Bitcoin / Cryptocurrency Discussion (And Predictions)

[MitchC]

Clown? LOL these are questions the common everyday man/woman will have about crypto. Not everyone is a reddit geek or savvy crypto investor/blockchain programmer.

I can’t tell if you’re trolling and asking questions like a everyday man might or if you’re being serious.

the people of Venezuela figured Bitcoin and other solutions out pretty quickly when their currency went to shit.

@Kak is definitely right about government/central banks trying to maintain their power with guns so let’s see how this plays out.

What you are talking about with smaller societies reminds me of Gults gulch, Bitcoin could definitely be the currency of a place like that.

 

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[Deleted78083]

This is my only problem with AnCap thinking. I absolutely love the theory and discussion of it. The practice, however, might be interesting.

On one hand there is only one property owner in the USA, the Government. It is theirs and you rent it from them.

The only reason the US government owns it instead of some other overlord is because they have the most guns and willingness to use them. All borders are drawn basically when the world is at a relative violence equilibrium. Borders exist because of guns. They didn’t file these borders with a higher authority. They just simply are.

The fact of the matter is this. We are most prosperous with the least amount of government and we are most oppressed with most amount of government. Measures should always be taken to limit government as much as possible. Now, eliminate government? I would argue it would be difficult and abstract, but we would have pockets of cooperating people either way.

If the land was TRULY yours, to the deepest definition of the word “yours,” it would be your country, and you would be the dictator of it. Sounds cool right? How many guns do you have? They and your willingness to use them are now the only thing drawing your border.

Obviously there are private sector solutions to this, like widespread treaties and alliances, but it is all general theory and never been tried. Read some Murray Rothbard, it is fascinating stuff.

Super small units of government are the most realistic. Little governments that actually represent the area and also have to compete with other nearby governments for the residency of the best and brightest. They have to run the place like a business, or go out of business.

Seasteading will be the first attempt at stateless society and it might be epic. Don’t like the rules, yacht your a$$ to a place with rules you like.

The bottom line, until we put the government in a place where what is in their best interest is ALSO in our best interest, we will experience some level of oppression. It is absolutely possible, but it is currently NOT how things work.

There is no justice, only power. - Gary Halbert

 

[Frinys]

Thanks for the wonderful explanation.

You are welcome. It seems to me like you lack a very basic understanding of Bitcoin and blockchain technology. That's also why you get so many negative comments. I'd suggest you do some blockchain research to try to understand the fundamentals.

What about the fact that crypto isn't backed by the state/government/military like how fiat is? The lack of that gives the common man no assurance.

This is exactly the point of blockchain technology. Let's remove the trusted middle man. The USA has a relatively trusted government, but very many other countries do not.

The idea of money being stored in some "blockchain" thing and it's all digital, is unnerving.

It's only unnerving until you understand how it works. But that takes time. In short, blockchain makes digital data just as physical as an apple or gold nugget. It's the safest way to store digital information without relying on some middle man.

Also, it's said that there'll only ever be 21 million bitcoins. Because the supply is so small and finite, at some point it'll be insufficient (even if 1 BTC is $0.0001 USD). Not sure what's gonna happen if that's the case. Physical military wars? LOL

Let me tell you something crazy! Just like the USD has cents, BTC has Satoshis. You can buy 0.00000001 BTC if you want to, which equals one Satoshi. Most stuff actually is priced in satoshis, not Bitcoin.

I hope eventually governments will come up with their own stablecoins, regulated by the government.
Will feel more assured that way. The whole crypto feels like some wild wild west chaotic world right now....

The early internet was chaotic as well. So was the invention of electricity. So were the early railroads. Heard about the industrial revolution? It was chaotic.

At all times, innovation brings chaos at first. But that chaos is what blooms a new and better future.

 

[Xeon]

You are welcome. It seems to me like you lack a very basic understanding of Bitcoin and blockchain technology. That's also why you get so many negative comments. I'd suggest you do some blockchain research to try to understand the fundamentals.


This is exactly the point of blockchain technology. Let's remove the trusted middle man. The USA has a relatively trusted government, but very many other countries do not.


