Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

[healthstatus]

Why are most software projects late and vastly over budget? The person requesting the software has no idea about software development and just puts together a vague list of 'wants'.

So the issue is specifications and product management.

So if you are in the software business but want to outsource it's development my advice is to learn some coding, keep up with technological trends and write your specifications with the functionality of the end user in mind (i.e. detailed UI mockups), not a list of 'features' and you don't care how they get there.

NO! You learn to sell. Then you can sell the idea to prospects, investors and startup incubators, and get the financing to get an experienced team to do it the right way.

You can't learn ALL the things that you have to have a fundamental to do a project these days. User interface design, database design, code, server software, webserver, cacheing, cloud computing, DNS redundancy and more... When MJ, Amazon, eBay and all the examples people want to throw out there, it was the wild west times of the Internet. We are way passed that.

 

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[Lgallion]

NO! You learn to sell. Then you can sell the idea to prospects, investors and startup incubators, and get the financing to get an experienced team to do it the right way.

Theoretically a viable plan IF the business is big enough to support all of those mouths to feed. I was responding to the original premise - I am going to have a program written. I believe both responses are valid depending on the scope of the potential business. Any web site that can be developed for 10k, however doesn't sound like something you could build a team around economically. Might be a great small business, but I don't know if investors could be attracted.

 

[dknise]

So the issue is specifications and product management.

I recently made a post urging people who want to run a software company but don't want to learn any code to at least read a book or something on software requirements. This forum's idea that you don't have to know ANYTHING about your product is insane. I keep hearing and "hire a good team to do it," but truly innovative projects, like Lgallion said, that will provide big market value aren't cheap. To develop a truly good product could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to hire a team.

Also, I'm one of the only people here that's been to a programming interview. You know who the stupidest people to interview with were? Recruiters. They knew absolutely nothing about software and therefore shouldn't have been hiring for software. How do you know what languages your programmer needs to know if you don't know what languages are available? If you expect to just toss that to any developer and let them decide, you just killed your entire product.

NO! You learn to sell. Then you can sell the idea to prospects, investors and startup incubators, and get the financing to get an experienced team to do it the right way.

You can't learn ALL the things that you have to have a fundamental to do a project these days. User interface design, database design, code, server software, webserver, cacheing, cloud computing, DNS redundancy and more... When MJ, Amazon, eBay and all the examples people want to throw out there, it was the wild west times of the Internet. We are way passed that.

Show me. Prove it. Who's out there starting hugely successful software companies with a limited budget and can't read a single line of code? I'm not saying become a Bill Gates or an expert in it... but at least be a Steve Jobs at it. He wasn't an amazing coder, but he knew enough so that he knew who to hire, what he was looking for, and how to tell them what to make.

This whole "I'm too lazy to learn anything about a product I want to make and everyone else can do it all no questions asked" is the most absurd thing I have ever, freaking, heard, in my entire life.

The types of clients you guys on the forum who are touting this are a software developers worse nightmare.

Sincerely,
- A professional software developer.

 

[AgonI]

dknise is right. You have no idea how much it helps being a developer to understand a project, or define what can be done from your idea and what can't. Being a developer is truly a huge skill in my opinion, but it always depends on how you plan to use it. Some(if not most) of the programmers just want to code all their life, while there are others who want to constantly create products and make big money instead of becoming a wage slave and coding all the time for other people's ideas.
I personally am a beginner but I never EVER plan to work as a software engineer in a company. IMO if you are a developer and settle for a wage instead of creating your own product means you are not seeing the big picture

 

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[healthstatus]

I recently made a post urging people who want to run a software company but don't want to learn any code to at least read a book or something on software requirements. This forum's idea that you don't have to know ANYTHING about your product is insane. I keep hearing and "hire a good team to do it," but truly innovative projects, like Lgallion said, that will provide big market value aren't cheap. To develop a truly good product could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to hire a team.

Yes, if you want to be excellent, there are costs. Learning how programming teams work, the steps of programming are things a good project manager should know.

Also, I'm one of the only people here that's been to a programming interview.

That is nowhere near correct.

