When Your Friends/Family Say "That'll Never Work"

[Diane Kennedy]

I was rambling on with a post at my website and had a sudden epiphany. I had to post it here because I bet this happens to a lot of us.

Do you have a family member or friend who constantly complains about his life? And then, when you offer solutions, he has a million excuses on why it will never work? I know for me I don't have friends like that (they're out of my life by now) but I do have family like that (you don't get a lot of choice in your family...). For years, I came up with better and better solutions to their problems, only to get shot down with better and better excuses on why they were powerless in their lives.

I know the saying "Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It'll frustrate you and annoy the pig" but I guess I really never got how dangerous this action really is.

When you continually try to "help" a family member or friend who doesn't want to be helped, you are (1) discouraging yourself and (2) strengthening their ability to make excuses.

I think the discouragement to yourself is the most dangerous, especially in today's negative media world. You need to protect your attitude and your point of view. Hearing again and again why something won't work is like water on a rock. Eventually it might make a hole. Protect yourself.

The part that I just realized is that by continually questioning and challenging my family on their circumstances, they are now preparing excuses in advance. They are PRACTICING on how to not succeed.

Wow. I need to stop this whole pattern of behavior NOW.

 

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[G_Alexander]

Great insight Diane. I had a friend who was addicted to cocaine last year (I know that is not financially related) after a bunch of things happened in his life (lost g/f, father died, dog died). Obviously I strayed away from hanging out with him at all because he was being an ignorant party animal. The only reason I did hangout with him was to try and help him.

Sometimes people get so far gone, and so caught up in a charade because "they have it so hard" that they lose themselves. Whether it's about money problems, family, etc etc. I was helping him along as best I could but he would continually make the excuses that he needed to do it to help him forget and things like this.

We would fight and I would call him weak. It wasn't fun.

Finally, I just let him do whatever he wanted and I didn't talk to him for a few months. He got caught by the police with 3 grams of coke on him. The officer let him go because he is shipping out to Iraq for the Marines in July.

He has been coke free for 2 months now. Which is a start. It took him almost getting jail time to realize something was wrong with the picture. I will never surround myself with people like him, but I did take care of it as best I could.

You are completely correct though. Sometimes, you just have to drop the ball and let things work themselves out (provided it is a friend, not family).

-Alex

 

[rxcknrxll]

Ha! I would give you rep for this but I guess I've done that too much lately! No playing favorites on the Fastlane

Seriously though, this is right on. I remember this Bill Cosby episode where he's talking about how he loved listening to jazz, and he wanted to learn to play the drums when he was a kid. He went to get his first lesson, and the teacher's telling him to take one stick and strike the snare monotonously in an even tempo. Just keep an even tempo with the snare. Very, very boring.

Cosby's like "No way man. I want to play the drums like Max Roach (or whoever his favorite drummer was). I want to play crazy jazz rhythms." And of course his teacher knows that if he can't even keep a straight rhythm on one drum, it's never gonna happen.

Most people listen to the complex rhythms of jazz at some point in their lives. Maybe you like it, maybe you don't. But the point is that whether you like it or not, you don't understand what's going on sufficiently to be able to be able to reproduce what you've heard. You may think you get it, but you don't. It takes practice. It's the same with success in ANY field. People see the top performers, and they think it's luck or some crap like that. But the top performers know the facts...there's no magic to success.

People see a successful entrepreneur with buckets of cash, and they want that for themselves. And they think they have all kinds of ideas (and of course they're always right!) about what money is, how to get it...and of course the reason they don't have money is because they've been unlucky or any other number of excuses.

But the bottom line is that the reason they don't have what they want is because they either don't know enough about it or simply haven't put the work in. You can explain the concepts of wealth to someone till you're blue in the face, but I'd submit it's ALWAYS a waste of time to explain any higher level stuff to someone isn't on the same level as you. They've gotta do the basic first level stuff competently before you go on to lesson two. It's just how it works.

I guess my long response leads up to this: I don't think it's ever a waste of time to talk to your family or anyone about how to better themselves. You should always be willing to help. But give the right advice. Tell them to pound the snare with an even rhythm. Give them lesson one, and let it be what it is. If they follow your counsel there, then take them to lesson two.

