Positioning: The difference between a $20 and $2000 product.

[IceCreamKid]

I just got the commit for a deal that will yield me $140k/mo profit. I don't even have a company name or logo because this biz idea came to me 2 weeks ago. I made a bare-bones version of the product with Chat-GPT and pitched a demo to them a few days later. It still has bugs that need to be refined, but that's okay for now. It will ultimately recover a ton of money for them.

I invite all of you to either learn to code or learn sales. I will die on this hill.

Why is the water in the grocery store $2/gallon while this bottle of water is $5k? Positioning.

I'm asking you to invest in yourself and learn:

• copywriting(copy legendary sales letters by hand)
• sales(specifically tech sales)
• how to create systems(Zapier is your friend)
• how to identify low risk, high leverage opportunities(read Jay Abraham's books)
• how to create win-win situations(again, read Jay Abraham's books)
• how to hire/fire(Philippines employees work 10x harder than American ones and complain 10x less)

Then when you learn all of the things listed above and make your money, disappear. Tell your relatives you lost everything in some bad investments. Your ego will want to flex with a Lambo. Don't do it. Disappear.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Black_Dragon43]

I just got the commit for a deal that will yield me $140k/mo profit. I don't even have a company name or logo because this biz idea came to me 2 weeks ago. I made a bare-bones version of the product with Chat-GPT and pitched a demo to them a few days later. It still has bugs that need to be refined, but that's okay for now. It will ultimately recover a ton of money for them.

That’s fantastic, love to see you crushing it!

I invite all of you to either learn to code or learn sales. I will die on this hill.

Personally, I’ve come to believe that these skills are ultimately not as important as some people make them sound on this forum for entrepreneurs. I will explain why below.

Why is the water in the grocery store $2/gallon while this bottle of water is $5k? Positioning

Is it? I’m not sure about that water bottle since I can’t read the brand and research it, but this water bottle sells for $60K: The World's Most Expensive Bottle of Water Costs $60,000

Al Ries and Jack Trout define positioning as what you do to the mind of the customer, NOT to the product. As such, it is about the story you tell about the product.

It’s me taking a supermarket tea, researching its origin, and then telling some story about how monks in Japan or wherever create this tea and then drink it for potency and physical strength or whatever. And thus, convincing people to pay more than what they’d pay at the supermarket and pocketing the difference.

It’s basically taking the same product, and changing the story / emphasis.

This is NOT what makes the bottle above sell for $60K. If it was, then I could take any other bottle of water and sell it for $60K, and I can’t. What allows it to be sold for $60K isn’t the story (although that certainly contributes to it), but rather the product itself:

The water is sourced from France and Fiji (two points literally on opposite sides of the globe, which likely adds to the cost) and is sold in a bottle designed by Fernando Altamirano of Tequila Ley (the same guy who designed the Cognac Dudognon Heritage Henri IV bottle, which is the most expensive bottle of cognac in the world).

The way it is manufactured. This goes under product, not positioning. Can you manufacture a similar product? If you can’t, then your positioning skills are useless, you won’t even be able to position it in this way. Remember, positioning is about what you do to the mind of the customer, not to the product.

• copywriting(copy legendary sales letters by hand)
• sales(specifically tech sales)
• how to create systems(Zapier is your friend)
• how to identify low risk, high leverage opportunities(read Jay Abraham's books)
• how to create win-win situations(again, read Jay Abraham's books)

Being a giant nerd and obsessed about what creates business success, I’ve read all those books, copied sales letters by hand and did everything you’re talking about. Can’t say it’s not helpful, but it’s not the key to success that you make it out to be either.

Why?

Copywriting: this is how I got my start. I worked for some of the best players in the direct response industry. I’ve read 100+ copywriting related books. Copied 100s of sales letters. Did that give me a huge advantage? Nah. Most copywriters aren’t rich, and even the ones who are or were rich like Gary Halbert were “small” rich, not big rich. Copywriting teaches you what to say… you can say all the right things and someone still won’t buy. Because they don’t trust you, because you don’t have enough social proof, because they don’t like your face, because they don’t like the product and so on. Ultimately what a copywriter can do is limited by the brand they’re working for. Usually copywriting works really well for dumb people — Agora sells billions in less than honest “products”… newsletters and such. This works on the mind of a gullible person. But in real B2B business, it doesn’t. Or it works despite the copy, not because of it. Jay Abraham sells because of his reputation, not his copy. If it was his copy, you should be able to steal it and reproduce his results. But you can’t. I’ve tested it. Therefore it’s not the copy. The copy Tony Robbins uses is cheesy and crap. If you used the same copy, 0 results. Therefore it’s not his copy that sells, but his brand. And I can go on.

Sales: I’ve read more sales books than copywriting ones. How to Win Friends, Spin Selling, Can’t Teach a Kid to Ride a Bike at a Seminar, Challenger Sales, Gap Selling, Selling to VITO, Natural Selling (not the name of the book, but the name of the method), Pitch Anything, Mastering Influence (course, Tony Robbins), Way of the Wolf + Straight Line Selling (course), To Sell is Human, Sell or be Sold, Stop Acting like a Seller Start Thinking Like a Buyer, Smart Calling, Little Red Book of Selling, The Secrets of Closing the Sale, Influence, Ultimate Sales Machine, How I Raised Myself from Failure to Success, Insight Selling and many many more, these are just some of the more famous ones that come to mind.

All those books are mostly useless. Businessmen are sucky salesmen. And most salesmen make sucky entrepreneurs. Sales people are sort of cannon fodder. They’re given product info, given use-case info, given case studies, given a territory and sometimes leads, and told go out there and sell this crap. If the crap sells, it’s usually more to do with the crap itself and the company, than the salesperson and their sales skills. Why do you think “good” salespeople fight to work for top companies that usually sell very high priced enterprise level software? Because the margins are the highest there, and it’s easy to sell something like that. Why don’t they become entrepreneurs, the vast majority of them? How you handle objections has to do mostly with how well-thought out the product is. How you tell the story of what your product does has mostly to do with what you product CAN do in the first place. How you ask questions to uncover needs is limited by whether the other party will speak to you or not, and that’s mostly a matter of the company you’re affiliated with and its reputation. And I can go on.

Bill Gates can’t sell for his life. Neither can Elon Musk. Despite them being called “master” salesmen by the likes of Peter Thiel and other non-salesmen. Suffice to say that the way these guys sell, has nothing to do with what you can learn within sales books. If you want, it has to do with building a brand, building a reputation, and so on. These are all things that make sales easier, and that if you put behind a good salesperson, he can do very well with, but without them, he’s hopeless!

I’d say the skills that truly matter to entrepreneurs are much more about:

• Creative problem solving within economic constraints (even most of sales is about this for an entrepreneur. I’m thinking, for example, how can I provide more value for a minimum cost upfront to acquire customers more easily? Or what other services should I be selling to maximise lifetime value? These are all questions that a salesperson is NOT asking, because they are above his paygrade — salespeople are taught to operate WITHIN those constraints).

• Organisation-building (putting together SOPs, attracting talent & investment etc)

• Leadership (motivating people)

• Strategic Foresight — ability to zero-in on the right ends to be achieved and then assembling together the means of achieving them.

Entrepreneurs are far from being just glorified salesmen. Most entrepreneurs who glorify sales forget that what is actually responsible for those sales has little to do with sales skills.

