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The Worldwide C0VlD-19 Coronavirus Pandemic Discussion Thread...

GIlman

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I’ve been trying to sort out this face mask thing for days. I think that masks do reduce spread, I've thought this and said it quite a bit. But on the flip side I’ve been trying to make sense what the “experts” in the government have been telling us.

I think part of it is maybe how doctors view things. For instance if condoms prevented 50% of HIV infections we would proclaim condoms are not effective in preventing the transmission of HIV. While this is true if we view effective as preventing a large majority, it is misleading if our real intent is to protect people as much as possible in the moment given the circumstances.

Anything >0% effective is still better than zero. This is an example of paying attention to the tree and losing site of the forest. Because any reduction at all has a meaningful impact on the population as a whole.

Let’s go back to our (err my) favorite thing R0. Let’s assume masks only block 33% of infections, medically speaking that is not effective for any one person, their risk is still enormous. But from a population perspective it is effective and meaningful. We will also assume R0 with no one wearing masks is 3. What is the R0 (rate of transmission) if everyone wears masks?

R0 would be reduced from 3 to 2. Both are still logarithmic (hockey stick growth) just 2 is much much much slower. Look at these example of R0 of 3 vs R0 of 2 over 5 cycles of transmission.

R0 of 3: 1, 3, 9, 27, 81, 243
R0 of 2: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32

Yeah 33% reduced risk of catching the infection wearing masks could result in a whopping order of magnitude difference in # infected.

Granted, I’m making up the number 33%, maybe the actual # is lower, much lower. Say 10%, or 5%, or 1%. But even at small numbers, the R0 decreases in a meaningful way and helps shift the curve down in a meaningful way. Also, maybe 33% in our example is actually low, and the actual effectiveness is higher, then the effect would be even more pronounced.

With a pandemic the goal is to get R0 so it’s less than one. At this point it means that each person who gets infected on average infects less than 1 other person. If each person infected infects less than one other person the infection actually starts to die out.

So wearing masks is a reasonable and effective way in helping to flatten the curve. Combined with other measures that also have an impact, we could likely reduce R0 below 1.

I’ll keep repeating, be careful of anything any expert says, especially in circumstances that are new with a lot of unknowns. They are guessing and passing those guesses off as facts. I probably have as much expertise as anyone on this forum in this one particular topic, but I would still advise caution in taking any assessment I am making as fact. They are just my best guesses. That’s why I’m trying to give the rational behind my thinking so you can look for errors or sources of bias.

EDIT: I calculated if you had a 3% effectiveness in masks preventing transmission. This would result in an expected R0 of 2.91. After 5 transmission cycles 208 would be infected vs 243 with no masks at all. You can see how quickly even small reductions in transmission results in greatly decreased # infected.

And the effect compounds more and more with each cycle of infection. At 7 cycles the difference is 1761 for mask wearers (3% effective) and 2187 for non mask wearers. The gap between the two just grows each cycle.
 
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WillHurtDontCare

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Some quotes:

"He said he has already started receiving calls from companies seeking guidance on whether a pandemic allows for contractual obligations to be voided."

"Allison Chock, Chief Investment Officer-US for Omni Bridgeway, says insurance-related disputes are likely to spike in the near term. Additionally, a nosedive by the economy likely would generate much more activity in the bankruptcy/insolvency space, she predicts."
 

biggeemac

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I was.

Posted about it a few times. Nobody cared until now.
Yes....I did as well. As tragic as this whole thing is, I believe that it will be meaningful for our "not my problem" culture that so much of our country has embraced. I am as much of a capitalist as the next person, but I hope that, at minimum, we get some sort of real universal healthcare out of this. I will pay more taxes if it means that me or one of my kids will have a viable way to visit a doctor, without going broke, if we were to fall into a situation where we couldn't provide for ourselves.

I am not particularly optimistic though. I know how politics works, and I know that its usually the campaign contributors that get their way.
 
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ChrisV

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Timmy C

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Yes....I did as well. As tragic as this whole thing is, I believe that it will be meaningful for our "not my problem" culture that so much of our country has embraced. I am as much of a capitalist as the next person, but I hope that, at minimum, we get some sort of real universal healthcare out of this. I will pay more taxes if it means that me or one of my kids will have a viable way to visit a doctor, without going broke, if we were to fall into a situation where we couldn't provide for ourselves.