That said, I'm trying to think of when this particular smiley would ever be applicable...

:smx5:.

LOL.

 

[Allthingznew]

More and more it seems that people view themselves as the exception, the rules apply to everyone else but them. It's a sunny day, but at their house it's overcast.

The irony for you Diane is that you have obviously had success, other people have had success because of heeding your advice, but that negative family member is the exception, yes you might have some great insights, but not for them, they're special. (Isn't it amazing people want to be special even if it's in a negative way?)

People are comfortable with the status quo even if they hate it because at least they know it. They can't change until they want to bad enough to overcome their own fears and will try to drag down anyone that threatens to upset the apple cart if they are not desperate for change. When you try to help them you are a threat to their status quo, no matter how miserable it may be.

Isn't it amazing just how powerful our minds are?

 

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[rxcknrxll]

More and more it seems that people view themselves as the exception, the rules apply to everyone else but them. It's a sunny day, but at their house it's overcast.

The irony for you Diane is that you have obviously had success, other people have had success because of heeding your advice, but that negative family member is the exception, yes you might have some great insights, but not for them, they're special. (Isn't it amazing people want to be special even if it's in a negative way?)

People are comfortable with the status quo even if they hate it because at least they know it. They can't change until they want to bad enough to overcome their own fears and will try to drag down anyone that threatens to upset the apple cart if they are not desperate for change. When you try to help them you are a threat to their status quo, no matter how miserable it may be.

Isn't it amazing just how powerful our minds are?

Right on man. I don't think it's a new phenomenon though.

 

[yveskleinsky]

but I guess I really never got how dangerous this action really is.

When you continually try to "help" a family member or friend who doesn't want to be helped, you are (1) discouraging yourself and (2) strengthening their ability to make excuses.

I think the discouragement to yourself is the most dangerous, especially in today's negative media world. You need to protect your attitude and your point of view. Hearing again and again why something won't work is like water on a rock. Eventually it might make a hole. Protect yourself.

The part that I just realized is that by continually questioning and challenging my family on their circumstances, they are now preparing excuses in advance. They are PRACTICING on how to not succeed.

Wow. I need to stop this whole pattern of behavior NOW.

How insightful. I have come to embrace the saying of "Don't teach a pig to sing..." but I had never really thought of giving advice to people who aren't ready to hear it actually empowers them to stay disempowered- and their disempowerment can start to erode our empowerment! (Dizzying statement, but boy is it ever true!)
++rep

 

[mtnman]

So true! I know this is a negative topic here, but there is something very important to learn here.

This is a classic example of a separation effect. This is the difference between doers and sayers, losers and winners, etc... Those who choose to focus on what they want rather than what they don't want, regardless of whether a solution is present or not, are people who breed perseverance.

How many times have you heard how persistent you have to be to be successful at anything? I don't know about you, but I've heard it from just about everyone who has accomplished anything. That in itself says something very powerful.

Back when I had adrenal malfunctions, everyday felt like the end of the world. It was at this rock bottom point that I learned just how important this is. You can choose to focus on how bad things are or you can acknowledge the circumstances, choose to focus on where you want to go, and you will find your way. "Or you can continue thinking what you've been thinking, and keep on getting what you've been getting." No one said anything about the word 'easy' however. You always have choice, no matter what!

These types of people (I have many in my family as well and it drives me nuts, but thanks to you guys, this forum, and many books I have made more of an effort to not allow them to drag my creative energy down, and now I see how important it really is) have choices just like you and I. There's nothing stopping their thoughts and decisions. Yeah, this or that may have burned a hole in their spirits or whatever, blah blah blah!

The fact is, we all have our trials, and they should stay individualized for that particular persons growth. These "downers", as I call them, choose not to see their own obstacles as a challenge. Instead, they look to everyone else and see what they are or are not doing/going through and compare.

This is a combination of laziness, weakness in one's self, and lack of purpose or drive to do a greater good. Fact is, if you don't find something in your life that you want to contribute to this world, you're not living your life. These downers just go through the motions, never willing to step up, personally, within themselves. In turn, they can't help anyone else because they won't help themselves. Can you say unfulfilled? Slightly!

 

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[Allthingznew]

I don't think it's a new phenomenon though.

