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The Ukraine War, implications, outcome?

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nothingness

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Well it doesn’t apply to the rest of the world. Apart from shithole countries like Russia, China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia and so on, it’s a lot more difficult to put a bullet through your head. Not that it’s not possible, just a lot tougher.

Look at Trump for example. He upset the entire establishment in the US, even the Republicans were opposed to him before he won, and they’re struggling to take him down even to this day. There was no physical force used against him. These things are almost impossible to pull off in the West. What they do in the West is start a court case against you, investigations, that kind of stuff.

Now look at Russia. Navalny is in jail. He got poisoned and almost died. There really is no comparison here…
Look at Princess Diana. A PRINCESS. Murdered in a tunnel, in Paris.

Thousands of people go missing a day, there's a huge issue with human trafficking in the West, you make it out like Russia is the wild wild west and the West is ironically safe...safety is an illusion.
 
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juicey

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What he means as a tragedy was there were ethnic Russian trapped outside Russia. Of course that doesn't give him the right to forcefully reclaim those Russian majority territory.
Not that Soviet Union purposefully didn't deport the ethnic population of occupied nations and send ethnic Russians to replace them so they could change the demographics of the countries and weaken nations :rolleyes: .

Putin is delighted that there are huge populations of ethnic russians in the bordering countries as this can be used as an excuse for invasion (Defending ethnic Russians who are being "discriminated" and "mistreated").
These people are not trapped. They could return to Russia anytime they want.
 

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Bigguns50

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So Russia and the Ukraine will negotiate. Russia will take control. The U.S. will say fine. But that's it. No more!
Or not....
 
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nothingness

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I wonder when the USA is going to invade Ukraine too?

Sorry. It happened with Afghanistan after they "fought for their freedom" against Russia, and Ukraine has oil so....
 

Black_Dragon43

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‍☠️ Eastern Europe
It is letting you know who is in charge and what price you will pay.

Khodorkovsky case is a turning point where there is significant improvement in rule if laws. Putin and friends did realize if their reputation is too bad that’s bad for foreign investment.
I don’t dispute that the Western judicial system can be used to go after people and it is used in this manner. But can you not see the difference between the West and Russia? In Russia the judicial system is 100% going to sentence you if those in power want to. In the West, and I know people who have dealt with this, it’s not the case. They go after you, you can fight them and win. They will keep going after you with new things until they get you, that’s another story, but you can fight them and win. In a corrupt autocratic government you cannot fight and win.

Also, “letting you know who is in charge” doesn’t happen just because you’re wealthy in the West - you’ve got to be involved in areas of interest to the government.
All I was saying is Russia is not Soviet Union and not modern day North Korea.
What’s the difference? Kim Jong Un poisoned his uncle. Putin poisons his enemies.
 

BizyDad

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I wonder when the USA is going to invade Ukraine too?

Sorry. It happened with Afghanistan after they "fought for their freedom" against Russia, and Ukraine has oil so...

I wonder which is more likely, the United States invading Ukraine, or you popping off another ridiculous theory?

Sorry. It happened like 5 pages ago, and 3 pages ago, so...
 
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nothingness

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If you don't like it, use the block function and keep regurgitating what your news companies tell you.
 

David Fitz

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Switzerland just took sides with the EU against Russia.

As far as I understand, Switzerland has been neutral for hundreds of years. Not sure if they sanctioned countries though in their neutral period.

Historic times.. and not in a good way.

Even Ireland is joining in...
 
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nothingness

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czbMvNh.jpg
 

EmotionEngine

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Things seemed to have changed fast with the Russia SWIFT ban and Ukraine Gov. tweeting out that they accept BTC.
coins.jpg
 
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Trevor Kuntz

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I wonder which is more likely, the United States invading Ukraine, or you popping off another ridiculous theory?

Sorry. It happened like 5 pages ago, and 3 pages ago, so...
How dare you insult this great man. In Russia, you aren't even allowed to drink your own piss, so we should be applauding him for his bravery and his freedom :beer:
 

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BizyDad

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If you don't like it, use the block function and keep regurgitating what your news companies tell you.

