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Self-Empathy vs Mental Toughness - Which One Do You Find More Useful?

Black_Dragon43

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I get it. It also depends what work is for you. If it's only about "productive" material actions but no inner work (like learning how to relax, be in the moment) then things can get out of balance.
I agree, it tends to sometimes become a problem for me. Something I need to watch out for.
You're right and I was wrong. I watched this video and it's super clear that Tony is all about training the mind like a muscle, which is essentially building mental toughness. He does mention he's very spiritual but I'd say that it's in the background compared to his training.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6Zbykf7hqk
Yeah, I agree with both of you here. Tony is clearly in the "mental toughness" camp. The biggest giveaway, imo, is the emphasis Tony has on "conditioning". If you read his books, Awaken the Giant Within or Unlimited Power (I believe you have read Unlimited Power @MTF, if I remember correctly you are/were a big fan?) a large portion of them are about "conditioning" or Tony's version of it which he calls neuro-associative conditioning (itself a variant of NLP).

Anyone who emphasizes "conditioning" or "training yourself to become" is not in the same camp as people like Eckhart Tolle or Michael Singer who are about "unconditioning" yourself, "unlearning" and "being".

To me, the contrast is most clear if we compare CBT (which is in its essence similar to NLP, or NAC) and mindfulness. We know that both of them have therapeutic effects that lead to changes in behavior, but the way they lead to those changes (the mechanism of action), is very different. I remember chatting with David Burns (the Doctor who wrote Feeling Good, which introduced CBT to the general public), and he seemed to be very much opposed to mindfulness on the grounds that its results aren't guaranteed in a step-by-step formula, you do this, you get this result, the way things are with CBT (which is really about re-conditioning). Indeed, mindfulness can mean a plethora of things, and isn't even well-defined in the scientific community. So I remember him saying that if you're depressed then you want the treatment with the most solid proof at changing lives.

It seems that CBT works by replacing one thought pattern ("I am worthless") with another ("I may have failed, but now I'm wiser and I'll do better in the future"). Since thoughts cause emotions and behaviors (which further accentuate the thoughts), by changing the destructive thoughts you strike at the root, and ameliorate the troubling behaviors & emotions. This is literarily a form of conditioning. You're conditioning your mind by force/willpower and repetition to think in a certain way.

On the other hand, mindfulness works by creating a space between you and your thoughts (ie, by generating UNDERSTANDING). So "you are not your thoughts" - separating your thoughts from your identity. In this case the thought "I am worthless" comes to you, but it is no longer amplified by your mind with other thoughts, such as remembrances of your past failures, because it is seen for what it truly is: just a passing thought, not something that is part of your identity. Over time, the thought "I am worthless" is drained of emotional energy, rendering it powerless, and then it disappears. The practitioners of this brand of self-help would claim that the "conditioning" camp creates superficial change. Meaning that all this conditioning merely represses the unwanted thoughts/behaviours deep down into the unconscious, where they resurface in a different form to trouble you. And the only way to truly fix it is to do the required inner work and drain the thought of its emotional energy.
 
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Mr4213

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I'd say self-empathy is definitely a valid method.

It's what I've used.

I think when you go 100% "mental toughness" you're actually avoiding work to an extent.

Because it's a lot easier to ignore the deep rooted issues and just say "stop being a b***"

I'd say its likely that the deep issues will end up manifesting again at some point in your life if you don't resolve them. It's how you grow.

To me it's all about knowing yourself and working on the relationship with yourself.

I can honestly say I'm happy as can be and love life. Business or no business I'm happy with myself and the work I put in every day.

I do my best to live in alignment with who I am. I don't live in the past or the future, but right now. I have no regrets or worries and I trust myself. My life is awesome.
 

Devilery

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To me it's for sure mental toughness first. Years ago, I was severely depressed along with many other mental "difficulties". I do feel entirely different now, and for the better of course, but I can't relate to the whole "love yourself, take time, rest when feeling like you should."

I relate the most to the "grind" culture. I don't have a morning routine, I stopped meditating, I don't have any positive affirmations, etc. I just push myself to do the work every day, and gradually work towards a new "baseline". I fuel myself with negative thoughts. You know, the pain & pleasure principle? Pain is what drives me.