And the best entrepreneurs I know can’t sell to save their life. They hire people to sell, and put together the environment that makes sales easy for them.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I moved this topic on brand positioning and story into its own thread as it is that important.

 

[Supa]

Just after reading the post I noticed that it is an @IceCreamKid post. Man have I missed reading your posts

Thanks for this!

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Desolation Row]

Congratulations on your effort so far.
So to understand this correctly: You are building a "luxury/high-end" software/service? If you take into consideration that the whole luxury market exists in the form of physical products (or doesn't it maybe?), that's a very novel idea for me.

In addition to the Jay Abrahams book, do you have any book tips regarding the psychology and mechanism of luxury items?

 

[Jrjohnny]

I’m not anywhere close to your success, but I wanted to share something:

Sure, you can learn copywriting, ability to sell, ability to market whatever.

But all of these skills are useless if you don’t have one skill. This skill is the most important.

It’s called the skill of action.

If you cannot act, you cannot do. You can’t use skills you’ve learnt if your not doing anything.

Before learning any of these skills, you should learn the ability to act.

With action, comes responsibility, with responsibility, you use skills, with skills, you succeed.

It’s the base block. If your base is weak, the whole thing will come toppling down.

If you can’t act, the hundreds of hours and dollars spent on books and learning skills, will go down the drain.

Therefore, before building any skills, build the core skill which everything stems from: The Skill Of Action

 

[Black_Dragon43]

I’m not anywhere close to your success, but I wanted to share something:

Sure, you can learn copywriting, ability to sell, ability to market whatever.

But all of these skills are useless if you don’t have one skill. This skill is the most important.

It’s called the skill of action.

If you cannot act, you cannot do. You can’t use skills you’ve learnt if your not doing anything.

Before learning any of these skills, you should learn the ability to act.

With action, comes responsibility, with responsibility, you use skills, with skills, you succeed.

It’s the base block. If your base is weak, the whole thing will come toppling down.

If you can’t act, the hundreds of hours and dollars spent on books and learning skills, will go down the drain.

Therefore, before building any skills, build the core skill which everything stems from: The Skill Of Action

Umm, what?

Action is not a skill.

Action is choosing to use a skill or not.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Jrjohnny]

Umm, what?

Action is not a skill.

Action is choosing to use a skill or not.

I’ve been caught.

 

[mikecarlooch]

That’s fantastic, love to see you crushing it!


Personally, I’ve come to believe that these skills are ultimately not as important as some people make them sound on this forum for entrepreneurs. I will explain why below.



Is it? I’m not sure about that water bottle since I can’t read the brand and research it, but this water bottle sells for $60K: The World's Most Expensive Bottle of Water Costs $60,000

Al Ries and Jack Trout define positioning as what you do to the mind of the customer, NOT to the product. As such, it is about the story you tell about the product.

It’s me taking a supermarket tea, researching its origin, and then telling some story about how monks in Japan or wherever create this tea and then drink it for potency and physical strength or whatever. And thus, convincing people to pay more than what they’d pay at the supermarket and pocketing the difference.

It’s basically taking the same product, and changing the story / emphasis.

This is NOT what makes the bottle above sell for $60K. If it was, then I could take any other bottle of water and sell it for $60K, and I can’t. What allows it to be sold for $60K isn’t the story (although that certainly contributes to it), but rather the product itself:



The way it is manufactured. This goes under product, not positioning. Can you manufacture a similar product? If you can’t, then your positioning skills are useless, you won’t even be able to position it in this way. Remember, positioning is about what you do to the mind of the customer, not to the product.



Being a giant nerd and obsessed about what creates business success, I’ve read all those books, copied sales letters by hand and did everything you’re talking about. Can’t say it’s not helpful, but it’s not the key to success that you make it out to be either.

Why?

Copywriting: this is how I got my start. I worked for some of the best players in the direct response industry. I’ve read 100+ copywriting related books. Copied 100s of sales letters. Did that give me a huge advantage? Nah. Most copywriters aren’t rich, and even the ones who are or were rich like Gary Halbert were “small” rich, not big rich. Copywriting teaches you what to say… you can say all the right things and someone still won’t buy. Because they don’t trust you, because you don’t have enough social proof, because they don’t like your face, because they don’t like the product and so on. Ultimately what a copywriter can do is limited by the brand they’re working for. Usually copywriting works really well for dumb people — Agora sells billions in less than honest “products”… newsletters and such. This works on the mind of a gullible person. But in real B2B business, it doesn’t. Or it works despite the copy, not because of it. Jay Abraham sells because of his reputation, not his copy. If it was his copy, you should be able to steal it and reproduce his results. But you can’t. I’ve tested it. Therefore it’s not the copy. The copy Tony Robbins uses is cheesy and crap. If you used the same copy, 0 results. Therefore it’s not his copy that sells, but his brand. And I can go on.

Sales: I’ve read more sales books than copywriting ones. How to Win Friends, Spin Selling, Can’t Teach a Kid to Ride a Bike at a Seminar, Challenger Sales, Gap Selling, Selling to VITO, Natural Selling (not the name of the book, but the name of the method), Pitch Anything, Mastering Influence (course, Tony Robbins), Way of the Wolf + Straight Line Selling (course), To Sell is Human, Sell or be Sold, Stop Acting like a Seller Start Thinking Like a Buyer, Smart Calling, Little Red Book of Selling, The Secrets of Closing the Sale, Influence, Ultimate Sales Machine, How I Raised Myself from Failure to Success, Insight Selling and many many more, these are just some of the more famous ones that come to mind.

All those books are mostly useless. Businessmen are sucky salesmen. And most salesmen make sucky entrepreneurs. Sales people are sort of cannon fodder. They’re given product info, given use-case info, given case studies, given a territory and sometimes leads, and told go out there and sell this crap. If the crap sells, it’s usually more to do with the crap itself and the company, than the salesperson and their sales skills. Why do you think “good” salespeople fight to work for top companies that usually sell very high priced enterprise level software? Because the margins are the highest there, and it’s easy to sell something like that. Why don’t they become entrepreneurs, the vast majority of them? How you handle objections has to do mostly with how well-thought out the product is. How you tell the story of what your product does has mostly to do with what you product CAN do in the first place. How you ask questions to uncover needs is limited by whether the other party will speak to you or not, and that’s mostly a matter of the company you’re affiliated with and its reputation. And I can go on.

Bill Gates can’t sell for his life. Neither can Elon Musk. Despite them being called “master” salesmen by the likes of Peter Thiel and other non-salesmen. Suffice to say that the way these guys sell, has nothing to do with what you can learn within sales books. If you want, it has to do with building a brand, building a reputation, and so on. These are all things that make sales easier, and that if you put behind a good salesperson, he can do very well with, but without them, he’s hopeless!

I’d say the skills that truly matter to entrepreneurs are much more about:

• Creative problem solving within economic constraints (even most of sales is about this for an entrepreneur. I’m thinking, for example, how can I provide more value for a minimum cost upfront to acquire customers more easily? Or what other services should I be selling to maximise lifetime value? These are all questions that a salesperson is NOT asking, because they are above his paygrade — salespeople are taught to operate WITHIN those constraints).

• Organisation-building (putting together SOPs, attracting talent & investment etc)

• Leadership (motivating people)

• Strategic Foresight — ability to zero-in on the right ends to be achieved and then assembling together the means of achieving them.