It's only unnerving until you understand how it works. But that takes time. In short, blockchain makes digital data just as physical as an apple or gold nugget. It's the safest way to store digital information without relying on some middle man.


Let me tell you something crazy! Just like the USD has cents, BTC has Satoshis. You can buy 0.00000001 BTC if you want to, which equals one Satoshi. Most stuff actually is priced in satoshis, not Bitcoin.


The early internet was chaotic as well. So was the invention of electricity. So were the early railroads. Heard about the industrial revolution? It was chaotic.

At all times, innovation brings chaos at first. But that chaos is what blooms a new and better future.

What about the energy sustainability thing? In your opinion, do you feel this will eventually cause Bitcoin to collapse and end as a fad in history books? Stuff like these:

Bitcoin's wild ride renews worries about its massive carbon footprint

Bitcoin has a carbon footprint comparable to that of New Zealand, producing 36.95 megatons of CO2 annually, according to Digiconomist.

www.cnbc.com

Bitcoin consumes more electricity than Argentina, UAE, and the Netherlands

Analysis by Cambridge University’s online tool showed that the virtual coin uses around 121.36 terawatt-hours (TWh) per year.

sg.news.yahoo.com

The power needed to run Bitcoin – DW – 02/16/2021

Running the cryptocurrency Bitcoin requires more energy than New Zealand and Belgium put together. How can something virtual keep power plants around the world so busy? DW's Timothy Rooks looks into the numbers.

www.dw.com

Will governments eventually say this is unsustainable and try to shut it down, causing crypto to crash and people to panic sell? E.g: imagine the amount of energy we need globally if the world adopts crpyto mainstream.

 

[windchaser]

What about the energy sustainability thing? In your opinion, do you feel this will eventually cause Bitcoin to collapse and end as a fad in history books? Stuff like these:

Bitcoin's wild ride renews worries about its massive carbon footprint

Bitcoin has a carbon footprint comparable to that of New Zealand, producing 36.95 megatons of CO2 annually, according to Digiconomist.

www.cnbc.com

Bitcoin consumes more electricity than Argentina, UAE, and the Netherlands

Analysis by Cambridge University’s online tool showed that the virtual coin uses around 121.36 terawatt-hours (TWh) per year.

sg.news.yahoo.com

The power needed to run Bitcoin – DW – 02/16/2021

Running the cryptocurrency Bitcoin requires more energy than New Zealand and Belgium put together. How can something virtual keep power plants around the world so busy? DW's Timothy Rooks looks into the numbers.

www.dw.com

Will governments eventually say this is unsustainable and try to shut it down, causing crypto to crash and people to panic sell? E.g: imagine the amount of energy we need globally if the world adopts crpyto mainstream.

Why do you assume the energy output is a constant? Have you considered that this could actually be an incentive to develop new sustainable energy sources and enable them to scale and be more efficient and mainstream?

Also, why do you assume that governments trying to shut down crypto will trigger a panic sell?

Btw: do you know how much energy do data centers use? Doesn't that concern you as well?

 

[mguerra]

What about the energy sustainability thing? In your opinion, do you feel this will eventually cause Bitcoin to collapse and end as a fad in history books? Stuff like these:

Bitcoin's wild ride renews worries about its massive carbon footprint

Bitcoin has a carbon footprint comparable to that of New Zealand, producing 36.95 megatons of CO2 annually, according to Digiconomist.

www.cnbc.com

Bitcoin consumes more electricity than Argentina, UAE, and the Netherlands

Analysis by Cambridge University’s online tool showed that the virtual coin uses around 121.36 terawatt-hours (TWh) per year.

sg.news.yahoo.com

The power needed to run Bitcoin – DW – 02/16/2021

Running the cryptocurrency Bitcoin requires more energy than New Zealand and Belgium put together. How can something virtual keep power plants around the world so busy? DW's Timothy Rooks looks into the numbers.

www.dw.com

Will governments eventually say this is unsustainable and try to shut it down, causing crypto to crash and people to panic sell? E.g: imagine the amount of energy we need globally if the world adopts crpyto mainstream.

Do you know how much energy is required to mantain the current financial system running, with all its inneficiency and unnecessary middlemen?

