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How many of you guys pay virtually nothing in taxes due to write offs?

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SteveO

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I know you can only get taxed in capital gains depending on how long you hold it for now.
Not exactly true. You get taxed on short or long term gains depending on intent combined with time held.
 
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And in unrelated news, IRS is offering a complimentary audit to all who posted on this thread about avoiding taxes.
:rofl:
 

DoingDeals

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Not exactly true. You get taxed on short or long term gains depending on intent combined with time held.
Oh yeah, that's true too.
And in unrelated news, IRS is offering a complimentary audit to all who posted on this thread about avoiding taxes.
:rofl:
There's been people who have lost their business & livelihoods, because the IRS was wrong. Their lives were destroyed, but the government does not apologize or offer to replace what they've taken away.
 

Kevin88660

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No.

I mean, maybe you can get away with this for a bit, but foreign control rules have gotten a lot more strict over the last couple years. If you have control over a foreign corp, then all that income gets pulled back into the US. You even put "owner" in quotes, do you think the IRS won't see right through it?

Further, if you don't report it and the government finds out, penalties start at $10k per missed filing (plus the penalties and interest you'll face on the tax itself).

Are there ways around it? Maybe, but you'd probably have to have a pretty high income for the compliance costs to make sense.
FATCA!
 

BizyDad

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Listening to the Kyle Keegan Radio Show & it will convince anyone taxation is theft.
100% correct, taxation is theft from a morality perspective, or at least income tax.

Depends on the moral perspective.

One could make a utilitarian argument for the moral imperative of a moderate level of taxation. One simplistic argument: There is a component of "the greater good" to be had from a certain level of government (roads, shared defense, a working judiciary) and it follows then, from taxation.

A duty based ethical framework (ask not what your country can do for you...) can also support the morality of taxation, even if you slap a statist label on this argument, it doesn't negate the ethical or moral approach of it.

Of course there are other duty based moral arguments which oppose taxation. Perhaps there is no one size fits all approach, which is why I chuckled when I read "100% correct".

I subscribe to the belief that paying taxes is an imperative. "Render unto Caesar", to me, is a cut and dry take on it.

And as a Christian it is obvious to me Jesus wouldn't advocate falling victim to a sinful act, so no, taxation is not and cannot be theft as theft is a sinful act.

So I would pay 30% or 5% or 60% if that was the law of the land. Not because I'm a statist, rather because God said to, which is my basis for morality. No gun to my head needed.

I could quote other scripture, or even explore the moral distinction between the imperatives "render unto Caesar" vs "render unto God" but the forum bans religious discussion, so I'll keep this focused on the moral question more generally.

How much would I pay if it was voluntary? Probably none and then I'd vote to oust the politicians who put that lunacy in place.

I believe there is an "optimal" level of tax, I believe the right of a government to levy taxation is biblical, legal, and just, and I believe it takes a God level brain to calculate exactly what that optimum level is.

As a citizen in a representative democracy, I'll vote for people who want to lower my taxes, and I vote against those who believe we should eliminate them. I look on the latter with suspicion. All else equal, if I had to choose between someone promising a moderate increase in taxes vs someone who wants to eliminate the IRS and abolish income tax, I'd vote for the former and consider them the more honest and level headed of the two. (Which is not to say politicians are actually honest or level headed).

I respect that others have different moral codes, but I can easily make a few cogent moral arguments in favor of taxation.

two things are certain: death and taxes.

Edit: you can optimize for tax or delay it, but never avoid it.

I've learned some US income/cap gains taxes can be legally avoided*. Ironically enough, by dying.

Here's a simplistic example.

Take an appreciating asset (say a portfolio of stocks or real estate). Let's say it's worth $10M. Borrow against it, say a line of credit of $5M. Live on the $5M for the rest of your life as the $10M asset(s) continue to appreciate.

Die.

Upon death, the basis in your asset(s) goes to current market rate. With the stepped up basis, a sale generates no, or at most a negligible, taxable event. Your heirs/estate can sell without income/cap gains tax and pay off the loan. The outstanding loan amount lowers the value of the overall estate so you may be able to avoid some/all death tax as well, depending on the size of the estate and other factors.

