The Ukraine War, implications, outcome?

[JordanK]

Where do you draw the line in the sand and say enough is enough?

I understand the comments about leaving areas of instability and not tying yourself to geography (especially when you aren't born & have family in an area) but eventually where do you go to? It is a calculation every person has to make for themselves after weighing up their own individual circumstances.

"If good men do not enact violence on our behalf then evil shall triumph"

We have police officers in our countries who put themselves in harms way everyday to defend our freedoms and ensure others don't impose their will upon us.

The Ukrainian government is far from perfect and corruption is rampant but I would rather live under them than Putin as they afford more freedoms to their citizens. I will always side with the person or entity that offers more freedom (even if that freedom is flawed or could be improved. Which it needs to be)

Ireland where I am from is a country that was historically occupied and abused by a colonial power (the UK). Eventually we gained our freedom (in the south of Ireland) after years of guerrilla warfare versus a bigger military power. So forgive some of us Irish commentators if you believe we are wrong for supporting Ukraine but we view the situation from our personal experiences and history on our island. We see similarities in the situation unfolding in Ukraine. The north of Ireland remains in the United Kingdom due to a significant portion of its citizens wanting to remain with the UK while another significant part wants to be apart of the Republic of Ireland. The bloody war over this territory only officially ended in 1998. We have excellent relations for the most part with the United Kingdom today (most of us only speak English and no longer Gaeilge Irish due to the length of this occupation). We have shared family ties to the UK and pursue a peaceful and fruitful coexistence which I am delighted with. That is not to say that someday in the future the dispute could restart and Brexit has already begun to test some of the cracks that exist in the north still but I am almost certain there will never be war again over this.

Ireland is a neutral country and NOT a member of NATO so if we were attacked there is no obligation for any other country to defend us. As was highlighted clearly to everyone in Ireland over the last few months when Russia announced they would conduct military drills off our coast (which were eventually moved outside our zone) and when Russian hackers crippled our national healthcare system for 2 months last year. The Russian ambassador to Ireland also went on national television here and assured us only a week ago that there would be no invasion and that we were idiots for even suggesting so.

That is why today I joined the protest outside their embassy pressuring our government to expel their diplomats.

The Irish Government announced on Day 1 of this conflict that we would accept all Ukrainian refugees and we suspended visa conditions for travel. This has resulted in many families living here being allowed to fly relatives into the country and spare them from this ongoing onslaught.

I have both Ukrainian and Russian friends due to the multicultural make up of Ireland and all of the travel that I do. The majority are horrified by this war.

As for the bigger picture, and this is completely my own opinion and feel free to disagree with it but I feel geopolitically this war is beneficial from a US strategic standpoint. They get to drag a rival into a conflict, support the armed opposition and completely hobble their geopolitical opponents military without firing a shot of their own. Tragically, thousands of innocent lives will be lost during all of this.

The US was already angry with European nations for not paying enough to sustain their own militaries (Ireland spends 1billion per year (0.2% of GDP on military). That will all change now. Also, European nations including Ireland and Germany have been playing both sides of the field on geopolitical issues with Russia and CHINA. That will also change now.

- Ireland entices US, European and Chinese companies to set up here and effectively pay no tax. We are the global headquarters for every major tech company in existence on this planet. This is effectively a drain on the national tax treasuries of countries like America and contributes to your massive debt.

- Germany continues buying Russian fuel making themselves almost completely reliant on it while getting the US to protect them. They also continue selling cars to China and buying solar panels etc..

Edit: I also wanted to add that Ireland, UK, France, Italy, Germany, Spain etc are all awash in Russian oligarch money and influence. All it takes is one walk down the promenade of Marbella, the streets of London or the yacht bays in Monaco/Ibiza to witness the dictatorship money of this world on display. Hopefully, this event will be a trigger for a lot of that that blood money, gained by the exploitation of their nations and it's people to be seized.

 

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[daivey]

With all due respect, only very naive and idealistic teenagers who aren't aware how terrible war and death is can say something like that.

You have only ONE life. Losing your life is the ULTIMATE price. There's no free respawning here.