I am not particularly optimistic though. I know how politics works, and I know that its usually the campaign contributors that get their way.


Universal healthcare I am 100 percent for myself.

It's one thing I am very grateful for living in Australia that our healthcare is top notch and doesn't come out of our own wallets every time we visit a doctor or go to hospital it's all covered.

I only pay for things such as physiotherapy, chiropractic, feet insoles, braces for your teeth,dental.

The most expensive is dental the others are relatively cheap, but even then it's nothing that sends you broke.
 

andrewsyc

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Mother Nature's last warning, meaning one that spreads with a low mortality rate. In a matter of time something could get out that has a mortality rate of 50%+

The worst type of contagion is one that has a long incubation period with high shedding and infectivity that is ultimately fatal.
Should be interesting what happens with China and their relationships. Their numbers are being repressed, last I read they have numbers that are truly higher than that of the United States from sources there.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpA7nf3sibM
 
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splok

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  • almost THREE TIMES more people died this year from seasonal flu than coronavirus.

I know you're just trying to give some context, but it's a good illustration of the two buckets that it looks like people have fallen into:
  • The people who think all of this is an overreaction are looking at the current numbers.
  • The people who are panicking are looking at the potential numbers.
The best spot is probably somewhere in the middle, but focusing on current numbers while the graph is still climbing doesn't look like sound logic to me. What are the chances that the flu kills 100x (1000?) the current number in the remainder of this year?

People aren't afraid of where it's at. They're afraid of where it's going.
 

lowtek

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Kak

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WillHurtDontCare

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Before coronavirus, nobody was depressed knowing that so many people were dying every day.

Out of 14,707,000 deaths this year so far, there are so many sad stories, many of which are never reported just because they happened in poor countries that didn't get a hashtag

@MTF I'd like to clarify from the get go that I am attacking the idea, not you. I understand why you'd say this and why others before you have said the same, but...

It's absurd to take responsibility for all of those people. You aren't God. Help who you can, and all the better if you can help a lot of people.

But never forget that there always has been and always will be plentiful and immense suffering in the world, and feeling this or that way will not change that fact.
 

MTF

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People aren't afraid of where it's at. They're afraid of where it's going.

I appreciate your response. Just so we stay on the same page, I'm not comparing it to the normal flu or downplaying its danger. I have no idea what's going to happen (how arrogant that would be?) other than to look at it from as many different perspectives as possible and try to think of a bigger picture. It's an extremely complex situation well beyond my intellectual capabilities.

Also, consider that the numbers I offered are also climbing as we're speaking. I posted my post 6 hours ago. The number of people who died of hunger TODAY is now more than double what it was 6 hours ago (it was over 8000 people 6 hours ago, it's almost 18,000 now).

Turns out I made a mistake as there are over 25,000 people who die of hunger each day (source: FAO : What the new figures on hunger mean), meaning that in just TWO days more people die of hunger than there are currently victims of coronavirus (without any claims that these numbers won't increase - just trying to put current numbers into perspective to help people understand that pre-coronavirus, many, many more people died each day with very few people ever thinking about it).

As for your buckets, I have mixed feelings, leaning towards the current restrictions (or what feels to me restrictions for the sake of restrictions without considering their effectiveness or how sustainable they are) turning out to be disastrous over the long term and causing much more suffering.

This is particularly concerning in poor overpopulated countries like India where imposing such restrictions makes no sense at all with people now forming even bigger crowds (example: Migrant workers sprayed with disinfectant in one Indian state) or causing even more danger as they migrate back to their villages (carrying with them the virus) hundreds of kilometers ON FOOT (example: Coronavirus update: A long walk home on empty stomachs for masked migrants) or stand in supermarket lines on top of each other, example:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_bUpN52Iyw


IMO, this is what happens when countries blindly implement restrictions that might work in one culture, or that might have worked for a rich country, or a country with low population density, or a country with great healthcare, but that are unrealistic and counterproductive in a different place with no resources, no infrastructure, too many people, too much poverty, etc.

But like I said, I'm as stupid as everyone else when it comes to forecasting so it's just my uninformed opinion (which I believe is the point of this discussion anyway since none of us can do anything about it anyway).

But never forget that there always has been and always will be plentiful and immense suffering in the world, and feeling this or that way will not change that fact.

