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RANT Florida Teachers Can What?

You're IN a theater and a lunatic w/a pistol decides to shoot up the place. Where would u rather be?

  • Dallas, Texas

    Votes: 20 71.4%
  • Toronto, Canada

    Votes: 8 28.6%

  • Total voters
    28
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404profound

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I'm normally not a political person, but I'm sorry, I have to say something about this. This is probably the most poorly thought-out policy I've ever seen. I can't even believe this is real.

Florida teachers can arm themselves under new gun bill - Reuters

Think about the risks. A teacher leaves a gun unattended. A teacher is harassed and looses their temper. The list goes on and on. I don't see how this won't end horribly.
 

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lowtek

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The same argument applies to police officers or any other state enforcer that is mandated to carry a firearm. Many schools have police officers, and i don't often hear of their firearms being used for nefarious purposes. Very few teachers will actually exercise this right, so the odds of something going wrong are quite low. It's far more likely the students get in an auto accident on the way to school than they get injured with a firearm while at school.

I'm OK with bills like this because the facts are that a) the police have no duty to protect anyone (yes, this is a fact) b) even when they want to help, they are minutes away and c) the type of people to carry a gun every single day understand the gravity of that decision and take it very very seriously.

I'm curious, what's your personal background with firearms?
 

404profound

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The same argument applies to police officers or any other state enforcer that is mandated to carry a firearm. Many schools have police officers, and i don't often hear of their firearms being used for nefarious purposes. Very few teachers will actually exercise this right, so the odds of something going wrong are quite low. It's far more likely the students get in an auto accident on the way to school than they get injured with a firearm while at school.

I'm OK with bills like this because the facts are that a) the police have no duty to protect anyone (yes, this is a fact) b) even when they want to help, they are minutes away and c) the type of people to carry a gun every single day understand the gravity of that decision and take it very very seriously.

I'm curious, what's your personal background with firearms?
I admittedly have almost no background with firearms. I just look at the profile of your average high school teacher and see psychological risk.
 

ryanbleau

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Not really a militia guy. But having grown up with firearms and live in Az where you can hunt and shoot year round, I'm a strong believer in freedom. I carry almost every day, not in the office though. My point is that they should have every right to defend their life and take responsibility for protecting the young they are entrusted with with every possible tool they have available. I would have no issue to my kids teacher carrying.
 

lowtek

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I admittedly have almost no background with firearms. I just look at the profile of your average high school teacher and see psychological risk.
Ok, that's quite understandable. I'll be the first to admit that I'm a little leery of trusting other people with guns, but we have to apply that standard fairly. It stands to reason that police and law enforcement are drawn from the same population as teachers. We would therefore expect similar characteristics between them, and so we can look at what happens with police and see if accidents are a huge problem.

They're generally not, and so I wouldn't expect accidents to be a problem among teachers.

Now, many people believe that police are magically qualified to carry guns. The reality is that after qualifying with their firearm at the academy, most departments never test their officers again. The idea of the highly trained police officer is largely a myth, at least to the extent that it is required for the job.

If you've never really been exposed to guns, fear is a natural response. I wasn't around them much early in life and the first time I saw someone open carrying a gun, I experienced fear. After thinking about it critically, I realized that cops are just people, and just because someone isn't wearing a costume doesn't mean they are a danger if they have a gun.
 

lowtek

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Not really a militia guy. But having grown up with firearms and live in Az where you can hunt and shoot year round, I'm a strong believer in freedom. I carry almost every day, not in the office though. My point is that they should have every right to defend their life and take responsibility for protecting the young they are entrusted with with every possible tool they have available. I would have no issue to my kids teacher carrying.
My point was that anti gunners typically point out the "well regulated militia" portion of the 2A, while ignoring the "shall not be infringed" portion.

I live in PHX and I carry every time I leave the house. I've seen homeless people carrying swords, no joke... so I figured if we got homeless ninjas running around, I better have something with a little more range.
 

Kak

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The same argument applies to police officers or any other state enforcer that is mandated to carry a firearm. Many schools have police officers, and i don't often hear of their firearms being used for nefarious purposes. Very few teachers will actually exercise this right, so the odds of something going wrong are quite low. It's far more likely the students get in an auto accident on the way to school than they get injured with a firearm while at school.

