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RANT Florida Teachers Can What?

You're IN a theater and a lunatic w/a pistol decides to shoot up the place. Where would u rather be?

  • Dallas, Texas

    Votes: 20 71.4%
  • Toronto, Canada

    Votes: 8 28.6%

  • Total voters
    28
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xmartel

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Canada, eh!
True, but if it becomes the expectation...that's where we're headed.

Example: Florida allows it...it works out...then every other state begins adopting the practice until kids everywhere have now become conditioned to expect teachers in schools everywhere to be armed. It now becomes a standard that most teachers abide by.

Duplicate this across other industries, public places, etc.etc. More people with more guns.

I'm not even anti-gun or anything...I just don't know if I'm more comfortable knowing there are people all around me with guns or the occasional random shooter I probably won't ever come into contact with.

I definitely think schools need to do more in terms of safety. Better door lock systems...better trained guards...metal detector systems at every door...whatever else.

I think every movie theatre and public place should have at least 1-2 security guys -- it should become the businesses responsibility to ensure their employees or the public be safe while at their location, not the actual employees themselves.
Personally I'm more comfortable knowing there are good people around me with guns. It's one of the things I enjoy about traveling to the US.

I see two problems with what you're saying.

1. what you're describing with having armed guards everywhere, metal detectors, better locking door systems, etc. It all sounds like you want public spaces to feel like a prison. If life has to feel like we're just living in one large prison, that's a lot of freedom we just gave up. Just so that law abiding citizens can't carry.

2. if every private business is now required to employ guards, think about how many small businesses are going to go out of business. And the ones that survive will have to jack up what they charge for everything just to cover the extra overhead. It'll create a lot of useless employment, but the cost of living will rise dramatically. Plus, if the business is now legally obligated to guard all their patrons against an attack, think of what liability insurance would then cost.
It's a completely inefficient use of money. And is anti-business.

Fun fact. I'm Canadian and don't hold a US passport, green card, of anything of the sort. But I have a concealed carry permit for New Hampshire, and there are 25 odd states that recognize this permit.

A foreign government has evaluated the fact that I have a restricted gun license (ability to own handguns), and determined that since I don't have a criminal record and my government considers me safe to own and use these guns, that I am therefore safe to carry the gun. While my own government considers me a grave threat to the interest of public safety if I were to carry.
 

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Roli

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English people in the room when Americans start talking about the right to carry guns, be like...

 

404profound

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Yeaaaa, yesterday kinda proves that I was a goddamn lummox for being against teachers being trained and armed. Arm them to the gills!
 

JAJT

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English people in the room when Americans start talking about the right to carry guns, be like...
Canadians as well, but it's important to note that this is simply an issue that many non-Americans just can't relate to and it would be ignorant to casually impose the values of one country or region on another without some serious research and experience to back it up.

In Ontario, where I live, it's reported that only 15% of households own any amount of firearms. That number plummets to 2.8% in cities over 1 million people. So for Ontario, gun ownership is largely a small town / rural thing. Roughly 70% of gun owners claim that hunting is their primary purpose for ownership and less than 5% claim it was for protection.

Hell, you have to jump through hoops just to own a handgun up here and conceal / open carry is outright illegal Canada-wide, from my understanding.

The bottom line (for me) is that the perception of safety is a subjective thing. We feel safe when our expectations for safety are being met, regardless of how objectively safe we actually are. When you live in a place that associates a lack of guns with safety, you naturally object to anything that increases the prevalence of guns. When you live in a place that associates a prevalence of guns with safety, you naturally object to anything that decreases the prevalence of guns.

So while I would 100% object loudly to letting Ontario teachers carry firearms, that doesn't mean that my opinion holds any weight in Florida, where the perception of safety as it relates to guns is totally different.
 

MJ DeMarco

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I've added a poll with a hypothetical...

You're in a movie theater and a lunatic with a pistol decides to shoot up the place. He has multiple clips.

Would you rather be in a movie theater in Toronto Canada?

Or in Dallas Texas?


For me, the answer is a no brainer. I want to be in Dallas because I'm sure one of my fellow citizens will be there to help stop it. In Canada, you'll be dead before help arrives.
 