Which was precisely the point of my post so we agree with each other 100%.
 

ChrisV

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@MTF

The "if we do nothing" numbers are around 6 million people dead in the United States alone. Across the globe it's expected to be in the hundreds of millions.

The curve for C0VlD-19 is exponential. When unchecked, the number of infections doubles about every 2 days.

That's the problem.

Gilman (from the forum, who's been posting here) is a physician does a podcast. I was a guest the other week and we broke down many of the numbers.

Many of us have been watching Italy because that shows us where we're potentially going. Their entire healthcare system practically collapsed and patients were being treated in hallways. Someone was dying in Italy every 4 minutes. They literally couldn't cremate bodies fast enough.

So that's kinda why you're seeing this reaction.
 
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Envision

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@MTF

The "if we do nothing" numbers are around 6 million people dead in the United States alone. Across the globe it's expected to be in the hundreds of millions.

The curve for C0VlD-19 is exponential. When unchecked, the number of infections doubles about every 2 days.

That's the problem.

Gilman (from the forum, who's been posting here) is a physician does a podcast. I was a guest the other week and we broke down many of the numbers.

Many of us have been watching Italy because that shows us where we're potentially going. Their entire healthcare system practically collapsed and patients were being treated in hallways. Someone was dying in Italy every 4 minutes. They literally couldn't cremate bodies fast enough.

So that's kinda why you're seeing this reaction.

I dont think anyone is downplaying the severity of the virus. What MTF is questioning is "Are we killing the patient to cure the disease?"

By shutting everything down, there are countless economic, health, etc impacts that people are either too ignorant to understand or they are so focused on the virus they stop paying attention to everything else.

47 Million people have been laid off. 47 million people potentially without healthcare anymore or on a time-clock until it runs out.

What happens when the hospitals stop getting paid for their services? What happens when people have no money to feed their kids? What happens when supplies, etc stop being produced. What happens when we have millions of people filing for bankruptcy 4-6 months from now?

The virus is undoubtedly bad. It's worse in Italy because of factors specific to their population. But the economic fallout has the potential to be significantly worse. The time to stop this was months ago, now we have to make some difficult choices as to how we want to move forward with it.
 

ChrisV

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Also @MTF People are worried about the economy simply because we have the luxury of worrying about the economy.

Italian Journalist Stefano Vergine:

"so the situation changed alot.. in the beginning the majority of the people were mostly worried about the economy. Now it's not like this any more. The most worrying thing is the health situation of the italian people."



This was 2 weeks ago. Now, New York City is starting to look like Italy did. After that other US Cities will start to look like New York City.

It's worse in Italy because of factors specific to their population.
We don't know that. Spain is quickly catching up to them. NYC may also be.
 

Bekit

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On Nov 18, 2019 the Wuhan Institute of Virology posted an open post doc position for research into long lived SARS and related corona viruses in bats.

About a month later an epidemic of corona virus breaks out, attributed to eating bat meat.

I'm sure this is just a coincidence and totally not evidence of an accidental release of a bioweapon.

Operations Dashboard for ArcGIS

Speculation aside, here's what we know. It's doubling every 30 hours or so, and that's just according to the officially acknowledged numbers. More disturbing, the number of fatalities is higher than the number of recoveries. What to make of that, I'm not certain, but it sure as hell doesn't look good. It means that of the resolved cases, half the people died and half recovered. How it will shake out in the coming weeks, we're just going to have to wait and see, but it sure doesn't look like a 3% fatality rate.

In case the posting gets scrubbed, here's a translated screen grab.

View attachment 29991

If you want to go further down this rabbit hole, here's a new video exploring this post a little deeper.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFCcSI0pU
 
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Envision

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Spain and Italy both have similar characteristics.

Older population
Families live together longer
Hypertension & Smoking is common

Take a step back from all the media you're consuming and look at this for what it is.

1% death rate. 99% with existing conditions/older

 

MTF

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I appreciate your thoughts, Chris. I have three questions regarding this if you don't mind. Again, just curiosity, not looking for a fight if it's not clear.

The curve for C0VlD-19 is exponential. When unchecked, the number of infections doubles about every 2 days.

Do you genuinely think that the measures taken in India and similar countries will change anything given extreme population density and the articles I mentioned in my post?

From my uninformed perspective it sure looks counterproductive at best and catastrophic at worst. People will just infect every single member of their (large) family.

