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RANT Florida Teachers Can What?

You're IN a theater and a lunatic w/a pistol decides to shoot up the place. Where would u rather be?

  • Dallas, Texas

    Votes: 20 71.4%
  • Toronto, Canada

    Votes: 8 28.6%

  • Total voters
    28
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Raoul Duke

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MHP368

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can somebody explain why I have never heard about a shooting being stopped by other citizen carrying guns? Were there situations like that or do we (gunless Eurokids) simply never hear from it?
Ive read about a few , for one the body counts lower so it doesnt get clicks

Honestly though "good guy with a gun" is a dumb myth , unless they arm the teachers and have them hitting the shooting range a few tines a month theyll just as likely shoot students as an assailant when SHTF , adrenaline and a real target tointing back at you tends to mesd your aim up.

Hrll didnt they have an armed cop at one of the shootings and the guy just rode a golf cart around and told 911 a play by play?

Does a teacher who takes a bullet for a kid get a purple heart and a pension? Because teachers have families too and the calculus on engaging a school shooter probably changes quite a bit when its your a$$ on the line

I say you take the "school" out of the equation , our culture surrounding guns and violence isnt going to change anytime soon , and "mental health" is another non starter (tons of these shooters never had any run ins with police or mental health proffesionals or anyone that could "catch it early")
 

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Those that answer Toronto are just arguing to argue because this makes the point perfectly.
I don't think that's true at all.

For starters - the poll isn't really "fair" in the first place. It's more of a "push poll" that is clearly worded to encourage one answer over another.

If the poll was created to encourage the opposite answer, it might be worded: "Where would you rather live with your family? In a place where the gun-related homicide rate is 4.46 per 100k people (The USA), or a place where the rate is 0.06 (The UK and Canada)?"

Or we could go even more extreme with the same numbers and ask "Would you move your family to a place where you are 74.3% more likely to die by a gun?"

Now one could say "those that answer 4.46 / 74.3% are just arguing to argue, because this makes the point perfectly" about the exact opposite answer than the one the original poll suggested.

These aren't fair questions because you look like a fool if you pick "I'd rather be unarmed in a shootout" or "I'd rather live in a place with more gun violence".

But now we're into statistics, where folks on both sides have a plethora of arguments and sources for and against both sides of the argument. For what it's worth I pulled those stats from wikipedia, which was lazy, but the numbers were of less importance to me than the point I was trying to make about unfair questions that try to push people towards a preferred response.

To be 100% clear - I'm not against gun ownership. My wife and I would actually like to own one for our own protection one day. I also really enjoyed firing some guns down in Vegas a while back and valued the freedom to do so easily.

I just genuinely believe it's a highly subjective topic and the answers you get are going to be based on an individual's culture, heritage, location, and experiences.
 

G-Man

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I just genuinely believe it's a highly subjective topic and the answers you get are going to be based on an individual's culture, heritage, location, and experiences.
Scott Adams I think makes that argument better than anyone

https://blog.dilbert.com/2018/04/01/the-fake-gun-control-debate/

EDIT: He makes the argument that it's subjective based on experience/current circumstances

If you go to the bottom of the article where he articulates, "honest" opinions on guns, my personal honest feeling is similar but a little different. It goes something like this.

Allowing citizens to own guns will result in the unnecessary deaths of thousands of people. Allowing governments to own guns results in the unnecessary deaths of 10s of millions of people. The widespread circulation of guns in the population puts at least some fear in the minds of overreaching politicians of being murdered in their beds should they decide to put people in cattle cars. Therefore, the net present value, in terms of innocent deaths of allowing people to own guns is, subjectively in my estimation, lower than the number of innocent deaths caused at a future date by weapons in the hands of the state.
 
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G-Man

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That was a great read and he said it far better than I did.
He says most things better than most people. I had never read anything by him until Think Bigly, and have been following ever since. He's one of those great authors like Daniel Kahneman that can say things that help you see your own bullshit, but he can say it in a way that makes you receptive to listen.
 

Kak

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Honestly though "good guy with a gun" is a dumb myth , unless they arm the teachers and have them hitting the shooting range a few tines a month theyll just as likely shoot students as an assailant when SHTF , adrenaline and a real target tointing back at you tends to mesd your aim up
Do you own any guns? Do you frequent the gun range? Do you know remotely what it is like to shoot a gun? It sounds like CNN coming out of your mouth here.

