Atlas Shrugged

[Lone Wolf]

Bought Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead (audiobooks) last week after hearing Mark Cuban highly praise both. Started The Fountainhead today.

 

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[Ubermensch]

Just finished atlas shrugged, I couldn't believe the negative thoughts on it when I googled it, I started thinking is there something wrong with me for loving and agreeing with this? But I didn't care and here I am back where I belong and all is well, there are still some responsible people in this world. Maybe we on this forum can buy an island and create Galts Gulch one day

If you live in the West, particularly the United States, all you have to do is look around and see the grim picture she painted in Atlas Shrugged.

Do Fortune 500 "USA" companies - Hewlett Packard, Nike, Apple, etc - not "shrug" as they incorporate elsewhere, thereby legally avoiding being taxes? Do the largest, most successful companies on the planet not already shrug by refusing to "repatriate" their money to a once great economy?

You could argue that @GlobalWealth 's business only exists because of the "Shrug Effect."

Forgive me, it's been a couple years since. If I remember correctly, the author switched subjects frequently, which caused me pain. I suppose I have a 1 track mind. There were also frequent references to historical people/events that were not on the tip of my tongue. I was stopping frequently to use google/wikipedia to better understand the thought being conveyed. It just became laborious and I moved on.

Ayn Rand wrote the book well before the Internet, long before search engines and online encyclopedias.

Ayn Rand was a true erudite, a goddess of the mind. She is arguably the wisest woman to ever live (think fast: can YOU name any female philosophers whose ideas have shaken the earth so vehemently?). She pontificated on every subject: from art to politics, from sex to Beethoven, from capitalism to epistemology and metaphysics.

My point is that you shouldn't let the author's superior education intimidate you or put you off.

What good is a book if you don't learn from it?

 

[DaveC]

This was a tough read for me too....couldn't get past maybe 30 pages or so. I never understood the hype

 

[OldFaithful]

Ayn Rand wrote the book well before the Internet, long before search engines and online encyclopedias.

Ayn Rand was a true erudite, a goddess of the mind. She is arguably the wisest woman to ever live (think fast: can YOU name any female philosophers whose ideas have shaken the earth so vehemently?). She pontificated on every subject: from art to politics, from sex to Beethoven, from capitalism to epistemology and metaphysics.

My point is that you shouldn't let the author's superior education intimidate you or put you off.

What good is a book if you don't learn from it?

Please note that this refers to a discussion between @Delmania and myself regarding "Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius written about 180 AD, and not the OP topic of Ayn Rand's work.

Education superiority?

 

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[Raoul Duke]

 

[Rudynate]

I started this one, but found it prohibitive to finish. I'm glad you did.

I would read it the way the author wrote it - a little at a time.

 

[Rudynate]

Education superiority?

She was educated in the Soviet Union, wasn't she?

 

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[splok]

The thing to realize before jumping into Atlas Shrugged is that it's super heavy-handed. It may be a novel, but it's not supposed to be entertainment. It's a tool to communicate a message. It's basically 1200 pages of propaganda. If the message it's hitting you over the head with doesn't really, really resonate with you, then you're going to hate it. As literature, I think it's pretty terrible. As a as a teaching tool, it's fantastic for a certain set of people (pretty much everyone here), but it's like modern politics... it's intentionally divisive, and instantly turns off a ton of people.

On the other hand, I think the Fountainhead makes its point more subtly, making it a better read for a much wider audience.

Having said all that, I enjoyed both and think they helped solidify a lot of mental changes that had been percolating for a while. (Propaganda is great at that!) I legitimately think they should both be required reading in high school.

 

[JAJT]

This was a tough read for me too....couldn't get past maybe 30 pages or so. I never understood the hype

Atlas Shrugged is roughly 645,000 words and clocks in at over 1,000 pages. The book is longer than the entirety of all 3 Lord of the Rings books put together. How could you honestly expect to understand the hype after reading only 3% of it?

That's like saying you don't understand the hype behind swimming when all you've done is put a finger in the shallow end and said you think the water is cold.