Though, life is all about balance. I highly value thriving relationships. And I wouldn't "suffer" if I didn't get the results I want.

Damn, I feel like an edgy teenager writing this, but I accept that becoming a successful entrepreneur is statistically very, very unlikely, and I accept that it will be extremely hard. And now that I've accepted it, it's much easier to take action.
This helps me to stay assertive and focus on what makes an actual impact. There's no time for delusions.

I like to think that I was supposed to be mediocre (due where I grew up and where my environment was "guiding" me) and work against the odds with brute force and no plan B.
 
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Kid

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In what ways?
I think i'm gonna rub you the wrong way but you asked so.

First:

Without any metaphors or smarty quotes,
mind without acceptance of emotions and feelings is nothing,
feelings without mind are something.

All (and i mean ALL) those false gurus try to sell mind as powerful thing.
It isn't powerful. Its wimpy thing capable at best of firing few neurons and that's it.
All of that guru stuff doesn't work and is made not to work.
They make you believe pleasant lie that never worked and will never work.
All this mind stuff is made to keep you in loop of not achieving anything and paying for more.

So in short, mind alone doesn't work - at all.

To answer the question:

When you'll start being in touch with your feelings and accepting them
you get better at self defense, you get calmer and you learn to ignore things that really don't matter (from trolls, through online hysterias and as high as to anyone who is authority at the moment like presidents or fed chairman).

I suspect that such answer made you feel unpleasant but maybe someday you'll accept it and laugh at what was before.
 
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LifeisSuffering

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But it's always more interesting to ask people to commit to just one. This way you can figure out what they value more.
I'm all about Mental toughness and military approach for Self-development like David Goggins, Jocko Willink and even Patrick-Bet-David
 

ExaltedLife

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It seems to me there are two main schools of self-development.

One is closely aligned with spirituality, self-empathy, self-understanding, kindness, etc. If, for example, you're struggling to lose weight, you seek internal psychological reasons why. You try to understand yourself without making yourself feel bad as self-kindness is a big aspect of this school of thought. The goal is to pursue goals in an "enlightened" way, honoring your limitations, not being overly harsh with yourself, exhibiting inner peace, etc. Examples: Eckhart Tolle, Don Miguel Ruiz.

The second school of self-development is all about mental toughness. If you're struggling to lose weight, you don't rationalize your failures by looking for hidden past trauma. You simply tell yourself you're a b***** and keep pushing until you get what you're after. The goal is to get strong and then get stronger so that nothing breaks you. You don't use any of your weaknesses as excuses. You adapt and keep going no matter what. Examples: David Goggins, Jocko Willink.

Do you believe in self-empathy? Or do you believe it's BS and it's all about mental toughness?

Note that I'm NOT asking about your religious views. I'm asking if you think that self-empathy can be useful or if people use it as an excuse to avoid the hard work.

@Lex DeVille, I'm interested in your thoughts given your experience with the world of psychology.
I actually use both.

I find that if I'm too tough on myself, I'm liable to get frustrated and the stress makes progress difficult, and i might snap and go off on a bender.

On the other hand, if I dont feel motivated and I don't use discipline to move the needle, I don't get anything done.

For me I like the Kaizen approach that emphasizes small daily wins. By setting the bar low its easy to get started, and once I'm started I find myself pushing past my initial goal.
 

MTF

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The practitioners of this brand of self-help would claim that the "conditioning" camp creates superficial change. Meaning that all this conditioning merely represses the unwanted thoughts/behaviours deep down into the unconscious, where they resurface in a different form to trouble you. And the only way to truly fix it is to do the required inner work and drain the thought of its emotional energy.

Great observations, and particularly this part. This is what I've started to notice recently as I started exposing myself to this different world. It's hard to understand it if you're very rational but I think there's a lot of potential value there.

I just finished watching Joe Rogan's interview with Russell Brand. Brand explains this quite well and is himself a good example of a person who has changed into a better person because of meditation, mindfulness, etc. He mentioned that the awareness inside him is different from Russell Brand who's basically a filter through which he sees the world.

