Fed Up With Your Country? Where Is Left to Go?

[GlobalWealth]

It just seems like a LOT of people want to come to the US. As bad as it is here..Obviously, the immigration and other data would need to be analyzed to vet this assumption.

For the past several years, more Mexicans and other Latin Americans are leaving the US than coming to the US.

 

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[Nick perry01]

I was just thinking the same thing, the level of disdain and hatred for world governments is at an all time high and people are getting fed up, from AU, to CAN, to Malyasia, to Italy, to the US -- people are tired of being managed like cattle.

When people say they want to leave, I say, where? Georgia? Estonia? Costa Rica? Mexico?

Who appreciates entrepreneurs and job providers?

Right now it appears the lessor-developed countries have more appeal.

tottaly agree. Over this past view year, I have discovered the harsh reality of the U.S government, from trying to control(ad from someone who has Cerebralpalsy, control and freedom is really important to me.) what we do too what we consume and what we do with our free time. The U.S government is really not what our founding fathers meant it to be, and I fear we are truly changing for the worst

 

[Deleted85763]

I can think of at least 10 countries I'd rather live in than the US right off the top of my head.



This is true, but the US remains a huge consumer market so "doing" business in the US is still viable, but technology allows us to do this without having to live there. Gotta love tech...



We noticed this earlier this year when we did and RV roadtrip across the US (twice) and then spent a few months in Mexico.

Every city we went to in the US was full of panhandlers and bums. In 3 months in Mexico, I saw 2 panhandlers, total. In Austin, TX I saw at least 2 every block.

It's pretty depressing to see so many bums in the US despite the country being full of opportunity.



I avoid US "healthcare" at all costs. Every time I go to the eye doctor in the US it feels like I'm transported back to 1985 compared to my eye doctor in Lithuania.

Some of the best healthcare I've ever received was in Mexico. If I lived in the US now, I'd fly to Mexico for anything beyond a standard checkup or a teeth cleaning.

The problem with getting medical care in other countries, regardless of quality, is that if there needs to be an adjustment or retreatment, which often there is, the cost of travel to go back again can far exceed the cost of the low cost medical care. In fact it can make much more expensive than if you had it done locally.

 

[Deleted85763]

For the past several years, more Mexicans and other Latin Americans are leaving the US than coming to the US.

Is that by force?

 

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[GPM]

@robertwills are you purposely reading people's posts wrong? I believe the QUALITY of the doctor and facility was what was referenced in going to a different country for care, not just the price.

Ive never been to a doctor in USA, but in Canada not a single thing feels modern. My wife's pregnancy stuff was brutal here. In Mexico it was dirt cheap, fast, and crazy new tech. Everyone had those 4d ultrasound things and they gave you printouts and you could view it on a big screen. In Canada it was some low tech wand from 1970 and shown on a small a$$ tube screen that the nurses wouldn't let you look at.

 

[Deleted85763]

@robertwills are you purposely reading people's posts wrong? I believe the QUALITY of the doctor and facility was what was referenced in going to a different country for care, not just the price.

Ive never been to a doctor in USA, but in Canada not a single thing feels modern. My wife's pregnancy stuff was brutal here. In Mexico it was dirt cheap, fast, and crazy new tech. Everyone had those 4d ultrasound things and they gave you printouts and you could view it on a big screen. In Canada it was some low tech wand from 1970 and shown on a small a$$ tube screen that the nurses wouldn't let you look at.

I specifically used the word "quality" to show that even if the quality is the best in the world (regardless of price) a patient may have to get further treatments related to whatever was done. Traveling back could be far more expensive then if you got the treatment done locally.

I had a tooth that needed work done. I decided to have it done in my town in the US even though I knew that some overseas locations would be far less expensive. The savings would literally pay for my trip and give me a vacation at no cost! However I had family commitments and had it done locally. Well, that one procedure required me to go back to the dentist like 10 times over the next year. This was totally unexpected but things keep on going wrong with the tooth.

With medical treatments I believe it's best to have them done close to where one resides at the time, assuming that the quality is of a recognized standard of care

 

[SteveO]

For the past several years, more Mexicans and other Latin Americans are leaving the US than coming to the US.

I have lived close to the border of Mexico for my entire life. Most of the work and businesses have had a large percentage of Mexican workers. This is not a sentiment that I hear.

I do like Mexico and enjoy visiting there frequently. But you do need to be careful.

I went on a 2 day trip in my jeep and was taken for money 3 times. Of course I got a kick out of it but it was annoying.

 

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[SteveO]

My brother lives and works in Mexico. He is a strong individual that does not scare easily. He is scared down there though. The violence in Tijuana is through the roof.