You can bet it's WAY higher than BTC...

 

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[Frinys]

What about the energy sustainability thing? In your opinion, do you feel this will eventually cause Bitcoin to collapse and end as a fad in history books? Stuff like these:

The energy sustainability thing is a misconception. People think that the energy is wasted, just to generate Bitcoin. That is not how it works.

The energy is used to secure Bitcoin. To rewrite the last 10 minutes of Bitcoin transactions, an attacker must have access to more energy than Bitcoin's total energy consumption for more than 10 minutes. Just to rewrite the last 10 minutes.

Since Bitcoin uses more energy than multiple countries combined, this is close to impossible. It is possible to hack a data center, and it's possible to infect the government's data systems. But Bitcoin is impossible to hack unless you have access to extreme amounts of energy.

When people start to realize that Bitcoin's electricity consumption is a good thing, it will be praised, not used as an excuse to shut Bitcoin down.

Edit: it is not possible to "shut" bitcoin down, just as it is not possible to "shut" down torrenting. Both are Peer-to-Peer communication, which basically means that there is no central server to shut down.

E.g: imagine the amount of energy we need globally if the world adopts crpyto mainstream.

This is a misconception. Bitcoin's energy consumption does not rise with adoption. It rises when either Bitcoin's price rises or electricity price lowers. The number of users does not directly affect Bitcoin's energy consumption.

 

[Timmy C]

What about the energy sustainability thing? In your opinion, do you feel this will eventually cause Bitcoin to collapse and end as a fad in history books? Stuff like these:

Bitcoin's wild ride renews worries about its massive carbon footprint

Bitcoin has a carbon footprint comparable to that of New Zealand, producing 36.95 megatons of CO2 annually, according to Digiconomist.

www.cnbc.com

Bitcoin consumes more electricity than Argentina, UAE, and the Netherlands

Analysis by Cambridge University’s online tool showed that the virtual coin uses around 121.36 terawatt-hours (TWh) per year.

sg.news.yahoo.com

The power needed to run Bitcoin – DW – 02/16/2021

Running the cryptocurrency Bitcoin requires more energy than New Zealand and Belgium put together. How can something virtual keep power plants around the world so busy? DW's Timothy Rooks looks into the numbers.

www.dw.com

Will governments eventually say this is unsustainable and try to shut it down, causing crypto to crash and people to panic sell? E.g: imagine the amount of energy we need globally if the world adopts crpyto mainstream.

If you wanted to destroy bitcoin, it had to be done in the first few years before bitcoin amassed enormous hashpower, decentralization, and huge network effects all over the globe.

That isn't going to happen.
When is bitcoin going to zero?
Never.

 

[Timmy C]

It will be fantastic to make a boatload of money out of this, and yeh I have done okay.

Ultimately though, if people get rich, but crypto fails to make the world better for everyone, I won't see that as a good thing.

 

[Hai]

It will be fantastic to make a boatload of money out of this, and yeh I have done okay.

Ultimately though, if people get rich, but crypto fails to make the world better for everyone, I won't see that as a good thing.

Lmao crypto is impossible to fail. People won't go back to carriages when they have cars.

 

[Timmy C]

Lmao crypto is impossible to fail. People won't go back to carriages when they have cars.

Many cryptocurrencies will fail, make no mistake.

About 90% plus at that.

 

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[nitrousflame]

Ah yes, the bitcoin energy argument. It's a catchy argument for sure, and one I must admit I was myself conflicted with for some time. However, it appears that over time, not only is it becoming less of a problem, but it may actually be turning into a bit of a solution!

CoinShares

coinshares.com

It's not that long of an article, but I know most won't read it, especially if they are biased toward the "obvious" "waste of energy" that is bitcoin, but I digress. Here are a couple snippets:

The typical anti-PoW argument​

So let’s reconstruct the environmentalist argument, which usually goes something like this:

A1 — Bitcoin mining is highly energy intensive.

A2 — The vast majority of bitcoin miners are located in China.

A3 — Bitcoin miners in China are mostly using dirty, coal-based power.