You know who the stupidest people to interview with were? Recruiters. They knew absolutely nothing about software and therefore shouldn't have been hiring for software. How do you know what languages your programmer needs to know if you don't know what languages are available? If you expect to just toss that to any developer and let them decide, you just killed your entire product.

There is a huge difference between being an idiot that just throws money and accountability around and what I am talking about.

Show me. Prove it. Who's out there starting hugely successful software companies with a limited budget and can't read a single line of code? I'm not saying become a Bill Gates or an expert in it... but at least be a Steve Jobs at it. He wasn't an amazing coder, but he knew enough so that he knew who to hire, what he was looking for, and how to tell them what to make.

Frank Kern, Eban Pagen, Gary Vuynerchuck, all have very successful Internet businesses.

This whole "I'm too lazy to learn anything about a product I want to make and everyone else can do it all no questions asked" is the most absurd thing I have ever, freaking, heard, in my entire life.

There isn't a post in this thread that recommends that. The thread is about you cannot go from 0 to professional programmer in a few months. Take those few months and learn to market.

dknise is right. You have no idea how much it helps being a developer to understand a project, or define what can be done from your idea and what can't. Being a developer is truly a huge skill in my opinion, but it always depends on how you plan to use it. Some(if not most) of the programmers just want to code all their life, while there are others who want to constantly create products and make big money instead of becoming a wage slave and coding all the time for other people's ideas.
I personally am a beginner but I never EVER plan to work as a software engineer in a company. IMO if you are a developer and settle for a wage instead of creating your own product means you are not seeing the big picture

I am not a beginner, and YOU have no idea. There are plenty of coders that can't define a project in a way that anyone could ever understand it. Or coders that only write specifications based on their narrow scope of knowledge of a single language or server configuration.

 

[AgonI]

I am not a beginner, and YOU have no idea. There are plenty of coders that can't define a project in a way that anyone could ever understand it. Or coders that only write specifications based on their narrow scope of knowledge of a single language or server configuration.

well of course there is all kinds of people in this World. I am takling about the smart developers. And I bet even the dumbest programmer will be able to tell which part of the project can be done and which part can't, better than someone who has no programming skills at all.

Let's say we both have 0 money to invest and we are trying to create a software/app product which obviously involves/requires coding knowledge. Who is going to make it and who won't?(I am assuming you don't have any coding experience)

I very much believe that software engineering is the BEST field to be working on right now. I mean look at all the millionaires and billionaires. There are so many of them who have made all their money with a software company or an internet business.
Or how about this.Woud you rather study maths, business administration(wtf is this crap, anyone can learn it when they start a business), physics, advertising etc, OR programming?

If you are willing to devote the rest of your life trying to invent the next big thing, being a physicst might help you. You might invent the 'next electricity', but what if you don't?
Simply put,the sky is the limit for a person with programming experience/knowledge and entrepreneur spirit. Someone with this profile can build a million dollar product in less than a month. Who else can do that besides maybe a famous movie star or singer?
(and don't forget we are talking about having 0 budget. Even if you DID have the money to hire a team of developers, that still means the programmers are building it for you and they are making ton of money, while you might make 0$ depending on how good your idea is. The programmer always wins!)

 

[dknise]

Yes, if you want to be excellent, there are costs. Learning how programming teams work, the steps of programming are things a good project manager should know.

There is a huge difference between being an idiot that just throws money and accountability around and what I am talking about.

This thread gets linked to all the time. Whenever I see that, it's someone throwing money at other people to let them be accountable for the actual quality and utility of their software product.

Frank Kern

Frank Kern <--- self proclaimed guru who's business is selling the idea of business

Eban Pagen

Eban Pagan Launches His First Video Training For His New Guru Blueprints Program <--- self proclaimed guru who's business is selling the idea of business

Gary Vuynerchuck

Gary Vaynerchuk <--- not involved in software at all?

These guys didn't start successful software companies. I'm talking about companies that provide real value or services online. Starting a blog from a stock template or hiring someone to do a plug and chug dime a dozen implementation of a site is one thing. Having an idea that works with large, dynamic databases, data encryption methods, web services, web server management, front end user experience, and monthly service payments... and not wanting to know the first thing about any of it... is insane. If this scenario is not what you're suggesting, that's how others taking the advice of this thread are viewing it.

