The Cross-Roads: Choosing Between Two Paths

[NonMagicalGenie]

So...I got more information regarding a job that I got hired for on Upwork, and F*ck…I don’t know what to do . Very confused at the moment...Don't know what I got myself into...

They are having me sign a NDA (which is completely fine) and a Terms & Conditions for the project that I’m gonna be a part of. And boy is the T&C some F*cking crazy shit. On paper it sounds like I’m selling my soul to the devil. Talking about I can't tell anyone or anything about the company or what I do for the company, to the extent of not even telling the clients that I’m gonna be working with what I do. And if I violate the T&C or any other document that I have signed (since they are legally binding) I have to pay damages minimum of 1,000,000 USD. Do you think this is typical? Am I overthinking this?

Oh! And this is not even explaining how everything the guy said throughout the interview has contradicted itself when I read the T&C and parts of the NDA. How can I not mention the company name to anyone or anything when the name of the company is on the job post? It makes no damn sense…A lot of things that he said makes no damn sense when I read the T&C now...Is this type of language unenforceable in court? I mean, its ludicrous...

And all of this would be OK if I actually trusted the guy and the company he is a part of. But I don’t for some reason. My BS radar is going off the charts and it started during the interview…

When I had the interview, he was telling me all of these stories and they seem like lies now. Really they do. He made everything sound nice and sweet, like its the best thing since sliced bread. I was very cautious and wondering throughout the call “Whats the catch here? I mean, this seems too good to be true…” He had an answer for every scenario. It was so weird. He was talking about people that he had hired and I was going to be the 5th one. But he didn’t say the people he hired were new and that he hired them from the same job post that I got hired from, which that is where he hired them from (he mentioned 4 and he hired 4 from Upwork along with me. Weird right?). He made the people seem like they had been working for the company for months or even years and they were well established in the company, not new like me.

Maybe they are maybe they aren't. But, I do know he has hired 4 other people since the T&C document went to them as well. I can see from the documents history all of recipients of the doc and whether or not they have signed it or not. Don’t know why that information is out in the open because I know the other recipients email addresses as well...

Anyways…I’m very confused on what to do. The easy answer would be to just tell I can’t do the job. I guess this how the cross-roads feel. I’m still thinking about this because I could make some good money from this job. And it could truly help me. But I don’t trust them. Not a single damn word.

One other thing, since I am already hired by him, I don’t want my job success score to go lower if I decide not take on this job, since it is at 100%.

This is why I made this post a rant. I know what to do, but then again, I don't know if I'm overthinking this. Would like other peoples opinions...

 

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[mws87]

You're overthinking this. A lot. And I don't really see why you are, either.

Take all those things you're concerned about and file them under the "who cares?" folder. Why? Well, he hired you to do a job, and whatever else he does shouldn't really matter. Sure, nobody wants to pay $1mm for goofing on an NDA, and that's exactly why it's in place. Most companies will have you sign NDA's. To me, everything seems pretty standard here. Who cares about the guy's stories?

My $0.02: Give this guy some value, complete the job, and move onto the next client.

Oh, and relax a bit—chillin' out your brain goes a long way.

 

[NonMagicalGenie]

You're overthinking this. A lot. And I don't really see why you are, either.

Take all those things you're concerned about and file them under the "who cares?" folder. Why? Well, he hired you to do a job, and whatever else he does shouldn't really matter. Sure, nobody wants to pay $1mm for goofing on an NDA, and that's exactly why it's in place. Most companies will have you sign NDA's. To me, everything seems pretty standard here. Who cares about the guy's stories?

My $0.02: Give this guy some value, complete the job, and move onto the next client.

Oh, and relax a bit—chillin' out your brain goes a long way.

It's not a one time job man, its an ongoing job, long term. From what he said in the interview I'm gonna be dealing with a lot of clients and data.

Like I said, I don't mind signing the documents. I just have a weird feeling about everything he told me and what I read on the two legal documents. It doesn't add up to what he told me during our interview.

