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A Mass of Mass Shootings... Guns? Or Mental Illness?

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Kak

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Add me to the list of people that carry a gun every day.

Gun control by the government, when an armed populace was written into this country's framework, basically as the 4th branch of government, is a conflict of interest akin to a president and supreme court conspiring to get rid of Congress.

The second amendment is not about personal protection or hunting. It is the ultimate veto power of the populace.
 
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Stargazer

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I think we should call for a total and complete shutdown of Americans entering the United Kingdom until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on! - to paraphrase a certain pillock.

Dan
 

MattR82

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This is also kinda my point, the gun industry is a self fulfilling industry; 1 person buys a gun and shoots someone with it now everyone in the neighbourhood wants one just to "protect" them selfs en so on till everyone has a gun.

If you turn it around noone has a gun, noone is threated and no one needs guns anymore.

Solution ban/restrict guns just like the rest of the western world
You can not only argue that that doesn't work as a solution, but that it's far too late to do that anyway now that there are more guns than people in the US.

It sucks to say, but it's not a realistic solution.
 
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Bertram

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+1 ... it's like a big melting pot of factors, an ingredient list that is multi-faceted in contributors.



Was this getting any play in the mainstream?

I've stopped paying attention to ALL NEWS nearly 2 years ago, from TV to websites to radio -- and that includes news that might reflect my particular narrative.

I'm simply tired of all of it.

I only heard about the shootings through word of mouth, not because I visited any website or watched any newscast.

I've come to the conclusion that I cannot trust any news outlet regardless of partisan spin or agenda.

Even reported FACTS has become problematic.

In short, you'll get FACTS reported that endorse a particular narrative, but other FACTS will be kept out of the narrative if it detracts from the thesis. This occurs regardless of bias or agenda, left or right. We can no longer expect to hear ALL the facts to make our own judgments, just the facts that foster an agenda.

And then don't even get me started on the "Las Vegas shooter" and how that event was whitewashed, despite 5,310 cameras in the the casino, arguably one of the safest, most surveilled places on the planet.
I vouch for this approach. There is nothing to be gained any longer from systematically using the media products labelled "news." Most of the content is human interest, opinion, policy, or sheer speculation.

Some news stories are 30% news and 70% opinion though they occupy the front page section.

Once I ended this time-wasting habit I found my mindset improved and lighter mood, and I also noticed by contrast how negative and passive my news-addict associates are.

Here's a useful d-mn fact the news products leave out:
For all the mass shootings carried out which make the news, state by state in the US there are THOUSANDS of mass shooter threats prevented by law enforcement agencies every month.

That's right, folks, we're actually living under the threat of hundreds of thousands of mass shootings in the US. Almost all are squashed in advance of the event by vigilant intervention.

Another fact:
The average violent criminal with intent to kill uses a gun 70 hrs a month.
The average target practice hours for US cops is 5-8 hours a month.

Keep your guns, upgrade your concealed carry but keep in practice too. The shooter practices with his weapon 70 hours a month.

Which is the more responsible choice, getting fake news or getting target practice?
 
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Bertram

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Reply to poster who believes mass shooters are products of right wing ideology:
Honey, the great many citizens who take direct, firsthand action to protect the lives of others without waiting first to be told what to do
are NOT liberal.

This response is not intended to be politically oriented. Blaming is baseless and disempowering.
 
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D

Deleted50669

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The debate over whether or not to strip people of guns is probably a mute point. If you take peoples' guns away, they will come at you with molotov cocktails. Gun possession is not the root cause issue here.
 

rollerskates

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I think it's probably mostly due to mental health issues that are situational. Especially increased isolation, which can happen even when surrounded by others. We HAVE TO care for each other, especially those around us and we must all communicate. Believe me when I say you can have no idea what mental health issues a loved one is going through because their spouse/SO/mother/father didn't tell anyone else until it was almost too late. Like @Andy Black is always quoting, Mother Teresa said "help one person at a time and start with the person next to you".

Parents, I don't care how much of a Nazi you have to be, turn off the TV and sign up for apps that track everything your teenager does. Better yet, don't allow them unsupervised access to the internet. They don't need social media, but if they do use it, like I said, track them. Issues that cause mass killings can take years to manifest themselves. Like someone above said, usually these shooter resent others. And how does that happen? It can happen from just looking at those around you, but I also know parents who constantly talk about money in front of their kids. "Look at that athlete, he just bought a $10 million house" WHO THE EFF CARES? Make your child a grateful and caring human being. No one grows up in a bubble and no should.