There isn't a post in this thread that recommends that. The thread is about you cannot go from 0 to professional programmer in a few months. Take those few months and learn to market.

The thread is called "Learning to program is STUPID!"

I am not a beginner, and YOU have no idea. There are plenty of coders that can't define a project in a way that anyone could ever understand it. Or coders that only write specifications based on their narrow scope of knowledge of a single language or server configuration.

And those are the ones people taking your advice are going to hire.

 

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[healthstatus]

Frank Kern <--- self proclaimed guru who's business is selling the idea of business


Eban Pagan Launches His First Video Training For His New Guru Blueprints Program <--- self proclaimed guru who's business is selling the idea of business


Gary Vaynerchuk <--- not involved in software at all?

These guys didn't start successful software companies. I'm talking about companies that provide real value or services online.

:sigh: I'm not, people here are saying they need to learn to program to put up an e-commerce store, to sell their services or ideas. These guys all made a killing on the Internet they outsourced split testing, video websites, membership websites, payment, shipping products. All without knowing code, but certainly knowing how to sell the heck out of ridiculous and not so ridiculous stuff, which continue to fund additional ideas and generate more and more money in a very fastlane fashion.

The thread is called "Learning to program is STUPID!"

And those are the ones people taking your advice are going to hire.

So your advice is for a 20-something that has no idea how to program to start teaching themselves now so they can have a mighty and all powerful software company in a couple of years??? I hope not. If someone is at the stage that they know zero about programming, they shouldn't be going into the software business. If they know how to solve a problem that can be automated, then they know enough about the process to write specs.

So again I will say this, if you don't know how to code and you are not willing to devote 3-5 years of practice, you are not going to write a professional level program after reading php books for 6 weeks. Learn how to make money (and then make some), then you can really start the process of funding your home run level idea by hiring a talented team that includes of User Interface Designer, Programmers, Project Manager, Attorney, Accountant and Masseuse.

 

[LamboMP]

you guys are missing healthstatus' point altogether. He is right on the money.

 

[AgonI]

So again I will say this, if you don't know how to code and you are not willing to devote 3-5 years of practice, you are not going to write a professional level program after reading php books for 6 weeks. Learn how to make money (and then make some), then you can really start the process of funding your home run level idea by hiring a talented team that includes of User Interface Designer, Programmers, Project Manager, Attorney, Accountant and Masseuse.

This is different from what you said initially, ie learning to program is not quite a big skill and it can be easily outsourced etc ...
But yeah, I agree with you here. Programming is not something that can be learned over the course of 6 weeks. And you definitely DON'T HAVE TO be a developer to launch an internet/software business, but it helps a lot.

 

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[healthstatus]

Let's say we both have 0 money to invest and we are trying to create a software/app product which obviously involves/requires coding knowledge. Who is going to make it and who won't?(I am assuming you don't have any coding experience)

With my 30 years of programming experience, I would A) go out and line up 5 -10 customers that will buy my product when it is launched. B) I will take the orders I have to an investor group and say look I have a great idea and it is so great people have already ordered it and I haven't started, want a piece of the action? C) I will use the investor money to put together a team of people that will execute my idea. I won't write a bit of code and will have a better product, more money in the bank and happy customers and investors. The key skill? Selling my idea to future customers and investors, also known as marketing. With marketing skills, I can fund ANY project I can convince a few people to buy once it is complete. Budget is irrelevant.

I very much believe that software engineering is the BEST field to be working on right now. I mean look at all the millionaires and billionaires. There are so many of them who have made all their money with a software company or an internet business.
Or how about this.Woud you rather study maths, business administration(wtf is this crap, anyone can learn it when they start a business), physics, advertising etc, OR programming?

You are wrong in that belief. I have 3 extremely talented software engineers working for me for 1/5th what I used to get paid when I worked for other people.

Simply put,the sky is the limit for a person with programming experience/knowledge and entrepreneur spirit. Someone with this profile can build a million dollar product in less than a month. Who else can do that besides maybe a famous movie star or singer?
(and don't forget we are talking about having 0 budget. Even if you DID have the money to hire a team of developers, that still means the programmers are building it for you and they are making ton of money, while you might make 0$ depending on how good your idea is. The programmer always wins!)

