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OFF-TOPIC They want to amend the IL constitution to eAT tHE rICH

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BizyDad

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"fair" tax. That word has been abused. "Fair" is whatever two consenting parties agree... stealing a person's wealth because you can't produce anything of value yourself isn't fair. Punishing someone for making the things that you value is just plain stupid.

We're seeing an inversion of morality.

When discussing taxation here are two more words that also get abused: stealing and punishing. It's also interesting that you redefined the word fair to suit your perspective. Your definition of the word doesn't actually exist.

The idea of a progressive tax has been bandied about since the days of the founding fathers and first implemented by Lincoln. It is a decidedly American innovation on governance. Now the land of Lincoln wants to pursue that policy further and people want to lose their minds and civility.

Let's keep in mind that this country was arguably greatest in the years after WWII (if you fall for the propoganda). Fun fact, that was also the period of our highest ever taxation rates as a country.

We seemed to come through that ok.

So let's not abuse history by suggesting that any of this debate is some new "inversion of morality".

No one calls the following ideas immoral or unfair.

"To whom much is given, much will be required".

"With greater power comes great responsibility".

Progressive taxation is founded on the same moral principle. Every form of taxation has its issues and consequences, and I enjoy hearing intelligent commentary on the pros and cons of those.

But this comment was just more propoganda to counter the other propoganda, and I just wanted to call it out as such. I don't believe in villifing either side of the debate as "immoral". That solves nothing. It only sews further division.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for higher taxes or less taxes here. I'm advocating for civility in our discourse and a greater awareness of historical context.
 

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thechosen1

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When discussing taxation here are two more words that also get abused: stealing and punishing. It's also interesting that you redefined the word fair to suit your perspective. Your definition of the word doesn't actually exist.

The idea of a progressive tax has been bandied about since the days of the founding fathers and first implemented by Lincoln. It is a decidedly American innovation on governance. Now the land of Lincoln wants to pursue that policy further and people want to lose their minds and civility.

Let's keep in mind that this country was arguably greatest in the years after WWII (if you fall for the propoganda). Fun fact, that was also the period of our highest ever taxation rates as a country.

We seemed to come through that ok.

So let's not abuse history by suggesting that any of this debate is some new "inversion of morality".

No one calls the following ideas immoral or unfair.

"To whom much is given, much will be required".

"With greater power comes great responsibility".

Progressive taxation is founded on the same moral principle. Every form of taxation has its issues and consequences, and I enjoy hearing intelligent commentary on the pros and cons of those.

But this comment was just more propoganda to counter the other propoganda, and I just wanted to call it out as such. I don't believe in villifing either side of the debate as "immoral". That solves nothing. It only sews further division.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for higher taxes or less taxes here. I'm advocating for civility in our discourse and a greater awareness of historical context.
wow. I disagree with everything you said. Appeal to tradition, with premises I don’t believe in (no, FDR abusing his presidential terms was not our greatest period in history - the generation who fought in the wars are just called the “greatest generation.”)

the quotes you used also are not commonly used to raise taxes. You’re using power/ responsibility to replace the common communist phrase of “from each according to his ability to each according to his need,” which, if you actually talk to people, many disagree with. It’s a terrible way to build an economy because it’s designed to cannibalize itself.

Anyway, we can politely disagree, just thought I would point out your assumptions about what others believe are wrong...

If you want to know what the other side believes, ask them.

dont tell them what they believe.
 

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Progressive taxation is founded on the same moral principle.

I don't believe in villifing either side of the debate as "immoral". That solves nothing. It only sews further division.

It isn't the politest way to discuss the issue, but it is the most accurate.

Seeming as you have said this is a moral issue... and given that we have two diametric opinions, one must be moral and the other immoral... why shy away from making a judgement?

Other things that sow division: Straw man arguments, ad hominem. Random statements with no reasoning. Etc.
 