It isn't guns that are to blame, it's us. We the people, because we don't love each other enough and we don't teach others to love and we don't set a good example.
 

Process

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This society went from hard work and family oriented... to vapid consumerism for the sake of consuming rapidly since the 60's. You can see that as consumerism hyper-reality has accelerated, so has depression, drug use, suicide and violence. People are not genetically programmed to live this way.

From a young age in school people are told they are the most special snowflakes. Little John and Suzy are told they deserve all the goodies in the world for nothing. Unbalanced people respond to learning this is a total by lashing out at symbols and institutions of vapid consumerism. The media even gives them fifteen minutes of fame, so they feel like a special snowflake for a moment.

There have been semi and fully automatic weapons since the 1880's. Mass violence on random people only became pervasive since the 1960's. That was when the culture turned upside down.

TLDR: Mental health facilities put a band-aid on the wound. But, they won't solve it until people go back to valuing producing and quality relationships. People find meaning by being valuable, not a black hole of consumption.

People with identity and meaning don't kill themselves or random strangers. They have something to lose.
 
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Bertram

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There is no reason at all for anyone to carry a loaded gun around, the only legal reason is if its for goverment enforcement. If you like guns fine but keep the ammo at the shooting range where you can safely execute your sport.

This way you keep kids and mentely ill away from guns = no/far less shootings.

And for the argument that mentaly ill can use other weapons so taking guns away is pointless, yes that may be but trying to mass kill everyone with a knife is a damlot harder than with a gun.


But I understand its a culture thing in the US I hoop you guys come to your senses some day :)
Update Below:
According to FBI research by National Institute for Justice on gun violence, presented August 23, 2016, a shotgun possessed by women is strongly effective in preventing domestic violence and death.
Women need their guns to protect their families from homicidal estranged partners.
Updated:
I'm away and have no access to the printed report for a while. The report is published and public but uncirculated. PM to request the link.
I also corrected the date for the presentation.
Among women gun owners, 56% believe gun ownership is necessary for self-defense while 20% of women without guns believe it is necessary.

There is a growing trend among men to stop owning guns.
 
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njord

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According to FBI research on gun violence, August 4 2017, a loaded shotgun possessed by single mothers is strongly effective in preventing domestic violence and death.
Women need their guns to protect their fam
Lol i would like to see that research. Preventing domestic violence with guns?! Sounds like a terrible idea to me.
Those women need to be helped guns will only make matters worse.
 

Bertram

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Here's a useful d-mn fact the news media leaves out:
For all the mass shootings carried out which make the news, state by state in the US there are THOUSANDS of mass shooter threats prevented by law enforcement agencies every MONTH.

That's right, folks, we're actually living under the threat of hundreds of thousands of mass shootings in the US annually. Almost all are squashed in advance of the event by vigilant intervention.

Another fact:
The average violent criminal with intent to kill uses a gun 70 hrs a month.
The average target practice hours for US cops is 5-8 hours a month.

Keep your guns, upgrade your concealed carry but keep in practice too. The shooter practices with his weapon 70 hours a month.

Which is the more responsible choice, getting fake news or getting target practice?
 
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Bertram

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Lol i would like to see that research. Preventing domestic violence with guns?! Sounds like a terrible idea to me.
Those women need to be helped guns will only make matters worse.
A research conference on deterrents to gun violence was held by invitation at the FBI headquarters in D.C. in August 2016. Hope your Google skills are adequate. Have a ball.
[edited 8/6/19: I'd post the throw a PDF of the report up here but I've been away on unexpected business and can't access it. PM for the report.]
Research on women firearm owners and the deterents to domestic violence was conducted over three years by UPenn by academics and Police Scholars, designated law enforcement officers who take on academic research.
This area of study addressed domestic homicide. The victims who were the focus of the study are women and children who are murdered following separation and/or divorce. The women defended themselves and tneir children with shotguns.
Weapons besides shotguns, or no weapon, were factors in the women and their children being killed.

Part of the discussion focused on how media would not pick up this thread thanks to ideology, including a sexist bias, like yours.

Conclusions were that possession and use of firearms, specifically a shotgun, reduces domestic homicide rates, especially of women and children. This conclusion mean that homicidal estranged partners will go away and stay away depending on the ex's firearm.