*Usual disclaimers for not being a tax expert, this is just an illustration, this is not tax advice, there are many many risks inherent in this example which are not discussed, it's probably a dumb idea, good luck finding a bank to do a perpetual line of credit, consult your professionals, yadda yadda, it's at least possible...
 

thechosen1

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Newsflash:

Paying taxes doesn't make you moral and it doesn't improve society.

Most of your taxes pay the salaries of government workers and go into failing entitlement programs.

No, they are not "building a better world" or whatever hot garbage people tell you on the news.

Is there some minimum taxation required to keep society from plunging into the dark ages? Yes.

We are way beyond that.

But like Jesus said, every sinner can be forgiven: EVEN THE TAX COLLECTOR <3
 

Kak

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Depends on the moral perspective.

One could make a utilitarian argument for the moral imperative of a moderate level of taxation. One simplistic argument: There is a component of "the greater good" to be had from a certain level of government (roads, shared defense, a working judiciary) and it follows then, from taxation.

A duty based ethical framework (ask not what your country can do for you...) can also support the morality of taxation, even if you slap a statist label on this argument, it doesn't negate the ethical or moral approach of it.

Of course there are other duty based moral arguments which oppose taxation. Perhaps there is no one size fits all approach, which is why I chuckled when I read "100% correct".

I subscribe to the belief that paying taxes is an imperative. "Render unto Caesar", to me, is a cut and dry take on it.

And as a Christian it is obvious to me Jesus wouldn't advocate falling victim to a sinful act, so no, taxation is not and cannot be theft as theft is a sinful act.

So I would pay 30% or 5% or 60% if that was the law of the land. Not because I'm a statist, rather because God said to, which is my basis for morality. No gun to my head needed.

I could quote other scripture, or even explore the moral distinction between the imperatives "render unto Caesar" vs "render unto God" but the forum bans religious discussion, so I'll keep this focused on the moral question more generally.

How much would I pay if it was voluntary? Probably none and then I'd vote to oust the politicians who put that lunacy in place.

I believe there is an "optimal" level of tax, I believe the right of a government to levy taxation is biblical, legal, and just, and I believe it takes a God level brain to calculate exactly what that optimum level is.

As a citizen in a representative democracy, I'll vote for people who want to lower my taxes, and I vote against those who believe we should eliminate them. I look on the latter with suspicion. All else equal, if I had to choose between someone promising a moderate increase in taxes vs someone who wants to eliminate the IRS and abolish income tax, I'd vote for the former and consider them the more honest and level headed of the two. (Which is not to say politicians are actually honest or level headed).

I respect that others have different moral codes, but I can easily make a few cogent moral arguments in favor of taxation.



I've learned some US income/cap gains taxes can be legally avoided*. Ironically enough, by dying.

Here's a simplistic example.

Take an appreciating asset (say a portfolio of stocks or real estate). Let's say it's worth $10M. Borrow against it, say a line of credit of $5M. Live on the $5M for the rest of your life as the $10M asset(s) continue to appreciate.

Die.

Upon death, the basis in your asset(s) goes to current market rate. With the stepped up basis, a sale generates no, or at most a negligible, taxable event. Your heirs/estate can sell without income/cap gains tax and pay off the loan. The outstanding loan amount lowers the value of the overall estate so you may be able to avoid some/all death tax as well, depending on the size of the estate and other factors.

*Usual disclaimers for not being a tax expert, this is just an illustration, this is not tax advice, there are many many risks inherent in this example which are not discussed, it's probably a dumb idea, good luck finding a bank to do a perpetual line of credit, consult your professionals, yadda yadda, it's at least possible...
I’m going to try to pick this apart a little. Your line of beliefs isn’t the monopoly on Christian thought.

The Bible isn’t a binary book, it has tons of gray area… Literally the majority of how people choose to live by the scripture is interpretation. That’s what your opinion is… Interpretation. Just like a plethora of other interpretation.

You read- Render unto Cesar what is Cesar’s.

You interpret- It is morally good to pay taxes. And somehow not theft.

I interpret- Jesus saying yes, I understand your objection to the theft of your assets, but you shouldn’t place your hopes in your own resources anyway. This government currency is literally nothing compared to God. It was almost dismissive of the concept of government money. He is saying “give him what’s his.” Not because it’s moral, but almost a “who cares in the scheme of things.” I read it like… Stay out of trouble with them because you have work to do with me.

Let me be clear. One can easily obey that scripture, to the word written, and just pay their taxes… Like I do… While simultaneously knowing exactly what it is, theft.