I'm OK with bills like this because the facts are that a) the police have no duty to protect anyone (yes, this is a fact) b) even when they want to help, they are minutes away and c) the type of people to carry a gun every single day understand the gravity of that decision and take it very very seriously.

I'm curious, what's your personal background with firearms?
Dead on.

@404profound Would you rather teachers have zero ability to defend your children?

Gun safety is paramount. No one I know, that carries a gun, and I know a lot of them, are flippant about doing so.

Concealed carriers are responsible for almost no crime statistically speaking. No. Hotheads do not go on shooting sprees. No. There isnt blood in the streets. No. Guns aren't accidentally going off.

I have carried a handgun daily for nearly 10 years.

Criminals, by definition, break the law... So atempting to control criminals with laws is utter nonsense.

images (1).jpeg
 

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ryanbleau

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My point was that anti gunners typically point out the "well regulated militia" portion of the 2A, while ignoring the "shall not be infringed" portion.

I live in PHX and I carry every time I leave the house. I've seen homeless people carrying swords, no joke... so I figured if we got homeless ninjas running around, I better have something with a little more range.
I've seen some crazy things here in Scottsdale and Phoenix. It's my responsibility to keep my family safe so I treat that responsibility with the same respect. I carry when I leave the house. In Kansas I carried too but we had wildlife bigger than a rattlesnake.
 

ideasunlimited1

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I'm normally not a political person, but I'm sorry, I have to say something about this. This is probably the most poorly thought-out policy I've ever seen. I can't even believe this is real.

Florida teachers can arm themselves under new gun bill - Reuters

Think about the risks. A teacher leaves a gun unattended. A teacher is harassed and looses their temper. The list goes on and on. I don't see how this won't end horribly.
You're not the only one baffled by this. As a former teacher, I can tell you that educators are some of the most stressed out individuals ever, and in a moment of stress I would not want them to be reactive and grab a gun. Yes, many people can be responsible, but when you are chronically tired, bad decisions get made. And I doubt that local districts will be willing to pay for safes or areas where guns can be put away safely.

I'd rather instead of guns within the room for teachers, we focus on funding early intervention and train teachers on how to actually determine at risk kids and get them out of the classroom if need be. Right now we just let kids stay enrolled and reward violent behavior as opposed to making it clear that if they want to be in school they need to get treatment for the behavior.
 
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xmartel

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Canada, eh!
Now, many people believe that police are magically qualified to carry guns. The reality is that after qualifying with their firearm at the academy, most departments never test their officers again. The idea of the highly trained police officer is largely a myth, at least to the extent that it is required for the job.
This is very true. Most people would be shocked to learn that the average gun enthusiast is a far better and more accurate shot than the average cop.

I support what Florida is doing here.

Here in Canada, we can't carry at all (other than some exceptions for trap lines and armored car guard).
I find it disgusting, and a breach of my rights as a human, that my government has decreed that I (nor any of my fellow countrymen and women) am not trust worthy enough to protect my life. My right to exist.

Just like in the U.S., our cops don't have a duty to protect either.

So who's duty is it to protect you? It's your own.

So then how do you protect yourself? With the best tool available and proper training. A gun.
 

MTEE1985

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It's far more likely the students get in an auto accident on the way to school than they get injured with a firearm while at school.
Absolutely but “high school student dies in car crash” won’t get people riled up and screaming for cars to be banned during the evening news.

We all know (well, most of us) that it’s a confirmation bias for our government and those who just want to yell and be angry about something. That’s why we get pummeled with “school shootings are on the rise” every time there is one. Well, that may be true, conveniently left out is that the number of students is growing exponentially so as a percentage there has been a decline since the 90’s and students are safer than ever.

Criminals, by definition, break the law... So atempting to control criminals with laws is utter nonsense.
You mean we can’t tell these A-holes to just play nice and smother them with affection?

I would be ecstatic if as my children got older their teachers were basically qualified and carried a weapon. Sadly I’m in the wrong part of AZ for that to likely ever happen. At least they’ll be armed with their words :smuggy:
 

jesseissorude

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"Shall not be infringed"
I always thought this was weird when people post "SHALL not infringe!" like that's the end of the argument.

