The Ukraine War, implications, outcome?

[Xeon]

Chechen 'hunters' unleashed to detain - or kill - Kyiv officials

A squad of Chechen special forces 'hunters' (pictured) has been unleashed in Ukraine to detain or kill a set of specific Ukrainian officials.

www.google.com

 

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[Simon Angel]

It appears that the best way to divide people is to have them talk war.

What I find the most mind-boggling, however, is how so many here are so certain they know what's "really" going on and defend their stances vehemently. The truth is, we don't know shit.

The best thing we can do, in my opinion, is to observe:

Ukrainian news and reporters:

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent

https://twitter.com/lapatina_

American war reporter based in Ukraine:

https://twitter.com/nolanwpeterson

Russian news:

Вести.Ru: новости, видео и фото дня

Новости дня от Вести.Ru, интервью, репортажи, фото и видео, новости Москвы и регионов России, новости экономики, погода

www.vesti.ru

RT - Breaking News, Russia News, World News and Video

RT is the first Russian 24/7 English-language news channel which brings the Russian view on global news.

www.rt.com

CNN coverage:

Russia invades Ukraine: Live updates

Russian President Vladimir Putin announced a military operation in Ukraine early Thursday. US President Joe Biden announced new "strong" sanctions on Russia and limitations on exports as he condemned Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Follow here for live news updates from the ground in Ukraine.

edition.cnn.com

/r/CombatFootage (NSFW):

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

These are all the sources I'm following at the moment. If anyone has any other good ones, please share.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Putin consistently has 60 percent approval rating

Well, it's not very surprising, he literarily owns all the Russian media, and has dismantled stations that oppose him, plus imprisoned dissenters, killed them, or forced them into exile (like chess player Kasparov). All the news your average Russian hears is Putin's narrative. The traditional Russian people have also, always liked the idea of a "vozhd" = supreme leader who will take care of them. Russia has never been a proper democracy... first the czars, then the communist leaders, and now Putin.

Part of the reason has been that the people have always been dulled down and kept uneducated (and I'm not speaking here about university education, but rather a liberal education where you learn to think for yourself and understand the world). Propaganda and indoctrination are natural ways of life in Russia.

I'm not trying to say that Russia should be a democracy, I'm aware that for the most part that would be very very difficult to achieve. I'm simply saying that I'd rather have Biden and his clique rule over me than Putin. Or Xi for that matter.

 

[Antifragile]

Some more news to share from my phone call with family there just now:

- Ukrainian government is drafting all able men (18 to 60 years old) for military
- All search engines / internet in Ukraine is limited and filtered.
- Information on TV, radio is repeated and censored
- Banks are mostly closed (many have Russian ties)
- Leaving the country for men is forbidden (because of the draft into service)
- Roads from Kyiv are blocked, a trip that normally takes 5 hours is now 1.5 days later and still not arrived!
- There is an order to shut down all lights in the cities. It's just dark during the night by order of the government. Scary to even think how that feels

@Simon Angel is 100% right - let's not pretend to know what's going on. The only reliable source of info for me is my phone calls with family and unfortunately regular people in Ukraine are in the dark too. They get their news from state media now.

This is a very sad situation.

 

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[Simon Angel]

Some more news to share from my phone call with family there just now:

- Ukrainian government is drafting all able men (18 to 60 years old) for military
- All search engines / internet in Ukraine is limited and filtered.
- Information on TV, radio is repeated and censored
- Banks are mostly closed (many have Russian ties)
- Leaving the country for men is forbidden (because of the draft into service)
- Roads from Kyiv are blocked, a trip that normally takes 5 hours is now 1.5 days later and still not arrived!
- There is an order to shut down all lights in the cities. It's just dark during the night by order of the government. Scary to even think how that feels

@Simon Angel is 100% right - let's not pretend to know what's going on. The only reliable source of info for me is my phone calls with family and unfortunately regular people in Ukraine are in the dark too. They get their news from state media now.

This is a very sad situation.

All of this (+ more) has been covered by Kyiv Independent, they seem to be a pretty good source. Lots of new stuff that's yet to be reported anywhere can be found in /r/CombatFootage though it's pretty gruesome.