The context of that is that Cesar was the person minted on the coin. It was government issued currency of the day. The tax collectors at the time were crooked and kept a lot of the money for themselves. It was clearly theft, yet Jesus, in response employed, basically, the “turn the other cheek.”

Joseph unjustly became a slave, was imprisoned unjustly, and was led to be the best slave and prisoner he could be. Do the best with your circumstances. He became some kind of governor thereafter. Does that make somehow his enslavement moral? No.

And before you go straight to Romans 13, like you always do… It says to submit, not agree with, not stay put under oppressive regimes and be oppressed. The Bible doesn’t preclude someone from desiring better out of their government. It basically once again says stay out of trouble because you have more important work to do.

The Bible is FULL of battles and wars between God’s people and unjust governing authorities. So it’s not going to simultaneously tell the warring people to both war and to submit to authority. There is once again gray area

Nehemiah 5 discusses oppressive taxation to the point where people were mortgaging their homes and still not coming up with enough taxes. It literally defines taxation as slavery. Theft of one’s labor and life.

Moses skirted the law when they were killing the babies. Jesus, Mary and Joseph fled Herod and his oppressive regime. It’s a pretty common theme of the Bible that human government sucks.

Taxation is 100% theft. Stealing half of what one puts into the world is oppression. We are all victims of theft. Choosing between losing what freedom I have or surrendering my money, doesn’t make it much of a choice. There is nothing voluntary about it. Render unto Caesar doesn’t change that.

Even Samuel in Chapter 8 warns of a human kingdom. The people evidently wanted to be ruled. In 8:17 he flat out tells them you will end up being the king’s servants if you do this. Basically, he was telling the people they are choosing the wrong god, a human.

The way we address modern human government is verging on false idol worship. Most people have replaced God with government. There is a reason golden statues are a problem LOL.

I can easily justify my questioning of human authority with my Christian faith.
 
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DoingDeals

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You forgot government can tax retroactively, they'll come after the inheritance of assets in the estate.

That is correct most taxes are mishandled by the government appointed officials we elected.
 

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Newsflash:

Paying taxes doesn't make you moral and it doesn't improve society.

Most of your taxes pay the salaries of government workers and go into failing entitlement programs.

No, they are not "building a better world" or whatever hot garbage people tell you on the news.

Is there some minimum taxation required to keep society from plunging into the dark ages? Yes.

We are way beyond that.

But like Jesus said, every sinner can be forgiven: EVEN THE TAX COLLECTOR <3
I agree with everything, but that minimum taxation plunging into dark ages thing. The notion of the government being the one that keeps us out of dark ages is my objection.

The individuals who took responsibility for the betterment of the world around them via entrepreneurship are the ones that got us here, albeit slower, because of government.
 

thechosen1

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I agree with everything, but that minimum taxation plunging into dark ages thing. The notion of the government being the one that keeps us out of dark ages is my objection.

The individuals who took responsibility for the betterment of the world around them via entrepreneurship are the ones that got us here, albeit slower, because of government.
Fair enough. I agree with you on that last point.

I just like my local government, police, etc. (when they're behaving and stopping the real -obvious, like murders and robberies- bad stuff).

But I'm not a fan of Giant Soulless Uncle Sam.
 
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Kak

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Fair enough. I agree with you on that last point.

I just like my local government, police, etc. (when they're behaving and stopping the real bad stuff).

But I'm not a fan of Giant Soulless Uncle Sam.
My neighborhood has a private police force. They work for us and they know it. Much better.
 
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eliquid

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I’m going to try to pick this apart a little. Your line of beliefs isn’t the monopoly on Christian thought.

The Bible isn’t a binary book, it has tons of gray area… Literally the majority of how people choose to live by the scripture is interpretation. That’s what your opinion is… Interpretation. Just like a plethora of other interpretation.

You read- Render unto Cesar what is Cesar’s.

You interpret- It is morally good to pay taxes. And somehow not theft.

I interpret- Jesus saying yes, I understand your objection to the theft of your assets, but you shouldn’t place your hopes in your own resources anyway. This government currency is literally nothing compared to God. It was almost dismissive of the concept of government money. He is saying “give him what’s his.” Not because it’s moral, but almost a “who cares in the scheme of things.” I read it like… Stay out of trouble with them because you have work to do with me.