C1 — Bitcoin mining has a comparatively extreme carbon footprint.

C2 — Bitcoin is bad.

The first assumption is true, we all know that. It’s one of the fundamental reasons the Bitcoin network is so incredibly secure!

The second assumption used to be true, and is still not that far from the truth — but it’s inaccurate nonetheless. (For the sake of this post we’ll call it true, because it doesn’t really matter all that much.)

The third assumption however, is false, which ruins both conclusions.

The Takeaways​

• Contrary to what you’ve heard in the media, bitcoin mining is not an environmental disaster. In fact, it is one of the cleanest billion-dollar industries on the planet.
• The combined total bitcoin mining network draws less power than global gaming consoles running 4 hours per day.
• Bitcoin mining is mainly powered on renewable energy, at levels more than four times higher than the global average (>77.6% vs ~18.2%).
• Every year, enough hydro power is wasted in Yunnan and Sichuan alone to power the Bitcoin mining network many times over.
• Bitcoin miners are highly mobile and can therefore serve as cornerstone demand for low-cost stranded renewables.
• By increasing profitability and lowering reliance on subsidies, bitcoin mining can positively contribute to the development and scaling of renewable energy projects wherever conditions are the most favourable

The video game console comparison is one thing, but I think the better stat to compare to is the phantom load, i.e., the power consumed by devices that are plugged in, but not even powered on. The energy "wasted" by bitcoin is smaller than that wasted by devices that are not even being used for anything.

 

[Kevin88660]

Many cryptocurrencies will fail, make no mistake.

About 90% plus at that.

I still remember trying to buy featherlight coin in 2014 on ebay.

 

[Kak]

By increasing profitability and lowering reliance on subsidies, bitcoin mining can positively contribute to the development and scaling of renewable energy projects wherever conditions are the most favourable

I love this kind of thing. Considering cause and effect, not just the cause.

If everyone could think like this, the world would be a MUCH better place. Alas, they won’t.

Driving up the demand curve does more than “rob” supply, it makes more profitable and therefore more viable the development of cheap and effective alternatives.

 

[Timmy C]

You gotta give it to Peter Schiff.

Of all the shit he's copped, he hasn't changed his stance in 10 + years.

I thought he would have capitulated by now.

 

[Kak]

You gotta give it to Peter Schiff.

Of all the shit he's copped, he hasn't changed his stance in 10 + years.

I thought he would have capitulated by now.

I’m a fan. His best content is unintended consequences of government intervention in the economy. He did something recently about the new Colorado labor laws.

He is way way more than anti Bitcoin.

 

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[csalvato]

I’m a fan. His best content is unintended consequences of government intervention in the economy. He did something recently about the new Colorado labor laws.

He is way way more than anti Bitcoin.

I love Peter. He's right about everything except Bitcoin.

Though it's hard to not feel like the rest of his takes are soiled by the fact that he is missing the mark so badly on Bitcoin.

Either that, or he's right, and BTC goes to 0 and gold goes to a bagillion dollars. I won't hold my breath for that tho.

 

[Kak]

I love Peter. He's right about everything except Bitcoin.

Though it's hard to not feel like the rest of his takes are soiled by the fact that he is missing the mark so badly on Bitcoin.

Either that, or he's right, and BTC goes to 0 and gold goes to a bagillion dollars. I won't hold my breath for that tho.

Proclaiming that a very intelligent economist is unquestionably “wrong” carries even a greater level of the grandiose confidence you are off-put by. Especially considering he has earned the ability to be grandiose, unlike the average BTC bull.

Peter is only really guilty of being too careful to the point where he misses out on opportunity, but there are plenty of people that aren’t messing with Bitcoin. Is Warren Buffet also “soiled” in your book? Is Ray Dalio? Are countless other billionaires?

If not, the only other explanation is that he is a gold bull... So many Bitcoin people have a visceral hatred for gold... I don’t know why. It isn’t the competition. It isn’t anything like gold, despite Grayscale insisting on the comparison. BTC has much more in common with high flying growth stocks than old fashioned gold which is more like a mature dividend aristocrat.