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We all have a crush on Hank Rearden, duh. In my mind he looks like Michael Fassbender and Jessica Chastain is Dagny Taggart.
I listened to the autobiography of Henry Ford a bit ago, and am now working my way through JD Rockefeller. Its almost as if Atlas Shrugged was written about these various titans of industry back then...
 

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I listened to the autobiography of Henry Ford a bit ago, and am now working my way through JD Rockefeller. Its almost as if Atlas Shrugged was written about these various titans of industry back then...

Have you watched "The Men Who Built America"? It's a docu-series from The History Channel, from like... 2014 or so? If you haven't you're in for a treat.
 
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Jon L

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Have you watched "The Men Who Built America"? It's a docu-series from The History Channel, from like... 2014 or so? If you haven't you're in for a treat.
I did...that was awesome. So cool to see the perspective they had. It was like a giant chess board, and they were all thinking 10 steps ahead.
 
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WabiSabi

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Let's keep in mind that this country was arguably greatest in the years after WWII (if you fall for the propoganda). Fun fact, that was also the period of our highest ever taxation rates as a country.

The west was at it's peak sometime pre-WWII, The U.S was just the last man standing. Pretty easy to compete when half of Europe is a smoking crater and the other half is mismanaged by communists.
 

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Hey it's not THAT bad. Look Tim Hortons is still open!
 

Saavedra

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When discussing taxation here are two more words that also get abused: stealing and punishing. It's also interesting that you redefined the word fair to suit your perspective. Your definition of the word doesn't actually exist.

The idea of a progressive tax has been bandied about since the days of the founding fathers and first implemented by Lincoln. It is a decidedly American innovation on governance. Now the land of Lincoln wants to pursue that policy further and people want to lose their minds and civility.

Let's keep in mind that this country was arguably greatest in the years after WWII (if you fall for the propoganda). Fun fact, that was also the period of our highest ever taxation rates as a country.

We seemed to come through that ok.

So let's not abuse history by suggesting that any of this debate is some new "inversion of morality".

No one calls the following ideas immoral or unfair.

"To whom much is given, much will be required".

"With greater power comes great responsibility".

Progressive taxation is founded on the same moral principle. Every form of taxation has its issues and consequences, and I enjoy hearing intelligent commentary on the pros and cons of those.

But this comment was just more propoganda to counter the other propoganda, and I just wanted to call it out as such. I don't believe in villifing either side of the debate as "immoral". That solves nothing. It only sews further division.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for higher taxes or less taxes here. I'm advocating for civility in our discourse and a greater awareness of historical context.

Taxation is theft. If you don't pay taxes, they violently put you in jail. By force. With guns. How is that moral.
 

WabiSabi

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Taxation is theft. If you don't pay taxes, they violently put you in jail. By force. With guns. How is that moral.

Because you (de jure) benefit from the protection and laws of the state. Human beings without government would kill, and steal from each other indiscriminately. Not many people would willingly live in an area where no rules exist. Human nature is brutal, violent, and self destructive. If some viking came around burned my house, and jacked my stuff I'd pay a dude (the state) to protect my property.

The problem with the state these days is the social contract (de facto) is being broken on many levels. It's losing it's legitimacy through incompetence and mismanagement, in some ways like a failed state.

It'd be nice if we didn't have to pay taxes but it's a necessary evil. I have a bigger problem with government incompetence.
 

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BizyDad

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wow. I disagree with everything you said. Appeal to tradition, with premises I don’t believe in (no, FDR abusing his presidential terms was not our greatest period in history - the generation who fought in the wars are just called the “greatest generation.”)

the quotes you used also are not commonly used to raise taxes. You’re using power/ responsibility to replace the common communist phrase of “from each according to his ability to each according to his need,” which, if you actually talk to people, many disagree with. It’s a terrible way to build an economy because it’s designed to cannibalize itself.

Anyway, we can politely disagree, just thought I would point out your assumptions about what others believe are wrong...

If you want to know what the other side believes, ask them.

dont tell them what they believe.

Respectfully, I think you misunderstood everything I said.