Let me be clear. One can easily obey that scripture, to the word written, and just pay their taxes… Like I do… While simultaneously knowing exactly what it is, theft.

The context of that is that Cesar was the person minted on the coin. It was government issued currency of the day. The tax collectors at the time were crooked and kept a lot of the money for themselves. It was clearly theft, yet Jesus, in response employed, basically, the “turn the other cheek.”

Joseph unjustly became a slave, was imprisoned unjustly, and was led to be the best slave and prisoner he could be. Do the best with your circumstances. He became some kind of governor thereafter. Does that make somehow his enslavement moral? No.

And before you go straight to Romans 13, like you always do… It says to submit, not agree with, not stay put under oppressive regimes and be oppressed. The Bible doesn’t preclude someone from desiring better out of their government. It basically once again says stay out of trouble because you have more important work to do.

The Bible is FULL of battles and wars between God’s people and unjust governing authorities. So it’s not going to simultaneously tell the warring people to both war and to submit to authority. There is once again gray area

Nehemiah 5 discusses oppressive taxation to the point where people were mortgaging their homes and still not coming up with enough taxes. It literally defines taxation as slavery. Theft of one’s labor and life.

Moses skirted the law when they were killing the babies. Jesus, Mary and Joseph fled Herod and his oppressive regime. It’s a pretty common theme of the Bible that human government sucks.

Taxation is 100% theft. Stealing half of what one puts into the world is oppression. We are all victims of theft. Choosing between losing what freedom I have or surrendering my money, doesn’t make it much of a choice. There is nothing voluntary about it. Render unto Caesar doesn’t change that.

Even Samuel in Chapter 8 warns of a human kingdom. The people evidently wanted to be ruled. In 8:17 he flat out tells them you will end up being the king’s servants if you do this. Basically, he was telling the people they are choosing the wrong god, a human.

The way we address modern human government is verging on false idol worship. Most people have replaced God with government. There is a reason golden statues are a problem LOL.

I can easily justify my questioning of human authority with my Christian faith.

I guess you can get out of it by saying it's interpretation. But interpretation is how we get a ton of false Christians.

However, the word of God is the word of God. There really isn't a gray area or select interpretation if you stick with the Bible itself.

If you choose to interpret it, I am not against you personally for doing so though.

As a human.. I get what you mean/what you are saying. As a Christian I have to disagree with some of what you mentioned.

This isn't about turning another cheek. This isn't about "who cares in the scheme of things". God has a plan and God also has structure. You can not rule out Romans 13 while picking and selecting out other versus.

**********
Romans 13 -
13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
**********

You can think all you want when it comes to theft. I know, see, and understand why you say it.

But lets not tell people it was for turning the other cheek or "who cares in the scheme of things". God put this into his plan and structure for you to pay taxes, if you owe it. Not so you can think its theft and that Jesus meant to turn the other cheek or Jesus meant "who cares in the scheme of things". You give to Caesar bc that was God's plan.

Caesar was put into authority by God. The one in authority is there for your good. They are an instrument of God, for God's ultimate purpose. The way it is done, how, or why is beyond us as humans. It wasn't for cheek turning or "who cares", it has a purpose beyond what any of us could know or think.

I also know this thread is not about religion. I just wanted to point out Romans 13 though, so other Christians may not stumble on this subject.

That is my only reason for posting.

@Kak , I have nothing against why you believe or have your interpretation. I am just posting this for other Christians.
 
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Kak

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I guess you can get out of it by saying it's interpretation. But interpretation is how we get a ton of false Christians.

However, the word of God is the word of God. There really isn't a gray area or select interpretation if you stick with the Bible itself.

If you choose to interpret it, I am not against you personally for doing so though.

As a human.. I get what you mean/what you are saying. As a Christian I have to disagree with some of what you mentioned.

This isn't about turning another cheek. This isn't about "who cares in the scheme of things". God has a plan and God also has structure. You can not rule out Romans 13 while picking and selecting out other versus.

**********
Romans 13 -
13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
**********

You can think all you want when it comes to theft. I know, see, and understand why you say it.

But lets not tell people it was for turning the other cheek or "who cares in the scheme of things". God put this into his plan and structure for you to pay taxes, if you owe it. Not so you can think its theft and that Jesus meant to turn the other cheek or Jesus meant "who cares in the scheme of things". You give to Caesar bc that was God's plan.