The constitution also protects your right to vote, but that right can be revoked perfectly legally. Are all voting laws unconstitutional?
 

Vigilante

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I'm normally not a political person, but I'm sorry, I have to say something about this. This is probably the most poorly thought-out policy I've ever seen. I can't even believe this is real.

Florida teachers can arm themselves under new gun bill - Reuters

Think about the risks. A teacher leaves a gun unattended. A teacher is harassed and looses their temper. The list goes on and on. I don't see how this won't end horribly.
I am a Florida resident with a child in Florida schools, and i think this is FABULOUS.

Shooters are cowards. When they know that the first person they start shooting at shoots back, they'll go find another movie theater or somewhere else to play their cowardly act. Gun free zones are a joke. Soft targets are why assholes pick elementary schools.

I will accept the risks as above. Hell, I will BUY MY KIDS TEACHER A GUN if she wants one and agrees to get licensed for it.

Conceal carry permit holders, en masse, are responsible. Not only that, they have a constitutional right to carry it anyway.

I am 100% for it. Waiting for the first news story of some jackass getting their head blown off by a kindergarten teacher, and the whole bunch of copycat cowards will find somewhere else, and my kid will come home safely.
 

lowtek

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I always thought this was weird when people post "SHALL not infringe!" like that's the end of the argument.

The constitution also protects your right to vote, but that right can be revoked perfectly legally. Are all voting laws unconstitutional?
The right to defend your person and property is fundamental; a natural right. We have had this right since before the advent of modern government

The "right" to choose your rulers is less fundamental and only a consequence of the modern system of governance.

Off topic, but relevant to your query, I don't believe everybody should have the right to vote. If you're not a net tax payer and can pass a basic written test about the candidates and their positions, your vote shouldn't count.
 

jesseissorude

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The "right" to choose your rulers is less fundamental and only a consequence of the modern system of governance.
Isn't it? Choosing your leader seems pretty primal. Even cavemen had to individually select/deselect themselves as the alpha of the group.

But all that said, I'm a proud gun owner myself, and--regardless of what you think about the Florida law (I'm actually in favor of it)--the thought that all gun laws are unconstitutional is absurd. I'm glad I had to take a certification course to get my CCW permit, for example. That's a sane law.
 

ideasunlimited1

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Isn't it? Choosing your leader seems pretty primal. Even cavemen had to individually select/deselect themselves as the alpha of the group.

But all that said, I'm a proud gun owner myself, and--regardless of what you think about the Florida law (I'm actually in favor of it)--the thought that all gun laws are unconstitutional is absurd. I'm glad I had to take a certification course to get my CCW permit, for example. That's a sane law.
I can agree with this. I'm a fan of hunting, and grew up in MN-a pretty gun friendly state. But I agree that just like driving, there needs to be some certification or training to show that you can understand safe and responsible gun behavior. Guns are designed to kill, whether it be animals (and hopefully not) humans. The right to take away life is a very serious thing...it is a right, but that doesn't mean it has to be used.
 

Kak

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My point was that anti gunners typically point out the "well regulated militia" portion of the 2A, while ignoring the "shall not be infringed" portion.
Actually there is a comma there. The founding fathers had good grammar. Most people ignore it.

I'll translate...

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

In 2019 speak it literally translates to this:

BECAUSE we pretty much have to have a military to protect our sovereignty, we are going to protect the rights of the PEOPLE to also be armed.

The founding fathers really hated tyranny. They begrudgingly set up a military.
 

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eliquid

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Whether or not this law passed, a teacher could still carry a gun into a school if they wanted and do bad things.

Just the same as a criminal could.

Why do the gun haters only have a concern when a new gun rights law is passed? The risk was the same before.

I own guns. I carry. I do it even in places that say I can't. No one else is going to dictate me or my family's safety.

.
 
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G-Man

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Actually there is a comma there. The founding fathers had good grammar. Most people ignore it.

I'll translate...

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

In 2019 speak it literally translates to this:

BECAUSE we pretty much have to have a military to protect our sovereignty, we are going to protect the rights of the PEOPLE to also be armed.