Another study BTW demonstrated that illegal gun sales by only a handful of sellers on the streets in Chicago ad L.A. is the reason for high murder rates in active gang neighborhoods.

You will instantly respect the second study more readily than the first, Nord, and here's why: you value the lives of men more than women, even caring more about teen criminal gang members over female heads-of-household who defend their families.
 
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SEBASTlAN

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G-Man

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Nowhere in that article is your claim that "500,000+ lives are saved by guns every year" substantiated.

In fact, if you keep reading, it says the data may point to just the opposite.

Look, I'm not saying you're right or wrong (I haven't seen the data)... I'm just pointing out that if you have to lie, exaggerate or cherry-pick data to support your stance, you probably don't have a very good argument.

Again, I'm not taking sides on this argument...just trying to keep people honest and encourage them to provide support for their statements...
I've looked and there really isn't any evidence that I can tell. Harvard says self defense guns are used in about 1% of crimes where victim has contact with perpetrator.


There's a couple of weaknesses to the analysis, namely that often when crime is prevented, nothing is reported to police. That said, it seems unlikely that this weakness will turn 1% into 10%.

There's the deterrent argument, but that's going to be impossible to quantify, i.e, how many people would be burglars if they weren't afraid of getting shot by the gun owner in the house.

All the country by country comparisons are fundamentally effed, because you can't use one country as an analog for another, and crime is pretty difficult to understand, even in the context of a single country/culture/legal system. But, nobody teaches you how to tell what data does and doesn't say in school, so we'll keep being subjected to Facebook posts drawing a straight line between gun ownership rates and crime rates in the US versus Norway, or US versus Venezuela until the end of time.

In my opinion, it comes to subjective value judgments we make based on what we believe best serves our own personal interests, and what we think our own personal risks/rewards are. It's made even more complicated by the fact that we can't even accurately measure our own personal risk profile in stuff like this. It's more an intuitive guess. i.e., I have several guns in my home. If a series of events went sideways, like I forgot to lock the gun cabinet AND forgot to install the trigger lock, my 3 year old could shoot himself. I estimate that the risk less than the net benefit of having a gun in the house to protect the family plus the enjoyment I get from the gun.

Do I have any data to support this? No. Even If I use data from national statistics, it's not super relevant, because every situation is different. I'm operating on sheer old fashioned, unreliable intuition.

Mostly, we make these selfish value judgments, then compose arguments around them after the fact. We includes me. I'll 100% admit to it. We do this for two main reasons that I can tell:
  • We don't like to think of ourselves as irrational and don't want others to think of us that way
  • We don't like to think we put our own self-interest ahead of the safety and lives of others, and don't want others to see us that way.
Again, that's why I don't like this debate, even though I clearly have some impulsive need to engage in it.
 
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D

Deleted50669

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I attended this law enforcement research conference on deterrents to gun violence, which was held by invitation at the FBI headquarters in D.C. in early August 2015. Hope your Google skills are adequate. Have a ball.

This is also a problem. Grown-a$$ adults being passive-aggressive about serious topics.
 

Bertram

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This is also a problem. Grown-a$$ adults being passive-aggressive about serious topics.

I regret that I responded to the commenter's dismissive "lol" at the idea that some poor women have to arm themselves and fight for their lives when they leave violent partners, which itself is a very hard thing to do. The "lol" indicates commenter was not genuinely interested.

It looks like a !ot of interest is raised, so I'm happy to provide the info, and soon..
 
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ChrisV

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40,000 gun deaths last year in u.s.

40,000 deaths a year in the u.s. from cars.


One gets lots of media attention. The other no one is talking about.
Oh that's typical. The same way people worried about Terrorism where statistically the odds of being crushed to death by furniture were higher.

67439989_10220824432389324_156546713216090112_n.jpg

(Don't know how exact those figures are, but NDT is usually pretty reliable)
 
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Bertram

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##########

MODERATOR NOTE:
These posts were extracted from the RANDOM CHAT thread. While this is a sensitive topic that has political overtones, I hope the forum can amicably discuss it in a civilized manner. If not, the thread will be closed.

###########


Almost 30 people dead in 2 more mass shootings...250 shootings this year? At what point do we realize that what's happening isn't normal. At what point do we stop justifying these events with bullshit.

The last one being in Texas...where a thread a couple months ago asked which place was safer Texas or Canada. Clearly it can happen anywhere in any state at any place. It doesn't matter. No place is safe at this point.