 

[GlobalWealth]

Atlas Shrugged is roughly 645,000 words and clocks in at over 1,000 pages. The book is longer than the entirety of all 3 Lord of the Rings books put together. How could you honestly expect to understand the hype after reading only 3% of it?

That's like saying you don't understand the hype behind swimming when all you've done is put a finger in the shallow end and said you think the water is cold.

When I first tried to read Atlas Shrugged I put it down after about 50 pages. It was just not going anywhere with the plot line.

After many highly respected people kept recommending it I finally powered thru the early parts.

Once I got about 25% thru the book I couldn't put it down. I was enthralled.

It is one of the greatest and most influential books I've ever read.

Sent from my SM-G900FD using Tapatalk

 

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[Delmania]

Well, I've been avoiding reading either book due to fear. However, as Aristotle mentioned, “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” Then again, it has been some time since I was first introduced to either, and I already know I agree with her views on capitalism and objectivism (to a certain degree).

 

[hellolin]

The thing to realize before jumping into Atlas Shrugged is that it's super heavy-handed. It may be a novel, but it's not supposed to be entertainment. It's a tool to communicate a message. It's basically 1200 pages of propaganda. If the message it's hitting you over the head with doesn't really, really resonate with you, then you're going to hate it. As literature, I think it's pretty terrible. As a as a teaching tool, it's fantastic for a certain set of people (pretty much everyone here), but it's like modern politics... it's intentionally divisive, and instantly turns off a ton of people.

On the other hand, I think the Fountainhead makes its point more subtly, making it a better read for a much wider audience.

Having said all that, I enjoyed both and think they helped solidify a lot of mental changes that had been percolating for a while. (Propaganda is great at that!) I legitimately think they should both be required reading in high school.

Then I think we wouldn't have any of that student loan crisis and the generational crisis any more if this was the case.

 

[Rudynate]

The thing to realize before jumping into Atlas Shrugged is that it's super heavy-handed. It may be a novel, but it's not supposed to be entertainment. It's a tool to communicate a message. It's basically 1200 pages of propaganda. If the message it's hitting you over the head with doesn't really, really resonate with you, then you're going to hate it.

You can say that again. Could there be a more unsympathetic character than Dagne Taggart?

 

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[Delmania]

You can say that again. Could there be a more unsympathetic character than Dagne Taggart?

That's probably the biggest reason why people are turned off by Rand; she was not a very personable woman. That comes through in her work. This also seems to run off on most objectivists. It's why I recommend people temper her works with Meditations, to take that edge off, since it's possible to forge your own path and not be a total jackass.

 

[Rudynate]

That's probably the biggest reason why people are turned off by Rand; she was not a very personable woman. That comes through in her work. This also seems to run off on most objectivists. It's why I recommend people temper her works with Meditations, to take that edge off, since it's possible to forge your own path and not be a total jackass.

Right. Stoic techniques closely resemble the methods used by cognitive behavioral therapists. They also closely resemble the methods in Dale Carnegie's "How to Stop Worrying and Start Living."

 

[oimate]

Another great read that I would advise all to read is by a collection of great authors from the December 2004 publication of Playboy-Denise Richards makes a number of great points in her particular section.

 

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[JAJT]

Could there be a more unsympathetic character than Dagne Taggart?

Isn't that kind of the point?

All the "good" main characters focus purely on being effective, valuable, logical, being creators, demanding their worth, etc...

All the "bad" main characters focus purely on being likable, sympathetic, demanding what they need and want, choosing feelings over logic, etc...

Pretty much every problem in the book stems from sympathy. Those without value choose to force what feels good on those with value. Sympathy is a portrayed as a weakness at best and evil at worst in this book so obviously there's not a lot of that going around when it comes to the main "good" characters.

 

[Delmania]

Isn't that kind of the point?

All the "good" main characters focus purely on being effective, valuable, logical, being creators, demanding their worth, etc...

All the "bad" main characters focus purely on being likable, sympathetic, demanding what they need and want, choosing feelings over logic, etc...