I've been feeling like shit the past two days because I'm constantly looking up the happenings in Ukraine. In fact, I've already planned what I'm going to do and where I'm going to go if this goes south in both the literal and figurative sense of the word.

So many civilians have already been killed in Ukraine, including women and kids. Young dudes are getting pumped full of lead because of aging, power-hungry sociopaths that want to play 3D chess before their time is up.

But to reiterate my point, we don't know what really drove Putin to do this. It might have been ego, it might have been for the glory of mother Russia.. but it could have been a provocation by the west and he, as crazy as this may sound, may have picked the lesser evil scenario.

 

[Speed112]

Part of the reason has been that the people have always been dulled down and kept uneducated (and I'm not speaking here about university education, but rather a liberal education where you learn to think for yourself and understand the world). Propaganda and indoctrination are natural ways of life in Russia.

It's the same all over the world. Don't be mistaken to believe there are places in this world devoid of indoctrination and propaganda.

It's very important to think critically and look beyond the superficial.

This is not about what CNN says or RT says or Putin or Biden or Zelensky. Everyone has an agenda and are spinning the situation to suit their own narrative. If you want to understand what is going on and predict what either side is going to do moving forward, you need to understand their narrative, their bias and agenda, and also the facts that lie behind them.

Saying Putin is a madman and acting irrationally because he wants to restore the URSS and leave a legacy as a glorious leader is not gonna teach you anything useful.

Saying Biden is a blabbering idiot with no spine that is incapable or unwilling to stand up to anyone and that all we need to do is spread more democracy and sanction our enemies, or escalate things further... isn't gonna teach you anything either.

Everyone everywhere is misinformed.

Except you, of course, because you clearly are one of the few people who can read minds and knows exactly what Putin and the Russian population thinks.

So maybe instead of oughts we cannot implement or influence in any way, maybe we ought to discuss the facts.

Things are happening. They suck. There are historical reasons why they are happening even if you don't believe them or disagree with them. There will be clear consequences independent of any leader's political action.

So how do we get over this situation in a healthy way that keeps us free and safe in the foreseeable future?

Is there a way to help the hundreds of thousands of refugees displaced by the war?

These are more important than projecting worldviews onto others and pretending to understand what criminals think.

 

[eramart]

It appears that the best way to divide people is to have them talk war.

What I find the most mind-boggling, however, is how so many here are so certain they know what's "really" going on and defend their stances vehemently. The truth is, we don't know shit.

The best thing we can do, in my opinion, is to observe:

Ukrainian news and reporters:

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent

https://twitter.com/lapatina_

American war reporter based in Ukraine:

https://twitter.com/nolanwpeterson

Russian news:

Вести.Ru: новости, видео и фото дня

Новости дня от Вести.Ru, интервью, репортажи, фото и видео, новости Москвы и регионов России, новости экономики, погода

www.vesti.ru

RT - Breaking News, Russia News, World News and Video

RT is the first Russian 24/7 English-language news channel which brings the Russian view on global news.

www.rt.com

CNN coverage:

Russia invades Ukraine: Live updates

Russian President Vladimir Putin announced a military operation in Ukraine early Thursday. US President Joe Biden announced new "strong" sanctions on Russia and limitations on exports as he condemned Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Follow here for live news updates from the ground in Ukraine.

edition.cnn.com

/r/CombatFootage (NSFW):

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

These are all the sources I'm following at the moment. If anyone has any other good ones, please share.

Telegram:

Pro-Russian channel: Сводки ополчения Новороссии

Pro-Ukrainian channel:

УНИАН - новости Украины | война с Россией | новини України | війна з Росією | УНІАН

Последние новости с фронта, все о войне с Россией, а также другие актуальные новости Украины! ТОЛЬКО по вопросам рекламы на канале - @Tavika82. Сообщения по другим вопросам будут блокироваться. Сайт: https://www.unian.net

t.me

Bear in mind, they are extremely opinionated and propagandistic

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

I think if anyone wants to post in their thread, they should post their location so we can get a better perspective of your opinion.

Someone's opinion in Poland (which borders Ukraine) clearly might have a different perspective than someone posting from the safety and comfort of Tacoma Washington.

