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How to detect deceitful people

Vermilion

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Man, its so though to trust anyone in today's world. I felt that on my skin last year more then ever. I was at 7 damn interviews for an IT job and I was promised at least on 4 of them that I am getting a job, I just need to wait a little bit for them to 'fix' some intern stuff in the company and they will let me know when I should start working. Nothing happened.

This year some stuff took off in a similar way with one dude that was 'impressed' by my work and he would be happy to hire me. Nothing happened.

Now one dude said he will connect me with couple of entrepreneurs in hope to get a job. To be honest I don't trust neither of them but its a worth a try, because my main goal is just to land that job and stick there to save some money and start my own shit, because this is definitely a sign that I need something on my own and I promised myself that I will be my own boss no matter what but I need some of that capital to start something. Also I started focusing in a last couple of months on finding a legit way to start earning some decent money with really small or 0 capital. By the end of this year I need to make some money flow by myself I don't want to predict some specific number right now but its a must for me. I am pissed. Just work hard and stay disciplined and money will come.

In the end we are definitely on our own no matter how big family we have or how many friends we have.
I think this picture summed it up nicely and I learned it the hard way, but I am glad I did this early in my life.

productmockup
 
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ApparentHorizon

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Game theory is good for this. In the tit-for-tat strategy, you start off assuming the person is good.

If they do something good for you, you reciprocate in kind. If they try/do take advantage you, you retaliate.

You will get the short end of the stick from time to time, but overall it produces positive results for most.

Tit-for-tat was pitted against other methods of interaction, and beat them by a long-shot.

Simplified as cooperative vs non-cooperative, and can be broken down as:
  • Completely trustworthy of everything
  • Not trusting anyone ever
  • Starting out not trusting
  • Starting out trusting
There is one caveat however, which I don't fully agree with. If someone screws you over, like taking the money and running in a deal. (Then you take them to court, as retaliation.) Later, they come back with a different piece of information which leads to a direct profit for you. You should continue reciprocating on the good deed. Also dubbed, forgiving tit-for-tat.
 
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Andy Black

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Man, its so though to trust anyone in today's world. I felt that on my skin last year more then ever. I was at 7 damn interviews for an IT job and I was promised at least on 4 of them that I am getting a job, I just need to wait a little bit for them to 'fix' some intern stuff in the company and they will let me know when I should start working. Nothing happened.

This year some stuff took off in a similar way with one dude that was 'impressed' by my work and he would be happy to hire me. Nothing happened.

Now one dude said he will connect me with couple of entrepreneurs in hope to get a job. To be honest I don't trust neither of them but its a worth a try, because my main goal is just to land that job and stick there to save some money and start my own shit, because this is definitely a sign that I need something on my own and I promised myself that I will be my own boss no matter what but I need some of that capital to start something. Also I started focusing in a last couple of months on finding a legit way to start earning some decent money with really small or 0 capital. By the end of this year I need to make some money flow by myself I don't want to predict some specific number right now but its a must for me. I am pissed. Just work hard and stay disciplined and money will come.

In the end we are definitely on our own no matter how big family we have or how many friends we have.
I think this picture summed it up nicely and I learned it the hard way, but I am glad I did this early in my life.

productmockup
Maybe this might help in your job search?
 

socaldude

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I have found that asking questions helps detect deceit.

How
What
When
Where
Why

Lies don't stand up to intense questioning.

Think of what happens in a police interrogation or in a courtroom.
 
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socaldude

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Instead of TRUST and verify, I don't trust anyone to start.

Yeah, I agree. I tend to feel the same way.

I don't trust anyone.

But as someone who is always working with new people I have to find out WHO to trust.

As entrepreneurs we work with partners, employees the public and customers. We can't just tell everyone to get lost. We have to know who to trust.

We have to know how to read people, which I have gotten pretty good at doing over the years.
 

prady

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The approach that works comparatively better for me is first to read the psychology behind "Types of Personalities". While there are billions of people on the earth, they only fall into a small number of personality types. And each group acts/behaves in a similar pattern.

So once I know what personality types there are, next step was to practice applying it in the real world to group people I meet into those "types". Once you get the hang of it, you would start doing a lot better in how to respond/deal with people, whom to trusts etc.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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Bekit

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Perhaps this thread could have worked for another thread...

How I (didn't) become a millionaire at 19
OK, let's use this as a case study and see what we can extract from it.