If they can't sell their idea, they don't have anything. Look at Apple, technically inferior products, fewer applications, less compatibility. But Jobs sure knew how to launch a product. There have been a lot of technically superior products/programs/systems that failed to much less capable ones because either the superior product didn't market well, or the less superior marketed fantastically.

 

[dknise]

With my 30 years of programming experience, I would A) go out and line up 5 -10 customers that will buy my product when it is launched... I have 3 extremely talented software engineers working for me for 1/5th what I used to get paid when I worked for other people.

How do you know they're talented and how did you know to hire them? Oh yeah, you're a programmer. How is someone with ZERO experience or knowledge of it going to put together a team as good as yours? My thoughts, they can't and they never will. I just figured out what you're doing... let's kill the competition together! haha

 

[LamboMP]

How do you know they're talented and how did you know to hire them? Oh yeah, you're a programmer. How is someone with ZERO experience or knowledge of it going to put together a team as good as yours? My thoughts, they can't and they never will. I just figured out what you're doing... let's kill the competition together! haha

Again, your missing the entire point of this argument.

A) go out and line up 5 -10 customers that will buy my product when it is launched. B) I will take the orders I have to an investor group and say look I have a great idea and it is so great people have already ordered it and I haven't started, want a piece of the action? C) I will use the investor money to put together a team of people that will execute my idea. I won't write a bit of code and will have a better product, more money in the bank and happy customers and investors. The key skill? Selling my idea to future customers and investors, also known as marketing.

There is your answer.

 

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[LamboMP]

Additionally, the title of this thread was to get people's attention, also known as marketing. He sure did a hell of a good job considering this thread has 10 pages of input

 

[dknise]

Additionally, the title of this thread was to get people's attention, also known as marketing. He sure did a hell of a good job considering this thread has 10 pages of input

:smx8:

 

[AgonI]

lol well I did not know you were a programmer! Go ask someone who has no programming skills AT ALL to set up a team of three software engineers and see what they'll come up with Probably two of the chosen ones will have problems turning on the computer lol

Lambo, I think you are missing our point too. We are trying to say the above, and I think it's pretty clear that what we're saying is right, what healthstatus is saying is right too. Do we all agree that a person who is not a programmer will not create a better team(or a better software product for this matter) than someone who has programming skills? If yes, I don't think it's necessary to discuss any farther because we just proved that Learning to program IS NOT STUPID.

 

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[healthstatus]

How do you know they're talented and how did you know to hire them? Oh yeah, you're a programmer. How is someone with ZERO experience or knowledge of it going to put together a team as good as yours? My thoughts, they can't and they never will. I just figured out what you're doing... let's kill the competition together! haha

I don't have 30 years of experience in the law, or accounting and those were on my list. Why don't you have to know how to do those things well to hire those positions? Also, someone with 0 experience isn't going to have a good software idea. I haven't gone fishing in 20 years, even if I go "Aha" I have a brilliant idea for a fishing lure, it probably has been done, or it probably won't work very well, I won't know the hot points of the market.

What I am trying to do is save newbies from the mantra of "You can learn to program in 6 weeks and create your own website, phone app, facebook competitor."

 

[Lgallion]

You know after reading through this (long) thread and considering both sides, I think this is definitely a three blind men and the elephant situation. Really everyone is talking about different elements of the same thing, and that thing is business. Let assume you are a great programmer or can hire great ones and either can't create your vision due to lack of funding or you build it but you can't successfully market it (maybe even the customers didn't exist in the first place). This is a clear failure of the business acumen that healthstatus is talking about. What if you have the money and the marketing but, because of lack of experience you hire idiots to build the core of your business (or you hire an idiot who hires idiots) then the results are the same - failure. Everybody is correct here, you have to know yourself OR be able to get the resources and be able to hire the right people (even if you don't know about the topic). Being able to hire & direct the right people is an immensely valuable talent and critical for business. Likewise all of that is wasted if there isn't a market or you can't reach the market in a cost effective manner, because marketing is yet another critical talent.