 

[Antifragile]

I've been feeling like shit the past two days because I'm constantly looking up the happenings in Ukraine.

How can anyone feel anything other than like shit, with high emotions and tears in eyes? This is a war. War kills people, other humans like us. And for what? For someone's agenda. It's so F*cked. Whether you have relatives in Ukraine or not, it's one of the saddest moment we've had in the world in some time. *sigh...*

 

[Trevor Kuntz]

Well, it's not very surprising, he literarily owns all the Russian media, and has dismantled stations that oppose him, plus imprisoned dissenters, killed them, or forced them into exile (like chess player Kasparov). All the news your average Russian hears is Putin's narrative. The traditional Russian people have also, always liked the idea of a "vozhd" = supreme leader who will take care of them. Russia has never been a proper democracy... first the czars, then the communist leaders, and now Putin.

Part of the reason has been that the people have always been dulled down and kept uneducated (and I'm not speaking here about university education, but rather a liberal education where you learn to think for yourself and understand the world). Propaganda and indoctrination are natural ways of life in Russia.

I'm not trying to say that Russia should be a democracy, I'm aware that for the most part that would be very very difficult to achieve. I'm simply saying that I'd rather have Biden and his clique rule over me than Putin. Or Xi for that matter.

Between your posts yesterday about bombing Moscow and wiping out 200M Russians/Chinese and your posts from today, I keep double checking the author name because it feels like I am reading the writings of two completely different writers. Regardless, glad to hear your opinions today.

 

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[David Fitz]

- Ukrainian government is drafting all able men (18 to 60 years old) for military
- Leaving the country for men is forbidden (because of the draft into service)

What happened to women's equality? I bet if this was the West, there would be record numbers of men saying they were transgender so they wouldn't be drafted.

 

[nothingness]

Men are disposable. The patriarchy in action.

 

[MTF]

What happened to women's equality? I bet if this was the West, there would be record numbers of men saying they were transgender so they wouldn't be drafted.

Women are volunteering. For example this woman from the Ukrainian parliament:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497264543428448260

View: https://twitter.com/kiraincongress/status/1497264543428448260


I can't imagine how absurd it must feel for her to hold an AK-47 and not in the context of a fun day at the shooting range with friends...

 

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[Hadrian]

What happened to women's equality? I bet if this was the West, there would be record numbers of men saying they were transgender so they wouldn't be drafted.

Best Movie ever made that unpacks and deconstructs Politics, Imperialism and Religion...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c&ab_channel=PkLugia

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Saying Putin is a madman and acting irrationally because he wants to restore the URSS and leave a legacy as a glorious leader is not gonna teach you anything useful.

I'm not sure if you're talking to me, as I never claimed that Putin is a madman or acting irrationally. He is acting very rationally, in accordance with his goals of restoring the USSR and leaving a legacy as a glorious leader for himself.

The rest of your post seems to follow the same angle. I've never said that Putin is behaving irrationally or that his actions don't make sense.

 

[MitchC]

Yeah, imagine Trump locking up Hillary and trying to shut down the New York times.

I think your point is supposed to sound far-fetched to an American ear. But these kind of parallels in tactics is why I always suspected Trump was guilty of collusion with Russia.

Do you not read the comments in this very forum? Sure, they don't say the press, they complain about the media. But it's the same thing, or at least on the same spectrum.

When you have a country whose value of the press is so strong, the first thing you have to do is weaken its credibility. Then you can ignore it. Then you can suppress it.

Every successful president needs an enemy. Trump chose the media as his.

What does that tell you?



And I can't believe that person isn't an American. I'm also surprised not a single American is saying these things with him.

That's how much political thought in my country has changed in roughly 20 years.

And for the record, not every single war. That's not how we got into WWI, WWII, or 9/11.

Another difference is that we don't annex anybody anymore.

Plus we have repeatedly reinvested and at least attempted, to build up places that we went to war in. Often with great success. And to our own detriment.

But let's not give America any credit for anything. Just sell the narrative that Russia and America are just as bad.

America supported revolution to oust an unpopular but duly elected President who wanted closer Russian ties against his citizens protests.

That's not democratic.

Russia rolls in tanks and their own troops and bombs the place.

That's not democratic.

Totally the same thing.