Observations:
  • Charismatic writer posts a super impressive story on "How I became a millionaire at 19."
  • Lots of people are taken in (including myself), both on and off this forum.
  • A few people are not. Let's see what tipped them off (below)...
  • After some time has passed, the truth comes out and word gradually spreads
What tipped some astute people off that it might not be true...
@MJ DeMarco said...
Funny how this story now is checking out to be possibly fiction and when it was originally posted, I was skeptical. Close to 200 likes and I was not one of them because such a gregarious story should have gregarious details. There was few.

@Alxander said...
I remember very clearly that he said "it was from a group of old people that pooled money together for an app idea they had, the funny thing was that they chose the price, I never gave them a quote..", found that very weird already...

@Guest User 450 said...
Great. I wish you the best. But: Can we as a forum stop encouraging transparent, valueless, unvetted peddling of "personal brands" thinly veiled as inspirational posts?

Narratives and stories are worlds apart. The proven, successful folks on this forum who've been kind enough to share have given narratives - reports of process, chronicles of events.

Stories are linear - with a beginning, middle and end. They are often complete bs. Useful and persuasive but bs. Life isn't linear, business isn't linear.

So, if someone with a brand to sell (unvetted people using their real name for example), tells a short story that hits all the trite notes of entrepreneurship (even if they're correct) and zero proof of process (I cold-called! - I figured out FB ads! - I learned how to cloak!) it smacks of internet marketing circular logic.

I'll leave the thread and sincerely hope op delivers gold.

Further Observations:
  • There's at least a kernel of truth to this. In post #19, the OP links to two articles from standard news organizations that told his story. I know this bolstered my belief in the story.
What else do people see in this story? What patterns does this fit into?

I'd love to figure out who @Guest User 450 is and interview them. How'd they know?
 
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Andy Black

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In addition to what @SteveO, I think having systemic methods in place will help. Don't rely on trust. If you have systems in place to verify, then you can be your trusting self and let the system do the work for you. The type of system depends on what type of business you are trying to conduct.
I used this method when raising my kids - have certain rules in place and don't depart from them (regarding other people), even if you trust the person, because trust really is not an issue. People can get you to believe what they want you to believe, but if I had a rule in place, and my kids knew about it, such as no one will pick you up from school besides me, your dad, or your grandparents, even in emergencies, then it wouldn't matter if someone tried to trick them into getting in the car, because they wouldn't do it. I had set up a system where my kids knew and understood that I would never send someone else to pick them up, no matter what, even if I was in the hospital.
In business, it could be something as simple as (like a thread I was reading the other day mentioned) not leaving money in PayPal (so that it can't get scammed back), or having a two-method verify system for things.
Yes. I’ve been burnt a few times by the good old “The cheque is in the post” chestnut.

“Oh, have you not been paid yet? Let me talk to accounts again.”

New system: “They’re not a client till the money is in my account.”

“No Mr salesman friend. You didn’t sign up two clients this week. You spoke to two prospects. The next stage in the lifecycle will be “Invoiced”, and after that they will become “Invoice Paid” which means they’re only now a client.


Another one: We don’t tie you into long running contracts. We build and own it. You rent it from us. If it works, you’ll want to keep renting it. If it doesn’t you won’t. No need for a contract about you having to keep paying us if it works.


@Primeperiwinkle ... wow... amazing and thought provoking write-up. Thank you for your honesty.


As for sociopaths, psychopaths, and narcissists - I’ll have to Google those.

I do know I’ve worked for super charismatic bosses, who then turned on me. By that stage I was old enough and wise enough to see it coming. But I drank the cool-aid for a few months before I started seeing the chinks in the exterior.


Now... I am curious about something. I go out of my way to help folks. I’m generous to a T and would give someone the shirt off my back. I’ve personally PM’d over 2,000 people in this forum with a wee hello that often results in me pointing them in the right direction.

But I *don’t* get anyone overstepping the mark. I don’t get long walls of text complaining about their life and then asking for help.

I’m friendly and generous, and no-one takes advantage.

Other people are friendly and generous and end up taken advantage of (by long walls of text that steal their time, hopefully not in any other ways).

I’m curious why that is. Someone said I maybe come across more professsional than them? Someone else thinks it’s the way I have conversations, and how I link to other things to read (kind of like giving people homework).

I ask because I wonder if there’s anything I’m doing that may help folks who are generous by nature from being taken advantage of.
 

Andy Black

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I think like any skill, you have to "build it" and get a "gut" instinct.

Most times, this means you have fallen pry to 1 or more of these type of deceitful people.

Could be family members ( relatives that take advantage of you ), bosses or co-workers, scams you got involved in, business partnerships that broke apart, divorced spouse or ex, etc.

While a lot of advice in this thread is good, I feel you need to experience it yourself to truly build up that skill.