Charnell

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Responsible gun owners don't do irresponsible things with their gun.
Gun free zones are a target for criminals.
Shooting a gun is therapeutic.
You don't need the entire place to be packing.
But it helps hahaha

I have 2 ARs at home, one I built myself spring by spring. Also spent some time in the military. What I wouldn't mind seeing is required safety courses for any gun owner. It's hard to recount all the times I've had friends handle my weapons carelessly out of ignorance (finger on the trigger, flagging/pointing it at people), but they could go to the store and buy an AR-15 and ammunition within 10 minutes of their background check clearing.

Should be licensed like driving a vehicle, with an hour or two class every few years. However, the problem I see with that is it could be used as a tool to prevent the poor from having access by locating facilities in difficult to get to areas.

Think about the risks. A teacher leaves a gun unattended. A teacher is harassed and looses their temper. The list goes on and on. I don't see how this won't end horribly.
It's very difficult to leave a gun unattended.
How often do we hear about teachers beating up students now?
 

MHP368

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A moment of silence for our valiant fallen school children who died for our second amendment rights

Shootings are so common now that if I see the headline and its not near cho's high score I dont even read the article
 

G-Man

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Funny story about guns in Dallas TX. I have a very liberal boss, not originally from US, who was hiring a security guard for the facility. The guard that he interviewed and liked is an armed one. He was vacillating on whether he felt comfortable having a gun in the building.

One of the sales guys was like "Bad news, boss. I can see 3 guys in this room that have been walking around you with guns in their waistband all day every day for years".

He laughed and was like, "I guess that's okay, if the guard misses we've got backup".

I just assume that at any given time a fair percentage of the people around me are armed. It doesn't bother me. And the only egregious random shooting I've had in my neighborhood was actually an off-duty cop that freaked out and murdered two teenagers. Go figure.
 

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MHP368

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On a more serious note hoe come were just ignoring that the gunmen meet a certain demographic and psychographic 90% of the time? Were gonna keep yelling about gun laws and mental health and not questioning why its so often a lonely white guy?

Another thing , our school system is a holdover from newly industrialized prussia. Pretty sure we have tons of empirical evidence that kids would actually learn more not herded into buildings against their will for forty hours a week. Maybe a simpler solution.
 

Mattie

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Not a fan of guns by any means. It's sad. I understand it's a growing social issue and social problem that began decades ago with gang violence, school shootings, bullying, and it is a huge part Culture to have weapons and the Military point of view of handling things. It's the way our culture works, believing the more restrictions, rules, regulations, procedures, and taking away more freedoms the more you will comply and conform. If you have weapons it means people are afraid of you.
 

G-Man

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On a more serious note hoe come were just ignoring that the gunmen meet a certain demographic and psychographic 90% of the time? Were gonna keep yelling about gun laws and mental health and not questioning why its so often a lonely white guy
Because that would involve confront dysfunction at levels so core to our society that nobody of any political stripe wants to go there.
Another thing , our school system is a holdover from newly industrialized prussia. Pretty sure we have tons of empirical evidence that kids would actually learn more not herded into buildings against their will for forty hours a week. Maybe a simpler solution.
People look at you like you've got three heads if you suggest the best way to prevent school shootings is to not send kids to school. But true.
 

MHP368

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People look at you like you've got three heads if you suggest the best way to prevent school shootings is to not send kids to school. But true
I mean , were arming the teachers and my kindergardener did shooting drills. I think we're passed the point of weird suggestions being off the table.
 

Kak

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I’m surprised we don’t have gun classes for middle schoolers.

Have you seen some of these Russian kids disarming AK-47’s in the blink of an eye?

We’re doomed.
We should. We absolutely should have gun safety classes in middle school.
 

GPM

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Roughly 70% of gun owners claim that hunting is their primary purpose for ownership and less than 5% claim it was for protection
In Canada it is illegal to protect yourself with a firearm, maybe even with any "weapon". We have laws in this country to ensure that criminals are better off than citizens when it comes to property rights and defending yourself.