I approach this forum like everyone could potentially teach me something. Why would I block anyone? That's just weak-mindedness.

Shoot, if I was going to block anyone, it would probably have been @Black_Dragon43 or maybe @thechosen1 after our several dust-ups. And they teach me stuff all the time.

Blocking would've been my loss, not theirs.

So for the record, I only pop off to those who I think might actually be able to provide value. I gave you the respect of an honest response. It wasn't intended as an insult, it was a call to step up your game.

Shoot if I criticized everyone on this forum who needed to hear it I'd never get anything done. :rofl:

How dare you insult this great man. In Russia, you aren't even allowed to drink your own piss, so we should be applauding him for his bravery and his freedom :beer:

Apparently, the call was sorely needed. Wowza. :rofl:

Everybody, I want you to introduce you to what I call the @Lex DeVille rule. Early in my time on the forum I saw him say he only posts when he thinks he is adding actual value to the thread.

So check yourself. Are you bringing the value or just trying to sound smart?

That's an especially important rule in a thread like this, but it goes for every thread. Hey, I fail to meet that standard too. But I'm trying...

Lastly, adding value can be appreciation. I'm terribly ignorant about this part of the world, so I appreciate those of you who posted thoughtfully. Thank you.

Sorry for the thread hijack. I'll go back to listening now.
 

nothingness

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I approach this forum like everyone could potentially teach me something. Why would I block anyone? That's just weak-mindedness.

Shoot, if I was going to block anyone, it would probably have been @Black_Dragon43 or maybe @thechosen1 after our several dust-ups. And they teach me stuff all the time.

Blocking would've been my loss, not theirs.

So for the record, I only pop off to those who I think might actually be able to provide value. I gave you the respect of an honest response. It wasn't intended as an insult, it was a call to step up your game.

Shoot if I criticized everyone on this forum who needed to hear it I'd never get anything done. :rofl:



Apparently, the call was sorely needed. Wowza. :rofl:

Everybody, I want you to introduce you to what I call the @Lex DeVille rule. Early in my time on the forum I saw him say he only posts when he thinks he is adding actual value to the thread.

So check yourself. Are you bringing the value or just trying to sound smart?

That's an especially important rule in a thread like this, but it goes for every thread. Hey, I fail to meet that standard too. But I'm trying...

Lastly, adding value can be appreciation. I'm terribly ignorant about this part of the world, so I appreciate those of you who posted thoughtfully. Thank you.

Sorry for the thread hijack. I'll go back to listening now.
Sorry, I'm confused here. Are you a moderator? Are you aware this is off topic chat? Is this an official reprimand? Or do you only like people posting who agree with you? If you want an echo chamber, then go you, but I don't and never have thought like and acted with the majority. You even have a problem with me drinking my own urine (and it's rather sad that, that comment got screenshotted to use as "ammo" against it's author later on. I thought this forum was better than that). Am I supposed to wake up, take my big pharma antidepressant, go buy a Starbucks, whine about on Russia on Facebook instead?

Why would you "pop off to" anyone???
 

Xeon

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I think it's in the best interest of everyone here that we also get to see this from the other side:

View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1498257365480898561


View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1498257891350151168


What is happening to Ukraine and its people is beyond sad. But it looks like the situation isn't as black and white as it is presented.

This commenter "Mahesh Kumar" in the Twitter comments nailed it perfectly. Russia wants security guarantees, and ultimately, the US is the one that can give them this, not Ukraine. So if US really wants to stop this war, loves peace and save Ukraine, they need to negotiate with Russia directly. NATO is definitely not some defensive organisation as marketed, because "defensive" organisations don't expand eastward yearly.


I wonder when the USA is going to invade Ukraine too?

Sorry. It happened with Afghanistan after they "fought for their freedom" against Russia, and Ukraine has oil so....