I'm not telling anyone what they believe. I am not advocating for higher or lower taxes. I apparently have to repeat that several times, since two people think I am advocating for higher taxes and want to bait me into that discussion.

I am simply asking for more civility and a greater understanding of historical context so we don't revert to histrionics.

More history. Less histrionics. How can anyone disagree with that?

I am not "the other side". I am not saying "more taxes is good". I am saying that calling greater taxes "immoral" or "theft" isn't factual or necessary.

The quotes I used were about morality. I quoted the Bible and Spiderman, so it not like I was espousing any grand economic theory.

I deliberately chose a religious and secular conveyance of American morals. If these moral principles sound similar to the governing beliefs of Karl Marx (or Myles Standish or French Revolutionaries of the late 1700's, etc), perhaps it is because they based their governing systems on older moral principles.

See what I mean about history? I think it's really cool. There's a lot to how we got here. This stuff predates Marx. And I didn't bring up Marx, that was a straw man fallacy.

Just to continue the historical chat, FDR didn't begin the trend of dramatically raising taxes. We upped the top tax bracket in 1933, a year prior to FDR. He certainly continued the trend, and it far outlasted his presidency. Top tax rate was above 60% from 1933-1981 and it didn't drop under 50% until 1987.

That is over 50 years of generally prosperous times in an era of much higher taxation.

So that wasn't an appeal to authority. That was stating historical trends. We're in a sad state when historical facts are dismissed as appeals to authority.

If you want to examine those economic principles you believe so fervently, perhaps you can explain this to me.

Here's a chart of US GDP United States GDP Annual Growth Rate | 1948-2020 Data | 2021-2022 Forecast

We really haven't been able to grow GDP nearly as well in this era of lower taxes. And the lower taxes go, the lower growth rate goes. Now maybe that's a chicken and egg discussion, and I'm not suggesting a causal relationship between the two.

But I would certainly expect lower taxes to show a higher GDP growth rate, based on the economic theories bandied about by my conservative friends. Why hasn't it?

What has grown in leaps and bounds is the number of millionaires in this country. It is easier to become a millionaire here than almost anywhere in the world and it has gotten dramatically easier since Reagan.

So if we the people want rules that benefit individual enrichment, then sure, lower taxes is an effective policy to stimulate wealth accumulation. That's pretty obvious.

I recognize that saying anything doesn't fall into lockstep with "low taxes doctrine" on the "Millionaire Fastlane Forum" is likely akin to sacrilege, which is probably why people want to argue.

But I won't argue with someone who says that's the kind of country they want to live in because that's just an argument about opinion, and, fun fact, I too want a country that makes it easier to become a millionaire. I feel thankful and blessed to live here.

Just don't tell me raising taxes are 100% always stifling to overall economic growth. The data doesn't agree. I believe the truth is much much more nuanced than that.

For example, I think its funny that people who complain higher taxes killed California conveniently forget that lower taxes crushed Kansas. And they ignore than until the current downturn, California had grown to become the fourth or fifth largest economy in the world. It sure took a long time for higher taxes to "kill California". What a poorly run state with such poor policies. I wonder if it will ever recover?

If you ask me my opinion, I'd say both sides have good points, and I don't know the correct level of taxation for a society. But I also think it's self-evident that taxation is necessary for the functioning of a society. It's just that there is such a thing as too much taxation, and too little taxation.

So I argue against American socialists who would balloon our tax level, and I argue against American libertarians who want to revert back to just a system of tariffs to fund the government.

I recognize my words are not commonly used to defend one side or another, so I'll take that comment as a compliment.

I'd like to think that's in part because I think for myself and I don't fit neatly in boxes you may be used to. I strive to listen to the best points from all sides. I wish more people would do that.

Instead I feel like some people are just trying to fit me in a box. I find it ironic that you're advocating for better listening.

Seeming as you have said this is a moral issue... and given that we have two diametric opinions, one must be moral and the other immoral... why shy away from making a judgement?

Huh? I did not make it a moral issue. I am responding to your comment about morality.