You're a young, smart, successful guy with your whole life ahead of you. Perhaps you'll lift out of poverty thousands of people around the world through your business endeavors. Perhaps you'll start a nice, big family and your children will become great scientists. Perhaps you'll start a non-profit that will solve a big problem. All of these are worth way more than being yet another casualty of war.

We don't live in a tribalistic, war-mongering world anymore. You get to choose where you want to live and NOBODY should ever be told they should throw away their lives if they can cross a border and live in peace.

Would you really be ready to die today and throw it all away? I think it's very easy to say it when your life isn't in danger.

War is not only death. It's also mangled bodies. Raped women. Children killed in front of you. You killing other people. Others trying to kill you. Never-ending anxiety and fear. Hunger. Destruction. Poverty. Atrocities.

All for what? For an idiotic conflict caused by old men who can't solve their differences like REAL men (and that's not through violence but through dialogue).

That's my big problem with patriotism and why I'm a cosmopolite. People are dying trying to protect an imaginary line on the map because someone brainwashed them it's their "duty" to sacrifice their only life so that politicians can keep enjoying their lives as they argue with each other.

If somebody wants to fight out of their own volition, let them fight. They're free to choose that.

But leave the peaceful people to decide what they want to do with their lives. They have no f*cking obligation to protect a made-up place just because luck decided that's where they were born in that period of history.



And 2-3 generations ago, if you were an atheist, they would have deemed you the devil. And 2-3 generations ago, if you hit your wife regularly, they would have deemed you a cool guy. And 2-3 generations ago in many Eastern European countries if you were an entrepreneur, they would have deemed you the worst scum on Earth. Who cares how they would judge you?

Were the Jews who fled Europe before World War 2 cowards and traitors? Or should they have all stayed to enjoy with their entire families the abominable atrocities and become yet another wiped out generation?

Is a guy walking at night with his girlfriend a coward and a traitor if he grabs his girlfriend and runs away from a group of thugs? Or should he perhaps stay and be f*cking sliced and diced in front of his girlfriend so that someone can later call him a (dead) hero?

Is a father of a family of four fleeing a war-torn country to set roots elsewhere a coward and traitor? Do you really think that his wife and kids would want him to stay behind and die? Or would they want him to go with them and be an actual father and enjoy their lives in peace somewhere else in the world? It would be selfish of him to put his country (a made-up concept where he was randomly born at that period of time) over his family (real living people who want him alive around them).

I'm sorry but this bullshit about being a coward and a traitor is just idiotic. Your only concern should be your own life and the life of your family. The rest are made-up concepts and cultural brainwashing to convince naive young men it's cool to be a dead hero (while your parents, siblings, partner, children, and friends grieve you their entire lives).

here here, someone that gets it...

imagine dying for a flag pole.. in ukraine/russia of all places.. you're literally being invaded by your cousins.. if you surrender, tomorrow you can go back to watching netflix your life unaffected.

unreal the western media pushing the warhawk nonsense.

 

[JordanK]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RibAQHeDia8


Going to add this video/documentary too just for context. Obviously it is produced by Netflix in 2015 and will have a 'Western' slant on things but its a good start for anyone who wants to get a basis around key events in Ukraine over the last ten years that have led up to this moment. You can then do your own independent research once you understand the timeline of things and form your own opinions.

Edit: Also for comedy. Check out this video of the president Zelensky from when he was a television actor.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497771809751588864

 

[Xeon]

There's some posters here who are not blindly shouting "Russia bad!" or "F*ck Putin!". That's surprising especially since they appear to be from western countries.

Notice that while this loud voice is echoing support for Ukraine, nation states are taking tax-payer funds to "help ukraine". What does Trudeau or Biden have to do with funding Ukraine? Why are we shoveling billions of dollars into the military complex whilst our own nations are suffering from inflation, stalling economies, and high unemployment?

To maintain American global hegemony.

Also, I am not anti-Trump, I prefer Trump over Biden in many ways.

Forget Trump or Biden. You and the other guy Hadrid reminds me of one person.....George War Bush.

he’s a hero who is standing up to Putin and risking his life doing so.

That's the US narrative they're pushing through branding and marketing. Both Russia and the US are not heroes or angels. It's only who is the bigger devil. And looking at history, the US is a far scarier nation than Russia.