Entrepreneurs are far from being just glorified salesmen. Most entrepreneurs who glorify sales forget that what is actually responsible for those sales has little to do with sales skills.

And the best entrepreneurs I know can’t sell to save their life. They hire people to sell, and put together the environment that makes sales easy for them.

Thanks what a great post.

I just have a little pushback out of curiosity here.

As the CEO if you don't know a thing about leads or selling, how could you set the right targets or know what targets are right?

 

[biophase]

That’s fantastic, love to see you crushing it!


Personally, I’ve come to believe that these skills are ultimately not as important as some people make them sound on this forum for entrepreneurs. I will explain why below.



Is it? I’m not sure about that water bottle since I can’t read the brand and research it, but this water bottle sells for $60K: The World's Most Expensive Bottle of Water Costs $60,000

Al Ries and Jack Trout define positioning as what you do to the mind of the customer, NOT to the product. As such, it is about the story you tell about the product.

It’s me taking a supermarket tea, researching its origin, and then telling some story about how monks in Japan or wherever create this tea and then drink it for potency and physical strength or whatever. And thus, convincing people to pay more than what they’d pay at the supermarket and pocketing the difference.

It’s basically taking the same product, and changing the story / emphasis.

This is NOT what makes the bottle above sell for $60K. If it was, then I could take any other bottle of water and sell it for $60K, and I can’t. What allows it to be sold for $60K isn’t the story (although that certainly contributes to it), but rather the product itself:



The way it is manufactured. This goes under product, not positioning. Can you manufacture a similar product? If you can’t, then your positioning skills are useless, you won’t even be able to position it in this way. Remember, positioning is about what you do to the mind of the customer, not to the product.



Being a giant nerd and obsessed about what creates business success, I’ve read all those books, copied sales letters by hand and did everything you’re talking about. Can’t say it’s not helpful, but it’s not the key to success that you make it out to be either.

Why?

Copywriting: this is how I got my start. I worked for some of the best players in the direct response industry. I’ve read 100+ copywriting related books. Copied 100s of sales letters. Did that give me a huge advantage? Nah. Most copywriters aren’t rich, and even the ones who are or were rich like Gary Halbert were “small” rich, not big rich. Copywriting teaches you what to say… you can say all the right things and someone still won’t buy. Because they don’t trust you, because you don’t have enough social proof, because they don’t like your face, because they don’t like the product and so on. Ultimately what a copywriter can do is limited by the brand they’re working for. Usually copywriting works really well for dumb people — Agora sells billions in less than honest “products”… newsletters and such. This works on the mind of a gullible person. But in real B2B business, it doesn’t. Or it works despite the copy, not because of it. Jay Abraham sells because of his reputation, not his copy. If it was his copy, you should be able to steal it and reproduce his results. But you can’t. I’ve tested it. Therefore it’s not the copy. The copy Tony Robbins uses is cheesy and crap. If you used the same copy, 0 results. Therefore it’s not his copy that sells, but his brand. And I can go on.

Sales: I’ve read more sales books than copywriting ones. How to Win Friends, Spin Selling, Can’t Teach a Kid to Ride a Bike at a Seminar, Challenger Sales, Gap Selling, Selling to VITO, Natural Selling (not the name of the book, but the name of the method), Pitch Anything, Mastering Influence (course, Tony Robbins), Way of the Wolf + Straight Line Selling (course), To Sell is Human, Sell or be Sold, Stop Acting like a Seller Start Thinking Like a Buyer, Smart Calling, Little Red Book of Selling, The Secrets of Closing the Sale, Influence, Ultimate Sales Machine, How I Raised Myself from Failure to Success, Insight Selling and many many more, these are just some of the more famous ones that come to mind.

All those books are mostly useless. Businessmen are sucky salesmen. And most salesmen make sucky entrepreneurs. Sales people are sort of cannon fodder. They’re given product info, given use-case info, given case studies, given a territory and sometimes leads, and told go out there and sell this crap. If the crap sells, it’s usually more to do with the crap itself and the company, than the salesperson and their sales skills. Why do you think “good” salespeople fight to work for top companies that usually sell very high priced enterprise level software? Because the margins are the highest there, and it’s easy to sell something like that. Why don’t they become entrepreneurs, the vast majority of them? How you handle objections has to do mostly with how well-thought out the product is. How you tell the story of what your product does has mostly to do with what you product CAN do in the first place. How you ask questions to uncover needs is limited by whether the other party will speak to you or not, and that’s mostly a matter of the company you’re affiliated with and its reputation. And I can go on.

Bill Gates can’t sell for his life. Neither can Elon Musk. Despite them being called “master” salesmen by the likes of Peter Thiel and other non-salesmen. Suffice to say that the way these guys sell, has nothing to do with what you can learn within sales books. If you want, it has to do with building a brand, building a reputation, and so on. These are all things that make sales easier, and that if you put behind a good salesperson, he can do very well with, but without them, he’s hopeless!

I’d say the skills that truly matter to entrepreneurs are much more about:

• Creative problem solving within economic constraints (even most of sales is about this for an entrepreneur. I’m thinking, for example, how can I provide more value for a minimum cost upfront to acquire customers more easily? Or what other services should I be selling to maximise lifetime value? These are all questions that a salesperson is NOT asking, because they are above his paygrade — salespeople are taught to operate WITHIN those constraints).

• Organisation-building (putting together SOPs, attracting talent & investment etc)

• Leadership (motivating people)

• Strategic Foresight — ability to zero-in on the right ends to be achieved and then assembling together the means of achieving them.

Entrepreneurs are far from being just glorified salesmen. Most entrepreneurs who glorify sales forget that what is actually responsible for those sales has little to do with sales skills.

And the best entrepreneurs I know can’t sell to save their life. They hire people to sell, and put together the environment that makes sales easy for them.

So basically, the people are paying $60K because of the bottle, not because of the water. Could it also be that they believe the bottle will become a collectors item and then an investment in the future?

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Black_Dragon43]

As the CEO if you don't know a thing about leads or selling, how could you set the right targets or know what targets are right?

Well, as the CEO you will usually know a thing about leads and sales, the same way you’ll know a thing about say contract law. But it doesn’t necessarily make you a good salesperson or a good lawyer.

Not all CEOs are good salespeople in the traditional sense. It’s true that sales as a profession generally attracts people with more entrepreneurial mindsets, who are more likely to work for themselves.

As the CEO you will usually work on things that make sales easier. That depends ofc on the level of the company. If you’re the CEO of GE, you’re probably working on a strategic M&A deal that will allow you to enable your salesforce to enter a new market faster. If you’re me, you are gathering case studies, building sales presentations & processes, establishing the steps in the sales process, dreaming up new angles or offers to test that may get your foot in the door more easily, adding product differentiation, finding a new story to explain the concept and so on.

But ideally you shouldn’t be cold-calling lol. Leave the cold-calling to a guy with a script. You modify the script, and that modifies his results, assuming he is actually a capable cold-caller, applies the right tonality, can go off script when needed, etc.

So basically, the people are paying $60K because of the bottle, not because of the water. Could it also be that they believe the bottle will become a collectors item and then an investment in the future?

Could be, but personally I’d guess someone who is happy to pay $60K for the water bottle doesn’t really look at it as an investment. I’d imagine their net worth is $5M+ at least, $60K up or down wouldn’t make a difference for them.