The founding fathers really hated tyranny. They begrudgingly set up a military.
I think where people get confused with the bill of rights is because a lot of it is written aphoristically. It's making general declarations of what is recognized to be true, rather than enumerating and therefore granting rights. In other words, the bill of rights doesn't give you any rights, it simply recognizes that you already have those rights. It's a very important distinction. It was a actually a pretty intense matter of debate about whether there should even be a bill of rights. There was concern that including a bill of rights would give people the false impression that the government was giving citizens those rights. If government gives something it can take it away. This is where I plug the Federalist Papers. Basically, if you are an American who votes, and are literate, you have, in my opinion, a civic responsibility to have read them.

Every other time in the phrase "the people" is used in the text, it means all citizens. If we interpret it to means something else in this clause, it opens it up for interpretation everywhere else.

Also, the militia "being necessary to the security of a free state". What does it say? What does it not say?
It's not referring to the national defense, there's an entire other portion of the document for that. It also doesn't say defense, it says "security". So, security of what?

Security of the state? No, it doesn't say "the state", it says "a free state". So now, what is the militia for? It ensures the state remains free. And who is the militia? In the parlance of the time the militia was every able bodied adult male in good community standing. Basically if you're an adult with all your limbs and no felonies, congrats, you're in the militia.

I'm thinking of getting a musket and one of those three pointed hats. If anybody else is down we can go form a militia, maybe have a monthly militia barbecue or something. :rofl:
 

MJ DeMarco

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I just look at the profile of your average high school teacher and see psychological risk.
Some might trust a random teacher with a firearm MORE than they would a police officer. A certain "personality" tends to go into law enforcement more so than a teacher.

I see nothing wrong with it, provide there's some rules (lock boxed), training, etc involved.

After reading the responses from folks I definitely have a different perspective now. I suppose the risk of not doing it outweighs the risk of doing it.
Impressive that you are looking at both angles, most people would further entrench their belief when presented with other opinions, a.k.a. as the cognitive bias, the backfire effect.
 

Merging Left

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At least this bill requires teachers to undergo 144 hours of training to be certified. They're not exactly just handing out guns to any teacher who wants one. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. I could see it going both ways.
 

AgainstAllOdds

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I highly recommend you take a gun safety class whether or not you're interested in getting a gun.

In Illinois, they require a 16 hour course to conceal carry. If you take one of those classes, you'll have a better idea of whose carrying guns and why they're carrying.

They're all individuals with:
  • No criminal record
  • No recorded history of mental illness.
  • People that want to protect themselves or their families.
Criminals don't go to conceal carry classes. They already have guns. It's just normal people that want to even the odds.

The Florida law is evening the playing field. That's all it's doing. School shooters today can waltz into any school and shoot at will. With this law, chances are that they'll be put down right away. A good recent example of this is the synagogue in California. A guy walked in, killed one individual, and then was instantly put down (note: the media doesn't report the majority of pro-gun carrying stories).

At least this bill requires teachers to undergo 144 hours of training to be certified. They're not exactly just handing out guns to any teacher who wants one. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. I could see it going both ways.
With 144 hours of training, you bet your a$$ that the one's qualified to carry will have guns on them. That's 3.6 work weeks that someone is sacrificing so that they can protect the school.
 

404profound

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Some might trust a random teacher with a firearm MORE than they would a police officer. A certain "personality" tends to go into law enforcement more so than a teacher.

I see nothing wrong with it, provide there's some rules (lock boxed), training, etc involved.



Impressive that you are looking at both angles, most people would further entrench their belief when presented with other opinions, a.k.a. as the cognitive bias, the backfire effect.
A month ago I may not have, but after doing user testing on my app I've been humbled haha!
 

Merging Left

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With 144 hours of training, you bet your a$$ that the one's qualified to carry will have guns on them. That's 3.6 work weeks that someone is sacrificing so that they can protect the school.
With teacher's unions, you can bet that they're being paid for that training. For some it might just be a good vacation away from the students!
 

ZF Lee

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I am a Florida resident with a child in Florida schools, and i think this is FABULOUS.

Shooters are cowards. When they know that the first person they start shooting at shoots back, they'll go find another movie theater or somewhere else to play their cowardly act. Gun free zones are a joke. Soft targets are why assholes pick elementary schools.