Now that I ask any of you, when you look at Mr. Biden, do you feel scared, even if he gets angry?

Yes, very scared. Because he's a total puppet and we don't know who's running him from behind the scenes. The world does not know what's the endgame his mastermind planned. Is it to plunge Europe into chaos so that the US can somehow benefit through profits? Oil? Military industrial complex?

Now, as a Ukrainian whose family is in Kyiv and near it I can offer you to:
1. Ask questions and get your answers right here.
2. Keep consuming biased

1) Putin wants to invade Ukraine, but do you feel the US gov has been adding fuel and fire to the whole thing to see it burn?

2) Do you believe that the US government has Ukraine's interests and people at heart, without any motives? Looking at all the countries in the past that the US gov has meddled in, such as Iraq, Iran, Cuba, Panama, Afghanistan, Syria etc, have you entertained the possibility that Ukraine will become like these nations? Because any one country that gets too close to the US government always has a tragic ending?

3) Pirogov, the museum of folk architecture south of Kyiv......is this place still intact, or has it already been bombed to pieces and shreds by the war?

 

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[simxela]

if you surrender, tomorrow you can go back to watching netflix your life unaffected.

Russians are surrendering.

 

[simxela]

1) Putin wants to invade Ukraine, but do you feel the US gov has been adding fuel and fire to the whole thing to see it burn?

2) Do you believe that the US government has Ukraine's interests and people at heart, without any motives? Looking at all the countries in the past that the US gov has meddled in, such as Iraq, Iran, Cuba, Panama, Afghanistan, Syria etc, have you entertained the possibility that Ukraine will become like these nations? Because any one country that gets too close to the US government always has a tragic ending?

3) Pirogov, the museum of folk architecture south of Kyiv......is this place still intact, or has it already been bombed to pieces and shreds by the war?

1) Yes and no. Since 2014 when Russia invaded Ukraine US, the world was too soft. Ukraine needed help then, while the world just watched. Now they're helping. So... You can make your own decisions, but to me this relationship is an alliance. No more no less. Ukraine benefits. US benefits. In the long run, of course.
Now it's war. Now people die.

In the long run, Ukraine will defend its independence (the right to make your own decisions).
US - maybe they'll flip Russia from an enemy to an ally (when Putin is gone).

2) US have their own interests in mind, Ukraine has its own. It's an alliance.
I don't pretend to know what the US interest is.
I only know the UA side of things.
My great-grandparents suffered from Russia, so it's not like this is a new issue between UA vs RU. Ukraine has defeated Russia in the past, and it's trying to do it again. US is pursuing their own interests and helping Ukraine achieve its goals. The interests align at this time. US won its independence with the help of other countries, just a reminder. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

3) Pirogiv should be fine. It's just a big park. No point in bombing it. I or my parents haven't heard anything about it. This night though, there was a rocket strike on a nuclear waste storage facility about 10 minute drive from there. So, there's that.

 

[daivey]

Russians are surrendering.

yeah, on reddit.. right.

 

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[simxela]

yeah, on reddit.. right.

Discover Popular Videos | Facebook

Video is the place to enjoy videos and shows together. Watch the latest reels, discover original shows and catch up with your favorite creators.

fb.watch

For those who don't speak Ukrainian, the gist is: We don't want you. You shouldn't have come. Nobody's even taking your bodies back home.

 

[Xeon]

1) Yes and no. Since 2014 when Russia invaded Ukraine US, the world was too soft. Ukraine needed help then, while the world just watched. Now they're helping. So... You can make your own decisions, but to me this relationship is an alliance. No more no less. Ukraine benefits. US benefits. In the long run, of course.
Now it's war. Now people die.

In the long run, Ukraine will defend its independence (the right to make your own decisions).
US - maybe they'll flip Russia from an enemy to an ally (when Putin is gone).

2) US have their own interests in mind, Ukraine has its own. It's an alliance.
I don't pretend to know what the US interest is.
I only know the UA side of things.
My great-grandparents suffered from Russia, so it's not like this is a new issue between UA vs RU. Ukraine has defeated Russia in the past, and it's trying to do it again. US is pursuing their own interests and helping Ukraine achieve its goals. The interests align at this time. US won its independence with the help of other countries, just a reminder. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

3) Pirogiv should be fine. It's just a big park. No point in bombing it. I or my parents haven't heard anything about it. This night though, there was a rocket strike on a nuclear waste storage facility about 10 minute drive from there. So, there's that.