I’d say it’s more of they love the concept or they love the artist that would be the primary drivers. It’s one thing to consider a Van Gogh an investment when you can put $5-10M+ into it, and another thing to consider a $60K water bottle an investment.

It’s more of a luxury purchase, the way you’d buy a lambo — you’re not really looking at it as an investment.

 

[BizyDad]

I invite all of you to either learn to code or learn sales. I will die on this hill.

Personally, I’ve come to believe that these skills are ultimately not as important as some people make them sound on this forum for entrepreneurs.

*Gasp*

"Some people"?

Golly, I wonder who could be doing all this misleading...

But for me, the starting point of everything is sales & marketing.

Wait, wut?

Just how much has your business philosophy changed in the last...

*checks timestamps*

24 hours?

"Some people", indeed.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

*Gasp*

"Some people"?

Golly, I wonder who could be doing all this misleading...



Wait, wut?

Just how much has your business philosophy changed in the last...

*checks timestamps*

24 hours?

"Some people", indeed.

In Eastern Europe we say that only the mule is consistent in life

Spoiler

(And in one case we’re discussing about sales and marketing as skills, in another sales and marketing as activities or results. Yes sales and marketing are the most important business activities by far. But not the most important skills)

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[biophase]

Could be, but personally I’d guess someone who is happy to pay $60K for the water bottle doesn’t really look at it as an investment. I’d imagine their net worth is $5M+ at least, $60K up or down wouldn’t make a difference for them.

As someone with 5m+ networth, I can tell you that $60k is still alot of money to be and would make a difference. I think you have no concept on how much and little $5m or $10m is.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

As someone with 5m+ networth, I can tell you that $60k is still alot of money to be and would make a difference. I think you have no concept on how much and little $5m or $10m is.

Not to me it’s not. Remember I spent $50K on a holiday, and I don’t have that net worth. This has more to do with your money mindset. You may not be a big spender, but some wealthy folks definitely are.

 

[biophase]

Not to me it’s not. Remember I spent $50K on a holiday, and I don’t have that net worth. This has more to do with your money mindset. You may not be a big spender, but some wealthy folks definitely are.

Well if that’s your money mindset I guess I’m going to predict a future crash and burn. We can revisit this 5 years from today and see where your networth is. I’ve been on this forum 16 years now and I’ve seen many people here make alot of money and have nothing to show for it many years later.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Black_Dragon43]

Well if that’s your money mindset I guess I’m going to predict a future crash and burn. We can revisit this 5 years from today and see where your networth is. I’ve been on this forum 16 years now and I’ve seen many people here make alot of money and have nothing to show for it many years later.

I’ve already crashed and burned once brother, hopefully it won’t happen again. I have 2 properties, fully paid now, so that should keep part of my net worth safe in case of a crash and burn. And ofc, no debts.

I now divide my money between EASY money — stuff like making money in crypto, and HARD money, which is stuff like the business. Easy money, you can have fun with it, hard money, you need to be a little bit more careful with.

But you’re right, I do have a tendency to spend money easily.

 

[Stargazer]

@Black_Dragon43 Hey Sherlock. The article you linked to has a nice clue within for you to ascertain the brand of bottle displayed in the first post.

Dan

 

[Black_Dragon43]

@Stargazer

Activates genius-level IQ…

30 seconds after…

FILLICO | BLACK KING

FILLICO The Jewelery Water from Japan -- FILLICO Jewelery Water - Excellence of Ultimate Luxury LAST BOTTLE WORLDWIDE Fillico was founded in 2005 with the vision that the world's most precious natural resource - water - should be cherished and loved, embedded in a masterpiece of craftsmanship...

fine-liquids.com

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Stargazer]

Jolly good, well done.

Dan

 

[Devilery]

Positioning and presentation are significant but not the key differences; they are just two of many vital ingredients.

I'm currently working with someone selling a fashion item for $1500 (starting price) while the 'same' item can be easily bought for $10. By the way, it's not jewelry.

At first, I thought selling them would be tough, but I changed my mind. They're handmade by artisans who've worked for the largest fashion brands in the world, and the materials are so rare that only a selected few can order them, and they still have to wait in line due to the very limited supply. Of course, there are also incredible stories tied to them, but those come after.

It's not a $10 product with a story that raises its price to $1000 or more. It's a $500 - $5000 product (cost) with a great story.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Could be, but personally I’d guess someone who is happy to pay $60K for the water bottle doesn’t really look at it as an investment. I’d imagine their net worth is $5M+ at least, $60K up or down wouldn’t make a difference for them.

If someone is paying $60K for a bottle of water with a paltry $5M-$10M net worth, they likely will be broke in a few years.

I'm with @biophase on this.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[rpeck90]

There is an excellent article I read on positioning some time ago, which may provide further insight for some people: -


Whilst I don't think "helping people" is an appropriate mindset in isolation (business necessitates a proclivity for self preservation), the above is a good example of how to present yourself in a way that makes "getting paid" a natural part of the conversation. Obviously, this can be extended to other instances.

-

That’s fantastic, love to see you crushing it!


Personally, I’ve come to believe that these skills are ultimately not as important as some people make them sound on this forum for entrepreneurs. I will explain why below.



Is it? I’m not sure about that water bottle since I can’t read the brand and research it, but this water bottle sells for $60K: The World's Most Expensive Bottle of Water Costs $60,000

Al Ries and Jack Trout define positioning as what you do to the mind of the customer, NOT to the product. As such, it is about the story you tell about the product.

It’s me taking a supermarket tea, researching its origin, and then telling some story about how monks in Japan or wherever create this tea and then drink it for potency and physical strength or whatever. And thus, convincing people to pay more than what they’d pay at the supermarket and pocketing the difference.

It’s basically taking the same product, and changing the story / emphasis.

This is NOT what makes the bottle above sell for $60K. If it was, then I could take any other bottle of water and sell it for $60K, and I can’t. What allows it to be sold for $60K isn’t the story (although that certainly contributes to it), but rather the product itself:



The way it is manufactured. This goes under product, not positioning. Can you manufacture a similar product? If you can’t, then your positioning skills are useless, you won’t even be able to position it in this way. Remember, positioning is about what you do to the mind of the customer, not to the product.



Being a giant nerd and obsessed about what creates business success, I’ve read all those books, copied sales letters by hand and did everything you’re talking about. Can’t say it’s not helpful, but it’s not the key to success that you make it out to be either.

Why?

Copywriting: this is how I got my start. I worked for some of the best players in the direct response industry. I’ve read 100+ copywriting related books. Copied 100s of sales letters. Did that give me a huge advantage? Nah. Most copywriters aren’t rich, and even the ones who are or were rich like Gary Halbert were “small” rich, not big rich. Copywriting teaches you what to say… you can say all the right things and someone still won’t buy. Because they don’t trust you, because you don’t have enough social proof, because they don’t like your face, because they don’t like the product and so on. Ultimately what a copywriter can do is limited by the brand they’re working for. Usually copywriting works really well for dumb people — Agora sells billions in less than honest “products”… newsletters and such. This works on the mind of a gullible person. But in real B2B business, it doesn’t. Or it works despite the copy, not because of it. Jay Abraham sells because of his reputation, not his copy. If it was his copy, you should be able to steal it and reproduce his results. But you can’t. I’ve tested it. Therefore it’s not the copy. The copy Tony Robbins uses is cheesy and crap. If you used the same copy, 0 results. Therefore it’s not his copy that sells, but his brand. And I can go on.