I find most successful business people I meet do have some base skills; pest control, software, medical imaging - something. However without the ability to fill in the 80% gap of the things we do not know well (accounting, marketing, programming, production, logistics, etc.) then you will fail just as badly. I have met a few who are just pure 'business' people, they can gather resources and put together a bakery one day and a space technology company the next. However I would argue they do have a specific skill and that skill is bringing together resources, managing them and being able to 'flash learn' what they need to know (so if they start a software company they may not know how to program but they learn the critical junction points of the process quickly).

So will knowing how to program (or at least something about it) make a successful software company, no not necessarily. Even if you get the programming right (and I think knowledge helps) they you have just completed a single component (in this case 'product') of a successful business. Fail in any of the rest and you fail in total.

 

[dknise]

You know after reading through this (long) thread and considering both sides, I think this is definitely a three blind men and the elephant situation. Really everyone is talking about different elements of the same thing, and that thing is business. Let assume you are a great programmer or can hire great ones and either can't create your vision due to lack of funding or you build it but you can't successfully market it (maybe even the customers didn't exist in the first place).

Ya, healthstatus's last post pretty much summed it up:

What I am trying to do is save newbies from the mantra of "You can learn to program in 6 weeks and create your own website, phone app, facebook competitor."

Well said.

 

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[Twiki]

Former developer, manager, consultant here... I'd have to agree with healthstatus' general gist here, except maybe with the distinction that learning to program isn't stupid... but thinking that you need to learn to program is stupid.

I think if someone needs to ask "Should I learn to program?" then they shouldn't bother --- if they need to wonder about that, they probably aren't cut out for it. I can't understand why someone like that would even consider starting up a software-focused business (is that the context of this thread)? People who make productive programmers teach themselves naturally through tinkering or just doing it, they don't need to be convinced.

Knowing how to program and understanding databases would certainly be an advantage but that doesn't necessarily mean the pursuit of that advantage would be the best use of time and effort. Anyway that is not even the same thing as learning how to manage a project, people or system architecture. Non-techies would be fooling themselves thinking that a few months of studying the tech side of it would make them more successful, compared to time that could have been spent talking to the market.

If the idea is that superficial studying of technology will help you work with the techies (or at least not be fooled by incompetent ones), I don't know if that's the case... when I was developing systems, the best people to work with (also the wealthiest and most successful) were those who would literally would draw something on a paper napkin and hand it to me and say, "I want it to do this and that", and then we'd build them a mutual fund processing system. The worst would be someone who read something about XML in a magazine somewhere and then would say something like "We should use XML for [completely inappropriate use-case and technically impossible anyway]". Either we would have to go back-and-forth explaining why this was stupid, or the tech folks would just nod agreeably and later on snicker about the cluelessness of the would-be developer, and ignore the suggestion anyway.

 

[ClintonSkakun]

Here's an idea. Lean to prototype. Get a sketch pad and some pens and start drawing out what your service looks like, how it's suppose to function and so on. Then if you feel you're on to something, design a launch page in photoshop or a free program.

I'm not against learning how to build a website that advertises the product or service. You can do that in dream weaver and a little design experience.

The hard part is developing applications. I agree with healthstatus. You have to at least know how the site's suppose to function and what the requirements are. I'm not saying hiring people is a replacement for learning, but it's a great way to leverage other people's knowledge and hard work. You need to know enough to know what you're getting so you don't get ripped off.

 

[dknise]

I'm not saying hiring people is a replacement for learning, but it's a great way to leverage other people's knowledge and hard work. You need to know enough to know what you're getting so you don't get ripped off.

That's what I'm trying to say! And not just how to not get ripped off, but how to hire a good team.

 

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[Skys]

I found this in a forum somewhere. Outsourcing, not as doable as you might expect for people with a normal salary (lets say, around 4k)
--------------------------

All answers till yet are really wise and Kudos to all, and that's true that one can't derive a potential development cost of a project (be it an App or any other software for that matter) unless business requirements (Target devices, OS versions, demography etc.), and Functional requirements (App features, USP feature, Server backed or static app, and much more!), and Level of QA you want; and also "Geography of development" is a factor.

