Random Chat, Thoughts, Posts, and/or Rants Thread

[Kak]

Saw a quote by Robert Greene that said something to the effect of "let other people do the work for you, but always take the credit."

Yikes! That might actually work if you're an employee climbing the corporate ladder (everyone will hate you), but not if you want to create real, bigger, lasting success.

For the fastlane, working with a Human Resource System and employees, my advice would be this:

"let other people work for you, or rather with you, and give them as much credit and praise as possible, multiplying your efforts and encouraging and rewarding them in the process."

Great post bro!

What can “getting all the credit” buy you? Nothing. What can running a company with happy and effective employees and partners buy you? Everything.

Leaders get credit by default, not by stealing it.

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

Great post bro!

What can “getting all the credit” buy you?

Thanks.

Getting all the credit can buy you a one-way ticket to zero friends at the office!

 

[Kak]

Thanks.

Getting all the credit can buy you a one-way ticket to zero friends at the office!

Zero friends means zero upward mobility for that kind of person too.

Have you read Adam Grant’s Give and Take? It’s a deep examination into this and really confirmed what I always figured was the truth.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

Zero friends means zero upward mobility for that kind of person too.

Have you read Adam Grant’s Give and Take? It’s a deep examination into this and really confirmed what I always figured was the truth.

I have not, but I have read How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie, and I think it's probably a similar concept

 

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[MTF]

Saw a quote by Robert Greene that said something to the effect of "let other people do the work for you, but always take the credit."

Yikes! That might actually work if you're an employee climbing the corporate ladder (everyone will hate you), but not if you want to create real, bigger, lasting success. In fact, it sounds more like being a dictator.

For the fastlane, working with a Human Resource System and employees, my advice would be this:

"let other people work for you, or rather with you, and give them as much credit and praise as possible, multiplying your efforts and encouraging and rewarding them in the process."

I've always thought that he's a sociopath (and everyone listening to him probably has such tendencies, too).

There has to be something wrong with a person who likes being ruthless or being feared instead of loved. Even this quote you posted is evil and would be typical for a crazy psycho dictator, not a true leader.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

I've always thought that he's a sociopath (and everyone listening to him probably has such tendencies, too).

There has to be something wrong with a person who likes being ruthless or being feared instead of loved. Even this quote you posted is evil and would be typical for a crazy psycho dictator, not a true leader.

Yeah, it's one thing to rationalize it and take credit for more than you did, thinking you deserve it. It's a whole different ballgame to intentionally deceive and be like "I know I didn't do this, but I'm playing this game." Kind of creepy. There is some level of ASPD there, maybe.

Edit: LOL I do laugh though that Google includes breaking laws under ASPD... laws are not always perfectly just or moral... If you live under Nazi Germany and you refuse to put people in a gas chamber, are you really the psychopath?

 

[Antifragile]

Saw a quote by Robert Greene that said something to the effect of "let other people do the work for you, but always take the credit."

Yikes!

I’ve read most of his books. I think you are referring to the laws of Power. Taking it out of context, I agree with “Yikes!”. But in proper context it makes a ton of sense. History tells us that those people who did that and got away with it! They did gain power. Anyway, I can’t recall the exact stories that apply but look up his book if interested.

He’s an excellent author and researches his material thoroughly well.

 

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[Antifragile]

I've always thought that he's a sociopath (and everyone listening to him probably has such tendencies, too).

Hmm… that’s odd. I never felt that way, and I liked his books.

There has to be something wrong with a person who likes being ruthless or being feared instead of loved. Even this quote you posted is evil and would be typical for a crazy psycho dictator, not a true leader.

You are right. And if you look in history at all those in positions of power, you’ll find many dictators and psychopaths. Take Hitler, Stalin and now Putin.

 

[GPM]

Saw a quote by Robert Greene that said something to the effect of "let other people do the work for you, but always take the credit."

Yikes! That might actually work if you're an employee climbing the corporate ladder (everyone will hate you), but not if you want to create real, bigger, lasting success. In fact, it sounds more like being a dictator.