1) US wants to make Russia collapse. Then they'll move in. And from this point, there's two fantasies they can finally fulfill :

a) Once Putin is disposed and they've full control of Russia, they'll build military bases in South-East Russia, from which they can fire missiles into China. Aha! There is lesser need for Taiwan now! Media rhetoric on Taiwan will greatly be reduced in western media.

b) US will declare that, due to "Russian terrorists and insurgency fighting" in Ukraine, they'll send in "peacekeeping troops" into Ukraine. And what they going to do? Well, bombers will fly across Ukraine 24/7 just like Iraq (remember the "Shock and Awe" strategy George War Bush used to boast about?), bomb the entire country to flat land, then they'll take control of Ukraine's oil and resources.

I'm not sure about the outcome of this Ukraine-Russia crisis. China has a no-interference policy with regards to countries, but will they idly sit by if Russia is on the brink of taken over by the US assuming if Russia loses in this war?
Because let's be honest : after the US is done with Russia, they'll advance on China next.

And what's after China? Maybe Iran and North Korea? And what's after that? Maybe South East Asia? Color revolutions to overthrow the governments here, sow discord between nations over a period of two decades, let them fight it out, media blasts one side as the demon 24/7, they play the good guy and "steps in to help", you know, the tried and tested US war playbook script.
 

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This commenter "Mahesh Kumar" in the Twitter comments nailed it perfectly. Russia wants security guarantees, and ultimately, the US is the one that can give them this, not Ukraine. So if US really wants to stop this war, loves peace and save Ukraine, they need to negotiate with Russia directly. NATO is definitely not some defensive organisation as marketed, because "defensive" organisations don't expand eastward yearly.




1) US wants to make Russia collapse. Then they'll move in. And from this point, there's two fantasies they can finally fulfill :

a) Once Putin is disposed and they've full control of Russia, they'll build military bases in South-East Russia, from which they can fire missiles into China. Aha! There is lesser need for Taiwan now! Media rhetoric on Taiwan will greatly be reduced in western media.

b) US will declare that, due to "Russian terrorists and insurgency fighting" in Ukraine, they'll send in "peacekeeping troops" into Ukraine. And what they going to do? Well, bombers will fly across Ukraine 24/7 just like Iraq (remember the "Shock and Awe" strategy George War Bush used to boast about?), bomb the entire country to flat land, then they'll take control of Ukraine's oil and resources.

I'm not sure about the outcome of this Ukraine-Russia crisis. China has a no-interference policy with regards to countries, but will they idly sit by if Russia is on the brink of taken over by the US assuming if Russia loses in this war?
Because let's be honest : after the US is done with Russia, they'll advance on China next.

And what's after China? Maybe Iran and North Korea? And what's after that? Maybe South East Asia? Color revolutions to overthrow the governments here, sow discord between nations over a period of two decades, let them fight it out, media blasts one side as the demon 24/7, they play the good guy and "steps in to help", you know, the tried and tested US war playbook script.
Even if Russia somehow collapsed, occupying it or even "taming" a population as nationalistic as Russians seems pretty impossible. We make a lot of comments about Russia's shrinking population but it is still the largest population in Europe with a large diaspora spread over a vast area. The amount of manpower required to occupy a non-acquiescing population of that size would be enormous.

Factor in that there is no way China would allow American occupation or vassalization of Russia for some of the exact reasons you have stated. As much as Turkey doesn't like Russia historically, I think even they would fight American occupation of the country.

Most likely, I think the Pentagon and CIA would be happy with returning to the status quo, which is already favorable to US and disfavorable to Russia and leave Putin to fester for another decade or two while his economy and population shrinks.
 
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juicey

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This commenter "Mahesh Kumar" in the Twitter comments nailed it perfectly. Russia wants security guarantees, and ultimately, the US is the one that can give them this, not Ukraine. So if US really wants to stop this war, loves peace and save Ukraine, they need to negotiate with Russia directly. NATO is definitely not some defensive organisation as marketed, because "defensive" organisations don't expand eastward yearly.
In the order of joining NATO:
1949 – Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, United Kingdom, United States.
1952 – Greece, Turkey
1955 – Germany
1982 – Spain
1999 – Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland
2004 – Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia
2009 – Albania, Croatia
2017 – Montenegro
2020 – North Macedonia

You call that a yearly expansion? Could you point out how many countries have gotten invaded from that list since joining NATO? The main reason why NATO keeps expanding in Eastern Europe is because of independent countries wanting to improve their safety and not be bullied around.
 