I will accept the risks as above. Hell, I will BUY MY KIDS TEACHER A GUN if she wants one and agrees to get licensed for it.

Conceal carry permit holders, en masse, are responsible. Not only that, they have a constitutional right to carry it anyway.

I am 100% for it. Waiting for the first news story of some jackass getting their head blown off by a kindergarten teacher, and the whole bunch of copycat cowards will find somewhere else, and my kid will come home safely.
Sad that my own country doesn't have these kind of means to enable everyone to protect themselves.

We've got stupid goons who prowl the streets looking to nab or stab someone.
Surely a few revolver shots should send them begging on their knees...

Normally, the citizens won't touch guns, but I think mindsets are changing, as they find that the cops can't always come in time...

An uncle of mine was so worried about the criminal fallout a recession would bring that he bought a paintball online, and loaded it with LEAD SHOTS and MARBLES.

Probably would work if he hit headshots...:p

If anybody else is down we can go form a militia, maybe have a monthly militia barbecue or something.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdmPIpQZPRg
 

Samix

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Shooters are cowards. When they know that the first person they start shooting at shoots back, they'll go find another movie theater or somewhere else to play their cowardly act. Gun free zones are a joke. Soft targets are why assholes pick elementary schools.

I am 100% for it. Waiting for the first news story of some jackass getting their head blown off by a kindergarten teacher, and the whole bunch of copycat cowards will find somewhere else, and my kid will come home safely.
This is exactly what I thought when I read it. They only go there because it's declared 'gun-free' and now the school may not be the easy massacre that they had hoped it would be.
 

AgainstAllOdds

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Sad that my own country doesn't have these kind of means to enable everyone to protect themselves.

We've got stupid goons who prowl the streets looking to nab or stab someone.
Surely a few revolver shots should send them begging on their knees...
That sucks man.

Some thoughts slightly off topic...

What a lot of people don't realize is that there's a lot of peace of mind benefits to owning and carrying a gun other than the ones mentioned in this thread. For business owners, a big one is knowing that no one can come and just take your business.

I've heard horror stories from friends of friends that tried to build successful businesses in Asia. They start out, work their a$$ off, and get traction. Once they get traction, they attract attention. Once they attract attention, they attract the mafia. The mafia comes, and asks for a percentage. As the business grows, they ask for more. Until finally, they come and have you sign over the business. Nothing you can do about it.

Meanwhile in the U.S., good luck pulling that stunt.

Organized crime obviously still exists, but nowhere near the level that it does in other countries. My dad came here from a former Soviet bloc country, and to this day has irrational fears from his upbringing. He believes that if you take a competitor's clients, that someone will eventually come for you. It's irrational fears like those which prevent a lot of people from starting a business. My mindset: maybe someone will come, but F*ck it. I don't have a family to lose, and we typically have enough guns around us to take out most maniacs. Put your head down. Provide value. Grow the business. Don't worry about things you shouldn't be worried about.
 

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I think it's 100% right.

The Supreme Court has ruled that no law enforcement official has any duty to protect you or me. They don't have to risk their lives for anybody.

Then to deny individuals the option to self-defense is morally wrong.

I think anybody with training could have the right judgment and dexterity to handle a firearm.
 

Yzn

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That sucks man.

Some thoughts slightly off topic...

What a lot of people don't realize is that there's a lot of peace of mind benefits to owning and carrying a gun other than the ones mentioned in this thread. For business owners, a big one is knowing that no one can come and just take your business.

I've heard horror stories from friends of friends that tried to build successful businesses in Asia. They start out, work their a$$ off, and get traction. Once they get traction, they attract attention. Once they attract attention, they attract the mafia. The mafia comes, and asks for a percentage. As the business grows, they ask for more. Until finally, they come and have you sign over the business. Nothing you can do about it.

Meanwhile in the U.S., good luck pulling that stunt.

Organized crime obviously still exists, but nowhere near the level that it does in other countries. My dad came here from a former Soviet bloc country, and to this day has irrational fears from his upbringing. He believes that if you take a competitor's clients, that someone will eventually come for you. It's irrational fears like those which prevent a lot of people from starting a business. My mindset: maybe someone will come, but F*ck it. I don't have a family to lose, and we typically have enough guns around us to take out most maniacs. Put your head down. Provide value. Grow the business. Don't worry about things you shouldn't be worried about.
Happens here everyday.
Location: poorer countries of the Middle-East.
 