Honestly, devoid of this grandiosity in the Bitcoin community, that is literally begging to be humbled, I’d be heavily in on this. Like I’ve said in the past, there is little objectivity. I’m playing the other players, not my cards. There’s no hand. Just other investors sitting at the table. I don’t have much to go on, but the mania and ultra confidence is rarely a positive for long. F’ckin laser eyes, trolling a prominent Austrian economist, and eggplant emojis aren’t going to do it for me.

Look, I know we have mutual respect @csalvato ... please understand, I am just calling it like I see it. I know you guys appreciate when I do that. This is more of a statement on the crypto community as a whole and not targeted at you specifically.

 

[csalvato]

Proclaiming that a very intelligent economist is unquestionably “wrong” carries even a greater level of the grandiose confidence you are off-put by. Especially considering he has earned the ability to be grandiose, unlike the average BTC bull.

He has been calling for the collapse of bitcoin for at least 10 years, and it continues to rocket up at a meteoric pace. Every time it rockets up, he doubles down on how terrible it is and that it will go to 0.

To me, that's pretty unequivocally and objectively "wrong" and incorrect on his calls on Bitcoin at every step of the way .

This isn't about speaking loudly and being "grandiose" or having a strong opinion.

He's been objectively wrong.

Peter is only really guilty of being too careful, but there are plenty of people that aren’t messing with Bitcoin. Is Warren Buffet also “soiled” in your book? Is Ray Dalio? Are countless other billionaires?

Buffet is on record as saying the reason he invests in anything is because he understands it deeply. And he's not invested in Bitcoin.

Logically, it's safe to say he doesn't understand it and all his on-the-record statements on BTC corroborate.

Ray Dalio has also come out on the record saying that he is not against Bitcoin, and that Bridgewater is investigating it for his fund, and is speaking at Consensus 2021 this year.

Like Buffet, Dalio believes strongly that you need to know a market inside and out to participate. He has concerns (some valid, some not), and admits he doesn't know nearly enough about it to be competent participating in the market.

It's not at all surprising that two geriatrics don't fully understand BTC and I understand if they don't want to invest the time to fully understand the market to participate.

If your gauge for whether or not BTC is a good investment is because of what Buffet or Dalio are doing, you may want to consider a different compass.

For example, Paul Tudor Jones is still actively managing his fund and he has published a strong bull case for BTC, and made big moves to back that up.

As for Peter, he is informed on BTC. Very informed. And consistently made the wrong call from a social, economic and investing perspective.

If not, the only other explanation is that he is a gold bull... So many Bitcoin people have a visceral hatred for gold

IDK, this isn't my experience.

Most people I know who are in crypto were also big proponents of gold, as well. Most started by being fans of Schiff (and thus gold), including people like Erik Voorhees (founder of Shapeshift, who debated Schiff on Bitcoin in 2018)

That is, until it did absolutely nothing during the most incredible and unprecedented injection of cash into the money supply in history.

When an asset doesn't do it's job, it's not a surprise that investors sour on it. It didn't deliver on its promise. If BTC didn't go up during this huge inflation, you would see people souring on BTC, too, like I nearly did during the first 2 months of COVID where it was a total dog.

I'd hardly call that a visceral hatred. Sounds more like a rational understanding.

Look, I know we have mutual respect @cslavato... please understand, I am just calling it like I see it. I know you guys like when I do that. This is more of a statement on the crypto community as a whole and not really targeted at you specifically.

No offense taken. I enjoy the conversation.

 

[Kak]

He has been calling for the collapse of bitcoin for at least 10 years, and it continues to rocket up at a meteoric pace. Every time it rockets up, he doubles down on how terrible it is and that it will go to 0.

To me, that's pretty unequivocally and objective "wrong" and incorrect on his calls on Bitcoin at every step of the way .

This isn't about speaking loudly and being "grandiose" or having a strong opinion.

He's been objectively wrong.

Both sides carry a level of hypocrisy to the argument. The reality is that this very moment might be the cheapest a Bitcoin will ever be again, it also might be the last time it is ever this high. This is objective reality. Saying he is wrong because we are in the middle of a mania as if it is proof of the world caving to Bitcoin forever is not objective reality.