I find it worrying that not much is being said about the struggles of the developing world since the crisis won't be over until the virus is wiped out worldwide.

Many of us have been watching Italy because that shows us where we're potentially going. Their entire healthcare system practically collapsed and patients were being treated in hallways. Someone was dying in Italy every 4 minutes. They literally couldn't cremate bodies fast enough.

Could you please comment this?


This part particularly:

The appalling situation in Italy is repeatedly used as a reference scenario. However, the true role of the virus in that country is completely unclear for many reasons – not only because points 3 and 4 above also apply here, but also because exceptional external factors exist which make these regions particularly vulnerable.

One of these factors is the increased air pollution in the north of Italy. According to WHO estimates, this situation, even without the virus, led to over 8,000 additional deaths per year in 2006 in the 13 largest cities in Italy alone. [7] The situation has not changed significantly since then. [8] Finally, it has also been shown that air pollution greatly increases the risk of viral lung diseases in very young and elderly people. [9]

Moreover, 27.4 percent of the particularly vulnerable population in this country live with young people, and in Spain as many as 33.5 percent. In Germany, the figure is only seven percent [10]. In addition, according to Prof. Dr. Reinhard Busse, head of the Department of Management in Health Care at the TU Berlin, Germany is significantly better equipped than Italy in terms of intensive care units – by a factor of about 2.5 [11].

My question: What efforts are being made to make the population aware of these elementary differences and to make people understand that scenarios like those in Italy or Spain are not realistic here?

And question number three: it's pretty clear that the majority of cases are never confirmed officially. There are thousands of cases reported in the US but how many more people have the virus but decide to stay at home? How many of them end up infecting their family members who continue going out? How many cases we don't know about? Can it really be controlled at this point, now that it's very likely there are thousands upon thousands of newly infected each day?

I'm in Barbados now and we're at 34 cases now (there's a very important address in a few hours so I'm worried they'll announce more cases). Social distancing and other restrictions make sense here because with so few cases and a small population it can still be halted. I don't think the same can be said of the US. It seems to me that as @Envision pointed out the time to stop it was a few months ago. Could you share your thoughts about it?

Again, I really appreciate your input and constructive tone. It's nice to be able to have a civil discussion about it.
 

ChrisV

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On Nov 18, 2019 the Wuhan Institute of Virology posted an open post doc position for research into long lived SARS and related corona viruses in bats.

About a month later an epidemic of corona virus breaks out, attributed to eating bat meat.

I'm sure this is just a coincidence and totally not evidence of an accidental release of a bioweapon.

Operations Dashboard for ArcGIS

Speculation aside, here's what we know. It's doubling every 30 hours or so, and that's just according to the officially acknowledged numbers. More disturbing, the number of fatalities is higher than the number of recoveries. What to make of that, I'm not certain, but it sure as hell doesn't look good. It means that of the resolved cases, half the people died and half recovered. How it will shake out in the coming weeks, we're just going to have to wait and see, but it sure doesn't look like a 3% fatality rate.
Honestly, I'm skeptical. They've been studying these viruses for years.

These outbreaks happen all the time when humans eat wild game.

The AIDS outbreak was caused by people eating monkeys.

People eating Bushmeat (wild game)has been responsible for more outbreaks than we can count.



AIDS, tuberculosis, leprosy, smallpox. The Original SARS-CoV-1.

I honestly think having a research facility there is simply a coincidence. They've been researching that stuff for years.
 
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ChrisV

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Do you genuinely think that the measures taken in India and similar countries will change anything given extreme population density and the articles I mentioned in my post?
Yes.

It will definitely mitigate (although not completely eliminate) much of the damage.

Could you please comment this?
It's not just Italy.

daily-covid-deaths-3-day-average.png

daily-covid-cases-3-day-average.png

Granted the US has bigger populations than Spain and Italy, but also they were affected by this before us.

covid-confirmed-cases-since-100th-case.png


Can it really be controlled at this point, now that it's very likely there are thousands upon thousands of newly infected each day?
Yes. It absolutely can.

Fully controlled? No. But can we mitigate this and come out with <100K deaths, as opposed to Holocaust numbers? Absolutely.

Our numbers aren't perfect and unfortunately we have to work with the data we have. In an ideal scenario EVERYONE would be tested and then we would have more accurate numbers, but it's not feasible right now. But even from our unperfected data we can see that there are some very disturbing trends on the horizon.