I don't think it's new either, but it does seem more prevalent as our society as a whole becomes more and more selfish.

 

[G_Alexander]

I just feel like some people are plain ignorant pessimists.

I just got off the phone with my girlfriend (of two years), and she wants to go 40 minutes south to her friends house to party tonight. This means I have to drive for 1 hour 20 minutes (40 there, 40 back) just to go hangout with a bunch of people.

With gas prices the way they are right now ($4.30 for regular here in the Chicago suburbs), you would think she would be smarter than to waste it to do an activity you can do right around here in Chicago.

I said that she isn't being finacially conscious and we should be smarter. Her response was, "It's summer, we're young, we should be having fun." (Definitely not a fastlane response.)

I'm working 50 hours a week at a Law Firm at an hourly rate (because I'm 18) just so I can save to start my next big investments (real estate).

Way too many young kids weren't taught the importance of being financially independent.

-Alex

 

[AroundTheWorld]

This means I have to drive for 1 hour 20 minutes (40 there, 40 back) just to go hangout with a bunch of people.

You do?

 

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[G_Alexander]

You do?

I never said I was going :smxB:. I'll talk some sense into her.

I should have phrased it "This WOULD mean I would have to" (if I so choose to). haha

I'll be more careful with the wording next time. But yes, to remain on my dedicated path up the fastlane, I can't let anyone dictate what I do. And I especially would never let myself get tied down on any leashes :nono: :smx6:.

-Alex

 

[Bilgefisher]

I am really torn by this thread. You know that feeling like you just got kicked in the gut.

On one hand I want to agree completely. Yes, family can drag you down with their pessimism. Similar to Diane's story about the crab fishing in Oregon. To keep from getting mud bogged, we should avoid negative attitude. So to do that, I must avoid those conversations with family, stick to my plan and trudge ahead.

On the other hand, I want to get very defensive. This is my family, and by God if I have drag them kicking and screaming, I will. Even if its an act of futility.

....

Perhaps I missed the point on this one. By dragging along family that don't want to go, you only encourage them to develop better brakes, thus preventing yourself from going any faster.

I guess I'm going to be stubborn on this one. I'll keep dragging them along. Maybe, just maybe, I'll wear out those excuses of theirs and they'll take the path of least resistance. Mine.

Someone brought up the reference of water on a stone. I sit there and ask myself. Do I want to be the water or the stone? With family, its a pretty easy choice for me. That may mean I don't make it as quickly in the fastlane. I'll still make it, but I just have a few more hurdles to cross.


Thank you to the DK for another throught provoking thread. ++

 

[Russ H]

Kimber has some great thoughts on this.

We actually changed our PLAN to accommodate our family members who had entitlement/victim worldviews, based on some great insight we got from Kimber on the RD forums.

Where are ya, Kimber?

I'll share if she doesn't surface.

-Russ H.

 

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[AroundTheWorld]

Very interesting topic.

I've mentioned in various places on this forum before - the importance of understanding the difference between enabling and empowering. For many people, enabling feels like help and feels like love, but the true end result is more harm.

And yet... it can somehow feel like abandonment if you aren't "doing something" to help a loved one.

What to do?

For us, it is this:

Teach if they are ready to learn.
Let go of your need to teach and ... Be a (silent) role model if they are not (ready to learn).
Provide a safety net against poverty if the above two don't work.

 

[Bilgefisher]

Teach if they are ready to learn.
Let go of your need to teach and ... Be a (silent) role model if they are not (ready to learn).
Provide a safety net against poverty if the above two don't work.

Thank you ++

 

[Diane Kennedy]

I didn't want to comment too soon so that the thread could kind of go where it was going to go.

Bilgefisher, thank you for your comments. If I can give someone a different point of view or something that creates that gut check, that is the ultimate for me. It's interesting - I don't care so much whether someone agrees with me as much as I care that they sincerely consider and examine a topic.