For the fastlane, working with a Human Resource System and employees, my advice would be this:

"let other people work for you, or rather with you, and give them as much credit and praise as possible, multiplying your efforts and encouraging and rewarding them in the process."

Wow. That's a surefire way to make everyone hate you in your organization.

I'm making this up here, but imagine if Elon Musk celebrated his employees for their accomplishments? Internally they would be heroes, but in the end everyone says it was Musk and Space X/Tesla who did it. So everyone would win.

Or you know, be a backstabbing egotistical a**hole who has to take credit for everything. We all know people like that, and we all just love them don't we?

 

[Rabby]

You are right. And if you look in history at all those in positions of power, you’ll find many dictators and psychopaths. Take Hitler, Stalin and now Putin.

And others who aren't. Seems like there's a correlation between sociopathic and authoritarian tendencies, and chances of ending up on a meat hook or guillotine, or poisoned, or with a bullet in the head. Kind of like "live by the sword, die by the sword," but for murderers who make their way into government.

 

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[GPM]

You are right. And if you look in history at all those in positions of power, you’ll find many dictators and psychopaths. Take Hitler, Stalin and now Putin.

You forgot Justin Trudeau

 

[Lex DeVille]

I don't think the context of Green's quote is about taking credit as if you did all of the work yourself. The lesson is about outsourcing work to others. In other words, you shouldn't try to do all of the work yourself. You should leverage others toward your goals, and enjoy the payoff.

The title of that chapter is, "GET OTHERS TO DO THE WORK FOR YOU, BUT ALWAYS TAKE THE CREDIT."

It is an emotionally-charged, attention-grabbing headline that doesn't fully portray the lesson inside, but does get people to talk about the chapter and the book.

The introduction to the chapter starts with, "Use the wisdom, knowledge, and legwork of other people to further your own cause."

On the back of the book in the description you will find:

"As attention-grabbing in its design as it is in its content, this bold volume outlines the laws of power in their unvarnished essence, synthesizing the philosophies of Machiavelli, Sun-tzu, Carl von Clausewitz, and other great thinkers."

The ideas in the books are not necessarily Greene's perspectives. They are his interpretations of perspectives based on his studies of the philosophies of others. Robert Greene does not ruthlessly dictate countries or lead armies, and I doubt he could seduce anyone into obedience even if he applied all of the laws.

Robert Greene is a storyteller telling a story in a way that grabs and holds attention.

Taken at face value, this law directly contradicts some of the other laws.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

I don't think the context of Green's quote is about taking credit as if you did all of the work yourself. The lesson is about outsourcing work to others. In other words, you shouldn't try to do all of the work yourself. You should leverage others toward your goals, and enjoy the payoff.

The title of that chapter is, "GET OTHERS TO DO THE WORK FOR YOU, BUT ALWAYS TAKE THE CREDIT."

It is an emotionally-charged, attention-grabbing headline that doesn't fully portray the lesson inside, but does get people to talk about the chapter and the book.

The introduction to the chapter starts with, "Use the wisdom, knowledge, and legwork of other people to further your own cause."

On the back of the book in the description you will find:

"As attention-grabbing in its design as it is in its content, this bold volume outlines the laws of power in their unvarnished essence, synthesizing the philosophies of Machiavelli, Sun-tzu, Carl von Clausewitz, and other great thinkers."

The ideas in the books are not necessarily Greene's perspectives. They are his interpretations of perspectives based on his studies of the philosophies of others. Robert Greene does not ruthlessly dictate countries or lead armies, and I doubt he could seduce anyone into obedience even if he applied all of the laws.

Robert Greene is a storyteller telling a story in a way that grabs and holds attention.

Taken at face value, this law directly contradicts some of the other laws.

Well, the point was not to judge Robert Greene... The point is to judge the idea. You're refuting an argument against Greene's character, which was not the argument.

 

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[SDE]

Most self-help literature focuses on the good side of human nature. It educates an individual on how to attain one's ideal and live in harmony with others assuming others have your best interest as well.