Algodones, Mexico is about 25 minutes from my house. I go down for dental work and medications. I use a dentist that was vetted by a retired dentist from Canada. My results have been positive.

Although I have heard horror stories. My sister is one. She went to Mexico for many dental procedures. She is now having much of the work redone in the states.

 

[Xavier X]

I've lived in (or visited) 30 countries so far. My opinion is that most might be comparing their biggest gripe with their own countries to their favorite aspect of "the other side."

Since I typically spend 1-3 months in each country (sometimes longer), I interact with a lot of locals, tourists and "expats." In my experience, most foreigners operate in a bubble which provides the illusion of an ideal existence. This bubble does not mean you don't visit local places or interact with locals.

It just means your reality is so removed from the daily realities of the locals that you are sheltered from it. This is not necessarily a "you are rich, they are poor" thing. Or even that you intentionally avoid local integration.
It's the nuances of local politics and its tensions. The nuances of languages you don't understand well enough. The inter-ethnic, inter-tribal and inter-racial undertones. The economic strife, and a long list of things many foreigners are blind to, even if it's not their intention to be.

It just doesn't affect them enough to notice. Think of it the way you never think of nitrogen when you inhale air, to breathe. 78% of dry air is nitrogen, and only 21% is oxygen. However, oxygen is what fuels your reality, so it's all your mind registers when you think of breathing. This doesn't mean nitrogen isn't there in a significant way.

As a result, you can have someone leave the US and set up base in a place with even the worst dictatorship, and say, "you know what? It's pretty great. Great weather, great food, fast internet, and I can run my business here." The other horrors seem to vanish or the bubble creates an illusion of being impermeable to them.

I could elaborate on a lot of other things, but to keep this post shorter, I'll just re-iterate. Being unaware or sheltered from the real and negative aspects of a society isn't equivalent to it being a better one. At the very best, you might get a trade-off that works in your favor, and you can live with.

 

[Deleted85763]

I've lived in (or visited) 30 countries so far. My opinion is that most might be comparing their biggest gripe with their own countries to their favorite aspect of "the other side."

Since I typically spend 1-3 months in each country (sometimes longer), I interact with a lot of locals, tourists and "expats." In my experience, most foreigners operate in a bubble which provides the illusion of an ideal existence. This bubble does not mean you don't visit local places or interact with locals.

It just means your reality is so removed from the daily realities of the locals that you are sheltered from it. This is not necessarily a "you are rich, they are poor" thing. Or even that you intentionally avoid local integration.
It's the nuances of local politics and its tensions. The nuances of languages you don't understand well enough. The inter-ethnic, inter-tribal and inter-racial undertones. The economic strife, and a long list of things many foreigners are blind to, even if it's not their intention to be.

It just doesn't affect them enough to notice. Think of it the way you never think of nitrogen when you inhale air, to breathe. 78% of dry air is nitrogen, and only 21% is oxygen. However, oxygen is what fuels your reality, so it's all your mind registers when you think of breathing. This doesn't mean nitrogen isn't there in a significant way.

As a result, you can have someone leave the US and set up base in a place with even the worst dictatorship, and say, "you know what? It's pretty great. Great weather, great food, fast internet, and I can run my business here." The other horrors seem to vanish or the bubble creates an illusion of being impermeable to them.

I could elaborate on a lot of other things, but to keep this post shorter, I'll just re-iterate. Being unaware or sheltered from the real and negative aspects of a society isn't equivalent to it being a better one. At the very best, you might get a trade-off that works in your favor, and you can live with.

In my experience when I have spent more than a month in a foreign country I know it fairly well by the time I leave. The first things that become apparent are how the citizens are treated, both health wise and human rights wise. When you see that many of the natives have bad teeth and/or there aren't many people over 70 around you get a good idea of what the health situation is. There are so many countries where free speech, as it is known in the birthplace of it, the US, does not exist in whole or part. That's something you should know and be aware of if you will be living in another country.

I do read the English newspapers, ask the locals questions about the culture, current events, phenomenon, etc.. and it becomes readily apparent what a country is in short order. The only bubble I see is the one that the locals put me in. "He's from America" and I'm left out of any participation in the country's affairs in all respects. I was in one country that was bordering on civil war. I told a neighbor that I was a bit concerned for my safety. He said "It is between us and them. No one is going after you". So by default being a foreigner from a developed country gives one status in many countries. A lot less so in others. It's always best to do a lot of research before moving to another country, particularly an undeveloped one.

 

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[Timmy C]

this is not true. Australians can contact the ATO and give up their residency status and thus tax residency. There are hoops to jump through, but it's doable. I have 2 Australian clients right now going through this process.