We're seeing an inversion of morality.

My point is it shouldn't be a moral issue.

To answer your question about judgement, judgement is fine. I don't have a problem with it. Calling one economic tax policy better or worse or more or less effective is one thing. (And again I am not advocating either way so please don't put words in my mouth).

But calling it immoral?

You make it sound so simple. Like it's obvious there's a right and wrong.

Based on what system of morality? Secular morality? The concept of "greatest good for greatest number"? I'll refer you to the chart above. Or since "greatest good" shouldn't be a purely economic discussion, perhaps we look at the list of happiest countries on earth and examine what their societal & economic systems look like? Nah, that wouldn't be a good idea, would it?

Alternatively, I'm a Christian and the Bible says to pay your taxes. Surely Jesus Christ wouldn't advocate something immoral. Christ obviously doesn't think taxation is theft. Or punishment.

See we can go round and round "debating" the morality of it. What does that get us? And I don't want to lose sight of the fact that now I'm crossing the line into a religious discussion, and that's against the rules here. So I'll stop.

And that is my point.

A discussion about taxation shouldn't turn into a religious/moral debate. "The rich are selfish" is just as useless an attack as "Taxation is theft" and as such, I argue against my "lefty" friends just as vigorously as my "righty" friends.

We should stop painting those who we disagree with as evil vile people living little lives who can't comprehend or fathom the genius/wisdom of (insert your chosen group/belief/political party/religion/doctrine here).

Maybe I'm just being idealistic.

Other things that sow division: Straw man arguments, ad hominem. Random statements with no reasoning. Etc.

You have a good point. I don't think I did those things, but I get what you're saying. I recognize this post isn't terribly effective at winning hearts and minds.

It's a conundrum. I'm not sure how to confront something I see as wrong in a manner that will be accepted easily. I'm working on it.

For me, it's easy to accept criticism and say, you're right. You have a good point. I wish more people could admit when they hear a good counterpoint.

Taxation is theft. If you don't pay taxes, they violently put you in jail. By force. With guns. How is that moral.

They don't do that here in the United States. I don't want to comment on the morality of laws in other countries.

I'll make an analogy. To drive a car here you need to get a license. If you drive without a license you are in the wrong. Nobody makes you drive. Nobody tells you you have to get a car. It's a choice you make to theoretically improve your life. It is a privilege afforded to you by the society you live in. If you want to take part in the road system, you have to get a license.

To earn money here, you have to pay your taxes. If you earn money and don't pay your taxes, you are in the wrong. Nobody says you have to earn money. You can be a mountain man living off the land somewhere in the wild and see what you're really made of. That's still allowed in this country. You can go be a monk in a monastery and pursue the riches of the spirit. Getting a job or starting a business is a choice you make to theoretically improve your life. It is a privilege afforded to you by the societal system you live in. So if you want to take part in the economic system of your society, you have to pay your taxes.

If you live in a weak society, these kind of privileges and opportunities (roads, jobs, businesses) are harder to come by. And a great way to weaken the society is to reduce the tax base. I've had relatives who live in weaker societies get actually kidnapped and held for ransom. That's taking someone's freedom. That's theft. I don't want to live in a weak society, so I tend to argue against the "no tax" or "taxation is theft" types.

People who compare taxation to theft, to me, sound like teenagers complaining about a curfew while they're living under their parent's roof. "It's not fair! I'm my own person. You are taking away my freedoms!" It's petulant, impractical, and turns a blind eye to the reality of what's actually going on.

These are the rules. Everyone knows the rules. Government and parents will enforce the rules. Ostensibly, the goal of both is the greater good, but some parents and governments are better than others at accomplishing this. If you don't agree to the rules, go build your own society or house somewhere. Just don't complain about the consequences for being a rule breaker.

That said, personally I still won't call the rule breaker "immoral" or the rule enforcer "moral".

Just because I don't agree "taxation is theft" doesn't mean I think the person who believes these things is moral or immoral.