Pretty much every problem in the book stems from sympathy. Those without value choose to force what feels good on those with value. Sympathy is a portrayed as a weakness at best and evil at worst in this book so obviously there's not a lot of that going around when it comes to the main "good" characters.

This, by the way, is a common fallacy among technical and logical people; the belief that logic and rationality trump emotions. I speak from personal experience when I say this most definitely is not true. Dale Carnegie makes the bold claim that 85% of our success comes from our ability to relate with people, and only 15% comes from our technical skill. Most of the time, all you need to do is to simply listen to a person and reflect back the emotion at them. The most successful people are the ones that are not only technically oriented in their given field, but are also capable of relating to people no matter who they are.

 

[JAJT]

Oh yeah, I'm not saying it's "correct", I'm just interpreting the book.

IMHO Atlas Shrugged is:

- Poorly Written
- Incredibly ham-fisted with the concepts
- Blunt as a stump
- Almost more essay than novel

Rand takes an "all or nothing" approach to her character design and how she introduces concepts. Every character has the contrast turned up to 11 so you know without doubt what she's trying to say. There is no subtly or layers to these characters. They are basically caricatures used to portray her ideals.

Everyone I know who loves Atlas Shrugged (myself included) does so with a huge footnote that says "some mental assembly required". Her world is impossible and would be harsh and not very fun to live in. Her world is black and white - the real world is full color and every shade of grey.

That being said, the book is also genius. I took a TON away from the book regarding self-worth, intelligence, confidence, oppression, needs vs merit, etc... The concepts are thought provoking, the situations interesting, the theory deep, and frankly it has to be one of the most polarizing books on the market. Listen to two different people of opposing views describe the book and you'll wonder if they even read the same thing.

 

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[Vance]

I was introduced to Fountainhead and Atlas 20 years ago in my mid 20's. None other than the late bodybuilder Mike Mentzer mentioned they were a "must read" while he was interviewed by Bill Phillips of Bodyforlife fame. This is before BFL was even a twinkle in Bill's eye, back in the good old days. Thank GOD I read them both (as he recommended, Fountainhead first then Atlas) as they changed my life and still play a part in my thinking today.

If you don't know how to rationally think, and apply it, you're sunk. Personally, in business, everywhere. Consider this, almost EVERYONE lies. White lies, big lies, doesn't matter. And as the saying goes, no man is smart enough to be a great liar for very long. Be true to yourself, develop your skills, learn how to think logically and critically, and you'll have massive leverage. Remember, if you have to lie you are NOT in the driver's seat of your own life.

Real men don't need to lie because they're smart enough to get what they want just by being themselves.

Those are absolutely in my top 5 books, with my latest favorite that makes the list "Outwitting the Devil" by Napoleon Hill. The audio book is highly entertaining and massively thought provoking. But also, IMO, contains the most powerful information on how to truly take 100% control of your life, meet your goals, and truly create any outcome you wish at any time. Free on Youtube, I listen to it often:

 

[Rudynate]

Oh yeah, I'm not saying it's "correct", I'm just interpreting the book.

IMHO Atlas Shrugged is:

- Poorly Written
- Incredibly ham-fisted with the concepts
- Blunt as a stump
- Almost more essay than novel

Rand takes an "all or nothing" approach to her character design and how she introduces concepts. Every character has the contrast turned up to 11 so you know without doubt what she's trying to say. There is no subtly or layers to these characters. They are basically caricatures used to portray her ideals.

Everyone I know who loves Atlas Shrugged (myself included) does so with a huge footnote that says "some mental assembly required". Her world is impossible and would be harsh and not very fun to live in. Her world is black and white - the real world is full color and every shade of grey.

That being said, the book is also genius. I took a TON away from the book regarding self-worth, intelligence, confidence, oppression, needs vs merit, etc... The concepts are thought provoking, the situations interesting, the theory deep, and frankly it has to be one of the most polarizing books on the market. Listen to two different people of opposing views describe the book and you'll wonder if they even read the same thing.