I have spent countless sleepless nights worrying about one family member in particular. He is now married and has a son. Before it was "tough love" and my husband & I didn't give them money. (Forget trying to give them the tools - he has a million reasons on why he can't do anything...including getting a job) But now there is a baby. Neither parent works. The dad because no one "understands" him and although he's very very bright and has a degree from UCLA, he just can't keep a job. The mom because she absolutely lives for this baby and feels it is her God-given purpose on this planet to just wait for the baby to want something and then she immediately takes care of it. (No kidding, she doesn't shop, cook, clean the house - anything! She watches the child 24/7)

They live on hand outs from the family (both sides of the family have some business success) and there is a big family on both sides. I guess everybody just gives them a little and somehow they eke out a living. I wonder what the little boy (now 2 years old) is learning from his parent's behavior or are the grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins enough of an influence that he won't accept the parent's behavior as norm?

I could go on and on with stories of how we've tried to get them to do something different, but there was always an excuse. I guess we all have those stories.

 

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[AroundTheWorld]

It is tough with kids. We have family in a difficult situation with 4 young kids. Very hard to know what to do.


If you do not give, you worry about them going without food, basic health care, etc.
If you do give... you are helping the parents continue the lifestyle.

"Why change when I will be handed what I need?"

With our family, we actually did see some positive changes when most of the family stopped giving. The parents started taking more responsibility.

But, when it comes to the kids, it is so much more than their basic standard of living. What are the kids learning about entitlement? Will they grow up with the entitlement mentality if they are watching this go on in their family? What are they learning about work ethic? Success? Money?

We decided that one of the best things we can do is be a role model for the kids. My father grew up in a single parent poor household. He often talks about a "rich" uncle of his - - a man that was a role model for my dad. He really made a difference in my dads life. Probably more than he ever knew.

We decided to invite the kids to spend summers with us. Of course, the parent's haven't taken us up on that yet - - - but the door is always open.

 

[AroundTheWorld]

Another interesting insight I had a few years ago....

When you are trying to teach / help - - it is coming from a place of love in your heart.

When they are not ready to learn - - - it is received as something very different from love. It is a threat, or a critisism.

Eventually, it could come to a head and you have to choose...

What is more important - - - them receiving the lesson I have or
The relationship? Because continuing to "help" is only harming the relationship.

 

[kimberland]

Kimber has some great thoughts on this.

We actually changed our PLAN to accommodate our family members who had entitlement/victim worldviews, based on some great insight we got from Kimber on the RD forums.

Where are ya, Kimber?

I'll share if she doesn't surface.

-Russ H.

Wow, Russ, this post made my day.
'Course I can't remember the gem of wisdom I passed along that day
(I have no new ideas, everything I have, I got from someone else).
Maybe it is jet lag or something.
But wow, that I made a difference, wow.

 

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[Russ H]

Kimber, I pinged you w/a few hints.

Tried to find your original post on rd, and had no luck (PEERless, you listening?)

-Russ H.

 

[NerdSmasher]

But wow, that I made a difference, wow.

Don't you just love that feeling?

 

[Sid23]

The mom because she absolutely lives for this baby and feels it is her God-given purpose on this planet to just wait for the baby to want something and then she immediately takes care of it. (No kidding, she doesn't shop, cook, clean the house - anything! She watches the child 24/7)

They live on hand outs from the family (both sides of the family have some business success) and there is a big family on both sides. I guess everybody just gives them a little and somehow they eke out a living. I wonder what the little boy (now 2 years old) is learning from his parent's behavior or are the grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins enough of an influence that he won't accept the parent's behavior as norm?

I could go on and on with stories of how we've tried to get them to do something different, but there was always an excuse. I guess we all have those stories.

Poor kid...Most likely some severe "entitlement" issues in his future.

 

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[kimberland]

Thanks Russ!

Here's the quick summary.
I've given up trying to convert people like my Mom.
You can't change other people,
you can only change yourself.
They have to want to change
(truly, not simply talk about it).

Instead what I've done
is buy a house big enough for down and out guests
to crash in (for a limited time)
and set aside funds for non-investing loved ones such as my Mom.
People I feel are dependents.

My Mom is retiring in less than 3 years.
She doesn't own any assets (even has a car loan).
She has huge debt.
No retirement savings.

Since I started working,
I've set aside a certain amount per year
to help her in retirement.
I haven't told her about it
(hoping she'd invest for herself)
but the hubby and I know it is there.
It is currently enough to cover her housing costs plus some.