Thank you for the insight especially about Pirogov.



Anyway, in addition to another member's post earlier where he posted a video from YouTuber Coachredpill (who's in Kyiv now), here's another one which I feel he explains his thoughts better than what some of us including myself are articulating :

He offers an alternative viewpoint from what the largely western-centric media is reporting.

 

[simxela]

He offers an alternative viewpoint from what the largely western-centric media is reporting.

He says: "They wanna capture it. Intact"

This is an accurate representation.

And this is why the world needs to help Ukraine.
Would you like your house be captured, intact?

 

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[Timmy C]

Gold lol.

438K views · 28K likes | Carlo Salanitri | Sooshi Mango on Instagram: "Searching for a bomb shelter"

29K likes, 1,639 comments - carlosalanitriFebruary 25, 2022 on : "Searching for a bomb shelter".

www.instagram.com

 

[hellolin]

There's some posters here who are not blindly shouting "Russia bad!" or "f*ck Putin!". That's surprising especially since they appear to be from western countries.




To maintain American global hegemony.




Forget Trump or Biden. You and the other guy Hadrid reminds me of one person.....George War Bush.




That's the US narrative they're pushing through branding and marketing. Both Russia and the US are not heroes or angels. It's only who is the bigger devil. And looking at history, the US is a far scarier nation than Russia.




Yes, very scared. Because he's a total puppet and we don't know who's running him from behind the scenes. The world does not know what's the endgame his mastermind planned. Is it to plunge Europe into chaos so that the US can somehow benefit through profits? Oil? Military industrial complex?




1) Putin wants to invade Ukraine, but do you feel the US gov has been adding fuel and fire to the whole thing to see it burn?

2) Do you believe that the US government has Ukraine's interests and people at heart, without any motives? Looking at all the countries in the past that the US gov has meddled in, such as Iraq, Iran, Cuba, Panama, Afghanistan, Syria etc, have you entertained the possibility that Ukraine will become like these nations? Because any one country that gets too close to the US government always has a tragic ending?

3) Pirogov, the museum of folk architecture south of Kyiv......is this place still intact, or has it already been bombed to pieces and shreds by the war?

The US's business model, hmm, country's business model, as the newfoundland, necessarily needs the old world to plunge into chaos. In this case, just needed a bit more chaotic than the US itself, so human and financial capital can flow back into the states.

 

[MitchC]

Gold lol.

438K views · 28K likes | Carlo Salanitri | Sooshi Mango on Instagram: "Searching for a bomb shelter"

29K likes, 1,639 comments - carlosalanitriFebruary 25, 2022 on : "Searching for a bomb shelter".

www.instagram.com

How’d you like Dan Andrews contributions?

 

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[MitchC]

242. Andy & DJ CTI: Crypto Regulations, New Supreme Court Judge & Joy Behar's Vacation

Listen to this episode from REAL AF with Andy Frisella on Spotify. In today's episode, Andy & DJ discuss how the western mainstream media has manipulated the conflict between Russia & Ukraine for political reasons, how this war will impact the freedoms we have left in America, and how we can...

open.spotify.com

Just listening to Andy’s new podcast, I have not listened to this show before but I think this is going to be a good and relevant episode.

Edit: everyone should listen to this, there’s people hinting at it in this thread but Andy just comes out and tells it like it is. The problem is, the people who need to listen to it won’t, they watch CNN or whatever CNN in their country is and think they know everything already.

 

[Xeon]

He says: "They wanna capture it. Intact"

This is an accurate representation.

And this is why the world needs to help Ukraine.
Would you like your house be captured, intact?

If it means that me and my family will be safe, but that my house will be captured intact by the enemy, then yes, I would like my house captured intact.

Anyway, all that matters now is for the war to end fast to minimize the loss of lives. Because of that, I personally don't like the idea of Uncle Sam and his friends sending weapons to Ukraine, because it'll only cause more chaos and prolong the war, which is Uncle Sam's goal. In a way, UA and RU have already lost the moment Putin made the first strike.