There is a man in Ontario who wrestled a gun from someone breaking into his home, he then shot the criminal with his own firearm. The home owner had the book thrown at him for every gun offence you can possibly think of. There are a few stories like this.

Thankfully in Alberta a rural land owner just had a landmark case. He shot a trespasser and was dragged through the courts.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/okotoks-shooting-homeowner-charges-dropped-1.4716423

He has multiple clips
Magazines.

I think that gun safety should be taught in every school everywhere. They exist. They are out there. We can't just keep our head in the sand. Drill the Four Rules of Gun Safety into every child's head, same as everything else we have them memorize and learn.

#1 Treat all guns as if they are always loaded.
#2 Never let the muzzle cover anything that you are not willing to destroy.
#3 Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you have made the decision to shoot.
#4 Be sure of your target and what lies beyond it.
 

Roli

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Canadians as well, but it's important to note that this is simply an issue that many non-Americans just can't relate to and it would be ignorant to casually impose the values of one country or region on another without some serious research and experience to back it up.
Hence me backing away.

In Ontario, where I live, it's reported that only 15% of households own any amount of firearms. That number plummets to 2.8% in cities over 1 million people. So for Ontario, gun ownership is largely a small town / rural thing. Roughly 70% of gun owners claim that hunting is their primary purpose for ownership and less than 5% claim it was for protection.
Very interesting.

I've added a poll with a hypothetical...

You're in a movie theater and a lunatic with a pistol decides to shoot up the place. He has multiple clips.

Would you rather be in a movie theater in Toronto Canada?

Or in Dallas Texas?


For me, the answer is a no brainer. I want to be in Dallas because I'm sure one of my fellow citizens will be there to help stop it. In Canada, you'll be dead before help arrives.
Either one would be bad, because as far as I'm aware this mythical good guy when he does show up, gets shot by the police. (Though I reserve the right to be wrong, perhaps someone can point me to a story whereby a random stranger shot a lunatic shooter dead and was him/herself not also shot by the police).

But if you were to push me, I'd say Toronto, because it's less likely I get caught in the cross fire of a firefight between said gunman and multiple gun-totting citizens.

Now a zombie apocalypse on the other hand, I'd pretty much choose America over any other country, shotgun blasts do wonders for a zombie's complexion :-D
 

Roli

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Yeaaaa, yesterday kinda proves that I was a goddamn lummox for being against teachers being trained and armed. Arm them to the gills!
What happened yesterday?
 

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Kak

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I've added a poll with a hypothetical...

You're in a movie theater and a lunatic with a pistol decides to shoot up the place. He has multiple clips.

Would you rather be in a movie theater in Toronto Canada?

Or in Dallas Texas?


For me, the answer is a no brainer. I want to be in Dallas because I'm sure one of my fellow citizens will be there to help stop it. In Canada, you'll be dead before help arrives.
Great poll!

Those that answer Toronto are just arguing to argue because this makes the point perfectly.

The wife and I went to Avengers last night as a matter of fact. I normally carry a pocket pistol around town, but I carry my Glock 23 to the theater because it has a custom trigger and dialed in night sights.

My wife carries a spare mag in her purse usually.

I pitty the son of a bitch that walks in our movie theater with bad intentions.

Sadly we lost all of those guns in a boating accident on the way home last night... But hey, at least it was a good movie.
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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On a more serious note hoe come were just ignoring that the gunmen meet a certain demographic and psychographic 90% of the time? Were gonna keep yelling about gun laws and mental health and not questioning why its so often a lonely white guy?

Another thing , our school system is a holdover from newly industrialized prussia. Pretty sure we have tons of empirical evidence that kids would actually learn more not herded into buildings against their will for forty hours a week. Maybe a simpler solution.
10,000 points for mentioning Prussia. Well done sir. ++Rep.

How I wish more ppl knew that our entire “educational” system is built to create sheep. They have succeeded in what they set out to do. Sad.
 

Kak

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10,000 points for mentioning Prussia. Well done sir. ++Rep.