That's good to know. Thanks for that, mate.

It sounds like the US prisoners have a harder go of it than us here in the land down under!

 

[Timmy C]

For the past several years, more Mexicans and other Latin Americans are leaving the US than coming to the US.

The same propaganda is thrown to the masses in every western country I believe.

The elitest say to all of us ''People want to come here, you are lucky''

The same BS is fed to us in Australia. I would think every western country would think that their piece of dirt is much more fantastic than any other.

 

[GlobalWealth]

Is that by force?

No. Voluntary returns to their home countries.

 

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[NCNY]

Having lived in Eastern Europe for more than a decade, I can tell you this is a misconception, albeit a common one.

In Latvia, even the 75 year old grandma at the market speaks enough english to deal with you for selling her apples. I've never had a language issue in Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, Serbia, Bulgaria, etc.

Right now, Europe in general is not ideal due to c19 restrictions, but the poor and dumb stereotype is 100% false.

I've been to Poland, Bulgaria, Romania and Czech Republic and I enjoyed every second of it, but in my experience when we got out of the major cities things change really fast, im talking like turning into a 3rd world villages (my experience from Romania, same as Poland)... I loved Krakow and Warsaw in Poland - very modern and good looking cities but couldn't stand the weather as im from a warm country.

Life is pretty great in the big cities, outside? don't really know.

 

[GlobalWealth]

Where I am in Mexico there are McDonald's, Malls, movie theaters, hotels, Walmart... If you wanted to you could pretend you are in USA. However, I've never set foot in any of those (going to Walmart for supplies soon though, a deal is a deal is a deal). I eat churros off the street, my kids are always asking for bolies, we eat probably more pastor than anyone has a right to. We take small vans and busses into the city and town center lots of times. It's not even remotely close to the West the way we are living. That's the way I like it.

If I were richer than I knew what to do, the only thing that would change is the house and the wheels. Larger home (same kind of area), nicer car, private jets, boats. I'd still order pastor by the kg, and get coconut waters and bolies off the street. Being away from those cookie cutter western developments is refreshing. I can always visit them to go see a movie or something anytime I want.

Nothing beats tacos and churros from the street carts in Mexico.

 

[GlobalWealth]

@robertwills are you purposely reading people's posts wrong? I believe the QUALITY of the doctor and facility was what was referenced in going to a different country for care, not just the price.

This was my point. I've found much higher quality healthcare outside the US. Even for the same price, I'd still fly to Mexico, Turkey, or Lithuania for many procedures.

 

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[GlobalWealth]

I have lived close to the border of Mexico for my entire life. Most of the work and businesses have had a large percentage of Mexican workers. This is not a sentiment that I hear.

I do like Mexico and enjoy visiting there frequently. But you do need to be careful.

I went on a 2 day trip in my jeep and was taken for money 3 times. Of course I got a kick out of it but it was annoying.

More Mexicans Leaving Than Coming to the U.S.

Between 2009 and 2014, about 140,000 more Mexican immigrants have returned to Mexico from the U.S. than have migrated here, citing family reunification as the main reason for leaving.

www.pewresearch.org

This one is a bit old (2015), but shows the data of more Mexicans going back to Mexico than Mexicans coming to the US.

Mexican Migration Could Be the First Crisis of 2021

The pandemic has worsened all the factors driving migrants north, not least from Mexico.

www.cfr.org

This one confirms that there were a larger number of Mexicans returning to Mexico than arriving in the US up until the past year and the numbers have increased for Mexicans coming to the US, mainly due to easy access of free cash (stimulus).

 

[GPM]

I went on a 2 day trip in my jeep and was taken for money 3 times. Of course I got a kick out of it but it was annoying.

Tell me more. What happened?

 

[Deleted85763]

This was my point. I've found much higher quality healthcare outside the US. Even for the same price, I'd still fly to Mexico, Turkey, or Lithuania for many procedures.

My point was that even with the highest quality and lowest prices if you have to return to have the procedure adjusted or redone (which is common with dental and medical procedures) then the price may be far higher than if you had it originally done locally. I went back and forth to a dentist many times over the course of years for just one tooth! The procedure should have been completed at the first visit but in medicine things don't always go right. If I had to fly to Mexico every time it needed care I would not have been economical.

 

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[Xavier X]

Tell me more. What happened?

Couldn't help it.

 

[Raja]

Ive never been to a doctor in USA, but in Canada not a single thing feels modern. My wife's pregnancy stuff was brutal here. In Mexico it was dirt cheap, fast, and crazy new tech. Everyone had those 4d ultrasound things and they gave you printouts and you could view it on a big screen. In Canada it was some low tech wand from 1970 and shown on a small a$$ tube screen that the nurses wouldn't let you look at.