So, for example, a type A go-getter sees the world through the filter of taking action all the time, getting stuff done, pushing through obstacles, etc., But it doesn't mean that this is how the world works. It's not a law of nature. It's just a filter, a way of seeing things that makes it difficult to see other perspectives (because you never allow yourself the time for introspection).
 
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MTF

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I think when you go 100% "mental toughness" you're actually avoiding work to an extent.

Because it's a lot easier to ignore the deep rooted issues and just say "stop being a b***"

I'd say its likely that the deep issues will end up manifesting again at some point in your life if you don't resolve them. It's how you grow.

I'm starting to agree with that. Or at least one thing I've realized is that no matter how convinced you are of the merits of hard work and not being a b****** it's good to expose yourself to different perspectives.
 

MTF

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I relate the most to the "grind" culture. I don't have a morning routine, I stopped meditating, I don't have any positive affirmations, etc. I just push myself to do the work every day, and gradually work towards a new "baseline". I fuel myself with negative thoughts. You know, the pain & pleasure principle? Pain is what drives me.

Are you able to enjoy the present moment? When you reach your goals, will you be able to enjoy them or will you be restless and going after another goal right away?
 

MTF

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I think i'm gonna rub you the wrong way but you asked so.

Not at all. I'm trying to open my mind because I realized recently how closed-minded I am.

When you'll start being in touch with your feelings and accepting them
you get better at self defense, you get calmer and you learn to ignore things that really don't matter (from trolls, through online hysterias and as high as to anyone who is authority at the moment like presidents or fed chairman).

That's interesting because I've heard something similar in the aforementioned Joe Rogan's interview with Russell Brand. I can see the appeal of not being your thoughts and being more of a "ghost". As in: not feeling attacked or offended when people have different views since you don't consider your own beliefs as the ultimate truth, but just one of many truths.
 
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MTF

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I'm all about Mental toughness and military approach for Self-development like David Goggins, Jocko Willink and even Patrick-Bet-David

Same questions as for @Devilery:

Are you able to enjoy the present moment? When you reach your goals, will you be able to enjoy them or will you be restless and going after another goal right away?

Or in other words, do you have to be constantly "at war" to feel your best?
 

MTF

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For me I like the Kaizen approach that emphasizes small daily wins. By setting the bar low its easy to get started, and once I'm started I find myself pushing past my initial goal.

Managing expectations and smart goal setting are both definitely useful in finding the right balance between self-compassion and mental toughness. Too ambitious goals (and subsequent failures) will just make you burn out or feel like a loser. But goals that are too easy will build a false sense of confidence.
 

LifeisSuffering

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Are you able to enjoy the present moment? When you reach your goals, will you be able to enjoy them or will you be restless and going after another goal right away?
Not that much, I will feel that dopamine rush but I already know what I will do after and start taking action toward my next goal. By doing that, I minimize my chance of losing momentum and the compound effect of action.
I think that success feed your pride and pride lead to ego, which will take control of you and make you blind and prevent you from other success, by killing your humility, Not constantly learning (Oh, yeah i know that .. I already did that), Focusing on yourself and self-absorption.
I also think that pain is a measure of progress, the more pain you feel the more you achieve and get close to your goal, That's why most successful people ( not all of them but 90%) if you check their background they all had trauma and suffer at a moment of their life Ex: Tony Robbins, Eminem, Oprah Winfrey, Patrick-Bet- David, etc....
 
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WillHurtDontCare

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This is a false dichotomy. Don't prioritize your feelings, prioritize getting what you want. Think in terms of cause and effect, not sentimentality; action, not emotions.

Example: you run a business that sells widgets. You sold $1M of widgets last year, and at the beginning of the new year you decide that you want to sell $2M of widgets. Then December rolls around, and you're only on pace to sell $1.5M of widgets. Like a neurotic, you spend a week tearing yourself apart for falling short of your goal. Then the next week, you tell yourself that you should be proud of yourself for selling $500K more widgets then last week. Then on the third week, you chill out, focus on the data rather than your feelings, realize that one strategy was responsible for 90% of your sales, and you go all in on that, closing the year with $1.6M in sales and a clear path to $3M in sales next year.

Your feelings are usually of secondary or tertiary importance and they should always be subordinated to goals and principles of conduct.