How I wish more ppl knew that our entire “educational” system is built to create sheep. They have succeeded in what they set out to do. Sad.
Another thing , our school system is a holdover from newly industrialized prussia. Pretty sure we have tons of empirical evidence that kids would actually learn more not herded into buildings against their will for forty hours a week. Maybe a simpler solution.
I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
 

Kak

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Hence me backing away.
But you didnt really back away did you? You stuck around and kept snarkily telling everyone you backed away and saying things like:
Though I reserve the right to be wrong, perhaps someone can point me to a story whereby a random stranger shot a lunatic shooter dead and was him/herself not also shot by the police
There are hundreds of stories of this documented here. Crossfire is also extremely rare.

NRA-ILA | Armed Citizen®

You are wrong. I'm glad you "reserved the right."

I especially liked this one:
Guns Save Lives — Armed Citizens Thwart Active Shooters 94 Percent of the Time
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
There are so many different types of homeschooling opportunities in the U.S. that listing them all is a feat in and of itself. There are charter schools with options for a day or two at home, cottage schools, correspondence schools, online courses, and more. This might help.. I’m not completely sure what info you’re after.

Curriculum | Homeschooling Thru High School - HSLDA
 

rogue synthetic

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Disclaimer: I had a gun in my hands at 5 years old

(It was at a rock quarry, aimed at no people or living animals.)

Another thing , our school system is a holdover from newly industrialized prussia. Pretty sure we have tons of empirical evidence that kids would actually learn more not herded into buildings against their will for forty hours a week. Maybe a simpler solution.
Comparing the discipline and individual education received by 19th century Prussians vs. 21st century Americans might not be the best way to frame this.

I'm sure 'learn better' has some interesting qualifications but...

We can all draw caricatures. Which cartoon has the best resemblance to reality?
 

Roli

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But you didnt really back away did you? You stuck around and kept snarkily telling everyone you backed away and saying things like:
I was drawn back in, sheesh louish, sensitive much? It was hardly snarky, it was a genuine question. Thanks for answering....

Lolz, I actually read that last link, great example of skewed reporting how they manipulated what counted as a potential public shooting, plus another one linked in that story about London's murder rate being higher than New York's, so I thought I'd check that out. Yeah it was, for 2 months.

Again, chill, I'm not coming to take your guns, go nuts, shoot the place up.

Anyway, not to start (snarkily) throwing links at each other, but this one disagrees with your one.

https://splinternews.com/the-good-guy-with-a-gun-is-a-useless-myth-1820182639
 

Roli

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Those that answer Toronto are just arguing to argue because this makes the point perfectly.
Erm no, those that answer Toronto are actually taking some time to critically assess the question.

The question can be boiled down to this, would you prefer to be in a dark room with one person firing wildly, or potentially several?

I'd go for one, simply because in that situation there would be mass panic and confusion, which would only escalate if another one or more people also started firing.

This panic and confusion would hit critical mass when the police showed up, having received reports of multiple shots fired, by multiple assailants.

They, spurred on by self preservation would either just wait outside till the shooting stopped or burst in and start shooting themselves.

I, along with others would be crawling and cowering on the floor, our chances of getting shot would be increased with each armed person firing into the dark.

Ergo, neither situation would be ideal, however I and all the others whom voted Toronto would take the lesser of two evils.

(MJ said he had a pistol, so maybe someone could tackle him whilst he was reloading).
 

Roli

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Tragic.

I honestly don't think it's as black and white as giving teachers guns in schools. Where are they going to keep those guns? Who is going to train them? How many of them are prepared to grab a gun and go towards an armed assailant?

In the army it takes years of training to combat natural instincts to run away in those situations, and the army is full of people who want to be there....

Anyway I like what Carol Dweck says about Columbine in her book Mindset, something along the lines of we have to stop looking at these kids as "misfits" and more as bullied individuals with access to firearms. If we can cut out the culture of bullying in this intense manner, then we can look to eradicating kids wanting to shoot up their schools.

I feel for those parents man, real horrible tragedy.
 