Also, projections from the IMHE - link

31759

Again that is with our current measures. Without our current measures the numbers look more like 4-6 million.
 

MTF

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Imagine a 7-day 24-hour curfew with EVERYTHING (including supermarkets) closed (you can only leave your house in case of a medical emergency). Now imagine that the shutdown is effective IMMEDIATELY with no prior warning whatsoever.

That's what has just happened in St. Lucia (13 official cases, population of almost 179,000 people).


If you had little or no food prior to the announcement, tough luck. 7 days of starvation here we go.

Effective immediate 24-hour curfews coming soon to a city near you?

Glad we have supplies for at least a couple of weeks as I'm worried Barbados will follow in their tracks.
 

ChickenHawk

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Now imagine that the shutdown is effective IMMEDIATELY with no prior warning whatsoever.
Probably they learned from other countries that if you give people any notice, they'll use that warning time to flee the area, further spreading the disease.
 
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biophase

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Without any context these numbers are tragic (and of course every death is). But world is filled with death and suffering every day; we just don't focus on it obsessively unless it's a global crisis and media reports it 24/7 (or much more painfully, until a loved one dies). Again, I need to emphasize it strongly that I'm not downplaying any of the deaths, but trying to offer a different, Stoic-influenced perspective that might help some people process what's going on.

Resignation and gloom won't help us right now. We can help others stay sane during the crisis through keeping calm, humor, hope, asking constructive questions and having constructive discussions (I love @GIlman's contributions in this thread), sharing good news (bad news equals high stress equals disrupted immune system - all the fear mongering of media can make even more people die), and reframing the current situation.

On the same page (worldometers.info) you can learn that while over 43,000 people died from coronavirus roughly from the beginning of this year (probably more given China's lies), there were over 14,707,000 deaths in total (so official coronavirus casualties are 0.29% of that number). Before coronavirus, nobody was depressed knowing that so many people were dying every day. We all just carried on with our lives, knowing full well that people were dying all around us but choosing not to dwell on it (the fact that most of the deaths didn't make any headlines helped).

Out of 14,707,000 deaths this year so far, there are so many sad stories, many of which are never reported just because they happened in poor countries that didn't get a hashtag (it's extremely sad, but that's what it often is - a tragedy in, say, Australia, like the recent bushfires nobody cares about anymore, is known globally while a much more disastrous situation in, say, Central African Republic, isn't even mentioned anywhere).

The uncomfortable reality is that people living in developed countries rarely, if ever, consider how much death and suffering happens all around the world. Until it happens to us, we don't care. Which is understandable - we wouldn't be able to live if we constantly pondered on this sad reality.

All the following data comes from worldometers.info:
  • In the last FIVE DAYS, more people died of HUNGER than coronavirus. The worst thing about it is that while people are dying of hunger, there are millions of people around the world carrying dozens or hundreds of excess pounds. None of those deaths make headlines because they rarely happen in rich countries.
  • FIVE TIMES more people died this year from water-related diseases than coronavirus. Another completely preventable death limited mostly to poor countries while rich countries are wasting obscene amounts of water.
  • almost THREE TIMES more people died this year from seasonal flu than coronavirus. But it's just the normal flu so who cares, right? It doesn't make headlines, either, yet it's just as tragic.
  • almost TWO TIMES more mothers died during birth this year than people died from coronavirus. Again, most common in poor countries, virtually none of those tragic deaths are reported.
  • over SIX TIMES more people committed suicide this year than people died from coronavirus. Another extremely sad and often preventable death that rarely gets reported.
Again, to emphasize, I'm obviously not attacking you, Andy (I hope it's clear I have TONS of respect for you). Just wanted to put the current situation in context because all I can see everywhere is doom and gloom constantly being heightened by social media, traditional media, and doomsday preppers. We don't need that; it's not constructive. We need to focus on solutions or ways to stay sane and healthy until it's over.

Again, not trying to downplay any deaths and tragedies (I DO KNOW first-hand that it's no consolation at all for a person who lost their loved one - this is only a perspective for those of us who are unscathed), but we wouldn't even notice a 0.3% rise in deaths this year if they happened in, say, Myanmar (how many people know that THREE TIMES more people died in the aftermath of 2008 Cyclone Nargis in Myanmar?).