I thought Canada's health care is top-notch, definitely isn't the case.

 

[Raja]

I went on a 2 day trip in my jeep and was taken for money 3 times. Of course I got a kick out of it but it was annoying.

mind asking how much? was it like a kidnap or something?

 

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[MTF]

I could elaborate on a lot of other things, but to keep this post shorter, I'll just re-iterate. Being unaware or sheltered from the real and negative aspects of a society isn't equivalent to it being a better one. At the very best, you might get a trade-off that works in your favor, and you can live with.

I don't think that anyone in this thread looks for a perfect place. It's all about finding a place that fits the right boxes for you.

"Objectively" speaking, based on various lifestyle quality ratings, the Scandinavian countries are some of the greatest places in the world to live. But I hate cold and gray weather so for me personally, no matter how great they are, they wouldn't work. I'd fare better in a country that maybe doesn't score as high as for education or welfare programs or that maybe doesn't have the same level of freedom of press but that has other things that fit what I'm looking for.

It's the nuances of local politics and its tensions. The nuances of languages you don't understand well enough. The inter-ethnic, inter-tribal and inter-racial undertones. The economic strife, and a long list of things many foreigners are blind to, even if it's not their intention to be.

I understand little of the politics of my home country and stay away from the topic.

I use English more often than I use my native language as I consume and produce most information in English.

Since it's a homogeneous country, there's very little to understand in terms of inter-ethnic, inter-tribal, and inter-racial issues.

I understand very little of the economic strife, too, because I don't hang out (and never did) with very poor people. This is sort of like a middle-class American not really understanding the economic strife of a person living in the inner city despite sharing the same citizenship.

You can understand all of these things as a foreigner if you really want to. But many locals don't understand them, either. Not every local is an expert of his country and not every foreigner is forever sentenced to not understand what's going on around him. It's not something you're born with. You can learn it, including the nuances (if you really need to).

 

[GlobalWealth]

I don't think that anyone in this thread looks for a perfect place. It's all about finding a place that fits the right boxes for you.

This is a great point.

Personally, I don't expect to find a utopia in one location.

I take the arbitrage approach. I love Latvia in the spring, summer and early autumn months. I love the culture, the food, the people. I have an amazing apartment on one of the nicest streets in the city and everything I do on a daily basis is walking distance. Sometimes, I don't drive my car for weeks because it's unnecessary.

But I don't consider it a one-stop shop utopia due to dreary winters, cold weather, and some idiotic govt policies.

So I go someplace else.

Last year we spent a bit of time on the coast in Turkey. Great weather, low cost of living, great food, etc.

We spend a bit of time in the US due to family obligations, but sometimes we are traveling in our RV, which allows a completely different type of freedom and lifestyle.

This year we also spent a lot of time in Mexico and completely fell in love with the place.

The point is that it is possible and very doable to arbitrage the location and move about to find what fits your needs for the season or your current situation.

 

[Xavier X]

I don't think that anyone in this thread looks for a perfect place. It's all about finding a place that fits the right boxes for you.

"Objectively" speaking, based on various lifestyle quality ratings, the Scandinavian countries are some of the greatest places in the world to live. But I hate cold and gray weather so for me personally, no matter how great they are, they wouldn't work. I'd fare better in a country that maybe doesn't score as high as for education or welfare programs or that maybe doesn't have the same level of freedom of press but that has other things that fit what I'm looking for.



I understand little of the politics of my home country and stay away from the topic.

I use English more often than I use my native language as I consume and produce most information in English.

Since it's a homogeneous country, there's very little to understand in terms of inter-ethnic, inter-tribal, and inter-racial issues.

I understand very little of the economic strife, too, because I don't hang out (and never did) with very poor people. This is sort of like a middle-class American not really understanding the economic strife of a person living in the inner city despite sharing the same citizenship.

You can understand all of these things as a foreigner if you really want to. But many locals don't understand them, either. Not every local is an expert of his country and not every foreigner is forever sentenced to not understand what's going on around him. It's not something you're born with. You can learn it, including the nuances (if you really need to).

All valid points, but the key point I made is, there is a difference between the two following statements:

1. "My country has gone to shit, with [insert issue]. So I'll take my laptop and move to [insert dictatorship nation], where the weather is great, food is great, and I can run my online business. It is a better country."

and

2. "My country has gone to shit, with [insert issue]. So I'll take my laptop and move to [insert dictatorship nation], where the weather is great, food is great, and I can run my online business. It works for me, because it's easier to remain isolated and oblivious to the local social and economic issues."