Caesar was put into authority by God. The one in authority is there for your good. They are an instrument of God, for God's ultimate purpose. The way it is done, how, or why is beyond us as humans. It wasn't for cheek turning or "who cares", it has a purpose beyond what any of us could know or think.

I also know this thread is not about religion. I just wanted to point out Romans 13 though, so other Christians may not stumble on this subject.

That is my only reason for posting.

@Kak , I have nothing against why you believe or have your interpretation. I am just posting this for other Christians.
But, did you "interpret," like bizydad that it is morally good to pay taxes based on "render unto Caeser?" or did you get from it... Literally "render unto Caeser" like I did.

I will admit that I got caviler with my analysis, yet it wasn't really an interpretation. I took it as literally as possible. Pay taxes, and be lawful.

It wasn't written: "render unto Caeser what is Ceasar's, for this is moral and good." It was simply "just pay your taxes." It's Caesar's currency, not mine, not yours. Which is the fact today with the USD as well. We just have pieces of paper with dead presidents on them. The value inherent in them is already owned by the federal reserve.

It wasn't "pay your taxes because it's good to pay your taxes." It was "just pay your taxes."

Romans 13 is "submit to authority" not "submit to authority because this is a moral thing to do."

Ignoring the element of literal disdain for human kingdoms all throughout the Bible is also a mistake.

IF I choose to literally interpret and obey both of those scriptures, I get, pay your taxes and be lawful. That doesn't mean I can't disagree with what some laws are or even consider taxation theft. THAT is my point.
 

thechosen1

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I guess you can get out of it by saying it's interpretation. But interpretation is how we get a ton of false Christians.

However, the word of God is the word of God. There really isn't a gray area or select interpretation if you stick with the Bible itself.

If you choose to interpret it, I am not against you personally for doing so though.

As a human.. I get what you mean/what you are saying. As a Christian I have to disagree with some of what you mentioned.

This isn't about turning another cheek. This isn't about "who cares in the scheme of things". God has a plan and God also has structure. You can not rule out Romans 13 while picking and selecting out other versus.

**********
Romans 13 -
13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
**********

You can think all you want when it comes to theft. I know, see, and understand why you say it.

But lets not tell people it was for turning the other cheek or "who cares in the scheme of things". God put this into his plan and structure for you to pay taxes, if you owe it. Not so you can think its theft and that Jesus meant to turn the other cheek or Jesus meant "who cares in the scheme of things". You give to Caesar bc that was God's plan.

Caesar was put into authority by God. The one in authority is there for your good. They are an instrument of God, for God's ultimate purpose. The way it is done, how, or why is beyond us as humans. It wasn't for cheek turning or "who cares", it has a purpose beyond what any of us could know or think.

I also know this thread is not about religion. I just wanted to point out Romans 13 though, so other Christians may not stumble on this subject.

That is my only reason for posting.

@Kak , I have nothing against why you believe or have your interpretation. I am just posting this for other Christians.
Was Adolf Hitler put into authority over Germany by God?

Serious question.

(How about Pol Pot, Mao, Kim Jung Un, etc?) - this is a total derailment.

But no, I don't think this interpretation is right. You have to consider the church history as well, like selling indulgences, Papal corruption, Martin Luther and the theses, the Great Schism, etc.

(authority is often wrong - or worse - evil)
 
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eliquid

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But, did you "interpret," like bizydad that it is morally good to pay taxes based on "render unto Caeser?" or did you get from it... Literally "render unto Caeser" like I did.

I will admit that I got caviler with my analysis, yet it wasn't really an interpretation. I took it as literally as possible. Pay taxes, and be lawful.

It wasn't written: "render unto Caeser what is Ceasar's, for this is moral and good." It was simply "just pay your taxes." It's Caesar's currency, not mine, not yours. Which is the fact today with the USD as well. We just have pieces of paper with dead presidents on them. The value inherent in them is already owned by the federal reserve.

It wasn't "pay your taxes because it's good to pay your taxes." It was "just pay your taxes."

Romans 13 is "submit to authority" not "submit to authority because this is a moral thing to do."

Ignoring the element of literal disdain for human kingdoms all throughout the Bible is also a mistake.