Sales: I’ve read more sales books than copywriting ones. How to Win Friends, Spin Selling, Can’t Teach a Kid to Ride a Bike at a Seminar, Challenger Sales, Gap Selling, Selling to VITO, Natural Selling (not the name of the book, but the name of the method), Pitch Anything, Mastering Influence (course, Tony Robbins), Way of the Wolf + Straight Line Selling (course), To Sell is Human, Sell or be Sold, Stop Acting like a Seller Start Thinking Like a Buyer, Smart Calling, Little Red Book of Selling, The Secrets of Closing the Sale, Influence, Ultimate Sales Machine, How I Raised Myself from Failure to Success, Insight Selling and many many more, these are just some of the more famous ones that come to mind.

All those books are mostly useless. Businessmen are sucky salesmen. And most salesmen make sucky entrepreneurs. Sales people are sort of cannon fodder. They’re given product info, given use-case info, given case studies, given a territory and sometimes leads, and told go out there and sell this crap. If the crap sells, it’s usually more to do with the crap itself and the company, than the salesperson and their sales skills. Why do you think “good” salespeople fight to work for top companies that usually sell very high priced enterprise level software? Because the margins are the highest there, and it’s easy to sell something like that. Why don’t they become entrepreneurs, the vast majority of them? How you handle objections has to do mostly with how well-thought out the product is. How you tell the story of what your product does has mostly to do with what you product CAN do in the first place. How you ask questions to uncover needs is limited by whether the other party will speak to you or not, and that’s mostly a matter of the company you’re affiliated with and its reputation. And I can go on.

Bill Gates can’t sell for his life. Neither can Elon Musk. Despite them being called “master” salesmen by the likes of Peter Thiel and other non-salesmen. Suffice to say that the way these guys sell, has nothing to do with what you can learn within sales books. If you want, it has to do with building a brand, building a reputation, and so on. These are all things that make sales easier, and that if you put behind a good salesperson, he can do very well with, but without them, he’s hopeless!

I’d say the skills that truly matter to entrepreneurs are much more about:

• Creative problem solving within economic constraints (even most of sales is about this for an entrepreneur. I’m thinking, for example, how can I provide more value for a minimum cost upfront to acquire customers more easily? Or what other services should I be selling to maximise lifetime value? These are all questions that a salesperson is NOT asking, because they are above his paygrade — salespeople are taught to operate WITHIN those constraints).

• Organisation-building (putting together SOPs, attracting talent & investment etc)

• Leadership (motivating people)

• Strategic Foresight — ability to zero-in on the right ends to be achieved and then assembling together the means of achieving them.

Entrepreneurs are far from being just glorified salesmen. Most entrepreneurs who glorify sales forget that what is actually responsible for those sales has little to do with sales skills.

And the best entrepreneurs I know can’t sell to save their life. They hire people to sell, and put together the environment that makes sales easy for them.

Agree with the majority of this excellent post (gave it gold!).

The OP's post seems to ignore some of the more intricate aspects of business that are garnered through experience. IE one can't just slap a $5k price tag on a water bottle and expect it to sell.

The most succinct way I have found to explain why is each product provides a "result" to a buyer.

The more perceptively valuable the result, the more likely someone is willing to pay a premium to obtain it.

What "result" does the $5k water provide that "normal" water does not? Perhaps it helps clean out your body's lymphatic system due to certain minerals contained in the water. Perhaps...

Whilst there are tricks that can be used to enhance the appeal of certain products, without a clear & potent demonstration of how they are able to provide enhanced results, they will struggle to sell. The only exception I've found is the social aspect; IE when buyers collectively decide a product is "worth it" despite being objectively unvaluable.

-

Personally, I’ve come to believe that these skills are ultimately not as important as some people make them sound on this forum for entrepreneurs. I will explain why below.

I went down this rabbit hole some years ago and made a poster when I was working on the brand CRM system I built. It represents what I feel a "company" looks like, although it's obviously wishy-washy (don't roast me, my ego is fragile!!).

It demonstrates what you were alluding to with the post (entrepreneurship is about building an entity wider than sales alone): -

You can see the WIP here (every one of those little dots was done by hand): -

-

Regarding the water example, there are some things to consider with it.

"Real" entrepreneurship - in my view - is the act of commercialising an innovation, from which enhanced results are obtained. The innovation is (typically) a new process delivered as a product or service. I've touched on this previously.

When done properly, it explains why certain products command higher prices. Tom Ford suits, as I unfortunately keep referring to, aren't about the suiting, fabric or even the fit. They're about giving you the means to elevate yourself to a higher level in business & life through enhanced confidence. Listen to how this guy describes his experience with one: -

The "innovation" behind fashion companies is mainly focused on the experience a buyer can expect to attain through the wearing of the brand's clothing. The clothing alone does not do this - rather, the way in which the brand "positions" itself as the purveyor of a particular experience.

Louboutin is a weak, but pronounced, example. Quintessentially Parisian, I first found out about them due to the founder's collaborative work avec le Moulin Rouge. The various ads the company creates are focused on capturing the Parisian laissez-faire experience they represent...



If you're in the market for shoes from this company, the purchase decision is not likely driven by the shoes themselves, rather how they fit into an experience you want to be a part of. If it were me, I'd be thinking about where I could wear the shoes and what effect they would have on that experience. The job of the fashion company is to innovate on this experience and accentuate it to such an extent that it becomes synonymous with the brand.

They then promote the benefits of the experience, not the products themselves. To use @Black_Dragon43 parlance, "sell the transformation". A suiting company I like called Dormeuil did something similar with their "Dormeuil man": -

These illustrations provide an idealistic interpretation of how their cloth could be worn. If you're a man, you will appreciate the value having a well-cut suit can bring (as evidenced by the Tom Ford guy above). Dormeuil have attempted to create meaning to this through defining certain experiences through which their products can fit.

When considering why certain bottled water may command a higher price than others, there are two (perhaps three) avenues of innovation: -

1. Health

Lourdes in France attracts 10,000's of visitors each year due to its "healing properties". Some sell water from its spring for a premium and it has such reverence that places + people have been named after it. My father used to work at a private hospital in Liverpool called Lourdes and I think Madonna named her daughter after the place: -

I imagine the majority of people who buy bottled water do so because of the "health benefits" it's meant to provide.

Everybody needs water to live. Many don't have drinkable running water and, consequently, depend on bottled. However, there is definitely a movement in nations where "tap" water is drinkable to buy bottled water as a means to avoid chemicals etc. High priced filters etc are aimed at people who don't trust "government water".

The majority of spring / bottled water will be sold with some sort of health benefit attached. "It's filtered through rocks", "It's 10,000 years old" etc etc. While there may be some marginal benefit due to dissolved minerals, you're not going to see any real difference vs taking supplements. People pay because it's perceptively better for their health.

2. Performance

Athletic performance is a huge market and - at the heart of it - the myriad of "sports drinks" are basically selling a mix of water + chemicals. Each is designed to provide a specific benefit.

Being able to take "water" and mix it with something that provides a quantifiable means to enhance one's performance in some field is hugely valuable. One example I can think of now would be to help encourage higher focus for small business owners.

Point being the "delivery mechanism" of water would be a cover for the underlying benefit the buyer would want. In the case of a sports person, it's to become a better athlete; in the case of a business person, it's to make more money.