I don't factor that amount into my net worth
or our own wealth calculations.
Why?
Because I don't want to begrudge my Mom this money.
It isn't mine.
I'm holding it in trust.

 

[Russ H]

Thanks Kimber.

The whole idea of not trying to change your family, but accepting that they are who they are (and may 'hit you up' for money since they have none and you have much) is something Sharon and I struggled with (my family, not hers).

My family sees us as moneybags. Not rich, but crazy rolling in dough. The fact that my mom, bro, and dad all live better than we do (have nicer cars, eat better, have lots of toys, etc etc etc) is not the point, to them. It's that they don't have money, and we do.

They have never asked us for any $$$. But I worry . . .

I worry that someday, my brother will come to us, desperate, out of work, disabled, asking me to help feed his kids.

I worry that someday, my mom or dad will come to us, penniless, or perhaps owing hundreds of thousands of $$$, asking for help, knowing "we can afford it".

I worry that all of our hard work on our PLAN would be shot to crap in an instant, were we confronted with these very real possibilities.

I worried about these things, until I read a few of Kimber's posts about this.

Once we just accepted my family for who they are, and realized that we could not change their buying/spending/investing behaviors, we figured out a way to incorporate them into our PLAN.

We have a small stipend that each can live on-- not bazillions for health care expenses (they all have health insurance). But a monthly amount that would give them enough to squeak by.

Yes, they'd have to sell their houses, and new cars, and boats, and other toys.

But we'd give them enough so they could rent a small place back home, and have enough left over for food, heat, water, and light.

Cool thing is, we won't begrudge them this. This is what we can do for them.

If they don't want it, that's OK too.

Thing is, we don't allow THEM to dictate what we will do for them. We offer what we have planned for. They can take it, or leave it.

Important this is: We won't feel guilty and just give them everything we worked so hard for, only to see them p*ss it all away like everything else.

By incorporating a stipend for them into our PLAN, we allow our family members to be themselves, and get into messes, with the ability for us to help them-- WITHOUT losing our PLAN--and our future-- in the process.

Thanks again, Kimber. This really was a toughie for us until we read some of your posts on this.

-Russ H.

 

[Talkintoy]

I've done same for others... I've talked until i was blue and argue with families and friends... always thought noone would listen unless they have a reason to or life changing event that happens in thier life that they have to. Most people are not willing to change since they're content with the way things are with thier life. They don't see the wrong stuff that they're in. No plan ahead. There's people that lives day to day lives and there's people that plans for thier future lives. I always thought there's 3 types of people in the society.

People that's moved by the society/economy? (Do things you don't want)
People that moves with the society/economy? (Do things everyone does)
People that create the the society/economy? (Do things noones else does)

Which one are you?

 

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[kimberland]

My family sees us as moneybags. Not rich, but crazy rolling in dough. The fact that my mom, bro, and dad all live better than we do (have nicer cars, eat better, have lots of toys, etc etc etc) is not the point, to them. It's that they don't have money, and we do.

I TOTALLY hear you, Russ.
Forget the investments,
I am the only one of 6 siblings with a house.
Every single one of them has crashed at our house
at least once already
because they've been out of work
and couldn't afford rent.

The way I figure it,
I won't let them starve
or be homeless
but it is not my responsibility to buy big screens
or to pay for vacations.

Oh, and it isn't a coincidence
that we only have two tvs in the house.
One in our bedroom (with bunny ears)
and the other, the projector, not hooked up to cable.
We haven't a need for more
and it seems to push houseguests out the door faster.
I also have a scale of guest responsibilities
based on how long folks stay.

I prefer people not think of our house as a hotel.