The west was at it's peak sometime pre-WWII, The U.S was just the last man standing. Pretty easy to compete when half of Europe is a smoking crater and the other half is mismanaged by communists.

True. Which is why I called that argument propaganda.

However, I'd argue the west, or at least the US, had a greater peak in the 1990's-2000's. I mean, pre WWII is WWI. Trench warefare. Ugh. And the industrial period was just a dirty dirty place. Life expectancy was poor. Terrible medicine.

And no air conditioning. Yuck. The no air conditioning thing really kills it for me.

And I think the music of the 1990's was better than the 1890's. A golden age...

(I think the best 1890s has to offer is Sousa. Cobain>Sousa. At least the early 1900s had the start of Berlin.)
 

Saavedra

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Because you (de jure) benefit from the protection and laws of the state. Human beings without government would kill, and steal from each other indiscriminately.

You mean like in a state sanctioned war? or a state sanctioned mass murder? carried out by state sanctioned humans full of social contract powers through the magic of militarism??

you wouldn't steal from your neighbor yourself. just get to an agreement with a bunch of socially contracted people, make up a majority of a random, big enough group of people, and voila, it is fine to steal from your neighbor now.

i didnt sign no social contract
 

MJ DeMarco

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Well, I just learned today that Arizona has its own "soak the rich" plan.

If Proposition 208 passes in Arizona it will be my last year as having Arizona as my primary residence. I will move. Prop 208 is basically a tax on the rich, compliments of the socialist idiots that have moved here, and the teacher's unions. If it passes, it will make Arizona one of the highest taxed states in the country, at least for people like me.

If it passes, I leave.

It is that simple.

IMG_1343.JPG
 

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So uh.. I just got this as a pamphlet in the mail, they want to change the flat rate income tax in IL to be able to randomly assign a tax rate to "the wealthy" and the arguments "pro-change" they give....... it's like Bernie wrote it. Idk, you be the judge. Somewhere in a deep forest a bald eagle loses a feather (?)
@Kak



When I read about this a few weeks ago. It was in an article that said it would pave the way to taxing retirement income. Did you know that Illinois doesn’t tax retirement income? It’s one of a few states that don’t. So people living there save 5% a year. If that goes away you’ll see many more older people leaving as if they needed another reason.
 

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Well, I just learned today that Arizona has its own "soak the rich" plan.

If Proposition 208 passes in Arizona it will be my last year as having Arizona as my primary residence. I will move. Prop 208 is basically a tax on the rich, compliments of the socialist idiots that have moved here, and the teacher's unions. If it passes, it will make Arizona one of the highest taxed states in the country, at least for people like me.

If it passes, I leave.

It is that simple.

View attachment 34957

Where would you go? Nevada? Wyoming? Texas?
 

MJ DeMarco

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Where would you go? Nevada? Wyoming? Texas?

Coincidentally, I've already been looking at all those places before I even knew about the Prop, even Washington and South Dakota. This Prop 208 thing actually has made it quite a possibility. My home in Sedona will be my secondary residence, I'll take primary elsewhere. I will have no hesitation in leaving since we've already been discussing it.
 

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"Fair" is losing your wealth, liberty and life if you won't fight for it.

Imagine how awful the world would be if sickly prey animals just lived forever, reproducing sickly children ad nauseam, instead of getting ripped apart and eaten alive by hungry predators while the herd indifferently moves on.
 

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Now maybe that's a chicken and egg discussion, and I'm not suggesting a causal relationship between the two.
There is solution to egg-chicken problem.
If you have something to tax, you tax it, if you don't then you don't.

In other words if people start getting richer there is a opportunity to tax somebody. If everyone would be poor taxing wouldn't change a thing - most would be unemployed.

100% tax on 0 income is still 0.

You wrote about hearts and minds - i'm up for good discussion!

EDIT: it would be funny to know exactly how much raised taxes bring to table. I mean is it only PITA for rich, feel-good for poor and a way to get to cabinet?
 

