of proportion.
 

MHP368

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poll isn't really "fair" in the first place. It's more of a "push poll" that is clearly worded to encourage one answer over another.
Actually I answered toronto because I know in a shooting id probably get shot and not die. I was thinking about better healthcare outcome and cost (technically the best er to end up with if shot is in Philadelphia if memory serves just based on how oftenthe doctors deal with shootings)
It didnt occur to me that the poll was asking about "good guy with a gun" factor until you folks started discussing it lol
 

Kak

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Yeh , I have 3 handguns a shotgun and a weird little 22

You ever read these articles about the police eho shoot everything but the target? Those are trained gun users who arent keeping up with training by going to gun ranges regularly.

So what , we arm the teachers and require gun range training often enough to make them an actual viable deterent? Seems a terrible convoluted way to make a square peg fit in a round hole. I think its much more practical and cost saving (not to mention beneficial for actual education) to just reform our school system and shutter the damn things.

Take the school out of school shootings so we only have to fear malls and retail shops and post offices and movie theaters and churches. Lol (I joke but im in arizona where I could actually expect in any of those places that a high possibility exists of the noble "good guy with a gun" existing , and wr dont have to pay them extra or enforce gun range training , we do that for fun)
In my extensive experience with firearms... you are either proficient or not. I haven't been to the range in 6 months, but when I do go, I will do well. My wife will do well. We handle firearms daily.

Those cops you speak of? It is true and it is reprehensible. Makes just about as much sense as a 400 pound cop. Agreed.

I don't know why that happens, but some people just do the bare minimum to get by. They must be in it for the job, not to do the job well.

My take, folks that choose to carry take it really seriously. My mother, we took her to the range 10 times. She never operated in a fully proficient manner. She shouldn't carry... And she doesn't... Why? Because not being proficient scares her.

Remember this is a serious thing. The first day I strapped a loaded gun on my hip and went into public was a huge responsibility. I took and still take it very seriously.

Now... I am losing faith in humanity a bit. Should some of these retards be buying firearms? No. Should they be allowed to? Probably not but you can't draw that line. We are trying to make things equal again for people that are unequal.

I do like what @G-Man had to say. The second amendment might save the dirt we call home from some pretty messed up stuff in the future... But who am I kidding they will just take our guns first and half of people will cheer.
 
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Kak

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This is often used as an argument, but must gun-free countries don't have a gov shooting on their citizen, far from it even. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your standpoint. But the argument is out of proportion.
They are a good example of a once prosperous democracy that turned to progressivist socialism relatively recently.

Germany is another example of a country that confiscated the privately owned firearms before their Nazi Reich. We know how that turned out.

They were both industrialized nations with wealth and opportunity. That said, we need to come to one of the two following conclusions from these examples to reconcile it to our beliefs:

-We are better than the Venezuelans and Germans and they are bad or stupid or bigoted people.
Or
-A voting majority of humans can fall susceptible to bad political ideas that lead down a really bad path.
 
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Fox

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If you are worried about teachers being armed I would start with finding better teachers.

If you can't trust them with a gun then why are you giving them your kid for over ten years?
 
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