MHP368

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At least this bill requires teachers to undergo 144 hours of training to be certified. They're not exactly just handing out guns to any teacher who wants one. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. I could see it going both ways.
another funny "gotcha" , they can find the money to arm the teachers but they can't pay the teachers a decent living wage (teachers do a lot for our kids, hell even a glorified baby sitter would cost me more to hire privately than they make)

I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
I'm not sure as far as whats actually required state by state so the government isn't breathing down your a$$ but if you start poking about NCBI with keywords like "alternative learning techniques" you'll find troves of inspiration, one thing that stood out for me when I was making my original comment was the fact that in third world countries they were able to just hand small groups of kids a tablet with some premade learning software and the children taught each other (if one kid didnt understand the other kid would help them and they would take turns at the 'helm' of the tablet etc) , its almost as if hundreds of years of experimentation and doctoral thesis on the subject of education have shown that we have a myriad of better ways to actually educate people.

Comparing the discipline and individual education received by 19th century Prussians vs. 21st century Americans might not be the best way to frame this.
lol , thats true, I recall one anecdote - maybe a hundred years off here but still telling. The folks that watched the lincon douglas debates (go look up the transcript) watched that all go down live (many of them middle school aged) then went home and talked about it because they understood what they had just heard and had the cognitive ability to retain it and then flesh it out amongst themselves.

I'm sure 'learn better' has some interesting qualifications but...

We can all draw caricatures. Which cartoon has the best resemblance to reality?
Thats the rub, you could have an easy solution and it still wont be adopted. For instance we have a lack of donor organs right? even though folks die every day, organs go to waste. Did you know psychologist have found that humans are wired to take the path of least resistance? , so when your installing software you usually pick "default" not custom right? , yeh people use this in sales all the time, heres how you would apply it to organ donation, instead of "opt in to become an organ donor" when you are first issued a licence you have to "opt out" of being one, you still retain your agency (your choice in the manner) but most people arent donors from sheer laziness not ill will toward there fellow man

It boggles my mind that we apply every trick in the behavioral psychology book toward sales but never society as a whole (well not really because people dont feel they profit from a better society, its too long term)
 

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Either one would be bad, because as far as I'm aware this mythical good guy when he does show up, gets shot by the police. (Though I reserve the right to be wrong, perhaps someone can point me to a story whereby a random stranger shot a lunatic shooter dead and was him/herself not also shot by the police).
You won't get shot by the police, but you 100% will get arrested. Maybe not charged, but arrested for sure. Police just showed up in response to a shooting and your @ss has a gun. That's why outside of every concealed carry class there's a guy selling subscription based legal if you ever have to use your gun.

I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
You can outsource homeschooling though. For example: my kid is gonna start Kumon for math and reading in a couple months when he turns 3, and I can send him to coding camp to learn computers. I called the international school and found out they'll let you bring your kid for just 1 language class per day, etc. It takes some scavenging, but you can get your kids an education in all kinds of topics that may be beyond your own ability to teach.

Also, and I don't know why this never seems to come up in the discussions of education, but my biggest objection to public school (other than that they'll try to put my daughter on birth control at 10 and convince my son that his high energy is a mental disability) is this: How can you give the state the ability to inform the worldview of those it intends to govern and still call yourself a democracy?
 

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I'm interested in this... Are there alternatives beyond homeschooling that I am missing? This might be a fascinating discussion for its own thread.
When I was in Kindergarten I just did nothing. Didn't fill out any papers, didn't write my name on anything. Apparently my parents and teachers worried I had a mental deficiency or something. My Mom wanted to try a Montessori school, my Dad was skeptical but decided to try it since there was nothing to lose.

I recall bits and pieces of it, basically they had "stations" set up you can wander to and work on whatever you feel like. I found that much more fun and interesting, ended up learning how to read at a 3rd grade level and understood the basics of multiplication. Worked out ok.

We ended up moving and went back to a "normal" school for 1st grade, but by then I had advanced so far there weren't any more issues. But I wonder if I would have advanced further or faster had I stayed in a Montessori school, and if that's what "normal" should be.
 

Kak

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another funny "gotcha" , they can find the money to arm the teachers but they can't pay the teachers a decent living wage (teachers do a lot for our kids, hell even a glorified baby sitter would cost me more to hire privately than they make)
Want a funnier gotcha?