G-Man

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I think it's 100% right.

The Supreme Court has ruled that no law enforcement official has any duty to protect you or me. They don't have to risk their lives for anybody.

Then to deny individuals the option to self-defense is morally wrong.

I think anybody with training could have the right judgment and dexterity to handle a firearm.
From a cop friend: We can't protect anybody. We can't be everywhere all the time. All we can really do is figure out what happened and try to catch the person that did it after the fact.

Something to think about. I think a more succinct way I've heard it put is: Police aren't there to prevent someone from killing you, they're there to identify the body.

EDIT: This is not criticism of the police. It's not their fault that they can't be everywhere all the time and lack the ability to predict the future.
 

WJK

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Not really a militia guy. But having grown up with firearms and live in Az where you can hunt and shoot year round, I'm a strong believer in freedom. I carry almost every day, not in the office though. My point is that they should have every right to defend their life and take responsibility for protecting the young they are entrusted with with every possible tool they have available. I would have no issue to my kids teacher carrying.
I live in Alaska, and we carry a weapon most of the time. It's an "open carry state" where you don't need a permit. The Troopers are 45 minutes from us, so we must handle all types of situations ourselves. And no, I have NEVER drawn my weapon on a two legged critter (a person). Bears, coyotes, wolves, and moose are a different story. But, everyone around us knows that both my husband and I are packing most of the time. I grew up in Ozark Mountains in Missouri with a gun in one hand and fishing pole in the other. A gun is natural in my hand. When I must shoot, I don't miss -- I shoot to kill.
My reputation in my community gleans me an aurora of respect. People really don't mess with me much. (And I have a bunch of men around me that would tear anyone to pieces who would dare to be disrespectful.) Everyone knows that I run a very tight ship with my mobile home park, my tenants, and my investments. I have 50 kids who live on my property and watch after them all. I have helped people to point where I have become the "mother duck" around here. It's my life's work. And in the end, I am being rewarded for all of the blood, sweat, and tears I put into it, by gaining my community's respect. What more can a person ask for?
 

AdamMaxum

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Is the answer to combat gun violence/protect yourself or those around you... to give/encourage more people to have their own guns to protect themselves and others? I don't know. Where does it end? Until every respectable citizen has a concealed carry permit to protect themselves? Every worker in every public place has a gun on them? Kids working at movie theatres. Teachers. My waitress/waiter. The walmart greeter.

I'm not against guns, I just don't know if I want to live in a World where it becomes required (for your safety) to own and possess a gun anytime you go out because there is a risk of being shot/attacked, but I guess that's the World we live in.
 

MJ DeMarco

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I just don't know if I want to live in a World where it becomes required (for your safety) to own and possess a gun anytime you go out because there is a risk of being shot/attacked
Not really realistic, if a lunatic wants to shoot up some place, you only need one or two "friendlies" who can stop the bloodshed. You don't need the entire place to be packing.
 

G-Man

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The walmart greeter.
You clearly haven't been in a Walmart lately. Not a chance I'd be hanging out at the front door of that place after dark without a strap :rofl:
 

AdamMaxum

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Not really realistic, if a lunatic wants to shoot up some place, you only need one or two "friendlies" who can stop the bloodshed. You don't need the entire place to be packing.
True, but if it becomes the expectation...that's where we're headed.

Example: Florida allows it...it works out...then every other state begins adopting the practice until kids everywhere have now become conditioned to expect teachers in schools everywhere to be armed. It now becomes a standard that most teachers abide by.

Duplicate this across other industries, public places, etc.etc. More people with more guns.

I'm not even anti-gun or anything...I just don't know if I'm more comfortable knowing there are people all around me with guns or the occasional random shooter I probably won't ever come into contact with.

I definitely think schools need to do more in terms of safety. Better door lock systems...better trained guards...metal detector systems at every door...whatever else.

I think every movie theatre and public place should have at least 1-2 security guys -- it should become the businesses responsibility to ensure their employees or the public be safe while at their location, not the actual employees themselves.
 
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