You know, we have drug cartels literally taking over whole towns within 20 miles from our border. They are killing all the journalists. And what is the US response? Are we massing tanks to get rid of this obvious threat to our security? Are we using this as a pretense for invasion?

Stop trying to equate Russia's actions with the United States actions. There is a world of difference.

You do realise it came out recently that Hillary Clinton was spying on trump, even while he was president, to fabricate a Russian collusion story and they found no evidence but made it up anyway?

You don’t because your media has been hiding that from you.

Which is exactly why trump chose the media as his enemy.

Exactly, why is USA doing nothing about drug cartels in Mexico when they are on the border, instead you have open borders letting millions in, but you have time and money to invade Iraq because of a fake WMD story?

Everything else you said is nice and I somewhat agree but I just can’t leave that Russia and media stuff there unchecked, it’s a fact that it was made up by Hillary Clinton and you still believe it because of the fake news media which is exactly the point.

 

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[Speed112]

I'm not sure if you're talking to me, as I never claimed that Putin is a madman or acting irrationally. He is acting very rationally, in accordance with his goals of restoring the USSR and leaving a legacy as a glorious leader for himself.

The rest of your post seems to follow the same angle. I've never said that Putin is behaving irrationally or that his actions don't make sense.

That is the mainstream narrative. The restoration legacy stuff is part of it. Him having such goals (which I don't believe are the case) is precisely what makes him irrational, as "we're in the 21st century praise democracy boo imperialism". So I don't think you can have one without the other.

That is, as long as you're following the mainstream narrative, which you seem to be.

But yes, I was talking in general not specifically at you, so I generalized things a bit.

 

[Hadrian]

You do realise it came out recently that Hillary Clinton was spying on trump, even while he was president, to fabricate a Russian collusion story and they found no evidence but made it up anyway?

Yes and No. They found no evidence but didnt exonerate him.

American and British intelligence agencies believe the Kremlin has the evidence and thats why he acts like a soft kitten purring around Putin.

Worth a listen: It's from the BBC, a conservative and globally trusted British media organisation.

BBC Radio 4 - The Coming Storm, 5. Blowback

Don’t mess with the Russians.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[MoneyDoc]

It’s sad to see so many here falling for Russian propaganda…

Russia is the enemy of the West and our values - freedom, democracy, rule of law and free market capitalism. There is no if or but here.

Russian aggression in Ukraine is not justified and Russia has no reasonable grievances to speak of. They have been trying to provoke the Ukranians for months now into conflict. Putin has lied repeatedly, just a few days ago he has said he has no plans to invade Ukraine and now lo and behold, a well-planned campaign is under way.

I hate to break it to some of you, but there is good and evil in the world. It’s not all a grey, complex mess as some of you like to think it is. It is precisely this “widsom” of seeing everything in grey and being unable to see white and black that has crippled us - we are no longer able to differentiate good from evil.

Putin is a dictator and a killer - someone who has personally ordered the MURDER of his opposition in brutal ways, including through radioactive poisoning ON FOREIGN TERRITORY. If you think he has any “principles” or that you can trust his word or negotiate with him, you still don’t understand who you’re dealing with. Putin does not negotiate.

For those who think Ukraine or the International Community should give in to Russia’s demands to avoid war, this is a big error. First of all, Russia knows that if Ukraine does not enter NATO, then it will be colonised - by Russia. Sooner or later, Russia will get a puppet government in there… by force, by election, by hook or crook, it doesn’t matter. Ukraine will become like Belarus today.

Zelensky knows that the only hope his country has is to enter NATO - then Russia cannot interfere as easily. Not that they won’t… they’ll simply say that they don’t consider Ukraine joininig is valid… just like how they recognize two independent countries within Ukraine’s borders despite what the rest of the International Community says.

Without entering NATO, there will be NO UKRAINE. Now, Putin has no right to demand control over another nation’s destiny. And such demand is so absurd, that it should not be tolerated or even considered. It doesn’t matter what Ukraine’s history was - point is Ukraine is now an independent country and has to be respected as such. Putin’s demands are a blatant infringement of international laws. In my opinion, the international community should put a blockade on Russia’s oil, close down Russia’s access to international waters, and demand that Putin stop the invasion and guarantee that he will not continue Russian expansion beyond territories he has already gained in Georgia, Belarus and parts of Ukraine. And NO GUARANTEE that Ukraine will not join NATO - they’re a free country and he needs to respect that.