Based on these factors, let me try and help you with the cost idea (assuming 1. one is outsourcing the project to a full time developer/ company in country like India + 2. Creative Artwork is not included in this + 3. For one platform, say iPhone):

1. A simple App with no backend (and no algorithm!), but just static functionality, with 5-6 screens - should be between 3 to 5K USD. An example could be a simple 'diet planner App", "photo frame app", "calculator app/ budget planner" etc.

2. A bit heavier App with a DB/ server (Exchange data via API), with backend dependent functionality, search/ data inputs/ result screens, with content being exchanged back and forth between client side and server, using camera/ gps functionality of the device and bit more, should be costing between 14 K to 20K (for launch version) (QA and Performance optimization are also a bigger job in such projects). Some examples - Map based Apps, Event search Apps, News/ Press Center Apps, small sales demo apps for enterprise, consumer-oriented apps, corporate identity apps, City guides/ restro-bar finding apps, taxi apps and so on). Please note that most of the utility apps fall in this category; and this is a competitive slot to be in; but it has gotten an active/ app lover user-base as well.

3. A complex App with a decent server side component (with lots of functionality, frequent content management, intelligent algorithms, religious QA/ Testing, using almost all resources of device including camera, gps, accelerometer; and then having features pertinent to iAds, inApp purchase, Video streaming lite/ premium versions, State-of-the art backend CMS panel and much more); such App (or better we call it complete mobile solution) should be costing starting from 25 K USD (for launch version with only features) to beyond 50K (for advanced versions after achieving good user base).
Some examples could be - a fully fledged "social media app", An enterprise App (probably mobile CRM thing or so), niche-targeting e-commerce App, Healthcare/ EMR Apps, Location-tracking apps and so on.

4. And if it is a high-graphics oriented game (2D/ 3D etc.)- Then it should be starting from minimum 20 K, and you can then go beyond 100 K (as you'd keep on increasing the features, stages, graphics, of the game; utilizing social media/ game center as well). Take any good game as an example, it must not have been done in price lesser than 20 K.

Bottom line is again the same, what kind of app you want to build and what kind of market you are looking to target, and how much concerned you are regarding the quality/ stand-out capability of your App!

And as someone said above, please note that development of a software covers mostly 25-35 % of the overall business-budget that you have,and rest of the money should be utilized to promote/ market your product, and for future upgrades/ updates and support & maintenance. The idea/ feedback you get from your user base are most valuable and should be catered if one needs growth. So consider this overall cost as well, unless you believe that your App idea is "unique" and will be a Holy hit just after you'd submit it. Sorry for the bit of pun, but even to achieve a "word of mouth" you've to invest a lot in the beginning!

And then, if you are hitting iTunes store - then it should be costing you around 199 $ or so annually to build/ test/ submit/ and sustain your product on the store; so this cost should be added as well (if one is going for a small time app first).

Again, I didn't cover "fee for artwork/ creative work" here; and in any of the slots given above except games - cost of artwork should be ranging between 10 to 25 % of the overall price. In case of Game, that could be more than 50 % sometimes.

Vote up if my answer helps you, or anyone else here.

Take care all...

Best Regards
- Sudeep
Mobile Strategist, Director of BizDev
Agicent Technologies
iPhone Mobile App Development Companies, Android App Development, Custom Software Development Company: Agicent
-------------------

Source: http://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-make-a-mobile-app

 

[FastNAwesome]

Just a nice pitch, that's all above post is. You can get local agency to work for that money. Regarding outsourcing, especially to India, these prices are blown way out of proportion.

Btw.it's enough to look at their 90's style website, and then rethink do you really wanna throw thousands at these guys?

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Btw.it's enough to look at their 90's style website, and then rethink do you really wanna throw thousands at these guys?

Bam!



....

 

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[The-J]

How much do you have to know about programming in order to successfully outsource a project and know what you're getting and how it's working?

It seems that in order to outsource the development of an application (mobile or otherwise), you'd want to know how it works and how the users are going to use it, right? As a programming newbie, what would I have to know in order to have someone build a piece of software made either for my service or to sell to other people?