Having someone like Alex Hormozi promote a "premium" water brand "enhanced with an exclusive supplement mix" to encourage 6+ hour performance would be a product a lot of people would be pay premium for. Put it in one of those glass bottles that look sleek and provide the powder separately in a little pouch that changes the colour or something.

3. Status / Artisan

Finally, the most obvious is to make the product something that enhances the purveyor's social status. This can include the artisanal benefits derived from beautiful design to having some sort of pedigree that cannot be copied.

An example of this in action was the "bottle wars" meme that appeared several months ago; men in some US clubs pouring out bottles of the most expensive liquor as a display of dominance. Plebeian behaviour aside, the underlying thing they're doing is using a perceptively valuable product to enhance their own.

If you are able to insert your product into this thought-process, it doesn't matter if it's Don Perignon or water, the result will be the same - some people want to pay a premium to be "somebody". Bernard Arnault basically became the wealthiest guy in the world for this reason.

-

NONE of the above change the underlying properties of the product. It's H2O.

The difference lies in how it can be used, where it takes the buyer and the expected "result" it helps them realize.

If "your" water helps prolong someone's life by 5+ years, surely it's worth $5k? If "your" water get some guy laid with a supermodel, how much would that be worth? The list goes on.

The key is having the underlying "reason" why someone would benefit from "your" thing in the first place. Without that, copywriting/sales does little to help build value beyond gimmicks.

-

Whilst there are many ways to accentuate the perceived value of a product, positioning is a deeper, visceral, ideal which a brand needs to represent on a fundamental level.

In my view, the way to do it is to create an "innovation" which sits at the heart of the brand's offer. The job of a marketeer is to enhance the appeal of said innovation through selling the "result" it creates (sell the transformation) and, finally, salespeople optimize delivery through targeted outreach to highly specific clientele.

Difficult? Yes. Achievable? Absolutely, but requires smart investment in order to come up with something worth sharing before promotion (as Tudor explained). Being able to do that is why certain people (Bill Gates et al) are able to "sell" without "selling".

The ultimate "trump card" is "you". Your style / insights / experience is unique and gives you the ability to create solutions in a novel way to others. Leaning into this is the most sure way to bring a "premium" position to what you're doing. I actually alluded to such in the tagline I chose for the brand CRM thing I made: -

Hopefully that provides further perspective. I wrote a long post about branding a few years who which I've not posted. It's broadly about this sort of thing; wanted to have some real results to showcase before sharing it.

 

[IceCreamKid]

So to understand this correctly: You are building a "luxury/high-end" software/service? If you take into consideration that the whole luxury market exists in the form of physical products (or doesn't it maybe?), that's a very novel idea for me.

No, it's not a luxury SaaS. I wrote that post late at night when my brain was tired and failed at explaining my intent clearly with the use of the $5k water bottle example. I chose that example because I figured the audience here would relate to a physical product example more than a sales example.

Here's what I meant to convey(from a sales lens): You have to have an understanding of what your product is and the value proposition to the person you're selling to.

In my situation I was selling to a company whose client base consisted of 1,500 real estate brokers. The sales cycle started a little over 1 year ago and had multiple decision makers involved. Each person had different criteria for what was important to them; that's perfectly normal. Initially we couldn't find a mutual fit so things fizzled out and no deal was made. It was only after I tweaked my offering 1 year later that we were able to figure out a deal that would solve their specific bleeding problem.

We ultimately settled on $100/mo for each real estate broker. Far from luxury pricing.

My favorite example of positioning is when Mark Cuban bought the Dallas Mavericks.

His sales team would cold call prospects and price anchor first by saying, “Did you know that going to a Mavs game is less expensive than eating at McDonald’s?”.

Then they'd ask, “Do you remember when your mom or dad first took you to a game? Do you remember how you felt?”

What they’d get back is fond memories. And then they went back to the price anchor:

“Did you get that going to McDonald’s? Do you get that going to the movies?”

And then they'd follow with his close:

“I can’t guarantee you we are going to win or lose. But I can guarantee you we’re going to create a look in your son or daughter’s face that you won’t get anywhere else and it’s $8 a ticket.”

They went from 24th in the league to the 14th in ticket sales after just 1 year. They positioned it masterfully in the mind of the buyer.

In addition to the Jay Abrahams book, do you have any book tips regarding the psychology and mechanism of luxury items?

Nope. The luxury products space isn't in my wheelhouse.

Regarding the Jay Abraham book, I recommend it primarily because you'll learn the importance of focusing on hinges that swing huge doors.

Let's pretend you're Fox and you're selling web design to carpet cleaners. You can try cold calling individual carpet cleaners offering your services....or you can try your hand at making a deal with ChemDry who has 2,500 franchisees and each one requires a website.

Everyone here would benefit greatly if they learned to identify an ideal target buyer and how to get a discussion going. The real challenge is it can get complex when you start going after the large hinges because it requires multi-threading.

 

[skyflare]

That’s fantastic, love to see you crushing it!


Personally, I’ve come to believe that these skills are ultimately not as important as some people make them sound on this forum for entrepreneurs. I will explain why below.



Is it? I’m not sure about that water bottle since I can’t read the brand and research it, but this water bottle sells for $60K: The World's Most Expensive Bottle of Water Costs $60,000

Al Ries and Jack Trout define positioning as what you do to the mind of the customer, NOT to the product. As such, it is about the story you tell about the product.

It’s me taking a supermarket tea, researching its origin, and then telling some story about how monks in Japan or wherever create this tea and then drink it for potency and physical strength or whatever. And thus, convincing people to pay more than what they’d pay at the supermarket and pocketing the difference.

It’s basically taking the same product, and changing the story / emphasis.

This is NOT what makes the bottle above sell for $60K. If it was, then I could take any other bottle of water and sell it for $60K, and I can’t. What allows it to be sold for $60K isn’t the story (although that certainly contributes to it), but rather the product itself:



The way it is manufactured. This goes under product, not positioning. Can you manufacture a similar product? If you can’t, then your positioning skills are useless, you won’t even be able to position it in this way. Remember, positioning is about what you do to the mind of the customer, not to the product.



Being a giant nerd and obsessed about what creates business success, I’ve read all those books, copied sales letters by hand and did everything you’re talking about. Can’t say it’s not helpful, but it’s not the key to success that you make it out to be either.

Why?

Copywriting: this is how I got my start. I worked for some of the best players in the direct response industry. I’ve read 100+ copywriting related books. Copied 100s of sales letters. Did that give me a huge advantage? Nah. Most copywriters aren’t rich, and even the ones who are or were rich like Gary Halbert were “small” rich, not big rich. Copywriting teaches you what to say… you can say all the right things and someone still won’t buy. Because they don’t trust you, because you don’t have enough social proof, because they don’t like your face, because they don’t like the product and so on. Ultimately what a copywriter can do is limited by the brand they’re working for. Usually copywriting works really well for dumb people — Agora sells billions in less than honest “products”… newsletters and such. This works on the mind of a gullible person. But in real B2B business, it doesn’t. Or it works despite the copy, not because of it. Jay Abraham sells because of his reputation, not his copy. If it was his copy, you should be able to steal it and reproduce his results. But you can’t. I’ve tested it. Therefore it’s not the copy. The copy Tony Robbins uses is cheesy and crap. If you used the same copy, 0 results. Therefore it’s not his copy that sells, but his brand. And I can go on.