 

[lightning]

A friend of mine that I rent a room to in our house is a perfect example of someone who just cant be helped (the “pig†if you would that Diane mentioned, who just cant and WONT learn to sing, lol). We are the same age, and this guy is a perfect example of what MJ has referred to as the “façade of wealthâ€. He graduated college last year and holds an entry level job, making about 32k a year. He is the typical young college grad, eager to show off his new success and jump into the “young executive†lifestyle. He drives a $35,000 fully loaded Hemi Charger sitting on 22†inch chrome rims and loaded with TV’s, playstation, etc. His car payment is $700 a month, roughly 40% of his TAKE-HOME pay, and the car was purchased with no money down. He has negative net-worth and in the past 6-months, has asked me and anyone else who would listen to co-sign several personal loans for him, so that he could pay off a staggering 9-grand in credit card debt. When confronted with "solutions" that could avoid him borrowing more money, he is quick to become a financial expert, and proceeds to tell me why a loan is the easiest way out of his situation. He does not get that his HABITS are what put him in this hole, and that if he dosent fix the habits, no short term "fix" will change his problems

Heres the funny part however; if you were to meet this guy, you’d SWEAR he was loaded. He spends more money on clothes, watches, sunglasses, Flatscreen TV’s, DVD’s, playstation games, mods for his car, etc. then some rappers do. He is a good looking guy and routinely draws girls in under this “façadeâ€, until they find out that the house he is living in is actually owned by his roommate, the same guy driving a 10-year old Mercury with 150k+ miles, despite earning a much larger salary every year..

In the past few months, he has made it quite obvious that despite the above mentioned habits, he looks up to me and is impressed at how much more I have accomplished in our 25 years. Quite a few times, he has swallowed his pride, and asked me what he should start doing in terms of investing, making more money, etc. so that he can buy his own place next year. I have told him the basics OVER and OVER again to try and get him started (get rid of his car and out of his ridiculous car payment, quit buying crap and start paying down debt, quit worrying about looking like a “baller†NOW and he may actually be one later, etc.). It has all fallen on deaf ears. The concept of delaying gratification is like a foreign language to him, and everyday I continue to watch his attempt at living a lifestyle far out of his league.

As others have said, some people just can’t be helped, and there’s only so much you can do to try.

 

[andviv]

In the past few months, he has made it quite obvious that despite the above mentioned habits, he looks up to me and is impressed at how much more I have accomplished in our 25 years.

Just call him out on the B.S.
Just answer: "if you are so impressed and you have seen how I've made it then how come you are not doing the same?"
Of course, he will find another excuse, but there is nothing you can do about that.
I think we all know lots of people like that.

 

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[Russ H]

I prefer people not think of our house as a hotel.

For better or worse, our house is a hotel (a Bed and Breakfast Inn).

Staying in one of our rooms means you are costing us money (our expenses right now are about $100,000 per month).

So asking someone to pay $200-300 a night doesn't seem so outlandish.

(we do have a guest room in the house we live in across the street, but in all honesty, w/ a little one, both of us use it to catch up on sleep!).

-Russ H.

 

[veli]

All great posts, and interesting reading. Although Im not "rich" moneywise, I have seen a lot of these things myself.
I dont know why, but people have often come to me for help and solutions. And like most people I like helping if I can. But, it does wear you down when you try to help and offer advice, only to see and experience that people do not want to do what you suggest (its also ok, cause its their free will to do so), or have an excuse ready. Sometimes these excuses are like listening to a broken record. Its sort of "naturally" and "instinctivly" built into their mind. Im sure we all have made mistakes at various parts of our lives, and still will. Hell, Ive done excuses myself, but after a while you see that its not getting you anywhere, so you stop and take responsibility. Trouble is most people dont realize it, or will not realize it. So yes, it does get tiring banging your head against the wall. So you are left with the option of continuing doing it, or stopping it. The latter being a good solution, cause really no matter what you do its likely it wont make a difference anyway.

And as for helping with money: While I was young I remember my parents constantly worrying about money. They both worked in a factory, and worked overtime to make ends meet. They covered their expenses and saved every little penny they could to send down to their motherland every month or two. They worked their a$$ off, and after a while people (not all) just sort of expected this money. As if they had deserved this financial aid on a regular basis. Unfortunatly my father passed away too early, but I remember talking with him several times about helping yourself before you help others. He did agree, and he too was not happy with the fact that people were not even thankful or spending the money wisely (house, saving, food etc), but he still continued doing it.
Ive helped people out with money too a couple of times. Its not that I dont want to do it, but right now my financial situation is as such as I need to sort myself out first, before I can start thinking about others.

This was supposed to be a short post, but turned out a bit longer. I guess what I wanted to say was that I agree with the views expressed here and those experiences certainly ring a bell.