 

ryanbleau

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Venezuela lost the right to own firearms because socialist progressivist agenda, now the government mows them down in the street while they beg for food. Germany lost the right to own firearms because socialist progressivist agendas and people were rounded up and killed in camps. Cambodia......
Cuba.... see where this is going? For some reason socialists need to take away firearms to enforce their "values" on the masses. When people start saying you need less firearms in society is the perfect time to get more into society legally.
 

MHP368

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Do you own any guns? Do you frequent the gun range? Do you know remotely what it is like to shoot a gun? It sounds like CNN coming out of your mouth here.

Yeh , I have 3 handguns a shotgun and a weird little 22

You ever read these articles about the police eho shoot everything but the target? Those are trained gun users who arent keeping up with training by going to gun ranges regularly.

So what , we arm the teachers and require gun range training often enough to make them an actual viable deterent? Seems a terrible convoluted way to make a square peg fit in a round hole. I think its much more practical and cost saving (not to mention beneficial for actual education) to just reform our school system and shutter the damn things.

Take the school out of school shootings so we only have to fear malls and retail shops and post offices and movie theaters and churches. Lol (I joke but im in arizona where I could actually expect in any of those places that a high possibility exists of the noble "good guy with a gun" existing , and wr dont have to pay them extra or enforce gun range training , we do that for fun)
 

Kak

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Venezuela lost the right to own firearms because socialist progressivist agenda, now the government mows them down in the street while they beg for food. Germany lost the right to own firearms because socialist progressivist agendas and people were rounded up and killed in camps. Cambodia......
Cuba.... see where this is going? For some reason socialists need to take away firearms to enforce their "values" on the masses. When people start saying you need less firearms in society is the perfect time to get more into society legally.
At the point when the folks that believe the government knows what is best want to shoot back... It is too late.
 

Longinus

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Venezuela lost the right to own firearms because socialist progressivist agenda, now the government mows them down in the street while they beg for food. Germany lost the right to own firearms because socialist progressivist agendas and people were rounded up and killed in camps. Cambodia......
Cuba.... see where this is going? For some reason socialists need to take away firearms to enforce their "values" on the masses. When people start saying you need less firearms in society is the perfect time to get more into society legally.
This is often used as an argument, but must gun-free countries don't have a gov shooting on their citizen, far from it even. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your standpoint. But the argument is out of proportion.
 

MHP368

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poll isn't really "fair" in the first place. It's more of a "push poll" that is clearly worded to encourage one answer over another.
Actually I answered toronto because I know in a shooting id probably get shot and not die. I was thinking about better healthcare outcome and cost (technically the best er to end up with if shot is in Philadelphia if memory serves just based on how oftenthe doctors deal with shootings)
It didnt occur to me that the poll was asking about "good guy with a gun" factor until you folks started discussing it lol
 

Kak

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Yeh , I have 3 handguns a shotgun and a weird little 22

You ever read these articles about the police eho shoot everything but the target? Those are trained gun users who arent keeping up with training by going to gun ranges regularly.

So what , we arm the teachers and require gun range training often enough to make them an actual viable deterent? Seems a terrible convoluted way to make a square peg fit in a round hole. I think its much more practical and cost saving (not to mention beneficial for actual education) to just reform our school system and shutter the damn things.

Take the school out of school shootings so we only have to fear malls and retail shops and post offices and movie theaters and churches. Lol (I joke but im in arizona where I could actually expect in any of those places that a high possibility exists of the noble "good guy with a gun" existing , and wr dont have to pay them extra or enforce gun range training , we do that for fun)
In my extensive experience with firearms... you are either proficient or not. I haven't been to the range in 6 months, but when I do go, I will do well. My wife will do well. We handle firearms daily.

Those cops you speak of? It is true and it is reprehensible. Makes just about as much sense as a 400 pound cop. Agreed.

I don't know why that happens, but some people just do the bare minimum to get by. They must be in it for the job, not to do the job well.

My take, folks that choose to carry take it really seriously. My mother, we took her to the range 10 times. She never operated in a fully proficient manner. She shouldn't carry... And she doesn't... Why? Because not being proficient scares her.