 

[mws87]

It's not a one time job man, its an ongoing job, long term. From what he said in the interview I'm gonna be dealing with a lot of clients and data.

Like I said, I don't mind signing the documents. I just have a weird feeling about everything he told me and what I read on the two legal documents. It doesn't add up to what he told me during our interview.

Okay. Why not just ask him to clarify the things that don't add up for you? And if you did, what did he say?

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

this would be OK if I actually trusted the guy and the company he is a part of. But I don’t for some reason. My BS radar is going off the charts and it started during the interview…

I would not ignore this...

Intuition is rarely wrong.

Based on what you describe, it sounds like a scam artist who knows how to persuade, manipulate, and sell. Your BS meter doesn't fire for nothing...

 

[Red]

My BS radar is going off the charts and it started during the interview…

he was telling me all of these stories and they seem like lies now.

But I don’t trust them. Not a single damn word.

I think you have your answer already.

 

[NonMagicalGenie]

Okay. Why not just ask him to clarify the things that don't add up for you? And if you did, what did he say?

I contacted him on Skype and asked to have a chat about the legal documents for more clarification. So we'll see what he says or if he even contacts me back at all...

I would not ignore this...

Intuition is rarely wrong.

Based on what you describe, it sounds like a scam artist who knows how to persuade, manipulate, and sell. Your BS meter doesn't fire for nothing...

Thanks for telling me I'm not crazy lol.

That is why I haven't signed them yet. Also their company website uses obscure language as well. Like its the best next thing...

Funny thing is, some of the other hires have already signed the document. They had signed the document within 2 minutes of receiving it, except for me and one other person (I know this from the documents history). Idk, it's just weird. Why you would sign a document like that automatically? It's like they didn't even take the time to read it...

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

the some of the other hires have already signed the document.

Sales tactic...

Social proof, peer pressure...

This shit is used in MLM pressure cookers... "Joe Schmo already signed up! So did [name drop and name drop] -- you have to sign up!"

 

[Andy Black]

I've been burned enough times to trust my gut (more) now. I still have lapses.

"How you do anything is how you do everything."

If you're this confused and stressed after an interview, how do you think it will be neck deep into a project?

Personally, I'd move on and find people who value what you can do for them, and that you positively enjoy chatting to and getting to know.

Call it the beer/coffee test. Would you want to go for a beer/coffee with this person?


With an abundance mindset you'd be happy to say No to this one, and therefore leave room for a good client to come into your life instead.

My recent view on the whole client-services business is that I'm happy to have high client churn, while I find clients who I'm going to have a long term relationship with, and almost "partner up". I have a revolving door and am happy to ease a client out if they're too much hard work.

 

[NonMagicalGenie]

Sales tactic...

Social proof, peer pressure...

This shit is used in MLM pressure cookers... "Joe Schmo already signed up! So did [name drop and name drop] -- you have to sign up!"

Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification MJ!

Well, idk what's gonna happen next. Hopefully we can part ways without me losing my current job success score. Which I don't know if thats going to happen now. Some lose will most likely happen.

 

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[NonMagicalGenie]

I've been burned enough times to trust my gut (more) now. I still have lapses.

You really learn what it means when people say "How you do anything is how you do everything."

If you're this confused and stressed after an interview, how do you think it will be neck deep into a project?

Personally, I'd move on and find people who value what you can do for them, and that you positively enjoy chatting to and getting to know.

Call it the beer or coffee test. Would you want to go for a beer or coffee with this person.


With an abundance mindset you'd be happy to say No to this one, and therefore leave room for a good client come into your life instead.

Thanks for that Andy! Yeah, I'm gonna part-ways, definitely. Even if that means coming out with a lose on this one. I'm very optimistic naturally anyways, so I know I'll find something better. I've been talking with other companies as well, so it's not the end of the world!

Just to clarify somethings...