"Foolishness, not sin. Do you understand that?" -Nietzsche
 

Devilery

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Same questions as for @Devilery:

Are you able to enjoy the present moment? When you reach your goals, will you be able to enjoy them or will you be restless and going after another goal right away?

Or in other words, do you have to be constantly "at war" to feel your best?
I also strongly relate to the "mental toughness" approach. Goggins is definitely someone I resonate with.

I wouldn't say I'm depressed. I'm not really happy with where I am right now, but I am happy that I'm further than I was before, and that I have the capability to go even further. The feedback loop is there (my action produces results). And I'm confident in reaching my goals. It's only a matter of time, and allowing them to remain "fluid" (I can't be certain about how and when I will achieve them, and they could shift as other aspects of life regularly do).

I don't primarily strive for enjoyment. Being able to make an impact, be someone, create something is more important for me. I don't have a fixed end-goal. I guess, feeling content and purposeful is what I'm after and the enjoyment is then "the fruit of the labor". I have shorter and longer term goals, but the ultimate goal is a continous pursuit to realize an even higher, deeper potential. In a way, we really don't need much. The more we want, the more we suffer. It's a choice we make (for some the choice makes itself).

I'm still in my mid-20s, so I know my mindset will change a lot, but for now, I prefer to sacrifice and "grind" for that envisioned next milestone, which I can't strictly define yet, and delay my need/want to feel a certain way.

As of right now, the primary focus on building a solid financial ground, with a comfortable safety net (which can be cash, savings account, business to sell, whatever) is my primary goal. Life is miserable when you're "forced" to make money, so I rather suffer extra hard now to break the cycle. I wouldn't regret doing so even if I would be dying tomorrow. Being miserable is my biggest fear, so I'll do whatever it takes to not be, even be miserable in a shorter timeframe.
 
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Kal-El1998

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Mine has always been mental toughness. Empathy can always help to an extent...but I have found the mental resolve has worked better for me personally.
 
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Marcus_aurel

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Personally i am trying to balance both. I think too much mental toughness can lead to avoiding the true cause of the problem. Which will create an inner conflict later on.
And too much empathy would make us so soft, not going hard enough after our goals.

Like they say in taoism, the yin-yang, is about balance of the extreme.
That is one of the lesson of the Zhuang Zi, not being always on one side, or always balanced and on the middle, but sometimes going on an extreme, sometimes on the other one.
I saw it myself with sport for example. When i was only about mental toughness, i was going very hard, my self talk was agressive, pushing me forward etc. Which didn't make me listen to myself, when i was tired, and then i got injured.
On the contrary, when i was only about empathy, i was so soft. Not motivated enough, finding excuses to not train, i chilled a lot, when i could actually push me a little more.
I took the example with sport, but it works in any part of life.

So acceptance of ourselves, with our mistakes, imperfection, softness, but as the time when it's needed, we should be able to push ourselves like if our life depends on it.
 

Johnny boy

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It seems to me there are two main schools of self-development.

One is closely aligned with spirituality, self-empathy, self-understanding, kindness, etc. If, for example, you're struggling to lose weight, you seek internal psychological reasons why. You try to understand yourself without making yourself feel bad as self-kindness is a big aspect of this school of thought. The goal is to pursue goals in an "enlightened" way, honoring your limitations, not being overly harsh with yourself, exhibiting inner peace, etc. Examples: Eckhart Tolle, Don Miguel Ruiz.

The second school of self-development is all about mental toughness. If you're struggling to lose weight, you don't rationalize your failures by looking for hidden past trauma. You simply tell yourself you're a b***** and keep pushing until you get what you're after. The goal is to get strong and then get stronger so that nothing breaks you. You don't use any of your weaknesses as excuses. You adapt and keep going no matter what. Examples: David Goggins, Jocko Willink.

Do you believe in self-empathy? Or do you believe it's BS and it's all about mental toughness?

Note that I'm NOT asking about your religious views. I'm asking if you think that self-empathy can be useful or if people use it as an excuse to avoid the hard work.

@Lex DeVille, I'm interested in your thoughts given your experience with the world of psychology.


People hate to look at themselves objectively. We have too much self-empathy already. Your ego will naturally come up with excuses AUTOMATICALLY.