 

[Kevin88660]

Thank you for the insight especially about Pirogov.



Anyway, in addition to another member's post earlier where he posted a video from YouTuber Coachredpill (who's in Kyiv now), here's another one which I feel he explains his thoughts better than what some of us including myself are articulating :

He offers an alternative viewpoint from what the largely western-centric media is reporting.

He is just making it clear to people who do not understands basic military knowledge 101.

After having full complete control of in the air, Russia could win the war with very minimal casualty, through waves of bombing. Once water and electricity are cut off, any resistance is paralyzed.

After you are in control, the more aggressively you kill your enemy, the safer it is more your own soldiers.

What Russian force is doing now is something that is pretty dangerous in my opinion. They are putting Ukrainian civilian and enemy force’ lives at a much higher priority and this will inevitably results in higher Russian casualty.

Americans obliterate because they put their own soldiers’ lives at highest priority.

 

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[simxela]

If it means that me and my family will be safe, but that my house will be captured intact by the enemy, then yes, I would like my house captured intact.

Anyway, all that matters now is for the war to end fast to minimize the loss of lives. Because of that, I personally don't like the idea of Uncle Sam and his friends sending weapons to Ukraine, because it'll only cause more chaos and prolong the war, which is Uncle Sam's goal. In a way, UA and RU have already lost the moment Putin made the first strike.

I understand your reasoning, but what if we "skew the value array" towards a more realistic scenario. They capture your house intact. Your family survive at that moment, but you're imprisoned for 10 years, or executed later?

Ukrainians are fighting because Russia's occupation will mean death.
If Ukraine surrenders, it'll open the doors of hell to Ukrainians, like it did to Crimean Tatars since 2014.

There's also difference in values. Ukrainians (not all, of course) value freedom above safety.
That's why Ukrainians have popular revolutions and demonstrations, but Russia doesn't.

 

[Marigold]

This feels like mass formation all over again.

Don't forget - right before this war broke out, the stink of global corruption around the jab narrative was beginning to gather steam. Our elites have lied and manipulated the global population. Billions of people have been injected with a product with no available safety profile, pushed by fraudulent trial studies, under a false "emergency" pretense.

Most countries are still under a "state of emergency", and our politicians paired with interest groups have been acting lawlessly.

I get it, this is a pivotal moment in history, but be mindful not to fall for the narrative change. Keep your eyes open.

All the Ukraine support I see reminds me of the same foolishness we saw at the beginning of the pandemic when everybody was condemning anybody that dared to speak out against what was happening. Notice how the consensus around the happenings rn are centered around "Support Ukraine, Russia bad evil". This is not by accident. This is a narrative that's being pushed out.

Notice all the "Zelensky is a hero" narratives. Notice how this man most people knew next to nothing about is being praised as some hero. Notice that while this loud voice is echoing support for Ukraine, nation states are taking tax-payer funds to "help ukraine". What does Trudeau or Biden have to do with funding Ukraine? Why are we shoveling billions of dollars into the military complex whilst our own nations are suffering from inflation, stalling economies, and high unemployment?

I don't know who's at fault here, and what we ought to do about it as individuals other than to stay focused on our own problems and not get carried away with narratives. We have serious problems all around the world due to the same people that are now pushing for "democracy". The sheeple pushing for war spending to "defend democracy in Ukraine" need to pay attention to how "defend public health" has been pillaging our nations' coffers for 2 straight years.

To the "defend democracy in Ukraine" group: what do you really know about history, about Ukraine, about geopolitics? Are you sure you're not just echoing what you see on the internet as the prevailing morally "good" opinion?

The fact that the entire mindspace has shifted focus from anything else to "save Ukraine" should be a reminder to you that the internet, media, radio, academia, public health, national organizations, are all echoing the same thing. Ask yourself why.

Couldn't agree more.

"I need ammunition, not a ride"

Forgive my cynicism but kinda sounds like John McClane from Die Hard...

The world is a stage.

 

[Feuertaufe]

Germany on Saturday reversed a historic policy of never sending weapons to conflict zones, saying the Russian invasion of Ukraine was an epochal moment that imperiled the entire post-World War II order across Europe.