50% of Russia’s income comes from oil and gas. Just turn it off. Pay double the price, buy it from the Americans (as Trump wanted), until Putin gives in.

I can post an essay of double standards based on your post, but I won't. I will however post a statement from Zelensky himself. And please don't straw man my post into saying I support Putin or I think Putin is a Boy Scout.

Speaking in the early hours of the morning from Kiev, Zelensky said he had reached out to “partners” in the West to tell them Ukraine’s fate was at stake.

“I asked them – are you with us?” Zelensky said. “They answered that they are with us, but they don’t want to take us into the alliance. I’ve asked 27 leaders of Europe, if Ukraine will be in NATO, I’ve asked them directly — all are afraid and did not respond”

“We were left by ourselves. Who is ready to go to war for us? Honestly, I don’t see anybody. Who is ready to give Ukraine guarantees of NATO membership? Honestly, everybody is afraid,” the Ukrainian president added.

So what were you saying about NATO again?

 

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[Fox]

I was saying to my girlfriend the other day that this would likely happen. You have a lot of younger foreign guys living in and around Ukraine - if they are going to hand out guns to anyone you might as well go big.

So crazy - I wonder how many will go.

 

[basedzoomer]

Ukraine giving up their nukes for a security guarantee from us, uk, russia was a treasonous choice. One that might have been avoided if there was a smart ukranian leader at the time.

North Korea is better in this regard.

 

[Antti]

Putin has certainly broken character here, he has not taken risks even nearly this big before. The UK defence minister said that "he has gone full tonto". I don't know what tonto means but it doesn't sound very flattering. I certainly wouldn't rule out Putin having serious mental health issues. He hasn't had a normal life since the 90's. Being a dictator must be the loneliest job you can have. The guy has social distanced for more than 20 years. It must be almost impossible to not be seriously paranoid. He knows that even his idol Stalin, a much more feared despot, was eventually killed by people around him (I know this is not 100% proven). All that can't be conducive to good mental health.

 

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[MTF]

The UK defence minister said that "he has gone full tonto". I don't know what that tonto means

Tonto means stupid in Spanish.

 

[Antti]

Tonto means stupid in Spanish.

Been to Spain many times, guess I've behaved well because I can't recall hearing that word before

 

[Tony100]

Ukraine giving up their nukes for a security guarantee from us, uk, russia was a treasonous choice. One that might have been avoided if there was a smart ukranian leader at the time.

North Korea is better in this regard.

From my understanding Russia has broken the Budapest Memorandum. But reading the document it looks like the UK and US have not broken it, unless Russia uses or threatens to use nuclear weapons on Ukraine then they would have to act. I'm not a lawyer though and to be fair I've heard that it is not as legally binding as Ukraine would hope (I don't have a source for that, I read it somewhere so it might be BS, or not).

 

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[srodrigo]

Lots of oppressed Russians in Finland and Sweden.

Russia Issues Ominous Warning to Finland, Sweden Should They Join NATO

Ukraine's president confirmed that both countries had offered their support in the fight against Russia.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Antifragile]

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/t1aakn
This is basically President of Ukraine saying "we are all here with our troops". It appears he is in Kyiv.

 

[Hadrian]

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/t1aakn
This is basically President of Ukraine saying "we are all here with our troops". It appears he is in Kyiv.

You wouldn't see this level of courage from any of our NATO leaders...

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/t1aakn
This is basically President of Ukraine saying "we are all here with our troops". It appears he is in Kyiv.

I respect that a lot. It is their Alamo moment.

I do not know what should be done. But will pray for Ukraine.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

Ukraine giving up their nukes for a security guarantee from us, uk, russia was a treasonous choice. One that might have been avoided if there was a smart ukranian leader at the time.

North Korea is better in this regard.

I am ashamed that the US leaders would make a deal like this and then not follow through with it.

Of course, it is not their deal to make (give up nukes and we promise to send all our young men to die for you!) but it is still shameful.