It wasn't after the interview. The interview happened days and days ago. It was yesterday when I finally received the NDA and T&C legal documents to sign.

I remembered that interview like it was yesterday, because things that make my gut kind of crunch-up stay with me for a long time. With grave detail.

I remembered everything he told me and when reading the two documents, things just started to fire off like rockets. ESPECIALLY when reading the T&C for the project, that really made me feel dazed, confused and lost. Thinking like "WTF? Seriously?! Is this even a real legal document?"

 

[Lex DeVille]

Here's what I posted to you when you asked about this in the other thread.

I've never had to sign one, but they are fairly common.

Clients don't want people stealing their ideas, and in the event someone does, the contract helps protect them.

If you read it and agree with it then it shouldn't be an issue. If not, then you probably shouldn't work with them.

If you don't like a client or if you don't feel good about a client or if something feels off...

Don't get involved. End of worries. End of story.

 

[NonMagicalGenie]

Here's what I posted to you when you asked about this in the other thread.



If you don't like a client or if you don't feel good about a client or if something feels off...

Don't get involved. End of worries. End of story.

Thanks Lex, again...funny thing is, I made that post before reading the T&C. I only read the NDA when I posted that...

I thought I would make my own thread just to see if I'm being crazy or not. It looks like I'm definitely not being crazy.

Now I know what to do in the future. Definitely got the advice given ingrained in my brain now!

 

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[NonMagicalGenie]

I ended the contract with the company. It feels really F*cking good. Thanks for the feedback everyone!

When I first messaged him stating that I wanted to have a chat over the phone on Skype (about 3 hours before my "parting ways" message) - going over the documents - I got no reply back, which is what I expected to happen anyways.

But as soon as I mentioned parting ways and telling him why I was parting ways, he immediately answers back. Go figure right?

From his "perspective" he doesn't understand why I feel this way and how anything he stated during our interview contradicts any of the documents he wanted me to sign. He went further and said, the Project Term document was made by the CEO because the project is highly sensitive and wanted to cover all basis. Makes sense, but it still contradicts what he told me during the interview, which contradicts the Project T&C doc. The NDA is an NDA...

He wanted me to talk with the CEO about the misunderstanding over the Project Terms, but I had already ended the Upwork contract about a minute before. And plus, I wouldn't want to talk with the CEO since he may not know what the employer told me and would most likely agree with everything he said even if it is false. We would end up arguing over who is right and who is wrong and wouldn't get anywhere. My decision was already made, so no point of igniting the fire further, you know?

So at the end of day we parted on good terms, I think...

Well...on to the next one!

 

[MJ DeMarco]

It feels really F*cking good.

Trust your gut.

That tells me you made the right decision.

 

[Andy Black]

I ended the contract with the company. It feels really F*cking good. Thanks for the feedback everyone!

When I first messaged him stating that I wanted to have a chat over the phone on Skype (about 3 hours before my "parting ways" message) - going over the documents - I got no reply back, which is what expected to happen anyways.

But as soon as I mentioned parting ways and telling him why I was parting ways, he immediately answers back. Go figure right?

From his "perspective" he doesn't understand why I feel this way and how anything he stated during our interview contradicts any of the documents he wanted me to sign. He went further and said, the Project Term document was made by the CEO because the project is highly sensitive and wanted to cover all basis. Makes sense, but it still contradicts what he told me during the interview, which contradicts the Project T&C doc. The NDA is an NDA...

He wanted me to talk with the CEO about the misunderstanding over the Project Terms, but I had already ended the Upwork contract about a minute before. And plus, I wouldn't want to talk with the CEO since he may not know what the employer told me and would most likely agree with everything he said even if it is false. We would end up arguing over who is right and who is wrong and wouldn't get anywhere. My decision was already made, so no point of igniting the fire further, you know?

So at the end of day we parted on good terms, I think...

Well...on to the next one!