1000 Antitank Javalin Missiles
500 Stinger Antiaircraft Missiles

One small step forward in helping to secure freedom for the 40 million citizens of Ukraine and countering the fascist Russian dictatorship and his ring of brutal Satellite states...

Putin's war on Europe must be halted and reversed!

Germany to send Ukraine weapons in historic shift on military aid

Until Saturday, Germany had a longstanding practice of blocking lethal weapons from being sent to conflict zones.

www.politico.eu

And here we (germans) go again. Dragged in someone elses war like 1914.... I could puke. i think its just the beginning ... and hopefully i am wrong. I wish we could be more like Switzerland, neutral and with more direct democracy.

 

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[Xeon]

Your family survive at that moment, but you're imprisoned for 10 years, or executed later?

Ukrainians are fighting because Russia's occupation will mean death.
If Ukraine surrenders, it'll open the doors of hell to Ukrainians, like it did to Crimean Tatars since 2014

But the thing is, if you're just a common Ukrainian citizen and not Zelensky or the ministers, would you actually be imprisoned or executed by the Russians? Assuming that Russia somehow won the war, Ukraine would at most be what it was like during Viktor Yanukovych's era? Would there actually be a difference? It's like the two parties in the US gov, Republicans and Democrats, both taking turns to play angel and devil to the population. Ukrainians would still go about their daily lives.

Bear in mind, the Crimean tartars are of a different ethnicity and the way the Russians treated them is more like ethnic cleansing to me. Hitler and the Jews. The general population of Ukraine = Russia, and from what I read, Russians are originally from modern day Kyiv.

If Putin really wished to destroy Ukraine, pretty sure he would have used his more powerful options during the first 12 hours when his attack caught Ukraine and the world by surprise. He had first mover advantage : cut off water supply, electricity, internet and comms, and not just bombings of the naval and air bases.

-Putin is insane to do the first strike on Ukraine

-Zelensky should never have kept angering Putin by wanting to join NATO, because that would mean US missiles right at Russia's doorstep (btw, what would the US gov say if Russia builds missile bases in the northernmost part of Mexico or in Ontario, Canada?)

-the US and her underlings should stop selling and giving weapons to Ukraine to add fuel to the fire. What is their motive?

All these are just based on my layman's view of reading anti-Russian and pro-Russian news of this war, what do I know.

The news say Ukrainian military allowed the captured Russian soldiers (young conscripts) to call their parents and were given food and water. Not sure how true this is, and this is probably a ploy to soften the Russian soldiers' morale, but it is heartening to see this happen anyway.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

That's the US narrative they're pushing through branding and marketing. Both Russia and the US are not heroes or angels. It's only who is the bigger devil. And looking at history, the US is a far scarier nation than Russia.

If you think the US is the bigger devil then you don’t know Russian history very well. You’re talking about people like Stalin, a man who is responsible for more deaths than Hitler. You’re talking about the mass murder of kulaks, the starvation of the Ukrainian people, the gulags (very similar to concentration camps) and so on. It’s a RIDICULOUS claim to think that the US is the bigger devil.

I live in a country with a communist past. I know what communism means - it means oppression, death, and enslavement. Far worse than what exists today, amidst all the corruption and “bad” american influence. It means you can get a knock on your door in the middle of the night, have a security officer tell you to pull your pants down, get raped and then brutally murdered. It means your own brother selling his family out for a comfortable position with the government. And so on. So if you think that Russia and China are morally superior you’re either a propagandist or you simply don’t know history.

US > China and Russia any day when it comes to morality throughout history. China and Russia simply have none, especially the former (if you look at Ancient Chinese history, the period of the Three Kingdoms or the Warring States you’ll see that Chinese rulers would kill even their own family to stay in power… they’d sell their daughters into sexual slavery if they had to).

It is quite troubling for me to see so many from Western countries in this thread defending Russia. It means that the propaganda machine of the Kremlin is working, which is very worrying.