I owned Bitcoin around $4000 for a few years with nothing of notoriety happening. Did that make it objectively trash? No, that proved nothing either.

Buffet is on record as saying the reason he invests in anything is because he understands it deeply. And he's not invested in Bitcoin.

Logically, it's safe to say he doesn't understand it and all his on-the-record statements on BTC corroborate.

Ray Dalio has also come out on the record saying that he is not against Bitcoin, and that Bridgewater is investigating it for his fund, and is speaking at Consensus 2021 this year.

Like Buffet, Dalio believes strongly that you need to know a market inside and out to participate. He has concerns (some valid, some not), and admits he doesn't know nearly enough about it to be competent participating in the market.

It's not at all surprising that two geriatric don't fully understand BTC and I understand if they don't want to invest the time to fully understand the market to participate.

If your gauge for whether or not BTC is a good investment is because of what Buffet or Dalio are doing, you may want to consider a different compass.

My gauge is me. Not other people. Sometimes I’m very right. Sometimes I’m wrong... but I haven’t turned it over to one of them for a reason.

For example, Paul Tudor Jones is still actively managing his fund and he has published a strong bull case for BTC, and made big moves to back that up.

See this just looks like confirmation bias to me.

IDK, this isn't my experience.

Most people I know who are in crypto were also big proponents of gold, as well. Most started by being fans of Schiff (and thus gold), including people like Erik Voorhees (founder of Shapeshift, who debated Schiff on Bitcoin in 2018)

That is, until it did absolutely nothing during the most incredible and unprecedented injection of cash into the money supply in history.

When an asset doesn't do it's job, it's not a surprise that investors sour on it. It didn't deliver on its promise. If BTC didn't go up during this huge inflation, you would see people souring on BTC, too, like I nearly did during the first 2 months of COVID where it was a total dog.

I'd hardly call that a visceral hatred. Sounds more like a rational understanding.

The dollar, despite being joined by a shit load new dollars, has NOT experienced much movement in the DXY. In fact, it has rallied with Bitcoin over the last 3 months. Why? Well I believe that the foreign banks doing the same shit keeps the ratio between currencies similar...

That said, the traders are ruling the roost. When NOMINAL bond yields are rising because of a bond sell off, not because of the fed tightening, they still sell gold. The real reason for the sell off? The real rate... Which is negative. Treasuries have stomped gold. They will ultimately decouple when investors inevitably view them as worthless at any rate. But for now, gold has been clobbered based on old sentiment of this coupling.

Basically, despite the cash injection and inflation fears, the rejection of bonds by the investor market, and the rise in yields, investors have not decoupled them.

Gold has underperformed my expectations even given the circumstances we have had over the last 6 months. Yes. But the dollar hasn’t fallen to 85-80-75-70 yet. Give it time, it very well might. The market demand for yield will be sky high, but the fed will be buying them all anyway. The rate will finally be nonsense to the investors, even if it already is today.

For now we have 1-2% measured relative movement in the dollar, down then up. So Bitcoin goes up 360%? That’s not correlation. That’s not an inflation hedge. It is something else entirely. If it was “the new gold,” or some kind of inflation hedge, the yeilds would have killed it too.

 

[Timmy C]

Proclaiming that a very intelligent economist is unquestionably “wrong” carries even a greater level of the grandiose confidence you are off-put by. Especially considering he has earned the ability to be grandiose, unlike the average BTC bull.

Peter is only really guilty of being too careful to the point where he misses out on opportunity, but there are plenty of people that aren’t messing with Bitcoin. Is Warren Buffet also “soiled” in your book? Is Ray Dalio? Are countless other billionaires?

If not, the only other explanation is that he is a gold bull... So many Bitcoin people have a visceral hatred for gold... I don’t know why. It isn’t the competition. It isn’t anything like gold, despite Grayscale insisting on the comparison. BTC has much more in common with high flying growth stocks than old fashioned gold which is more like a mature dividend aristocrat.