IF I choose to literally interpret and obey both of those scriptures, I get, pay your taxes and be lawful. That doesn't mean I can't disagree with what some laws are or even consider taxation theft. THAT is my point.

For sure. I think as a person/human you can dislike it and consider it theft.

My only issue was the cheek turning or "who cares" part.

I only wanted people to understand that difference. If I hadn't posted, what I posted.. I don't want people thinking that cheek turning or "who cares" was the bottom line of what Jesus said. They need to understand there is also a larger plan and commandment behind it, is all.

You can disagree for sure. Throughout the Bible ( on this one subject ) there is a lot of issues that cropped up concerning troubles and hardships for humans when it came to tax and tithes ( which is a 1/10th tax btw ).
 

eliquid

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Was Adolf Hitler put into authority over Germany by God?

Serious question.

(How about Pol Pot, Mao, Kim Jung Un, etc?) - this is a total derailment.

But no, I don't think this interpretation is right. You have to consider the church history as well, like selling indulgences, Papal corruption, Martin Luther and the theses, the Great Schism, etc.

Yes he was.

It would have to be a whole other thread on why. Actually one outside of the forum more than likely on why.

Church history.... hmm. I guess you might not know true Christianity, which is fine, and I can excuse some of what you said here about that.

However, the Catholic Church is not Christianity. Papal corruption has nothing to do with Jesus and God, selling indulgences also the same, etc.

That would be like me trying to say Hindus and Mormons are the same.

You're linking several things outside of the one true God and Jesus, with events that happened outside of Christianity.

Just because the Pope or the Catholic Church says XYZ, doesn't mean they are Christianity.

About the only one in your list that is close is Martin Luther and his theses. What was an issue here in that event? That he told the truth? That was a positive.

And for anyone here that is Catholic, I am only pointing out that Catholicism and Christianity are NOT the same thing. It is not meant to be offensive, but clarity on the 2.
 
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Kak

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Was Adolf Hitler put into authority over Germany by God?

Serious question.

(How about Pol Pot, Mao, Kim Jung Un, etc?) - this is a total derailment.

But no, I don't think this interpretation is right. You have to consider the church history as well, like selling indulgences, Papal corruption, Martin Luther and the theses, the Great Schism, etc.
That is why the massive biblical theme of the horrendousness of human governments can not be ignored.

What happens when government tries to force Christians into the shadows... Like China and eventually the USA?

What happens when literally carrying out your faith and obeying government are at odds?

Why didn't Moses and the Israelites stay in Egypt and obey?

Why then did Daniel refuse to worship the statue of Nebuchadnezzar? More importantly, why is this in the Bible if we aren't to learn something from this?

Why did Mary and Joseph flee to Egypt? They didn't just stick around for the inevitable.

Why did Joshua militarily take on all kind of kingdoms? He didn't just obey them.

Why did Samuel warn about the destruction of a human kingdom? He knew this was going to replace God as their "hero."

There is a LOT more in the text to consider than just blind obedience.
 
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Kak

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About the only one in your list that is close is Martin Luther and his theses. What was an issue here in that event? That he told the truth? That was a positive.

Yet again, he ultimately died for his rebellion.

Like Paul himself who wrote Romans. Like John the Baptist.

Seriously, there has to be like 50 disciples, evangelists, and believers, that were specifically, for a reason, written about in the Bible, that were killed by governing authorities for their "rebellion."

This is so off topic it isn't even funny. The bottom line for my entire response to BizyDad is that there is nothing about "render unto Caeser" that makes supporting the act of taxing citizens a moral deliberation. It says nothing of the sort. Nor does it make taxation not theft. He simply told the pharisees to pay the taxes that they owe.
 
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eliquid

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That is why the massive biblical theme of the horrendousness of human governments can not be ignored.

What happens when government tries to force Christians into the shadows... Like China and eventually the USA?

What happens when literally carrying out your faith and obeying government are at odds?

Why then did Daniel refuse to worship the statue of Nebuchadnezzar? More importantly, why is this in the Bible if we aren't to learn something from this?

Why did Mary and Joseph flee to Egypt? They didn't just stick around for the inevitable.

Why did Joshua militarily take on all kind of kingdoms? He didn't just obey.

Why did Samuel warn about the destruction of a human kingdom? He knew this was going to replace God as their hero.

There is a LOT more in the text to consider than just blind obedience.