View: https://youtu.be/bX3EZCVj2XA


Russia and China have both had extensive experience in propaganda. I remember the communist times… “Does anyone oppose?” the chairman of the Politburo would ask, looking menacingly around the room… and NO ONE opposed. Xi Jinping got voted Chairman for life with 100% of the vote. No one opposed. Stupid people think “ohhh it’s the will of the people, look, democracy!” But the truth is that anyone who opposes, the next day they are deposed. What does deposed mean? It doesn’t mean “You rascal, how dare you vote against Xi?” … no, it means “We’ve found evidence of corruption and that you tried to seize government property for your own benefit. You’re now under arrest”

Now everyone KNOWS this - they are the unspoken rules of the game. You think if Putin’s spy chief, this guy, opposes Putin on an issue his head will still be on his shoulders the next day?!

View: https://youtu.be/ucEs0nBuowE


There is NO DISSENT in Russia. There is no opposing the party line. There is no disagreement. Disagreement is met with instantaneous retribution. And the same is true for China. The same is true for Saudi Arabia. The same is true for all those barbaric regimes which know nothing about the rule of law and human rights.

 

[kristkaa]

The guy in the video is saying that howitzers and heavy weaponry on civilian hands are dangerous(and the Ukrainian government is basically using civilians as human shields by doing so). And the Russian army has every right and obligation to destroy such heavy weapons. But how about not placing your troops in the capital of a neighbouring country at all?

Of course we can say that this wouldn't have happened if the US/Nato/West would not have put Russia in such a place at all. And a lot of lying and stuff is going on (as the AF saying in the podcast quoted above). Everyone has self-interests and that is expected. But it appears that for many people, because there is coming a lot of BS from media (which it is) and because of Ukrainian gov & people are also using propaganda (which they certainly are) must mean that therefore the RU government is right(or at least less wrong) in what they are doing.

There is a point that life is more precious than who's in charge of the country. I share that view 100%. But that is not a simple choice that Ukrainans have to make. If Russia will occupy the country (or put a "friendly" regime in place). How'd they make sure that there will not be a new maidan again? Do they just leave instructions for the new regime on how to gently change public opinion and a pile of cash to invest in the country before next free elections(that they are OK to take place)?

Won't they have to make sure that "neonazis" won't get in charge again. How do you know that you wont be considered as someone who should be de-nazified and how exactly would "denazification" (that Russian gov is telling it is trying to achieve) take place? You can study Soviet history on how they'd achieved that before. It can be argued that it would be different this time but we are talking about an occupier who's ruler has almost absolute power and does not have a two-term limit.

Noone should call these people who flee cowards (no one can know what themselves would do in such a situation) and I also don't agree with forced conscription of civilian men into the Ukrainian army - all civilians should be able to choose if they flee or fight. But these 2 are only viable options imo. Living under Russian occupation for sane people is not.

 

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[Antti]

It is quite troubling for me to see so many from Western countries in this thread defending Russia. It means that the propaganda machine of the Kremlin is working, which is very worrying.

I was just thinking the same. Where I live only total whackos believe the Russian propaganda, probably because we have been dealing with it since the start of times and know what it is. I'm sure we have our blind spots in other issues so it's not like we are better than others. The Kremlin strategy is very simple, they invent stories that fit their narrative and then just repeat those lies over and over and over again. I guess many people think that there must be at least some truth because they so adamantly keep repeating it. Also, many people are probably frustrated with some things currently happening in western countries and it's tempting to cheer for the opponent, especially if you are at a safe distance. I don't think they necessarily deep down believe those things but it's still disheartening to see.

I believe that even with all it's faults, liberal democracy is by far the best governing system mankind has come up with and it's a huge priviledge to live in one.

 

[Marigold]

It is quite troubling for me to see so many from Western countries in this thread defending Russia. It means that the propaganda machine of the Kremlin is working, which is very worrying.

There are no good guys. That's the point. The propaganda machine is always working.

Have you read Tragedy and Hope: A History of the World in Our Time by Carroll Quigley? Apparently Quigley was a mentor of Clinton. It's a thoroughly sobering and depressing read.

​

 

[Marigold]

I was just thinking the same. Where I live only total whackos believe the Russian propaganda, probably because we have been dealing with it since the start of times and know what it is. I'm sure we have our blind spots in other issues so it's not like we are better than others. The Kremlin strategy is very simple, they invent stories that fit their narrative and then just repeat those lies over and over and over again. I guess many people think that there must be at least some truth because they so adamantly keep repeating it. Also, many people are probably frustrated with some things currently happening in western countries and it's tempting to cheer for the opponent, especially if you are at a safe distance. I don't think they necessarily deep down believe those things but it's still disheartening to see.