Remember this is a serious thing. The first day I strapped a loaded gun on my hip and went into public was a huge responsibility. I took and still take it very seriously.

Now... I am losing faith in humanity a bit. Should some of these retards be buying firearms? No. Should they be allowed to? Probably not but you can't draw that line. We are trying to make things equal again for people that are unequal.

I do like what @G-Man had to say. The second amendment might save the dirt we call home from some pretty messed up stuff in the future... But who am I kidding they will just take our guns first and half of people will cheer.
 
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Kak

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This is often used as an argument, but must gun-free countries don't have a gov shooting on their citizen, far from it even. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your standpoint. But the argument is out of proportion.
They are a good example of a once prosperous democracy that turned to progressivist socialism relatively recently.

Germany is another example of a country that confiscated the privately owned firearms before their Nazi Reich. We know how that turned out.

They were both industrialized nations with wealth and opportunity. That said, we need to come to one of the two following conclusions from these examples to reconcile it to our beliefs:

-We are better than the Venezuelans and Germans and they are bad or stupid or bigoted people.
Or
-A voting majority of humans can fall susceptible to bad political ideas that lead down a really bad path.
 
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Fox

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If you are worried about teachers being armed I would start with finding better teachers.

If you can't trust them with a gun then why are you giving them your kid for over ten years?
 

Longinus

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They are a good example of a once prosperous democracy that turned to progressivist socialism relatively recently.

Germany is another example of a country that confiscated the privately owned firearms before their Nazi Reich. We know how that turned out.

There were both industrialized nations with wealth and opportunity. That said, we need to come to one of the two following conclusions from these examples to reconcile it to our beliefs:

-We are better than the Venezuelans and Germans and they are bad or stupid or bigoted people.
Or
-A voting majority of humans can fall susceptible to bad political ideas that lead down a really bad path.
They are 2 examples vs tons of examples where govs are not shooting at the citizen (like almost all of Europe nowadays).
 

Kak

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They are 2 examples vs tons of examples where govs are not shooting at the citizen (like almost all of Europe nowadays).
Agreed. Totally understand, but political instability does happen in unlikely places. Just because it is stable now doesn't mean it will stay that way.

To argue otherwise would be to argue that Germans and Venezuelans just had something wrong with them.

"We (insert nationality here)s would never support such a thing."

Yeah right...I bet the Venezuelans said the same thing about the Germans.
 
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MHP368

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They must be in it for the job, not to do the job well.
Right and to get us back on topic for I fear we have veered away this is exactly why arming teachers is such an absurd answer. Only in "kindergarten cop" does a teacher with 5 year olds make a great candidate as a school shooting hero.

And lets lets rem that simply arming the teachers was a concession to the actual cost of having an armed guard present during school hours (im im s some schools do this right now)

They want the teachers , who got into teaching in order to teach. To not only double as parents and counselors and disciplinarians and all the other hats they wear but now be fearless warriors and good marksmen?

Im Sure the existing shortage of teachers and high turnover won't be effected at all. Oh! And now the classroom has a loaded gun in it so the would be shooter doesnt even have to get passed the metal detector just overpower one teacher. I know all my middle and highschool teachers were trained martial artists who did powerlifting as a hobby so no worries here.

Frankly this idea stinks. Its absurd that this is bring framed as a solution.
 

NaPal

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I admittedly have almost no background with firearms. I just look at the profile of your average high school teacher and see psychological risk.
Everyone who hates firearms, has zero experience with firearms.

This falls in the same arena as taking business advice from my dad who has worked the same service job for 35 years.
 
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MTEE1985

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I believe the point is being missed. The idea is not to have teachers in a shootout with the assailaint. The idea is that the people who attack schools do so because they are a soft target and they are amongst the biggest cowards in the world.

Now in Florida they will have to consider the very real possibility that they could be shot back at, which in and of itself will likely deter would be shooters.

The media will of course spin this as ineffective because obviously nobody is going to say “well, I planned a shooting but decided not to because I don’t want to be shot at.” Its the same nonsense as “No armed civilian has ever stopped a mass shooting” of course not, because by definition it is not a mass shooting if it is stopped.