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What doesn't help is that the average person has no clue how taxation works at the corporate level.

Your average person, and literally EVERYONE I've talked to about the subject, thinks that companies pay "zero tax" because "loopholes".

They really don't like it when you explain that Amazon has paid literally billions in tax, it just happens to not SPECIFICALLY be "income tax". By the time I start explaining how you can't tax profit if there is none they've already moved onto other arguments, moved the goal posts, or simply said "well it's still not right".

What's worse is that if you google "how much tax does (company) pay", you get 99% of articles explaining that they paid zero, how immoral it is, how much they earned vs the zero they paid, etc... You practically have to look at their damn year end finance report to find the amounts they've paid in other taxes. Nobody is reporting on how much they DID pay, just how much they DIDN'T, despite that being a number that doesn't matter because it didn't apply!

Not to mention that anything the owner, managers, or employees bring home is taxed, every purchase the company makes is taxed, all real estate the company owns is taxed, etc, etc, etc...

Companies pay tax. A lot of it. Just not "income tax". Because you can't pay tax on $0. It's really not hard to grasp.

But all the media and misconception leaves people thinking that rich people and companies pay literally nothing in tax. This makes it easier to support silly "tax the rich" concepts. Education in this area really needs to be increased.
 

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Coincidentally, I've already been looking at all those places before I even knew about the Prop, even Washington and South Dakota. This Prop 208 thing actually has made it quite a possibility. My home in Sedona will be my secondary residence, I'll take primary elsewhere. I will have no hesitation in leaving since we've already been discussing it.

Wow, Californians move to AZ in droves, And they bring their socialist policies with them. Whoda thunk.

I thought it was silly that people were worried that people would bring their socialist policies with them to Arizona. Now not so much. It seems like Montana, the Dakotas, Wyoming etc will be the last frontier for American values.

When these people vote for this shit, Why do they not understand that wealthy people have the means and connections to just pick up and leave, and take their money and tax revenue with them? And if things got so bad in America, they would move to another country. It's like the cat/tuna analogy. These people are trying to chase after the rich, and capture them, forcing them to pay higher taxes. But they can't be caught, they can only be attracted at their own will, Ex. Puerto Rico. Low taxes have attracted a lot of wealthy people.
 

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What doesn't help is that the average person has no clue how taxation works at the corporate level.

Your average person, and literally EVERYONE I've talked to about the subject, thinks that companies pay "zero tax" because "loopholes".

They really don't like it when you explain that Amazon has paid literally billions in tax, it just happens to not SPECIFICALLY be "income tax". By the time I start explaining how you can't tax profit if there is none they've already moved onto other arguments, moved the goal posts, or simply said "well it's still not right".

What's worse is that if you google "how much tax does (company) pay", you get 99% of articles explaining that they paid zero, how immoral it is, how much they earned vs the zero they paid, etc... You practically have to look at their damn year end finance report to find the amounts they've paid in other taxes. Nobody is reporting on how much they DID pay, just how much they DIDN'T, despite that being a number that doesn't matter because it didn't apply!

Not to mention that anything the owner, managers, or employees bring home is taxed, every purchase the company makes is taxed, all real estate the company owns is taxed, etc, etc, etc...

Companies pay tax. A lot of it. Just not "income tax". Because you can't pay tax on $0. It's really not hard to grasp.

But all the media and misconception leaves people thinking that rich people and companies pay literally nothing in tax. This makes it easier to support silly "tax the rich" concepts. Education in this area really needs to be increased.

I don't like to get conspiratorial, But I don't think "the system" (School, government) will ever teach the general pop. how taxes work. 1. Because it's boring and convoluted 2. Because if you stay stupid and repeat the "Tax the rich!" bromide, Then politicians can campaign on the basis of increasing taxes on those mean old business owners. Keep people distracted and purposely don't educate them on it.
 

Cyberthal

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> When these people vote for this shit, Why do they not understand that wealthy people have the means and connections to just pick up and leave, and take their money and tax revenue with them?