Meanwhile, the book 48 Laws of power, focuses mostly on the bad side of human nature. It tells "this is how manipulative, cruel and selfish people are and here are the 48 tools men & women throughout history used, to handle these type of people and the situations they created."

It's better to be familiar with this other side as well to know the type of people we are dealing with. The world of politics and corporate workplace are filled mostly with these kind (crabs in a bucket).

 

[Silverfox148]

Gas prices at my local Costco are north of $4.29(Phoenix), fueled up both my vehicles this week and the lines were a mess.

Gas attendant was pretty frustrated and hoped the shit show would end soon, he said most of the line was due to people coming in and topping off everyday, vehicle in front of me only pumped 4 gallons, he had to wait 15-20 minutes to do that.

Gas prices are not the end of the world for me as I am diligent and have reserves and good salary, but I wonder how this will hit people who live paycheck to paycheck(or do they even care?).

I am seeing some good inflation on items that have stayed constant but have shot up lately, did an oil change on my pickup and could not find Mobile 1 Oil in Costco so I went with their Kirtland brand, it was $10 bucks above their usual price. The oil filter I actually couldn't find in the first WalMart and found it at a second a few days later, that oil filter used to be $4 bucks when I first bought it 5 years ago, is now $10 or so.

Just goes to show, if you are holding actual dollars, it's a losing game in terms of inflation.

 

[Lex DeVille]

Well, the point was not to judge Robert Greene... The point is to judge the idea. You're refuting an argument against Greene's character, which was not the argument.

I prefer Dale Carnegie's approaches when it comes to credit, praise, and appreciation.

I'm definitely anti pirate when it comes to credit...



Who wants credit anyway? Feels way better to let others take credit, especially for work they did haha.

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

I prefer Dale Carnegie's approaches when it comes to credit, praise, and appreciation.

I'm definitely anti pirate when it comes to credit...

View attachment 42490

Who wants credit anyway? Feels way better to let others take credit, especially for work they did haha.

It is nice to feel appreciated

Love Jack Sparrow though, want to be him, who doesn't

 

[Fox]

Loving the more frequent YT videos MJ!

View: https://youtu.be/Baw0N7B-jV4

If I lived in the states this is exactly what I would have on my bookshelf too ha.

 

[MTF]

I always say that being ruthless (in a SMART way) in business is going to make you more money than being a good guy (or at least it will do so faster). And people always balk when they hear that… because everyone wants the good guys to win.

But, reality from my experience isn’t like that. The richest people I know $100M+ are all exceedingly ruthless. Maybe they don’t put that image publically, but behind closed doors and in private this is how they are. Publically of course they want to appear fatherly and caring about their people, etc etc. It’s a facade.

This is beyond sad.

Sorry but only psychopaths would be so obsessed about money to choose to be ruthless and evil just to make more.

Or maybe I believe more in humanity and an average person's good character and peacefulness than you do.

I disagree. You like being ruthless and feared because you want to dominate others, to lord over them, to have control over their lives. Why? You like feeling powerful and superior. What desire could be more natural (note, not moral, but natural, there is a difference)? The strong lion kills the weak lion, takes his female and murders all his children.

Preying on others is not natural. "Lording" over them and having control over them borders on madness.

Also, if the desire for power is natural for humans, then I guess I'm a tree since I have no such desire.

What is a true leader? Most people on this forum think a “true leader” is a guy who wants to serve others and provide value. And yet, most leaders historically have been just the opposite. For every Ghandi out there, there are 3-4 Hitlers.

A true leader is someone you follow because they inspire you and because in some way, you love them, not fear them. And yes, I'd agree that a true leader is a guy who cares about other people. It's someone who builds things instead of destroying them.

Of course, evil leaders are still leaders but IMO they aren't true leaders because they destroy the world instead of making it better.

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

I always say that being ruthless (in a SMART way) in business is going to make you more money than being a good guy (or at least it will do so faster). And people always balk when they hear that… because everyone wants the good guys to win.

But, reality from my experience isn’t like that. The richest people I know $100M+ are all exceedingly ruthless. Maybe they don’t put that image publically, but behind closed doors and in private this is how they are. Publically of course they want to appear fatherly and caring about their people, etc etc. It’s a facade.