 

[dknise]

How much do you have to know about programming in order to successfully outsource a project and know what you're getting and how it's working?

It seems that in order to outsource the development of an application (mobile or otherwise), you'd want to know how it works and how the users are going to use it, right? As a programming newbie, what would I have to know in order to have someone build a piece of software made either for my service or to sell to other people?

So glad you asked!

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/in...king-hire-software-developers.html#post237074

 

[Twiki]

I think you don't need to know programming in order to understand how it works, how it's built, how to make minor updates/modifications yourself, or how to not get ripped off.

Generally, I think you need to develop the sense of being able to get a feel for whether or not an app is complex, simple, or brainless. Then you can better assess the estimate that someone would give you for a site that would take a monkey to put up, or a system that really does require a lot of work and novel functionality.

This is kind of vague, I know, but I guess my point is that learning about things like algorithms, functions, pointers or SQL (which is what I think of when I think of programming) isn't necessarily going to help people do that. If you need to learn those things you can do it on a case-by-case basis as the need arises, likely as a result of debugging a bug or something.

Here's some pointers off the top of my pointy head:

• learn at least enough so you can do a View | Source and get some idea of what the heck is going on there
• understand concept of CSS, stylesheets --- important for customizing look/feel yourself without being fooled by someone telling you a look/feel update requires a massive amount of work (which it might, of course)
• understand potential uses of open source apps and widely available templates --- so you don't get ripped off by someone who is just slapping your logo and copy on a template
• if your app is data driven, understand basic data modeling (parent-child relationships between tables, unique IDs) --- get a sense of what normalization is, so that you don't get stuck with a horribly designed database that limits future functionality or makes accurate reporting impossible
• understand that hardly anything these days needs to be built completely from scratch (incl data models). even if your business idea seems new, novel, like a really big deal... that's great, but the programming and database operations are almost certain to be nothing special, read/write/delete take input validate input apply business logic update db show output call api etc... yawn.
• understand enough of scripting languages that you can make minor bug fixes, tweaks and change values of constants --- learn how to debug (setting up and stepping through a development environment, usually known as an "IDE" "JDK" "SDK" "something-DK")
• 100% absolutely positively understand how/where your app is hosted, ownership of the domain, and how to get source code for the thing you're paying for

Unless you're one of those weird people who reads technical manuals and books for fun, then these points would be a good start, I think. If you are one of those weird people then you probably have taught yourself this stuff already!

PS. I would also add that as an owner you should understand how to do your own QA of the system, make sure you have a structured plan for testing functionality that you're paying for --- it's too easy to sign off on something after "clicking around a bit" --- you will miss something important if you just do random clicking about.

 

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[Twiki]

So glad you asked!

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/in...king-hire-software-developers.html#post237074

Good suggestions in that post, pointing out the importance of clearly defined requirements. I think use-cases in the form of IF-THEN pseudocode are very "non-techie" friendly, a great skill for owners to develop, and much more useful than formalized Functional Requirements Specifications. I once worked on a system that had a 1300 page requirements document --- quite insane considering the team working on it had two developers. As the "team lead", I took 500 pages, and gave the other 800 pages to the other team member [evil laughter...]. The stupid thing was that this document was so humungous and overdetailed that no one on the client side wanted to go through it, so they just rubber-stamped and approved it without ever reviewing it anyway --- kind of like Congress with the tax code or healthcare legislation.

 

[Skys]

Anyway. After doing some research about this topic I do think the "learning to code is stupid"-camp, and the "learning to code is smart"-camp are to black and white. To many variables.

I think learning to code is the best way for some people, and for others, it won't be. Learning how to code might take some time but if you are still young, with an entrepreneurial dream but no clear vision what it might be and you are interested in learning how to code.. a thread like this might even stand in the way of becoming an technical entrepreneur in the future. Even if you fail as an entrepreneur, people who can program make a pretty good living.

Learning how to code as a means to an end is stupid. Learning how to code because you really want to learn how to code, that's something you should do instead of letting people tell you, you shouldn't, because it won't make you rich. Remember, chasing money is bad, filling needs is good. If you have the feeling you can do that by learning how to code, learn it.

To many variables to ever make this a clear cut discussion.