Discipline and mental toughness COMPENSATE for the solipsism and laziness that is already in you.
 

MTF

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As I'm exploring the other end of the spectrum ("spirituality" and separating the awareness from our thoughts/emotions) I'm slowly changing my mind and approach to what mental toughness is. It can be a great tool, of that I'm sure, but before a tool, you need a person to wield the tool. And if you don't know this person well, I'm not sure you can use this tool effectively and apply it well (as in, address the cause instead of the symptom).
 
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In today's society, if you are not harsh with yourself, you are F*cked. But of course, there must be some balance. I'm struggling with that myself. Family members always tell me I'm too harsh with myself, I'm too "analytical" and so on, but if I look at their lives, they are the definition of slowlaners who don't understand reality and the script.

On the other hand, being too harsh with yourself leads to perfectionism and paradoxically, to inaction. That's what I'm experiencing now in my life. Been thinking of dropping out of university for 2 months and I'm still wondering whether I should stay or not. That's because I became a perfectionist and that's the worst thing of all, you become paralyzed.

It's a society filled with instant gratification, hence 95% of the people rationalize that you "should" be kind to yourself and "have some rest".

If you lived in a house where all people were go-getters, you would realize that's how life is supposed to be for men. On the other hand, live with some losers who do nothing but play videogames and watch porn and see how your life turns to shit.

The problem is when you are alone in life and have no IRL friends close to you who are go-getters. That's really life in hard mode.
 

MTF

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Curious how your thoughts have changed on this over time @MTF

I'm in the middle with this. Both approaches work in different circumstances.

For example, let's say you're training hard and start to feel some pain.

Is this pain something manageable and probably not dangerous long-term? Keep going.

Is this new pain worrying and feels like something is terribly off? Stop working out and figure out what it is.

The extreme mental toughness fanatics wouldn't stop at all costs (even if it led to making an injury way more serious).

The self-empathy believers would probably stop right when feeling the first pain, thus limiting their growth.

And this is how I see it now. I push myself as hard as I can in a smart way. Being consistent over the long term is way more important than any single challenge.
 
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^^^ this.

It looked the same for me. Then once I let go of that pressure, let myself feel compassion for myself, accepted and believed in myself, my self-confidence skyrocketed. I have lots of internal motivation now, and only sometimes need some mental toughness to get me going.

In hindsight, I also see how all my "you are a piece of shit you lazy bastard!" self-talk had 0 chance of success lol.

@MTF - this is such an important thread. Thank you!


May I ask, how did you actually go about building that compassion and belief? I feel I'm stuck with knowing the general direction but lacking drive, belief in myself
 

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The extreme mental toughness fanatics wouldn't stop at all costs (even if it led to making an injury way more serious).
Yeah, I got unnecessary injuries in the past because I just kept pushing through the pain. That's not mental thoughness... that's recklessness.

Imo it takes mental toughness to stop pushing forward when you start being reckless.

Working all nighters might get you more productivity in the next 24 hours but it will screw your performamce for the next couple days... so have the mental toughness to push you to your limits but also stop when you are way behind your limits (that might mean to stop working after 16 hours vs. pushing for an all nighter)

I also believe that you can have self empathy and mental toughness at the same time. If I feel resistance/ laziness about a task that is valueable I can acknowledge the laziness. I can acknowledge that laziness is part of being human and that it was important in our evolutionary development to save energy.
But I can remind myself that I am not a caveman anymore and that this feeling isn't appropriate atm.
Then I can tell myself that my future self will actually suffer if I give in to the laziness and because I don't just love myself but my future self I will not ignore the laziness and attack the task at hand.

This way the lazy part of you feels seen and doesn't rebel as much as you go on to attack the work infront of you.

It's like you have to be a good parent to yourself (your feelings / urges). You love your child and show your love but at the same time you know more about the world than your child. And that's why sometimes you have to make decisions that are in the best interest of your child in terms of the future. Be tough and loving at the same time.

I think many people treat themselves way worse that they would allow anyone else to treat them EVER.
How would you talk to a good friend that you want to see win? Try to talk the same way to you.
 
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MTF

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Yeah, I got unnecessary injuries in the past because I just kept pushing through the pain. That's not mental thoughness... that's recklessness.