What Greene is saying there isn’t opposed to what you’re saying. Of course, compliment and encourage the fools! Give them accolades and medals, bla bla. But you TAKE ALL THE MONEY (this is what taking credit means in business - give them everything else, but make sure you take the dollars)! As Napoleon used to say, a soldier will give his life for a little piece of red ribbon. The “red ribbon” is what you say. Give it to them and in exchange use their life and energy for your purposes - that’s what Napoleon (and Greene) says.


I disagree. You like being ruthless and feared because you want to dominate others, to lord over them, to have control over their lives. Why? You like feeling powerful and superior. What desire could be more natural (note, not moral, but natural, there is a difference)? The strong lion kills the weak lion, takes his female and murders all his children.

So there is nothing psychologically wrong with this. Sure, it is morally weak and corrupt, but that’s a different discussion. Moral deformation isn’t a psychological issue, but a spiritual one that is specific to human beings who are capable of reason and have a spiritual nature.

Also, psychopaths (who do have a psychological or brain issue) aren’t morally evil by default. They do, however, have a much easier time being morally evil than other people since they lack the ability to feel empathy naturally.

The way you become evil is a slipper slope. It doesn’t happen all at once. Today a small evil, tomorrow another one, and soon you’re committing bigger and bigger acts of evil. And the smaller acts of evil that used to give you pause, you now do them out of habit. This is how I see sin - as a very strong habit that, if you continue in it, makes it harder and harder to resist doing evil.


What is a true leader? Most people on this forum think a “true leader” is a guy who wants to serve others and provide value. And yet, most leaders historically have been just the opposite. For every Ghandi out there, there are 3-4 Hitlers.

It isn’t easy being a Hitler. Hitler did have real leadership abilities. Used to do evil, of course, but make no mistake about it, he was a charismatic leader who galvanized people.

And Hitler wasn’t a psychopath… we like to say he was to distance ourselves from our potentially evil side and to think that you can’t be a normal person and be like that. But I think the whole point of studying history is to learn that you don’t have to be a psychopath or have psychological problems to become grotesquely evil. We are all capable of great evil… and that has to give us pause and help us keep ourselves in check.

I don’t think leadership abilities or being successful quantified solely by your status, position or money have anything to do with morality.

I completely disagree. I do not care at all about "lording over" anybody and I think it's just silly, most of what you wrote here makes no sense, it's just nuts.

The point of wealth is freedom, to have nice things, to do what you want. If what you want is to cause other people pain and suffering or to "lord over" others, you have other problems... That's beyond money, business, success, whatever. It's a whole other personal issue.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I do not care at all about "lording over"

He disagrees...

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

He disagrees...

View attachment 42493

You're right MJ.

I don't know whether to laugh, cry, or go grab my musket.

Leaning towards musket.

edit: he literally has the Emperor Palpatine outfit on.

edit2: FBI - it's a joke. And please, FBI, stop being on Schwab's side, for Pete's sake.

 

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[loop101]

He disagrees...

View attachment 42493

Riff Raff wants his vest back

 

[Black_Dragon43]

I completely disagree. I do not care at all about "lording over" anybody and I think it's just silly, most of what you wrote here makes no sense, it's just nuts.

You may not, I don’t know you personally so I can’t comment. From my observation, most people who don’t want to dominate others lack fangs - they are like domesticated animals, they aren’t good out of strength, but they’re rather good out of weakness. There are, of course, others who become good despite having big shadows in Jungian terms - this is developing moral excellence, which in my experience is a very hard thing.

I think moral goodness is something that we have to work for all our lives. I don’t claim to be a good person, I’m just trying to be better than yesterday.

The point of wealth is freedom, to have nice things, to do what you want. If what you want is to cause other people pain and suffering or to "lord over" others, you have other problems... That's beyond money, business, success, whatever. It's a whole other personal issue.

I agree with you, for us, the people here. But we represent a small percentage of entrepreneurs imo.

Or maybe I believe more in humanity and an average person's good character and peacefulness than you do.