Honestly, devoid of this grandiosity in the Bitcoin community, that is literally begging to be humbled, I’d be heavily in on this. Like I’ve said in the past, there is little objectivity. I’m playing the other players, not my cards. There’s no hand. Just other investors sitting at the table. I don’t have much to go on, but the mania and ultra confidence is rarely a positive for long. F’ckin laser eyes, trolling a prominent Austrian economist, and eggplant emojis aren’t going to do it for me.

Look, I know we have mutual respect @csalvato ... please understand, I am just calling it like I see it. I know you guys appreciate when I do that. This is more of a statement on the crypto community as a whole and not targeted at you specifically.

It's the red isn't it?

I knew I should have gone with blue eyes right from the start.

 

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[GPM]

I like when people cry about crypto energy use with today's solutions. As in they look to future issues with today's solutions. As everything progresses so do the solutions.

But but but it's unsustainable! Energy usage is only going to increase! Know what else is going to increase? Our ability to solve energy issues.

The sky is always falling, the world is always ending. Don't use that as an excuse to put your head in the sand.

 

[Timmy C]

When I look to the future, I don't see gold as a store of value, and that's the truth.

The bull market will end, but that still doesn't change my opinion.

I guess that's why there's a market, as not everyone will agree.

Why not hold both?
I have held and bought bitcoin for years and decided to buy gold at the time covid hit.

For one reason only:
I see bitcoin as the future, but gold in the current minds of the hive minds persuaded me to get that also for protection.

Doesn't matter. I don't hate gold. It just isn't a long term store of value or inflation hedge in my eyes. Not since Bitcoin.

The intersection of technology, economics, geopolitics, and history all points towards bitcoin for me.

How many companies accept bitcoin as a form of payment?

How many companies accept gold?

 

[MitchC]

I bought an office desk online the other day in Australia and when I got to the payment page they accepted Bitcoin, that was a pleasant surprise but the potential is there for it to be the norm sooner that people might expect.

shopify changed the game when it came to building mobile friendly ecom stores, all it would take is 1 company to do that with Bitcoin.

I believe the way they accepted it was through coinspot which probably has a very simple to install shopify connection.

 

[windchaser]

Proclaiming that a very intelligent economist is unquestionably “wrong” carries even a greater level of the grandiose confidence you are off-put by. Especially considering he has earned the ability to be grandiose, unlike the average BTC bull.

Peter is only really guilty of being too careful to the point where he misses out on opportunity, but there are plenty of people that aren’t messing with Bitcoin. Is Warren Buffet also “soiled” in your book? Is Ray Dalio? Are countless other billionaires?

If not, the only other explanation is that he is a gold bull... So many Bitcoin people have a visceral hatred for gold... I don’t know why. It isn’t the competition. It isn’t anything like gold, despite Grayscale insisting on the comparison. BTC has much more in common with high flying growth stocks than old fashioned gold which is more like a mature dividend aristocrat.

Honestly, devoid of this grandiosity in the Bitcoin community, that is literally begging to be humbled, I’d be heavily in on this. Like I’ve said in the past, there is little objectivity. I’m playing the other players, not my cards. There’s no hand. Just other investors sitting at the table. I don’t have much to go on, but the mania and ultra confidence is rarely a positive for long. F’ckin laser eyes, trolling a prominent Austrian economist, and eggplant emojis aren’t going to do it for me.

Look, I know we have mutual respect @csalvato ... please understand, I am just calling it like I see it. I know you guys appreciate when I do that. This is more of a statement on the crypto community as a whole and not targeted at you specifically.

I really like Peter and agree with most of his ideas and arguments, however I believe that he is biased when it comes to bitcoin (regardless of him being eventually right or wrong about bitcoin).

I have seen him in debates about Bitcoin, and as he was giving solid and rational arguments for gold, when the other person debating saying anything positive about bitcoin he, first didn't let him finish (first sign of prejudice against the topic) and automaticaly argue against it and generally with arguments that could also apply to what he argued previously about gold. That alone to me is a huge red flag that someone is being closedminded about a topic. Is not only about the arguments he uses (some of them are solid, others not so much) but about how he uses them.

Probably there is more to it, but at least the impression I get is that he is such a gold maximalist that he feels the need to defend "his team" the same way a football fan would do. In my opinion, someone is not less of a radical as the average bitcoin maximalist just for being a reputed economist.