Personally, I trust no one ( to a degree ).

Instead of TRUST and verify, I don't trust anyone to start. Trust then has to be earned which allows me to not have to verify. Luckily ( or unluckily depending on your view point ), I've been burned enough I just don't need to verify or trust upfront.

Not claiming a victim status here, I am well aware what happened before in my life. But now I can spot a deceitful person a mile away. If you wanna get something from me, you have to gain my trust first. Not going to give it out and then verify later. Nope.

I'm sure people can pick apart why this is not a good method, but it's worked and fits me perfectly and I've had 0 issues since implementing it.

.
Hmmm... I’m the same I think. I assume everyone is good but don’t trust fully till someone has earned it.

I don’t try to make people do anything. I just observe what they do and place them in various boxes.

I have lots of little red flags, all scars from getting burnt on the stove myself.

And I see sales as a screening process. The first purchase is a test, both ways.
 

Andy Black

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How I know to trust people or not:

1. Who made the proposition?
Did this person come to me or did I go to them with the idea? I immediately have distrust if the idea comes from the outside in.

2. How does this person know me?
If I meet someone at a business meetup, I’m pretty skeptical of their intentions. If I make friends with them at a random bar or somewhere unrelated to what the partnership would be based around, then I have more trust.

3. I expect everyone to be selfish so I trust situations more than people.
Do they gain much by cheating me and will they get away with it? I don’t care if it’s my own family, I don’t put myself in that position. One situation could have so little leverage and so much risk I would trust my family and another situation could have so little risk and so much leverage I’d trust OJ Simpson to do right by me. Bad people are usually only bad when it’s opportunistic. And good people all do bad things in the right circumstances. Trust situations a bit more than people.

4. I don’t trust ambitious people so much.
Greed makes us do some crazy things. Crazy good and crazy bad. I watch out for ambitious people. Regular, average and content people are less likely to steal and cheat you.
Something I don’t trust is FREE.

I’d much rather pay $10/mth for some invoicing software than get it free.

I’d much rather pay for a 1 hour course on Udemy than watch 5 hours of free videos on YouTube.
 
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Andy Black

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Perhaps this thread could have worked for another thread...

How I (didn't) become a millionaire at 19
I remember that thread. I read some articles it linked to and thought, “Cool. Sounds legit.”

I didn’t dig any deeper. Why? Because it was a nice story and I wasn’t going to do anything different just because I’d read it. My head wasn’t going to be turned by any shiny objects, and I just hoped it was true that someone has “made it”.

No need for me to do any verification for myself, because I’m busy doing my own thing.

If you find yourself getting swayed by someone’s words or story, then yeah, you’d best check the source.

For me, they’ve got to be someone going in the direction I’m heading, and I’ve also got to believe their moral compass isn’t skew.

Awesome salesman but been to prison for fraud? Errr, no thanks. I’ll learn from someone who’s values I admire.


“How you do anything is how you do everything.”

Rude to the waitress?

Consistently late paying?

Complaining?

Pointing fingers?

OR

Polite to the waitress?

Paying on time?

Looking on the bright side?

Accepting responsibility and getting on with it?
 

Suzanne Bazemore

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Nice recap of people's BS meters, @Bekit.

Something I don’t trust is FREE.
I am also not interested in free, because it is usually free in exchange for my time, which I value more than money, so it's really not free at all (like vacation pitches).

“How you do anything is how you do everything.”

Rude to the waitress?
I was just telling my kids last week that when they date, I hope they have a bad experience at a restaurant so they can see how their date treats the wait staff.
 

Mattie

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The best way is listening to words they use, how they manipulate emotions, thoughts, and words whether out loud or in the written word. Words are always the most powerful tool used in deception. Usually their body language also gives clues while they're talking. The way they move, even some people sweat, the wrinkles in their face gesture. I believe the best way to learn is doing observation in a small local bar. If you just sit there and watch the masculine and feminine you can tell a lot just by watching them. You'll always find deception going on in a social establishment like this.

I knew this by the age of 22 in my hometown. We had lawyers, tourists from Chicago, different businessmen. They buy you a drink of something, tell you they'll let you drive their fancy car, give you some money to go shopping, invite you on the yacht. My friend was stupid that way and brought me along once because she was scared. I told her to stop getting herself into these situations. I don't know how I was smart and other girls in my area weren't. But the world will promise you anything for a price to entertain. There's hustlers in every social class. They just have different agendas, goals, motivations, and intentions. The idea is figuring out what they're after, since they wouldn't be having a conversation with you unless you have some value to meeting a need. People will say just about anything.