You probably believe that people naturally have a predisposition to good. I don’t think this is true, and if you look at our history (not just the past 50 years), and also at the history of the animal kingdom on earth, you’ll see the opposite.

Being a Christian, I do believe in original sin, but religious discussions aren’t allowed on the forum, so if you’re curious about that feel free to DM me.

Preying on others is not natural. "Lording" over them and having control over them borders on madness.

Also, if the desire for power is natural for humans, then I guess I'm a tree since I have no such desire.

Then why does the strong lion murder the weak lion and then kills his children also? The desire for power and dominance is natural if you look at the animal kingdom, and us humans have evolved from animals. Our spiritual nature and reason is what differentiates us, but goodness is not the natural tendency, we have to fight against our natural predilections which are towards dominance and power - ie, climbing the hierarchy.

 

[MTF]

You probably believe that people naturally have a predisposition to good. I don’t think this is true, and if you look at our history (not just the past 50 years), and also at the history of the animal kingdom on earth, you’ll see the opposite.

What I see is more and more humans living better and better lives. Very few people killing the weak, let alone killing their children.

If humans were evil by nature there would be no civilization since you would never want to collaborate with anyone, knowing they'll put a knife in your back at the first opportunity.

Yet, here we are, 99%+ of humans living peaceful lives without violence and other terrible things you mentioned.

I'm a rational optimism and I guess you're a cynic. No way to agree on anything here

 

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[Kak]

 

[Silverfox148]

Interesting discussion on Robert Greene, I personally own 3-4 of his books, Greene is just an author, if you watch some of his interviews you can tell he is not a master manipulator, etc. He is just someone who has studied the power/seduction dynamic between humans and writes about it. I believe most of his content is accurate when it comes to power hungry/power/corporate dynamics.

The most interesting part of all this is why his books sell so well, I recently bought a book of his at Goodwill for a couple of bucks and flipped it immediately for 15 bucks on eBay. I think this is uniquely an American phenomenon with "leadership" and the culture directly and indirectly telling us since childhood we need to be "leaders", etc. I don't see this in other countries, in fact "leadership" never even gets talked about at all now that I think of it. America as a whole is obsessed with leadership.

The world in which Greene's laws are best used are not the types of worlds I want to be in( Prison, War Zones, Corporate), etc. If you find yourself in those worlds then by all means read his books and apply the strategies, otherwise be kind and firm when needed to others and you will leave a much more fulfilling life.

 

[MTF]

I think this is uniquely an American phenomenon with "leadership" and the culture directly and indirectly telling us since childhood we need to be "leaders", etc. I don't see this in other countries, in fact "leadership" never even gets talked about at all now that I think of it. America as a whole is obsessed with leadership.

I think America is one of the countries that most worship individuals. There are much fewer prominent "leaders" in other countries compared to the US and more focus on collaboration/group efforts without giving all credit to one leader. This is both good and bad.

The world in which Greene's laws are best used are not the types of worlds I want to be in( Prison, War Zones, Corporate), etc. If you find yourself in those worlds then by all means read his books and apply the strategies, otherwise be kind and firm when needed to others and you will leave a much more fulfilling life.

Good observation.

 

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[Antifragile]

What I see is more and more humans living better and better lives. Very few people killing the weak, let alone killing their children.

Food was a major problem for tribes when humans lived and behaved like animals. Today we have food and shelter (most of us). In the last 50 years we went from majority (!) of the world in poverty to to barely 1/7 of the world in poverty. Until 1966, extreme poverty was the rule, not the exception.

I squared off with BD in another thread over his claim that he would let his (hypothetical) kids die for $100,000 ransom. He said we must not negotiate with kidnappers, instead we must teach them a lesson and let them murder our kids.

I would not only negotiate, I would become a fierce animal with no morals to protect and get back my family. Outside of extreme cases like this, I see no reason to want to lord over other people. Every dictator I can think of ended up paranoid and alone - because he couldn’t trust anyone. There is a reason for that. That behaviour is neither natural nor healthy.

My 0.02 cents.

 

[Raoul Duke]