Even brilliant and respected professionals can be wrong from time to time. And the more prestigious you are, the more likely that you get overconfident. It is human nature after all.

That is a thing I love about Dalio, his obsession with looking at things from different perspectives. And the way he articulates his view on bitcoin is no exception.

I agree with you about the trolling, but to me it looks like Peter actually has fun with it, if not he would't have put the eggplant emoji in his name or post certain things to trigger the trolls.

 

[Kevin88660]

When I look to the future, I don't see gold as a store of value, and that's the truth.

The bull market will end, but that still doesn't change my opinion.

I guess that's why there's a market, as not everyone will agree.

Why not hold both?
I have held and bought bitcoin for years and decided to buy gold at the time covid hit.

For one reason only:
I see bitcoin as the future, but gold in the current minds of the hive minds persuaded me to get that also for protection.

Doesn't matter. I don't hate gold. It just isn't a long term store of value or inflation hedge in my eyes. Not since Bitcoin.

The intersection of technology, economics, geopolitics, and history all points towards bitcoin for me.

How many companies accept bitcoin as a form of payment?

How many companies accept gold?

The advantage of gold over bitcoin is that it does not need a community.

Bitcoin is just a string of open source code that an engineer can recreate it in a few hours. So many competitors in the altcoin space have failed because they cannot replicate the strength of the bitcoin community.

If you have enough people believing in it and refuse to sell it and market it to the world then the sky is limit. If everyone is skeptical and playing short term pump and dump after a 20 percent price rise then the project will be dead.

Thats why you see the bitcoin whales spreading the hate against other projects. There is fundamentally no technical superiority about bitcoin over other crypto. It is the people and the consensus around it making it valuable.

It is the same network effect like a social media. There is nothing stopping twitter users and engineers to quit the platform to replicate it elsewhere. In theory it is easy but in practice not so.

if you are a believer of gold, you don’t have to worry about people recreating gold properties within a few hours. If we have found it we would have know it, given the last few thousand years of monetary history. The scarcity, malleability and durability of it has won the test of time. You do not have to be an insecure gold maximalist calling silver and platinum shit metals on twitter everyday.

 

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[Timmy C]

The advantage of gold over bitcoin is that it does not need a community.

Bitcoin is just a string of open source code that an engineer can recreate it in a few hours. So many competitors in the altcoin space have failed because they cannot replicate the strength of the bitcoin community.

If you have enough people believing in it and refuse to sell it and market it to the world then the sky is limit. If everyone is skeptical and playing short term pump and dump after a 20 percent price rise then the project will be dead.

Thats why you see the bitcoin whales spreading the hate against other projects. There is fundamentally no technical superiority about bitcoin. It is the people and the consensus around it making it valuable.

It is the same network effect like a social media. There is nothing stopping twitter users and engineers to quit the platform to replicate it elsewhere. In theory it is easy but in practice not so.

if you are a believer of gold, you don’t have to worry about people recreating gold properties within a few hours. If we have found it we would have know it, given the last few thousand years of monetary history. The scarcity, malleability and durability of it has won the test of time. You do not have to be an insecure gold maximalist calling silver and platinum shit metals on twitter everyday.

* I disagree.

But anyway, it doesn't matter as you just don't invest in Bitcoin if you believe that.

We will see who was right in the end.

Wish you luck.

 

[Timmy C]

You csn carry a million dollars in your head via a seed phrase and walk across any border without worry of being stolen from or taken advantage of.

I'd like to see gold do that.

 

[Timmy C]

I can see the argument for holding harder assets such as gold and silver in times like these.

I think gold and bitcoin people agree on most things.

The only disagreement is what the superior asset is now.

 

[Kevin88660]

* I disagree.

But anyway, it doesn't matter as you just don't invest in Bitcoin if you believe that.

We will see who was right in the end.

Wish you luck.

I trade what others believe in. I do believe in buying the dips in this bull cycle for btc and quality alt.

I just cite one advantage gold has over crypto. It is not community dependent.

The technology is open source. The value comes from the community.

Saying that the value is community driven is not necessarily trivializing it.