As the feminine, I have to say...it's like any businessman no matter what social class, whether masculine of feminine, when people speak to you, they're trying to sell something to you to gain something. If there wasn't something to be gained, they wouldn't be having a discussion with you.
 
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Suzanne Bazemore

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when people speak to you, they're trying to sell something to you to gain something. If there wasn't something to be gained, they wouldn't be having a discussion with you.
I can see that, because every behavior has a motivation, but the distinction lies in this: is what they are trying to gain mutually beneficial, such as friendship, being helpful, or even just having an interesting conversation, or is what they are trying to gain selfish and potentially harmful to the other person?
 

Ernman

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4. I don’t trust ambitious people so much.
Greed makes us do some crazy things. Crazy good and crazy bad. I watch out for ambitious people. Regular, average and content people are less likely to steal and cheat you.
Don't take this wrong Johnny boy, but does this mean you don't trust folks on this forum? Aren't most of here ambitious?
 

Ernman

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I was just telling my kids last week that when they date, I hope they have a bad experience at a restaurant so they can see how their date treats the wait staff.
This is great! I frequently watch potential business relationships at restaurants or other reaction inducing situations. People tend to react true to their nature because they don't have time to think about how they should act. The dining experience also lets you see how a person acts towards those in a service relationship. These can be very telling.
 
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Great thread!


I struggle with trusting people, and often times I trust too much. I wonder if people with ill intentions pick up on that and exploit it? I’ve read that narcissists are able to detect that. I find it mildly fascinating since I completely suck at reading anyone, good or bad.


Anyway, this “friend” I had known for 5 years talked me into selling him a car on payments so he could get to a “new job”. Except he never paid a dime. He gave this big story about how he had a job lined up 2 states away and would send money as soon as he got settled.


I felt uneasy about it but stupid me went along with it. He packed up his wife and kids and headed off. He would check in ever so often and promise money was on the way but nothing ever showed. By this point our only contact was through FB, so one day I’d had enough of his bullshit and went to message him. I was blocked. Went to message his wife. Also blocked. I messaged him from a 2nd account and he said he had no idea what car I am talking about and to stop being a victim. That really pissed me off. I don’t know if HE is a textbook narcissist, but he definitely is a conniving, manipulative mooching loser. Always bumming a $20 for booze and chew, even diapers, with promises to repay and always failing to do so. He is a man child, never taking responsibility for anything. It was always someone else’s fault why he couldn’t hold the 15 some jobs he had in the time i’ve known him. That was another red flag I ignored, however he was pretty good at hiding some of it. He had a business for about a year and he was a master bullshitter when he would talk to people about how big his operations were. His entire business was a joke. Since customers didn’t have a reason to be at his “facility” no one suspected anything.



Around the time he talked me into the car was when he had a huge blowout with his dad. They were living with him and I can only guess dad got tired of his sons incompetence and refusal to man up and take care of his family so he kicked them out.





If you were to ask why I kept this pos around, I don’t know. I’ve asked myself that often. Low self-esteem perhaps? Lonely, just wanting someone to bs with, even if they’re toxic? I know I am a bit of a push over which I am working on. Since him another manipulator wormed his way into my life and I recognized what was going on and sent him on his way.





Maybe I’m petty but I get some small satisfaction knowing he will never amount to anything. All he knows is how to bs and con people for a few bucks. He will always be chasing a dollar. They’re up to their eyeballs in payday/title loans. Last I knew he was still married, which surprises me why she’d put up with it, but it’s not my circus nor monkeys.



Something else that bothers me and I wondered if it’s a “grooming/trust building” act? Early on I bought material from him in cash and had overpaid him by $20. He caught it and returned it. Is that something a con artist would do to make the other person go “Oh, he is honest and trustworthy?”





Like others have said, I think it just takes exposure/experiences to recognize and kick bullshit out of your life. Having been home schooled I’d say I’m a late bloomer.



Does one ever “perfect” the art of detecting bs and deception? I don’t know. I’ve been sick for the past 3 weeks so I’ve watched copious amounts of American Greed and I’m surprised by what appear to be otherwise intelligent people who make very good money getting scammed by “investors”, con artists and piles of shit posing as human beings. Lonnie Scruggs was one that got scammed. For 500K if I remember correctly. Just really unfortunate. I’ve never met the guy but he seems super genuine.



I wish you great success on your journey.
 

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I can see that, because every behavior has a motivation, but the distinction lies in this: is what they are trying to gain mutually beneficial, such as friendship, being helpful, or even just having an interesting conversation, or is what they are trying to gain selfish and potentially harmful to the other person?