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I wonder if Big Tech had not censored the Hunter Biden Laptop story, if Russia would currently be invading Ukraine.
 

loop101

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He's put himself in quite an impossible situation.
If he has been in a similar situation before, it would be interesting to know what his reaction was. He does Judo, so maybe he will give up, to reset the situation, like tapping out and going another round. Hard to imagine Putin giving up, though.

He has survived a long time in Russian politics, it seems unlikely he would trap himself by simply getting slowed down so his tanks could be taken out by portable AT rockets. Russia beat Germany in WW2 by retreating and then trapping them, and Russia lost in Afghanistan due to portable weapons taking out their tanks and helicopters. They've seen all this before, there must be something else planned.

Maybe they expect capitulation weapons to work, as they did on Japan. That would be really terrible to see cities blow up and burned out. Russia has some massive conventional bombs and other stuff (thermobaric bombs) that would kill a lot of people. Ukraine might surrender unconditionally if they start losing cities.
 
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In the order of joining NATO:
1949 – Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, United Kingdom, United States.
1952 – Greece, Turkey
1955 – Germany
1982 – Spain
1999 – Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland
2004 – Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia
2009 – Albania, Croatia
2017 – Montenegro
2020 – North Macedonia

You call that a yearly expansion? Could you point out how many countries have gotten invaded from that list since joining NATO? The main reason why NATO keeps expanding in Eastern Europe is because of independent countries wanting to improve their safety and not be bullied around.

"Yearly expansion" is a sarcastic remark.

Let's look at this:

IMG-20220301-125804.jpg


For every country that joins NATO, US will move their military equipment in, with rockets to launch into Russia from.

Now, look at the above map and compare it with the map below, which shows the number of US bases in NATO countries:

------_8c4vgt4o.jpg


Crazy? HELL YEAH! This is INSANE!

Making use of Europe to launch strikes into Russia, and if Russia hits back, these European countries will be sacrificial offerings, while US soil remains intact!
 

Silverfox148

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Been watching/reading this Russia story unfold for the last week.

I hate to say it but it looks like we are heading for some type of use of tactical nuclear weapons or other non conventional use of weapons in Ukraine which is crazy. Putin/Russia is being left no off ramps by the West, it looks like the West is pushing for complete tactical and a strategic defeat of the Russian army in Ukraine as well as complete economic ruin of the Russian state. This unstated goal is just as mad and crazy as what Putin himself is doing in Ukraine.

To believe the Russians will not respond with their major trump cards is itself crazy if you know about Russian culture and thinking.

To invade Ukraine was/is wrong, it is not justifiable and Putin/Russia should be punished. However, to go off the rails and basically attempt to cut Russia off from the world is itself crazy also, this is backing them into a corner, the logic trains are spinning out of control, Biden himself as been caught up them just as Putin and the only remaining red line for Biden is not to send US troops in, everything else has already been done.

That leaves Biden/NATO/West no more escalation room, and Putin has yet to escalate outside of Ukraine. Keep a look out for cyber attacks or a possible conventional limited cruise missile strike by the Russians against Poland air bases/etc. where weapons are being funneled to Ukraine.

We are very very close to a major war right now. Ukraine no matter how tragic the situation does not warrant an all out war with the very probable use of nuclear weapons.
 

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Crazy? HELL YEAH! This is INSANE!

Making use of Europe to launch strikes into Russia, and if Russia hits back, these European countries will be sacrificial offerings, while US soil remains intact!

Russia has allies too. Iran and China are still around after all. Those strikes could escalate into much more than the conventional weaponry. Article 5 would be in play too and it could snowball.