Sales: I’ve read more sales books than copywriting ones. How to Win Friends, Spin Selling, Can’t Teach a Kid to Ride a Bike at a Seminar, Challenger Sales, Gap Selling, Selling to VITO, Natural Selling (not the name of the book, but the name of the method), Pitch Anything, Mastering Influence (course, Tony Robbins), Way of the Wolf + Straight Line Selling (course), To Sell is Human, Sell or be Sold, Stop Acting like a Seller Start Thinking Like a Buyer, Smart Calling, Little Red Book of Selling, The Secrets of Closing the Sale, Influence, Ultimate Sales Machine, How I Raised Myself from Failure to Success, Insight Selling and many many more, these are just some of the more famous ones that come to mind.

All those books are mostly useless. Businessmen are sucky salesmen. And most salesmen make sucky entrepreneurs. Sales people are sort of cannon fodder. They’re given product info, given use-case info, given case studies, given a territory and sometimes leads, and told go out there and sell this crap. If the crap sells, it’s usually more to do with the crap itself and the company, than the salesperson and their sales skills. Why do you think “good” salespeople fight to work for top companies that usually sell very high priced enterprise level software? Because the margins are the highest there, and it’s easy to sell something like that. Why don’t they become entrepreneurs, the vast majority of them? How you handle objections has to do mostly with how well-thought out the product is. How you tell the story of what your product does has mostly to do with what you product CAN do in the first place. How you ask questions to uncover needs is limited by whether the other party will speak to you or not, and that’s mostly a matter of the company you’re affiliated with and its reputation. And I can go on.

Bill Gates can’t sell for his life. Neither can Elon Musk. Despite them being called “master” salesmen by the likes of Peter Thiel and other non-salesmen. Suffice to say that the way these guys sell, has nothing to do with what you can learn within sales books. If you want, it has to do with building a brand, building a reputation, and so on. These are all things that make sales easier, and that if you put behind a good salesperson, he can do very well with, but without them, he’s hopeless!

I’d say the skills that truly matter to entrepreneurs are much more about:

• Creative problem solving within economic constraints (even most of sales is about this for an entrepreneur. I’m thinking, for example, how can I provide more value for a minimum cost upfront to acquire customers more easily? Or what other services should I be selling to maximise lifetime value? These are all questions that a salesperson is NOT asking, because they are above his paygrade — salespeople are taught to operate WITHIN those constraints).

• Organisation-building (putting together SOPs, attracting talent & investment etc)

• Leadership (motivating people)

• Strategic Foresight — ability to zero-in on the right ends to be achieved and then assembling together the means of achieving them.

Entrepreneurs are far from being just glorified salesmen. Most entrepreneurs who glorify sales forget that what is actually responsible for those sales has little to do with sales skills.

And the best entrepreneurs I know can’t sell to save their life. They hire people to sell, and put together the environment that makes sales easy for them.

Yesterday night I was turning and tossing in my bed because I didn't thank you for this post, so now I do, to hopefully have a calm night's sleep. I have been seeing your name pop up from time to time, and I really appreciate the knowledge and personal experience you share to help others.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Two Dog]

Post #1 & #2 in this thread by both of you are excellent!!!

Bill Gates can’t sell for his life. Neither can Elon Musk. Despite them being called “master” salesmen by the likes of Peter Thiel and other non-salesmen. Suffice to say that the way these guys sell, has nothing to do with what you can learn within sales books

At least the second part is true. Neither of them gives good presentation or can be learned from sales books. They're both pretty awful speaking in front of groups. Yet some how, some way both are billionaires many times over which means they're better at selling than anyone on the planet. Selling doesn't mean making widgets change hands. It's persuading, threatening, arm twisting. It's making things happen. It's putting big levers together, pulling on them and making big things happen - usually with big $$$ attached.
I *know* you know this. You're just being contrary.

I invite all of you to either learn to code or learn sales. I will die on this hill.

Could you expand on this?

At least some of the reasons for learning to code. The deal you described doesn't sound like coding at all.

 

[IceCreamKid]

Could you expand on this?

At least some of the reasons for learning to code. The deal you described doesn't sound like coding at all.

One thing that is rarely discussed is the probability of success. Statistically speaking, starting a biz is a suicide mission and there is a small chance you'll get rich....but the probability is you will end up broke.

Some will even get rich and end up broke shortly after. I've seen it happen multiple times on this forum.

The reality is most people aren't cut out for biz and they're 10x better off getting a job coding or in tech sales. The reason why I suggest those careers is because you'll get paid very well while simultaneously learning highly transferable skills.

The high probability path to becoming a millionaire is this:

1. Get a job coding or in tech sales. Bleed the job and do just enough to not get fired. The job gives you the capital to fund your biz.
2. Work on your biz at night.
3. Quit the job when your biz is consistently earning 2-3x what your job pays you. Or keep the job if you get genuine fulfillment from it.

I'm more of a sales guy so here's the typical journey for someone in tech sales:

Year 1: Entry level SDR role $90k OTE
Year 2: Promoted to SMB AE $125k OTE
Year 3: Promoted to MM AE $200k OTE
Year 4: Promoted to Enterprise AE $300k OTE. The best will earn $1M and up.

Full disclosure: No path is perfect and easy so you might as well take the highest probability path to wealth. There are upsides and downsides to everything including tech sales. Territories can change on you, comp plans can change, new VP of Sales can decide to lay off the entire team to justify his inflated salary. With that said, the probabilities are more in your favor if you go this route.

Selling doesn't mean making widgets change hands. It's persuading, threatening, arm twisting.

When you're selling low ticket stuff Grand Cardone or Jordan Belfort style yes there is probably some threatening and arm twisting. Not so much at the higher level.

When you're selling 6-7 figure deals you're playing the role of the doctor and trust consultant. You're finding problems within their organization and showing an actual business case for how your service can solve those problems. In addition to that, deals at that level involve multiple decision makers so you have to position yourself in a way that all of them can align with.

It's a very noble profession because you're genuinely helping others to ultimately make the best decision for themselves.

 

[BrunoRastablasta]

That’s fantastic, love to see you crushing it!


Personally, I’ve come to believe that these skills are ultimately not as important as some people make them sound on this forum for entrepreneurs. I will explain why below.



Is it? I’m not sure about that water bottle since I can’t read the brand and research it, but this water bottle sells for $60K: The World's Most Expensive Bottle of Water Costs $60,000

Al Ries and Jack Trout define positioning as what you do to the mind of the customer, NOT to the product. As such, it is about the story you tell about the product.

It’s me taking a supermarket tea, researching its origin, and then telling some story about how monks in Japan or wherever create this tea and then drink it for potency and physical strength or whatever. And thus, convincing people to pay more than what they’d pay at the supermarket and pocketing the difference.

It’s basically taking the same product, and changing the story / emphasis.

This is NOT what makes the bottle above sell for $60K. If it was, then I could take any other bottle of water and sell it for $60K, and I can’t. What allows it to be sold for $60K isn’t the story (although that certainly contributes to it), but rather the product itself:



The way it is manufactured. This goes under product, not positioning. Can you manufacture a similar product? If you can’t, then your positioning skills are useless, you won’t even be able to position it in this way. Remember, positioning is about what you do to the mind of the customer, not to the product.