They target is the middle class, because they're the system's easy prey. Suckers who can't move. "Tax the rich" is a distraction.
 

Kid

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They target is the middle class, because they're the system's easy prey.
And its much more tangible. You've seen someone who rides better car or has bigger house. If they would say "Tax billionaires" everybody would go "Huh?"
 

Cyberthal

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The interesting thing is that the white working class has moved out the Democrat (inner) party and into the target zone of "middle class", attacked from above and below by the high-low alliance of elites and lower class.

They're certainly rich enough for it, by global and historical standards. Down with the petit bourgeoisie!

I like to think that they've finally achieved the American dream. You know your freedom is truly excessive when the machine of tyranny hunts you down like the former free tribes of North America. Envy is the unstoppable political force; idiocy is the immovable political object.

Despite the technology-adjusted decline in living standards I feel like someone should congratulate these guys for making it into the middle class. And they didn't even have to go to college!
 

MJ DeMarco

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When I first read this thread, my first thought was, "Whew, glad I live in Arizona, that would never happen here."

Boy was I wrong.

Wow, Californians move to AZ in droves, And they bring their socialist policies with them. Whoda thunk.

I've been in AZ for 23 years. Pretty much loved every year.

However this year something changed. We noticed it was the first year ever in 2+ decades that we considered to leave, at least the metro area. Between the traffic, the air quality, the shift in politics, the CV19 overreach, we started discussing it. The state has been infected with same disease that is killing Texas, and that disease is called California. And get this, our governor, senate, and house are controlled by Republicans, so this isn't just about left-wing ideology. And now after learning of this prop, the writing is on the wall, at least if it passes. I found it of a bit "prophetic" (and shocking) that such a proposition even made it to the ballot-- Arizona tends to stop these ridiculous things from making it to the ballot -- but insightful that our ideas about leaving were not unfounded.

I left Chicago 23 years ago for the same freaking reason, aside from lack of sunshine -- and it was the best decision I ever made in my life. At this point, I'm not even sure how Arizona can survive when it comes to the water supply. I live in a farming type area with horses, chickens and even cattle. When I leave my neighborhood, it's bumper to bumper traffic. It's a bit of an odd mix to feel like you're in the country, but gridlock is everywhere as soon as you leave the fields behind.

The good news is, I expect the proposition to be defeated. I have faith that Arizonians are smart and not stupid enough to fall for the "it's for the children" narrative. I refuse to be forced to pay tens of thousands of dollars for an "education system" which teaches children that people like me, are the enemy -- and I should be punished accordingly. It's like being forced to fund the gallows for which I will be hung.

Nope.

I'll move to Costa Rica or the middle of Montana before I willingly accept that BS. And I'll be gloriously happy with the decision -- when you have a cancerous tumor, you remove it...

...in this case, you leave it.
 

WabiSabi

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I don't like to get conspiratorial, But I don't think "the system" (School, government) will ever teach the general pop.

This. The U.S school system is so laughably bad; it's a stretch to even call it education at this point. I don't think it's conspiracy, I think it's just incompetence. Socialism inherently appeals to the ignorant, uneducated and lower class.

There's never been a better time for privatized education. We have the technology and teachers. Use the best teachers, videos, graphics, powerpoints, worksheets. Why settle for mediocre and bloated school systems? Anyone with an internet connection should have access to a QUALITY education, irrespective of where they live.

Things started to go downhill when we stopped following the Greek and Roman models and those that forget history are doomed to repeat it.
 

ryandoak

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Well personally I won't be affected. It starts at 250k/yr income. *cries in poor* but I still think even if they increase their revenue they're just gonna suck it all up in useless government spending. The amendment doesn't even say something like "fine, but this difference HAS go straight to underserved neighborhoods schools". It just gives them the power to put an arbitrary rate for higher earners but no accountability or control for it.
Honestly, I don't think it'll bring in much more revenue. With a threshold of $250k, it just acts as more of a confiscatory tax.
 
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