Yet again, he ultimately died for his rebellion.

Like Paul himself who wrote Romans. Like John the Baptist.

Seriously, there has to be like 50 disciples, evangelists, and believers, that were specifically, for a reason, written about in the Bible, that were killed by governing authorities for their "rebellion."

Out of respect for this thread ( taxation ), and the forum ( not religious based ), and the fact I know how these back and forths go in general on this topic ( religious )...

I'm not going to rebuttal and drive the thread into something else entirely. It distracts from the tread topic and ultimately this forum's purpose.

I do encourage having a different platform for this convo though if you or anyone else want to continue.

I will leave you with this one thought.

Part of what you have mentioned, is already in the Bible. Partly in the Book of Revelation. You already have the answers to 2 of your questions there.

On your other comments, everything is done in the Glory of God. It's a hard concept for some ( not saying you have an issue with it, I'm making a generic statement here for all ). What you see as evil or bad based on your human view of morality, isn't always the same for God.

We aren't here to understand the whys and hows. I think that is what most people miss or don't understand. The things that are "good", every "Christian" glorifies God. The things that are "bad" almost all people don't see the connection for the glorification of God.

If people were able to have clarity on that, things could be seen differently.

Again, this isnt the topic or forum/time for this convo, but I wanted to at least leave that for now.
 

DoingDeals

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Paul was both a rich man & a poor man, but he was always happy in life.

I wonder how much he paid in taxes.

Wait a minute, how did this become a religion thread?
 

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Paul was both a rich man & a poor man, but he was always happy in life.

I wonder how much he paid in taxes.

Wait a minute, how did this become a religion thread?

There are three things too dangerous to debate:
1. Religion
2. politics
3. Real estate

That’s my opinion and I’m sticking with it.
 
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thechosen1

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Yes he was.

It would have to be a whole other thread on why. Actually one outside of the forum more than likely on why.

Church history.... hmm. I guess you might not know true Christianity, which is fine, and I can excuse some of what you said here about that.

However, the Catholic Church is not Christianity. Papal corruption has nothing to do with Jesus and God, selling indulgences also the same, etc.

That would be like me trying to say Hindus and Mormons are the same.

You're linking several things outside of the one true God and Jesus, with events that happened outside of Christianity.

Just because the Pope or the Catholic Church says XYZ, doesn't mean they are Christianity.

About the only one in your list that is close is Martin Luther and his theses. What was an issue here in that event? That he told the truth? That was a positive.

And for anyone here that is Catholic, I am only pointing out that Catholicism and Christianity are NOT the same thing. It is not meant to be offensive, but clarity on the 2.
That was my entire point of including those things.

I studied Church history in college. It was a required course. I'm not saying that as an "appeal to authority," just to explain that I have in fact read about these things and studied them.

I agree with you that the Catholic Church is not Christianity.

What I find confusing is how you can say that (which is totally correct as far as my opinion is concerned) while simultaneously suggesting that Adolf Hitler was given power by God.

LMAO no
 

eliquid

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That was my entire point of including those things.

I studied Church history in college. It was a required course. I'm not saying that as an "appeal to authority," just to explain that I have in fact read about these things and studied them.

I agree with you that the Catholic Church is not Christianity.

What I find confusing is how you can say that (which is totally correct as far as my opinion is concerned) while simultaneously suggesting that Adolf Hitler was given power by God.

LMAO no

If you feel that because you went to school to study a subject ( 1 or 2 classes, since you said it was a required course ) makes you correct, then keep thinking so.

There are a lot of false teachings in the religious world. Higher Ed institutes included.

This coming from someone ( me ) that works in Higher Ed day in and day out.
 

thechosen1

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If you feel that because you went to school to study a subject ( 1 or 2 classes, since you said it was a required course ) makes you correct, then keep thinking so.

There are a lot of false teachings in the religious world. Higher Ed institutes included.

This coming from someone ( me ) that works in Higher Ed day in and day out.
I literally just said that wasn't my point (appeal to authority), and you ignored the rest of my comment about how you don't believe in supremacy of the Catholic Church or trust their authority, but you think Hitler was chosen by God.

There are a lot of contradictions there.
 
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Us 4 have moved this discussion to PM to spare the rest of the forum the argument.
Mark your calendars, this is the moment you 4 broke up! You just don’t know it yet… but it has happened. ;)
 

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