Being a giant nerd and obsessed about what creates business success, I’ve read all those books, copied sales letters by hand and did everything you’re talking about. Can’t say it’s not helpful, but it’s not the key to success that you make it out to be either.

Why?

Copywriting: this is how I got my start. I worked for some of the best players in the direct response industry. I’ve read 100+ copywriting related books. Copied 100s of sales letters. Did that give me a huge advantage? Nah. Most copywriters aren’t rich, and even the ones who are or were rich like Gary Halbert were “small” rich, not big rich. Copywriting teaches you what to say… you can say all the right things and someone still won’t buy. Because they don’t trust you, because you don’t have enough social proof, because they don’t like your face, because they don’t like the product and so on. Ultimately what a copywriter can do is limited by the brand they’re working for. Usually copywriting works really well for dumb people — Agora sells billions in less than honest “products”… newsletters and such. This works on the mind of a gullible person. But in real B2B business, it doesn’t. Or it works despite the copy, not because of it. Jay Abraham sells because of his reputation, not his copy. If it was his copy, you should be able to steal it and reproduce his results. But you can’t. I’ve tested it. Therefore it’s not the copy. The copy Tony Robbins uses is cheesy and crap. If you used the same copy, 0 results. Therefore it’s not his copy that sells, but his brand. And I can go on.

Sales: I’ve read more sales books than copywriting ones. How to Win Friends, Spin Selling, Can’t Teach a Kid to Ride a Bike at a Seminar, Challenger Sales, Gap Selling, Selling to VITO, Natural Selling (not the name of the book, but the name of the method), Pitch Anything, Mastering Influence (course, Tony Robbins), Way of the Wolf + Straight Line Selling (course), To Sell is Human, Sell or be Sold, Stop Acting like a Seller Start Thinking Like a Buyer, Smart Calling, Little Red Book of Selling, The Secrets of Closing the Sale, Influence, Ultimate Sales Machine, How I Raised Myself from Failure to Success, Insight Selling and many many more, these are just some of the more famous ones that come to mind.

All those books are mostly useless. Businessmen are sucky salesmen. And most salesmen make sucky entrepreneurs. Sales people are sort of cannon fodder. They’re given product info, given use-case info, given case studies, given a territory and sometimes leads, and told go out there and sell this crap. If the crap sells, it’s usually more to do with the crap itself and the company, than the salesperson and their sales skills. Why do you think “good” salespeople fight to work for top companies that usually sell very high priced enterprise level software? Because the margins are the highest there, and it’s easy to sell something like that. Why don’t they become entrepreneurs, the vast majority of them? How you handle objections has to do mostly with how well-thought out the product is. How you tell the story of what your product does has mostly to do with what you product CAN do in the first place. How you ask questions to uncover needs is limited by whether the other party will speak to you or not, and that’s mostly a matter of the company you’re affiliated with and its reputation. And I can go on.

Bill Gates can’t sell for his life. Neither can Elon Musk. Despite them being called “master” salesmen by the likes of Peter Thiel and other non-salesmen. Suffice to say that the way these guys sell, has nothing to do with what you can learn within sales books. If you want, it has to do with building a brand, building a reputation, and so on. These are all things that make sales easier, and that if you put behind a good salesperson, he can do very well with, but without them, he’s hopeless!

I’d say the skills that truly matter to entrepreneurs are much more about:

• Creative problem solving within economic constraints (even most of sales is about this for an entrepreneur. I’m thinking, for example, how can I provide more value for a minimum cost upfront to acquire customers more easily? Or what other services should I be selling to maximise lifetime value? These are all questions that a salesperson is NOT asking, because they are above his paygrade — salespeople are taught to operate WITHIN those constraints).

• Organisation-building (putting together SOPs, attracting talent & investment etc)

• Leadership (motivating people)

• Strategic Foresight — ability to zero-in on the right ends to be achieved and then assembling together the means of achieving them.

Entrepreneurs are far from being just glorified salesmen. Most entrepreneurs who glorify sales forget that what is actually responsible for those sales has little to do with sales skills.

And the best entrepreneurs I know can’t sell to save their life. They hire people to sell, and put together the environment that makes sales easy for them.

This is the most accurate description of the relationship between product and sales, and salesmen and entrepreneurs. Well done!

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Two Dog]

The reality is most people aren't cut out for biz and they're 10x better off getting a job coding or in tech sales. The reason why I suggest those careers is because you'll get paid very well while simultaneously learning highly transferable skills.

All of that makes perfect sense. Thx for the clarification!

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Yet some how, some way both are billionaires many times over which means they're better at selling than anyone on the planet

Thank you, I agree with most of your comments except for this part. I don’t see the connection between making lots of money and being good at sales. Sales is just one component, you can be sucky at it and be very good at other components and do very well.

I’d say they’re both highly intelligent 140-150 IQs, they are great strategists, and they’re very capable technically. Especially the last part is very important.

Although not perfect I do like Peter Drucker’s definition of business as innovation + marketing. Innovation not in the sense of newness, but in the sense of better value.

Both of them are masters of innovation and great strategists, but sucky marketers (and salesmen). They do bring other people though who are great in the marketing department.

One thing that is rarely discussed is the probability of success. Statistically speaking, starting a biz is a suicide mission and there is a small chance you'll get rich....but the probability is you will end up broke.

Some will even get rich and end up broke shortly after. I've seen it happen multiple times on this forum.

The reality is most people aren't cut out for biz and they're 10x better off getting a job coding or in tech sales. The reason why I suggest those careers is because you'll get paid very well while simultaneously learning highly transferable skills.

The high probability path to becoming a millionaire is this:

1. Get a job coding or in tech sales. Bleed the job and do just enough to not get fired. The job gives you the capital to fund your biz.
2. Work on your biz at night.
3. Quit the job when your biz is consistently earning 2-3x what your job pays you. Or keep the job if you get genuine fulfillment from it.

I agree with this. If you want to build a $10M net worth, the fastest, most certain path to do it is as you describe. And in fact, scratch starting the biz. Get promoted to C-level instead.

You do need to be well educated though, and smart. No ways around that.

My cousin is like that. He’s VP of sales for a multi-billion dollar tech company.

When you're selling 6-7 figure deals you're playing the role of the doctor and trust consultant. You're finding problems within their organization and showing an actual business case for how your service can solve those problems. In addition to that, deals at that level involve multiple decision makers so you have to position yourself in a way that all of them can align with.

From what I’ve heard, this ends up being less about sales and more about your ability to architecture custom-made solutions for the client using the resources of your company. Sure the stuff you learn in SPIN Selling and what not is useful… but… ultimately it’s about convincing those guys that your company can give them exactly what they want and being able to uncover and address their concerns.

So the hardest part of the job ends up being convincing your tech team to go through with the custom implementation that your client wants. Because every engineer would like to just sell a template (laziness).

That’s what the great salespeople do. The mediocre ones just give up when the client asks for something their company hasn’t traditionally offered.

But… this is not so useful for entrepreneurs. As an entrepreneur, at least in my biz, my role is to sell my service as it is, I don’t have the resources to build customized implementation for everyone.

So I’ve actually converted my sales presentation from consultative to a pitch. Here’s the problem, do you have it? Cool, here’s how we solve it and here’s the price and timeline. You like it? (Of course this pitch phase comes after I qualified them and made sure they actually do need what I have)

This gives much better results.