I think yours is one of the most intelligent critiques of the book I have ever read.

 

[ZF Lee]

Oh yeah, I'm not saying it's "correct", I'm just interpreting the book.

IMHO Atlas Shrugged is:

- Poorly Written
- Incredibly ham-fisted with the concepts
- Blunt as a stump
- Almost more essay than novel

Rand takes an "all or nothing" approach to her character design and how she introduces concepts. Every character has the contrast turned up to 11 so you know without doubt what she's trying to say. There is no subtly or layers to these characters. They are basically caricatures used to portray her ideals.

Everyone I know who loves Atlas Shrugged (myself included) does so with a huge footnote that says "some mental assembly required". Her world is impossible and would be harsh and not very fun to live in. Her world is black and white - the real world is full color and every shade of grey.

That being said, the book is also genius. I took a TON away from the book regarding self-worth, intelligence, confidence, oppression, needs vs merit, etc... The concepts are thought provoking, the situations interesting, the theory deep, and frankly it has to be one of the most polarizing books on the market. Listen to two different people of opposing views describe the book and you'll wonder if they even read the same thing.

Bump.
Yes, the story flow was not smooth, and I felt a bit distasteful.
So I went to Sparknotes and found the gist of the story...if the storyline and the depth of the novel was done better and more emotionally, ala MJ-style (UNSCRIPTED ), it would be tremendous.
By looking at the Sparknotes version, which is akin to observing it via big a picture, I've got to say I have never found a novel detailing the struggles of businesspeople against the world and a despotic government.

I decided to read the speech by John Galt (google or read him up...he's like the Batman or the V in the story)...and that actually describes coldly, philosophically and painfully the harsh SCRIPT that entrepreneurs face to go UNSCRIPTED .
I cannot believe that I am hearing the cry of the UNSCRIPTED , who are heavily misunderstood, beat back by society and mediocrity...and their voice of vengeance in the voice of John Galt who calls on SCRIPT folly.
I suspect MJ read some Atlas Shrugged for inspiration when writing UNSCRIPTED , didn't he?

Next to George S Patton's speech, I'll select this as my top picks of speeches. I have just read the first few paragraphs...and I am astounded and absolutely taken aback.
I'll leave this link here.
John Galt’s Speech from Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged”
But for listeners, here's the audio.

View: https://youtu.be/LDOfOu2_hkI

 

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[GMSI7D]

Bump.
Yes, the story flow was not smooth, and I felt a bit distasteful.
So I went to Sparknotes and found the gist of the story...if the storyline and the depth of the novel was done better and more emotionally, ala MJ-style (UNSCRIPTED ), it would be tremendous.
By looking at the Sparknotes version, which is akin to observing it via big a picture, I've got to say I have never found a novel detailing the struggles of businesspeople against the world and a despotic government.

I decided to read the speech by John Galt (google or read him up...he's like the Batman or the V in the story)...and that actually describes coldly, philosophically and painfully the harsh SCRIPT that entrepreneurs face to go UNSCRIPTED .
I cannot believe that I am hearing the cry of the UNSCRIPTED , who are heavily misunderstood, beat back by society and mediocrity...and their voice of vengeance in the voice of John Galt who calls on SCRIPT folly.
I suspect MJ read some Atlas Shrugged for inspiration when writing UNSCRIPTED , didn't he?

Next to George S Patton's speech, I'll select this as my top picks of speeches. I have just read the first few paragraphs...and I am astounded and absolutely taken aback.
I'll leave this link here.
John Galt’s Speech from Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged”
But for listeners, here's the audio.

View: https://youtu.be/LDOfOu2_hkI

Ayn Rand philosophy shares some idea with Nietzsche 's work

( by the way they both belong to the rare INTJ personnality type from the mbti theory)

the idea of the strong self above the weak, stupid masses .

Ayn Rand : the strong self wich produces value for itself first instead of giving it away to parasites

Nietzsche: the strong self wich belongs to the race of masters above the stupid masses