Good for you. Remember that feeling. That's what it feels like to be in control, to have faith in yourself, and to back yourself. Good things will happen out of this I have no doubt.

 

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[Jon L]

very good decision. Not that you need another person saying the same thing everyone else said. There is nothing more unproductive that being tied into a bad client. Run far, fast...just like you did. There are way too many good clients out there for you to waste time on a potentially bad one.

And...what in the world kind of company puts a $1m payout into an NDA???!! I've never seen any that specify an amount, much less one that high.

 

[TheGenius]

It's usually best to go with your gut feeling on things like this.

However, indemnity clauses are quite common in NDAs and shouldn't scare you away. Though, usually the language is more vague saying you'll cover them for liabilities, damages, losses, costs and expenses that arise from violating the terms.

 

[NonMagicalGenie]

It's usually best to go with your gut feeling on things like this.

However, indemnity clauses are quite common in NDAs and shouldn't scare you away. Though, usually the language is more vague saying you'll cover them for liabilities, damages, losses, costs and expenses that arise from violating the terms.

I'm was fine with the terms for the NDA. The NDA is ok. But the NDA and Project T&C are completely separate documents that needed to be signed individually, but the Project T&C is legally binded. It is stated on the Project T&C if I violate any contract I signed for the company I have to pay a minimum of $1,000,000 USD.

And also, since the time you sign the Project T&C it last for forever, till the end of time. Really crazy stuff man...never heard of contracts like this. Maybe if you work for the government, FBI, CIA or something.

 

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[OldFaithful]

Having recently read several posts by @Vigilante and @Esquire about legal issues, I'll just add this as a reminder to all. Even if the prospective client clarifies an issue over the phone, if the contract is not changed...then the conversation never happened. If there is something in the contract that is truly worrisome, a verbal discussion or separate agreement will not suffice...get the contract changed prior to signing.

 

[NonMagicalGenie]

Having recently read several posts by @Vigilante and @Esquire about legal issues, I'll just add this as a reminder to all. Even if the prospective client clarifies an issue over the phone, if the contract is not changed...then the conversation never happened. If there is something in the contract that is truly worrisome, a verbal discussion or separate agreement will not suffice...get the contract changed prior to signing.

Agreed. The old saying, "always get it in writing" is given by a lot of people for a reason. Without visual proof, nothing ever happened or was even changed.

 

[Vigilante]

Having recently read several posts by @Vigilante and @Esquire about legal issues, I'll just add this as a reminder to all. Even if the prospective client clarifies an issue over the phone, if the contract is not changed...then the conversation never happened. If there is something in the contract that is truly worrisome, a verbal discussion or separate agreement will not suffice...get the contract changed prior to signing.

Integration clauses in written contracts supersede ANYTHING extraneous of the contractual agreement itself.

 

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[NonMagicalGenie]

Integration clauses in written contracts supersede ANYTHING extraneous of the contractual agreement itself.

So you can't change anything. Good thing to know...so how would you go about asking for revisions before the "said" document is handed-over for you to sign?

 

[MJ DeMarco]

so how would you go about asking for revisions before the "said" document is handed-over for you to sign

You simply ask for it to be changed.

Negotiation is one thing...

Having the contract REFLECT the spoken negotiation is another.

Can't tell you how many times I've had verbal agreements on things and when the contract came to pass, the contract did not match the spoken agreement.

 

[NonMagicalGenie]

You simply ask for it to be changed.

Negotiation is one thing...

Having the contract REFLECT the spoken negotiation is another.

Can't tell you how many times I've had verbal agreements on things and when the contract came to pass, the contract did not match the spoken agreement.

Ohhh ok! So the integration clause would be included after all of the changes and revisions have been made.

Sounds pretty tedious to have verbal agreements reflected on the contract. Always a good thing to read the documents thoroughly before signing them!

 

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[Vigilante]

Ohhh ok! So the integration clause would be included after all of the changes and revisions have been made.