No one knows the future though, this is just all speculative. NATO is avoiding military action for a reason though. I'm just keeping my eyes open.
200.gif

Been watching/reading this Russia story unfold for the last week.

I hate to say it but it looks like we are heading for some type of use of tactical nuclear weapons or other non conventional use of weapons in Ukraine which is crazy. Putin/Russia is being left no off ramps by the West, it looks like the West is pushing for complete tactical and a strategic defeat of the Russian army in Ukraine as well as complete economic ruin of the Russian state. This unstated goal is just as mad and crazy as what Putin himself is doing in Ukraine.
I'm no weapons expert but WION (India News) said a Vacuum Bomb (prohibited by Geneva Convention) has been used and cluster bombs, so you may be right.
 
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Black_Dragon43

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Maybe they expect capitulation weapons to work, as they did on Japan. That would be really terrible to see cities blow up and burned out. Russia has some massive conventional bombs and other stuff (thermobaric bombs) that would kill a lot of people. Ukraine might surrender unconditionally if they start losing cities.
How would Putin ever justify killing civilians to his own people? Sure, razing cities to the ground is possible and would “win” him the war, but extremely hard to justify internally in my opinion.
 

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I don’t dispute that the Western judicial system can be used to go after people and it is used in this manner. But can you not see the difference between the West and Russia? In Russia the judicial system is 100% going to sentence you if those in power want to. In the West, and I know people who have dealt with this, it’s not the case. They go after you, you can fight them and win. They will keep going after you with new things until they get you, that’s another story, but you can fight them and win. In a corrupt autocratic government you cannot fight and win.

Also, “letting you know who is in charge” doesn’t happen just because you’re wealthy in the West - you’ve got to be involved in areas of interest to the government.

What’s the difference? Kim Jong Un poisoned his uncle. Putin poisons his enemies.
My point was, in an authoritarian society like Russia, they don't have to frame you they can fix you.

Of course Russia will have more abuse of power than UK and U.S. But you are highlining an extreme cases of alleged poisoning and how influential opposition politicians got fixed by Putin and associates.

If you are a western businessman who moves to Russia to take advantage of some of the business opportunity there, and you are not interested in local politics, there is basically zero relevance on how high politics in Russia work.

Most people are concerned with cost of living, ease of doing business, business opportunity and personal safety and business related policies. Freedom in political participation is just one aspect of life. Russia is not hell and could even offer advantages that western countries don't have in other areas.

Most of the modern metrics in measuring "freedom" in the west has a strong social-democratic biases, that as long as you have open and free election with freedom of speech, even if you have extreme bureaucratic control, tax and penalty over monetary and business aspect of life, you still score perfect on "Freedom".
 
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How would Putin ever justify killing civilians to his own people? Sure, razing cities to the ground is possible and would “win” him the war, but extremely hard to justify internally in my opinion.
Exactly, this was sold to the Russian people as a peace keeping operation. Quite a peace keeping operation if Kyiv looks like Stalingrad circa 1943 after it and Russian casualties are in the tens of thousands. It really looks like Putin could get a Pyrrhic victory at best.

You have to wonder if they have really miscalculated this badly or is this the mother of all maskirovkas and they are up to something completely different?
 
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Antti

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"Yearly expansion" is a sarcastic remark.

Let's look at this:

IMG-20220301-125804.jpg


For every country that joins NATO, US will move their military equipment in, with rockets to launch into Russia from.

Now, look at the above map and compare it with the map below, which shows the number of US bases in NATO countries:

------_8c4vgt4o.jpg


Crazy? HELL YEAH! This is INSANE!

Making use of Europe to launch strikes into Russia, and if Russia hits back, these European countries will be sacrificial offerings, while US soil remains intact!
Those dots on the second map are not all bases. There are no NATO bases in Finland or Sweden for example, liaison offices or something like that maybe. The dot on sea between Finland and Sweden makes zero sense, perhaps it should be lower on Åland island..? The whole map looks quite sketchy..
 
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