I believe that even with all it's faults, liberal democracy is by far the best governing system mankind has come up with and it's a huge priviledge to live in one.

I was just thinking the same. Where I live only total whackos believe the Western propaganda, probably because we have been dealing with it since the start of times and know what it is. I'm sure we have our blind spots in other issues so it's not like we are better than others. The Western strategy is very simple, they invent stories that fit their narrative and then just repeat those lies over and over and over again. I guess many people think that there must be at least some truth because they so adamantly keep repeating it. Also, many people are probably frustrated with some things currently happening in non-western countries and it's tempting to cheer for the opponent, especially if you are at a safe distance. I don't think they necessarily deep down believe those things but it's still disheartening to see.


^^^

 

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[kristkaa]

he Western strategy is very simple, they invent stories that fit their narrative and then just repeat those lies over and over and over again.

Russian propaganda is exactly the same only except that it takes away possibility to think differently by banning media that publicizes different ideas.

 

[Marigold]

Russian propaganda is exactly the same only except that it takes away possibility to think differently by banning media that publicizes different ideas.

Yes. That happens here too (the West).

 

[simxela]

But the thing is, if you're just a common Ukrainian citizen and not Zelensky or the ministers, would you actually be imprisoned or executed by the Russians? Assuming that Russia somehow won the war, Ukraine would at most be what it was like during Viktor Yanukovych's era? Would there actually be a difference? It's like the two parties in the US gov, Republicans and Democrats, both taking turns to play angel and devil to the population. Ukrainians would still go about their daily lives.

Bear in mind, the Crimean tartars are of a different ethnicity and the way the Russians treated them is more like ethnic cleansing to me. Hitler and the Jews. The general population of Ukraine = Russia, and from what I read, Russians are originally from modern day Kyiv.

If Putin really wished to destroy Ukraine, pretty sure he would have used his more powerful options during the first 12 hours when his attack caught Ukraine and the world by surprise. He had first mover advantage : cut off water supply, electricity, internet and comms, and not just bombings of the naval and air bases.

-Putin is insane to do the first strike on Ukraine

Zelenskiy and ministers ARE ordinary people. Many of the current MPs are ordinary people.
Ukrainians chose Zelenskiy, so he has to stay. If Ukrainians don't like him, Ukrainians will find someone else. It's that simple.

In Yanukovich era you could be "disappeared" for speaking out against the government. Would you like that happen to you? In Ukraine now you can insult the president into his face and you're free to do so. Free speech, free will, freedom.
In Russia you will be arrested or killed.

Example: my great grandfather was sentenced to execution. Do you know for what? He built a steam-powered mill. Yes. This is not a misspelling. ALL of Fastlaners would be sent to camps in those times. For working hard. The only thing that saved my great-grandfather (and hence why I exist) is the Chief of the prison camp saw how useful my gramps could be to a concentration camp (fixing, building stuff) and sent him there instead. He was an ordinary man.

Please, educate yourself on the history of the region before making conclusions. Read the posts by other members who have more knowledge (@kristkaa , @Black_Dragon43) If you find that your point of view contradicts what we all say, we, the people with more knowledge and experience in the matter, then maybe it's time to reconsider?

Please note that I'm not saying that the US are great.

-Zelensky should never have kept angering Putin by wanting to join NATO, because that would mean US missiles right at Russia's doorstep (btw, what would the US gov say if Russia builds missile bases in the northernmost part of Mexico or in Ontario, Canada?)

70% of Ukrainians opposed NATO before 2013.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

There are no good guys. That's the point. The propaganda machine is always working.

That there are no good guys is a point I can agree with, but to say that we can't choose between evils is wrong. It's our duty to side with the lesser evil.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ10LZo14wI&ab_channel=60MinutesAustralia

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Yes. That happens here too (the West).

No. Believe me, that's not what happens in the West. I've lived in a communist country (and also in a Western country, UK), I don't think you have. There is a very big difference. The kind of corruption and abuse of power that happens in the West is child's play to Russians or Chinese.