Just to reiterate MTF’s point.

Did you know that animals die in a zoo everyday? I didn’t think about this until I started volunteering at a zoo. Each day there would be an emergency. It was rare to have a normal day where all you did was feed the animals and clean the cages.

If you have a couple thousand animals, you are going to have a medical issue or an animal die of old age daily. It’s just a law of numbers.

Can you imagine if your local zoo reported the death of each animal? It would look like that zoo is careless and can’t keep animals alive at all.
 

MTF

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Probably they learned from other countries that if you give people any notice, they'll use that warning time to flee the area, further spreading the disease.

You can't really flee anywhere on an island of 238 square miles (pretty much the same as Chicago).
 
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ChrisV

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Welp... looks like there might be a correlation to income

54872d4beab8ead1389000d8.jpeg

EUirRCqWsAA5k5y.png


even in comparison to population density, the poorer areas are getting hit harder:

31770
 

GIlman

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Imagine a 7-day 24-hour curfew with EVERYTHING (including supermarkets) closed (you can only leave your house in case of a medical emergency). Now imagine that the shutdown is effective IMMEDIATELY with no prior warning whatsoever.

That's what has just happened in St. Lucia (13 official cases, population of almost 179,000 people).


If you had little or no food prior to the announcement, tough luck. 7 days of starvation here we go.

Effective immediate 24-hour curfews coming soon to a city near you?

Glad we have supplies for at least a couple of weeks as I'm worried Barbados will follow in their tracks.

Politicians are not generally known for their intelligence, they skew more to the touchy feels sort, and this type tends to be emotionally reactive. Of course there are exceptions to this rule, but it’s not that far off.

7 days will do nothing. It’s a knee jerk reaction. Why do people prep, or as those that didn’t prep call it hoard. Because government is not predictable or rational - the amount of faith and trust I have on government is 0%.

When it comes to the virus there are two strategies. Prevention and mitigation. Prevention is only Possible when the numbers are extremely low. Once the cat is out of the bag and there are a tremendous number of people infected, at that point in time all you’re left with his mitigation which is quarantine. The US is in mitigation. The cat is way out of the bag here.

The entire purpose of a quarantine really is to beat back the numbers to the point that you can do prevention at scale again. When you were in the mitigation faze the only option is to isolate people from each other to prevent the rapid expansion of the infection in general.

Once a prolonged quarantine has been in effect for approximately four weeks, you are in the position to identify the people that are already infected and put them in isolation/treatment, then you try to re-enter the prevention phase by doing extensive testing, contact tracing, and quarantine of infected individuals.

At this point in time this is the only option the United States has, shut the sucker down, then try to identify the people that are infected, quarantine them, then let the population lose and try to implement preventative measures at that point in time moving forward. During the quarantine we also ramp up production of test supplies.

BTW, the us is failing at mitigation. Airplanes should have been shut down 2 weeks ago. People moving from NY to AZ and other places is simpler spreading the problem wider and making the end effect multiples enormously. Every day that goes by the tragedy that will unfold in the US simply increases in scale. They WILL shut down air travel, the delay is just going to exponentially amplify the pain to mitigate before we can put systems in place for prevention.
 
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Xeon

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I was acceptant of the idea of utilising Herd Immunity for the masses while protecting the vulnerable, either until everyone was clear or a vaccine could be released.

It seemed pretty clear who was at risk and so a sensible option, but having 3 people of 21 years and under, (with no underlying health problems, if we are to believe the reports) die in the UK recently has made me wonder. I wasn't too worried about my children contracting C0VlD-19 but I am now.

The herd immunity thing is a nutjob theory. Has there been solid proof that people will actually develop immunity (like chicken pox) after they get Covid19? If not, then those nations trying to go for "herd immunity" are gambling with the odds against them, and the consequences of which they'll never recover from.....
 

EVMaso

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The "China was responsible" and "The WHO is in league with China" headlines seem to be picking up steam.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFCcSI0pU
<- some random YouTuber, posted today, already has 400,000 views.

Florida Senator Rick Scott (R) has now gone on record saying China AND the World Health Organization need to be investigated.


And last night Tucker Carlson of Fox News blasted to his millions of viewers that the WHO helped China cover up how severe the COVID19 actually was, a major contributor to its worldwide spread.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1a4Pq5GQBc
 

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