Sounds pretty tedious to have verbal agreements reflected on the contract. Always a good thing to read the documents thoroughly before signing them!

if you have a verbal agreement, and the contract says something else, and the contract contains an integration clause, you're dead. ZERO other documents are relevant. No verbal agreements, no emails, nothing else matters. Redline the contract to eliminate objectionable language or insert clarifying language before you execute it.

This was the hardest lesson I ever learned in my life. If the contract says one thing, but the email clarifying the contract says another, that makes no difference. If it is not in the contract, it can't even be introduced in the interpretation of the contract in the event of a disagreement. The contract must represent exactly and clearly all of the terms of the agreement. Period.

 

[NonMagicalGenie]

if you have a verbal agreement, and the contract says something else, and the contract contains an integration clause, you're dead. ZERO other documents are relevant. No verbal agreements, no emails, nothing else matters. Redline the contract to eliminate objectionable language or insert clarifying language before you execute it.

This was the hardest lesson I ever learned in my life. If the contract says one thing, but the email clarifying the contract says another, that makes no difference. If it is not in the contract, it can't even be introduced in the interpretation of the contract in the event of a disagreement. The contract must represent exactly and clearly all of the terms of the agreement. Period.

Wow...well, that should hurt where the sun don't shine if that happens.

Learned something very important today it seems...how I execute what I've learned in the future, is a different story all the together.

Thanks for the in-depth clarification Vigilante.

 

[ModernAlpha]

If you're BS meter is going off, trust your gut and walk away. That's what I would do.. just think.. best case scenario is things go perfect and you have ongoing work with this guy that you don't like and constantly hear new BS from him.

You need this business relationship like you need a hole in your head. I'd pass on this one. My main priority in life/business is stress avoidance, not making money. Move on and find someone you feel better working with.

Or you could have your attorney re-write the NDA in a way that is reasonable to you and offer to sign that version with them, etc.

As I become more strict and disciplined on the things I'm willing to accept in my life, I find life gets more and more enjoyable.

 

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[NonMagicalGenie]

If you're BS meter is going off, trust your gut and walk away. That's what I would do.. just think.. best case scenario is things go perfect and you have ongoing work with this guy that you don't like and constantly hear new BS from him.

You need this business relationship like you need a hole in your head. I'd pass on this one. My main priority in life/business is stress avoidance, not making money. Move on and find someone you feel better working with.

Or you could have your attorney re-write the NDA in a way that is reasonable to you and offer to sign that version with them, etc.

As I become more strict and disciplined on the things I'm willing to accept in my life, I find life gets more and more enjoyable.

Thanks for the input ModernAlpha. A lot of what you said definitely makes sense.

I ended the contract with the company. It feels really F*cking good. Thanks for the feedback everyone!

When I first messaged him stating that I wanted to have a chat over the phone on Skype (about 3 hours before my "parting ways" message) - going over the documents - I got no reply back, which is what I expected to happen anyways.

But as soon as I mentioned parting ways and telling him why I was parting ways, he immediately answers back. Go figure right?

From his "perspective" he doesn't understand why I feel this way and how anything he stated during our interview contradicts any of the documents he wanted me to sign. He went further and said, the Project Term document was made by the CEO because the project is highly sensitive and wanted to cover all basis. Makes sense, but it still contradicts what he told me during the interview, which contradicts the Project T&C doc. The NDA is an NDA...

He wanted me to talk with the CEO about the misunderstanding over the Project Terms, but I had already ended the Upwork contract about a minute before. And plus, I wouldn't want to talk with the CEO since he may not know what the employer told me and would most likely agree with everything he said even if it is false. We would end up arguing over who is right and who is wrong and wouldn't get anywhere. My decision was already made, so no point of igniting the fire further, you know?

So at the end of day we parted on good terms, I think...

Well...on to the next one!

Just so you know. I ended the contract as of yesterday! I made a post about it on this thread. It's quoted above .