Very good questions. I don't believe you can be in any relationship what so every not be wounded in some shape for form. It is purely motivation and intention. You can be entirely helpful and enable others from growing, maturing, and not allowing them to be self-sufficient and self-reliant. Conversations are kind of funny thing in my experience. Not to bring Introversion up, but it's just my observation in culture if they lean towards specific Introverted personality types, they tend to think some forms of conversation are superficial, boring, and not stimulating to the mental process or intellect. This is where I get into trouble anyway in daily conversations with just anyone.

I do laugh because as one of my friends stated who is an ENFP, "I think people get intimidated by you because you're so intelligent and smart. " And ESFP last year told me, "I don't know anyone who talks like you, ad knows so much." And an ESTJ, "I"m too olld to deal with your Intellect."

I'm all good in having conversations with those who tend to be in the sciences, technology, philosophy, and I don't want to put people in a box and say there aren't those types who are more intellectual, but they're more the Entrepreneurs in here who are higher evolved and conscious and business oriented. Where in the lower consciousness, I over load them because they don't want to think and escape reality no matter what their personality type.

I can speak all day about all kinds of topics, for conversational starters, but usually they want to stick to how is the weather, this food tastes good, this hair color, make up, piece of clothing, or furniture is nice. And I just have to sit back and say nothing. And than I'm projected as being too shy, lazy, or not socializing. lol Just by allowing them to be themselves.

Usually no one interacts with me unless they want some kind of information to solve a problem in their life, or the opposite tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because I polarize them and tell them too much information they don't want to hear about Entrepreneurship, business, being responsible, doing something with their life. Finding purpose.

I usually get told, "That's what you get for being so smart." "You're too Smart and Intelligent." And I do go overboard educating myself, because it stimulates my brain.

Relationships are just kind of weird in general. The masculine and the feminine want "Love" , "Money", and "Attention". And what will you do for that love, money, and attention in a positive or negative way in interactions with the masculine and feminine.

Entertainment is number one escapism in relationships. If you speak about Entertainment people will listen. If you speak about real life responsibility they run. The five senses: Sight, Smell, Touch, Taste, and Sound tend to be manipulated the easiest. And really does make the brain lazy.
 

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Maybe I've missed it, but many of the points discussed in this thread are covered in the book, Influence, that some of us have been reading. Throughout the thread, people have brought up situations that could have been lifted right out of the book. If you haven't read it yet, I highly recommend it.
 
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Don't take this wrong Johnny boy, but does this mean you don't trust folks on this forum? Aren't most of here ambitious?

I figured that would be mentioned. But to be completely honest I think it’s good advice to be more careful around ambitious people than normal people.
 

Suzanne Bazemore

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Does one ever “perfect” the art of detecting bs and deception? I don’t know.
@Excalibur, I think that once someone has slipped into your trust and is your friend, then your guard is down. Probably most people have been burned by a friend, so don't be too hard on yourself. I once bought a car from a friend - a really close friend. I paid her a fair price, and that car was the most terrifying drive home that I have ever had. I thought, I am not letting my baby drive this car. I drove it straight to the mechanic - it had a messed up fuel injector. I was trying to drive it home in traffic while it lurched and couldn't accelerate. Terrifying. Drive. My friend was old and probably not thinking clearly, so I don't blame her, but you can't tell me she didn't know that it was terrifying to drive. Too bad we didn't know all of this was going to happen, @Excalibur, because I could have given you a fair price for your car for my daughter, and we could have given your car-stealing friend the Lurching Lemon.
 

Oilman

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I'm running short on time but here's mine:

Grew up with no dad.
Had successful careers (if you believe them) but are now stuck in dead end jobs.
When working with these types of people items seem to disappear but it's never their fault.
Strangers keep calling your workplace asking for the person in question.
Doesn't want to mingle with the elderly (the successful elderly while not perfect can spot BS a mile away).
Is an absolute authority on everything but only when they are 50% odds. I.E. Mayweather will beat Pacquiao.
Mood swings. The deceitful people I worked with were generally very charismatic but every now and then they seem like they had a night where they had too much coke.

Like one poster stated Sociopath Next Door is a must read. These people sometimes lie their way into prestigious medical jobs.
 
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Devampre

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It's tough to trust anyone completely. And you should always be a little wary about the claims of another.

But, you need to trust people eventually otherwise you'll have no business.

If you are doing a major deal, hiring someone or associating yourself with someone that will impact you significantly. Then Do your research! Get as much information you can on them. Look online, contact public records, talk to other people in there network, etc.
 

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