Imo it takes mental toughness to stop pushing forward when you start being reckless.

Working all nighters might get you more productivity in the next 24 hours but it will screw your performamce for the next couple days... so have the mental toughness to push you to your limits but also stop when you are way behind your limits (that might mean to stop working after 16 hours vs. pushing for an all nighter)

I also believe that xou can have self empathy ans mental toughness at the same time. If I feel resistance/ laziness about a task that is valueable I can acknowledge the laziness. I can ackknowledge that laziness is part of being human anf that it was important in our evolutionary development to save energy.
But I can temind myself that I am not a caveman anymore and that this feeling isn't appropriate atm.
Then I can tell myself that my future self will actually suffer if I give in to the laziness and because I don't just love myself but my future self I will no ignore the laziness and attack the task at hand.

This way the lazy part of you feels seen and doesn't rebel as much as you go on to attack the work infront of you.

It's like you have to be a good patent to yourself (your feelings / urges). You love your child and show your love but at the same time you know more about the world than your child. And that's why sometimes you have to make decisions that are in the best interest of your child it terms of the future. Be tough and loving at the same time.

I think many people treat themselves way worse that they would allow anyone else to treat them EVER.
How would you talk to a good friend that you want to see win? Try to talk the same way to you.

100%. This is why I wrote this post on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/davidgoggins/comments/sklr6u View: https://www.reddit.com/r/davidgoggins/comments/sklr6u/youre_not_a_bitch_if_youre_smart_about_recovery/
 
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Kevin88660

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If you frame mental toughness as recklessly pushing physical and biological limit then of course it is not wise but also dangerous.

Even if you go to a military camp training, there is a lot of science being talked about ensuring seven hours of sleep, enough hydration, and proper warm up and cool down exercise.

I view mental toughness as getting rid of bullshit that shouldn’t be in your life the first place. You want to fight back against the public perception of what is seen as “normal”.

It is about helping you to accomplish what you should be doing (but fail to do so), not pushing to do what you shouldn’t do.

I certainly feel that you shouldn’t keep on running when your knees hurt. But what about not eating ice cream or calories dense fast food? What about not engaging in social media for non-work purposes? What about …(fill in the blank)

Science says you need 7-9 hours of good sleep. Proper hydration and nutrition, and personal medication if it applies and regular exercise.

Basic common sense and logic says you needs an income to survive in modern world to have basic accommodation.

Everything else, literally, is not a necessity.

Your leisure, holiday, chit chat with your best friend who has no interest in business, your desire for crappy fast food after a hard day’s work. You shouldn’t let non-essential desires get in your way in your pursuit of goals and personal success.

I view mental toughness as reconditioning against “what is normal and acceptable” by the society at large.

When you say I need a holiday at a different city/country after a period of hardwork. No you don’t really need it. You want it and you don’t need it. No part of the human biology or physiology dictates that.

When you say I want to eat crappy delicious food after a hard day’s work, well it is not a necessity. Most of the time in human history we hardly have anything to eat. And even the worst chicken breast with veggies kind of meals are actually delicacy. There are still children in third world countries today who drink a lot of water daily to help them cope better with the feeling of extreme hunger.

The definition of having “a balanced life” propagated by standards and norms of a developed economy is actually not normal at all. Human behaviors are driven by standards and comparison. “Toughness” within a large spectrum is highly subjective, depending on whom you compare with.
 
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MTF

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If you frame mental toughness as recklessly pushing physical and biological limit then of course it is not wise but also dangerous.

Even if you go to a military camp training, there is a lot of science being talked about ensuring seven hours of sleep, enough hydration, and proper warm up and cool down exercise.

I view mental toughness as getting rid of bullshit that shouldn’t be in your life the first place. You want to fight back against the public perception of what is seen as “normal”.

It is about helping you to accomplish what you should be doing (but fail to do so), not pushing to do what you shouldn’t do.

I certainly feel that you shouldn’t keep on running when your knees hurt. But what about not eating ice cream or calories dense fast food? What about not engaging in social media for non-work purposes? What about …(fill in the blank)

Science says you need 7-9 hours of good sleep. Proper hydration and nutrition, and personal medication if it applies and regular exercise.