They line up by the thousands to compete for those jobs. Do you want to know what drives up wages for a particular job? A shortage.

We are already paying them over market.
 

Longinus

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I've added a poll with a hypothetical...

You're in a movie theater and a lunatic with a pistol decides to shoot up the place. He has multiple clips.

Would you rather be in a movie theater in Toronto Canada?

Or in Dallas Texas?


For me, the answer is a no brainer. I want to be in Dallas because I'm sure one of my fellow citizens will be there to help stop it. In Canada, you'll be dead before help arrives.
I agree with your opinion.

But can somebody explain why I have never heard about a shooting being stopped by other citizen carrying guns? Were there situations like that or do we (gunless Eurokids) simply never hear from it?
 

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MHP368

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can somebody explain why I have never heard about a shooting being stopped by other citizen carrying guns? Were there situations like that or do we (gunless Eurokids) simply never hear from it?
Ive read about a few , for one the body counts lower so it doesnt get clicks

Honestly though "good guy with a gun" is a dumb myth , unless they arm the teachers and have them hitting the shooting range a few tines a month theyll just as likely shoot students as an assailant when SHTF , adrenaline and a real target tointing back at you tends to mesd your aim up.

Hrll didnt they have an armed cop at one of the shootings and the guy just rode a golf cart around and told 911 a play by play?

Does a teacher who takes a bullet for a kid get a purple heart and a pension? Because teachers have families too and the calculus on engaging a school shooter probably changes quite a bit when its your a$$ on the line

I say you take the "school" out of the equation , our culture surrounding guns and violence isnt going to change anytime soon , and "mental health" is another non starter (tons of these shooters never had any run ins with police or mental health proffesionals or anyone that could "catch it early")
 

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Those that answer Toronto are just arguing to argue because this makes the point perfectly.
I don't think that's true at all.

For starters - the poll isn't really "fair" in the first place. It's more of a "push poll" that is clearly worded to encourage one answer over another.

If the poll was created to encourage the opposite answer, it might be worded: "Where would you rather live with your family? In a place where the gun-related homicide rate is 4.46 per 100k people (The USA), or a place where the rate is 0.06 (The UK and Canada)?"

Or we could go even more extreme with the same numbers and ask "Would you move your family to a place where you are 74.3% more likely to die by a gun?"

Now one could say "those that answer 4.46 / 74.3% are just arguing to argue, because this makes the point perfectly" about the exact opposite answer than the one the original poll suggested.

These aren't fair questions because you look like a fool if you pick "I'd rather be unarmed in a shootout" or "I'd rather live in a place with more gun violence".

But now we're into statistics, where folks on both sides have a plethora of arguments and sources for and against both sides of the argument. For what it's worth I pulled those stats from wikipedia, which was lazy, but the numbers were of less importance to me than the point I was trying to make about unfair questions that try to push people towards a preferred response.

To be 100% clear - I'm not against gun ownership. My wife and I would actually like to own one for our own protection one day. I also really enjoyed firing some guns down in Vegas a while back and valued the freedom to do so easily.

I just genuinely believe it's a highly subjective topic and the answers you get are going to be based on an individual's culture, heritage, location, and experiences.
 

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I just genuinely believe it's a highly subjective topic and the answers you get are going to be based on an individual's culture, heritage, location, and experiences.
Scott Adams I think makes that argument better than anyone

https://blog.dilbert.com/2018/04/01/the-fake-gun-control-debate/

EDIT: He makes the argument that it's subjective based on experience/current circumstances

If you go to the bottom of the article where he articulates, "honest" opinions on guns, my personal honest feeling is similar but a little different. It goes something like this.

Allowing citizens to own guns will result in the unnecessary deaths of thousands of people. Allowing governments to own guns results in the unnecessary deaths of 10s of millions of people. The widespread circulation of guns in the population puts at least some fear in the minds of overreaching politicians of being murdered in their beds should they decide to put people in cattle cars. Therefore, the net present value, in terms of innocent deaths of allowing people to own guns is, subjectively in my estimation, lower than the number of innocent deaths caused at a future date by weapons in the hands of the state.
 
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