I agree with your opinion.

But can somebody explain why I have never heard about a shooting being stopped by other citizen carrying guns? Were there situations like that or do we (gunless Eurokids) simply never hear from it?
Our beloved media is too busy being concerned over who dressed up as what for Halloween in 1982...
 

GPM

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@Roli, the police are some of the poorest shooters I have ever met. Nearly every single police officer that I have come across at the range was an arrogant, cocky SOB who could hardly handle his firearm. And those were the ones who actually go to the range. It frightens me deeply to know that most never even make it to the range, and that is the attitude that is bred into them.

Put my life in the hands of a police officer? No thanks, I want to avoid that situation at all costs.

In other related news, my wife's best friend is a police officer. He literally said to me that all cops will eventually face a situation where someone points a gun at them. It is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when. I live in a city where almost no cops will ever even see firearms other than their own. So to instill that matter of distrust and hate into their members, and then make them the most vocal opponents of citizens having firearms, it is no wonder the public is so frightful and misinformed.

People also take stats completely out of context. Gun crime is violent crime. Go find some stats that show how violent crime is effected after taking guns away, not gun crime. In the UK and China there are tons of knife attacks, in the UK there is acid attacks. But that is all ok because it is not firearm crime, right?

How about the new trend of renting or stealing a large truck and plowing it into a crowd of people? How do we address that? Perhaps there is something that is causing violent crime that needs to be looked at, and not the tool being done to aid this crime.
 

GPM

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Everyone who hates firearms, has zero experience with firearms.

This falls in the same arena as taking business advice from my dad who has worked the same service job for 35 years.
100% agree!! The people who are the most vocal are the most uneducated on that particular subject. I have worked my entire adult life in the oil industry, and the amount of pure BS that people talk on that subject is just staggering. Pipelines, The "tar" sands, fracking... the less people know the more they lie about it and call it the truth. Does all of this have issues? You bet your a$$ it does. Are those issues anything even closely related to what people spout on their soapboxes? Not even close.

Hear a lie enough times and it eventually becomes the truth
 

lowtek

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When I was in Kindergarten I just did nothing. Didn't fill out any papers, didn't write my name on anything. Apparently my parents and teachers worried I had a mental deficiency or something. My Mom wanted to try a Montessori school, my Dad was skeptical but decided to try it since there was nothing to lose.

I recall bits and pieces of it, basically they had "stations" set up you can wander to and work on whatever you feel like. I found that much more fun and interesting, ended up learning how to read at a 3rd grade level and understood the basics of multiplication. Worked out ok.

We ended up moving and went back to a "normal" school for 1st grade, but by then I had advanced so far there weren't any more issues. But I wonder if I would have advanced further or faster had I stayed in a Montessori school, and if that's what "normal" should be.
Off topic, but my wife and I are planning to send our son to Montessori type schools. A good family friend was a teacher at one for years, and it seems like a pretty reasonable way to educate kids. Much better than the assembly line drug/indoctrinate system at the public schools.
 

Roli

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Everyone who hates firearms, has zero experience with firearms.
What about the mother of a toddler who shot his father by accident? What about someone paralysed or who has had a loved one taken away by guns? These people have experience, and they hate firearms.

However if you said everyone in the UK or non gun carrying country has zero experience with firearms, you still wouldn't be right, but you'd be closer to the truth.

@Roli, the police are some of the poorest shooters I have ever met. Nearly every single police officer that I have come across at the range was an arrogant, cocky SOB who could hardly handle his firearm.
Okay, not sure is supposed to prove, but it's interesting.

People also take stats completely out of context.
Of course they do, however some stats you cannot massage, like how many people get shot by their own guns, or by young children who have somehow gained access to their firearms.

in the UK there is acid attacks. But that is all ok because it is not firearm crime, right?
Nobody said it was okay, that's why they made a special law just for that, after a couple of people getting very long sentences the trend seemed to die before it had begun.

How about the new trend of renting or stealing a large truck and plowing it into a crowd of people? How do we address that?
As far as I'm aware this has happened in Europe a couple of times in the last 3-4 years, I'd hardly call that a trend.

As for addressing it, your guess is as good as mine. Though what this has to do with arming teachers I have no idea.
 
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