Basic common sense and logic says you needs an income to survive in modern world to have basic accommodation.

Everything else, literally, is not a necessity.

Your leisure, holiday, chit chat with your best friend who has no interest in business, your desire for crappy fast food after a hard day’s work. You shouldn’t let non-essential desires get in your way in your pursuit of goals and personal success.

I view mental toughness as reconditioning against “what is normal and acceptable” by the society at large.

When you say I need a holiday at a different city/country after a period of hardwork. No you don’t really need it. You want it and you don’t need it. No part of the human biology or physiology dictates that.

When you say I want to eat crappy delicious food after a hard day’s work, well it is not a necessity. Most of the time in human history we hardly have anything to eat. And even the worst chicken breast with veggies kind of meals are actually delicacy. There are still children in third world countries today who drink a lot of water daily to help them cope better with the feeling of extreme hunger.

The definition of having “a balanced life” propagated by standards and norms of a developed economy is actually not normal at all. Human behaviors are driven by standards and comparison. “Toughness” within a large spectrum is highly subjective, depending on whom you compare with.

I like this take, thank you for putting it this way.
 

Black_Dragon43

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One approach that I’ve found very effective recently is using both mental toughness and self-compassion.

If I miss a workout for example, if I lack self-compassion I’ll start blaming myself and seeing myself as a failure, which just makes it a lot more likely that I will quit. If instead I have empathy for myself and forgiveness, I can look at what caused me to miss my workout, and remove that factor in the future so that it doesn’t happen again.

I think self-compassion is necessary for maintaining discipline and mental toughness in the long term.
 
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One approach that I’ve found very effective recently is using both mental toughness and self-compassion.

If I miss a workout for example, if I lack self-compassion I’ll start blaming myself and seeing myself as a failure, which just makes it a lot more likely that I will quit. If instead I have empathy for myself and forgiveness, I can look at what caused me to miss my workout, and remove that factor in the future so that it doesn’t happen again.

I think self-compassion is necessary for maintaining discipline and mental toughness in the long term.

Assuming that this is a real-world example, I see very, very few reasons for missing a workout that aren't bullshit excuses. In this case I'd rather be honest with myself and just tell myself I'm a bitch. Having empathy and forgiveness in this situation is just fostering a weakness.

Also, this:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YjAk_l71Vk
 

Black_Dragon43

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Assuming that this is a real-world example, I see very, very few reasons for missing a workout that aren't bullshit excuses. In this case I'd rather be honest with myself and just tell myself I'm a bitch. Having empathy and forgiveness in this situation is just fostering a weakness.

Also, this:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YjAk_l71Vk
Well perhaps I didn’t express myself well. Telling myself I’m a bitch doesn’t mean I don’t have self-compassion. I’m not against seeing the truth for what it is. If I failed, then I failed, no ifs or buts.

At the same time, here’s what I do mean:

Remember how I struggled with keeping my 3x high intensity workouts per week routine before, we spoke about it in the other thread. I went through something that can only be called a dark night of the soul… it got harder and harder to the point that one day I slipped and just couldn’t do it.

Normally, meaning in the past, what would happen is that I’d become depressed and see myself as a real failure. Then I would give up the habit for awhile (meaning a few weeks). Not this time.

This time I said OK, it happened, now what can I learn from it so that it doesn’t happen again? Where was I weak? And it turned out that what caused me to miss it was making big pictures in my mind of how hard it will be and how difficult it would be to endure, which cause me to procrastinate. Next time I did the opposite… I imagined how well I’d feel after finishing it, and how it would really be a piece of cake.

And sure enough, I only missed 2 days over 2 weeks and then I found it much easier to maintain the habit and never missed another day… after having passed through that dark night. But self-compassion, not getting stuck on blaming myself and focusing on how I could fix it was KEY to passing through that dark night.

So I agree with what you and Jocko say - there are no excuses. But what do you do when failure happens due to your own fault, of course? Do you get stuck in blaming yourself OR do you notice it’s your fault and dig deeper to identify why you failed and how you can fix it? This is what I see as self-compassion - being your own supporter and pushing yourself to excel (which is the opposite of the other reaction, giving up on yourself).
 
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