Sometimes people unconsciously conflate the two.

 

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[MTF]

move to [insert dictatorship nation]

What countries are you referring to when you say this? Because this word seems to be overused. Very few countries in the world are dictatorships (even if you include monarchic dictatorships) and most people aren't really moving to them.

 

[Xavier X]

What countries are you referring to when you say this? Because this word seems to be overused. Very few countries in the world are dictatorships (even if you include monarchic dictatorships) and most people aren't really moving to them.

My use of "dictatorship nation" there is a bit more figurative, in illustrating existence of inherently objectionable issues with the destination society's management.

However, for nations and monarchies considered dictatorships today, here are some. It includes 26% of all independent countries (51 out of 195). This list may contain leaders with a subjective status of dictator, so I don't present it as conclusive. A ballpark view of what's still out there.

Current Dictators - List of World Dictators From 2015-2022

Up-to-date list of current dictators of the world with their bios and photo profiles. Includes an interactive world map of current dictators.

planetrulers.com

As you said, people aren't flocking to a lot of these places, but some are still relatively popular with longer term travelers.

 

[Deleted85763]

I don't think that anyone in this thread looks for a perfect place. It's all about finding a place that fits the right boxes for you.

"Objectively" speaking, based on various lifestyle quality ratings, the Scandinavian countries are some of the greatest places in the world to live. But I hate cold and gray weather so for me personally, no matter how great they are, they wouldn't work. I'd fare better in a country that maybe doesn't score as high as for education or welfare programs or that maybe doesn't have the same level of freedom of press but that has other things that fit what I'm looking for.



I understand little of the politics of my home country and stay away from the topic.

I use English more often than I use my native language as I consume and produce most information in English.

Since it's a homogeneous country, there's very little to understand in terms of inter-ethnic, inter-tribal, and inter-racial issues.

I understand very little of the economic strife, too, because I don't hang out (and never did) with very poor people. This is sort of like a middle-class American not really understanding the economic strife of a person living in the inner city despite sharing the same citizenship.

You can understand all of these things as a foreigner if you really want to. But many locals don't understand them, either. Not every local is an expert of his country and not every foreigner is forever sentenced to not understand what's going on around him. It's not something you're born with. You can learn it, including the nuances (if you really need to).

That's a great answer but there are fundamentals that come into play for everyone, if you at least want to have a higher degree of happiness. I think that is why the US has always been one of the favorite places to migrate to. It can be very difficult to find and maintain happiness in the US however there is a fundamental "pursuit of happiness" that pervades the spirit of everything. In fact it was written into the founding documents such as the Declaration of Independence. That came directly from the philosophers of England . They certainly got that right. So yes, find the place that works for you but just remember when push comes to shove not too many places will be there to protect your fundamental rights.

 

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[SteveO]

Tell me more. What happened?

mind asking how much? was it like a kidnap or something?

Nothing major.

Started when I crossed the border. There is a stop for filling out paperwork for a visa. There were number of us from our group inside. I stepped up to the counter and the person started filling out the information. They asked how long I would be there and I said less than a week.

They charged me $20 or 40 (can't remember) which I paid. My friends told me that they did not have to pay anything as we would be there less than 2 weeks. I looked at my visa and it said 6 months which I believe is the max time for that visitor visa.

Next stop was at a little shop in Puerto Penasco. The guy sold me a "Cuban" cigar for 20 bucks. I asked him for matches. He handed me a lighter and said $6. I said too much for this, I'll give you 3. I gave him a five and he handed me a dollar back. I laughed and told my friends to put their stuff down and go to a more honest shop. I went down to the beach to smoke my cigar. It was so stale that I took a couple puffs and threw it away.

Then we checked in to a hotel in El Golfo. The lady behind the counter asked for a $15 deposit. I handed her a 20 which she could not make change for. So I said that was not a problem and I'll get the deposit back in the morning. Well, nobody was there in the morning. We went for breakfast and then went back around 11 am. Still nobody. When she finally arrived around noon, she told me that I did not leave a deposit with her. It cracked me up at the time.

I have more examples than these but these happened on the same trip. Some were more sinister and more money but I will refrain from discussing.

Been to Mexico many times and enjoy it there. But you need to be on guard.

 

[GPM]

@SteveO Do you ever bring Pesos with you down there? I think using USD would be inviting trouble.

I personally only use Pesos when cash is needed, and a credit card all the other times. If someone wants to lift my numbers somehow I get my money back from the CC company so it is not a big deal. Credit cards also seem to give a pretty good conversion rate, I have yet to find a good way to get cash down here.