I can't even feel comfortable going to the mall, Walmart, movies, downtown, school, church or any other public place without having to worry some a**hole with a gun is going to shoot at my family. Is this really the way it's supposed to be? Smh.

How do we stop mass shootings?

These days mass shooters are commonly viewed as victims of wrongful drug management or bad parenting, or are labeled monsters who are were already born broken.

The ingredients for a mass shooting are: mood imbalance + (autism + bipolar disorder + male biology) + (bipolar mother + addiction) + social rejection and alienation.

Mood. Alienation. Social rejection.
The everyday, chance interaction with a warm stranger, a simple "Hey, how's your day," surely can diffuse a moment of extreme anguish.
So I think we can all learn to look around in our communities and spot someone in distress, and chance that small conversational exchange.
It 's probably worth a try to make it a common practice.
 
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ZZZ

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This is also kinda my point, the gun industry is a self fulfilling industry; 1 person buys a gun and shoots someone with it now everyone in the neighbourhood wants one just to "protect" them selfs en so on till everyone has a gun.

If you turn it around noone has a gun, noone is threated and no one needs guns anymore.

Solution ban/restrict guns just like the rest of the western world
Even if guns simply didn't exist in the world or the U.S.A., determined crazies would still find a way to murder people. Whether that be with bombs, cars, knifes, fires, banning guns is not a solution to the problem. It would make gun murders drop, but other means would rise.
 

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We can use this same argument to justify that we shouldn't be trying to rid the country of heroin and crack cocaine...

Again, not stating a position on the debate, just having fun pointing out the logical fallacies... :)

We shouldn't, & the war on drugs is a massive failure. The problem with crack and heroin and fentanyl probably starts most of the time with doctors over prescribing. Just like the problem with guns is mental illness not the guns themselves. Logical fallacy how? Both cases people will simply find alternatives unless the deeper root problem is resolved.
 

ChrisV

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We can use this same argument to justify that we shouldn't be trying to rid the country of heroin and crack cocaine...

Again, not stating a position on the debate, just having fun pointing out the logical fallacies... :)
I personally don't know we should be trying to rid the country of crack or heroin. Not directly at least. Why?

Portugal was in the midst of a drug epidemic in around 2000. After countless crackdowns they got a bunch of researchers and doctors together and asked them to come up with a plan to fix the issue. Their plan? Legalize all drugs* (from crack to meth to heroin) and put all the money they spent on the 'war of drugs' into treatment (the second part is very important)

The result?

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* The drug policy of Portugal was put in place in 2001, and was legally effective from July 2001. The new law maintained the status of illegality for using or possessing any drug for personal use without authorization. However, the offense was changed from a criminal one, with prison a possible punishment, to an administrative one if the amount possessed was no more than a ten-day supply of that substance.
 

TonyStark

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40,000 gun deaths last year in u.s.

40,000 deaths a year in the u.s. from cars.


One gets lots of media attention. The other no one is talking about.
That’s because cars aren’t meant for murdering people.

And people aren’t purposefully trying to kill each other with cars.
 
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TonyStark

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I hate when we describe and sort of killer as having a “mental illness” because it takes away responsibility from the killer and makes him a victim of his “mental illness”.

Mental illness isn’t the problem in America, it’s that these damn people committing murders are idiots, and have no real sense of purpose in life.

They’re low-life scum bags. That’s it.
 

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That’s because cars aren’t meant for murdering people.

And people aren’t purposefully trying to kill each other with cars.
Some do.

And that wasn’t the point of the post he’s quoting. The point is that driving cars are an example of the fact that people are willing to sacrifice the lives of others if it increases their quality of life. Some people. Maybe just me. I’m sure you don’t drive.
 

Real Deal Denver

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Oh that's typical. The same way people worried about Terrorism where statistically the odds of being crushed to death by furniture were higher.

View attachment 26380

(Don't know how exact those figures are, but NDT is usually pretty reliable)

Neil deGrasse Tyson apologized this morning following a tweet Sunday deemed “insensitive” about the weekend mass shootings in El Paso and Dayton that sparked a fierce reaction on social media, but not everyone is accepting his apology...

Tyson’s apology sparked nearly as much criticism as the initial tweet.

“I find it incredulous that an intellectual such as Neil deGrasse Tyson would be so unwittingly tone deaf at a time like this,” wrote a Facebook commenter named Andrew Smith. “Which makes his attempt at an apology rather disingenuous.”

Another Facebook user, Kellie Gerardi, commented below Tyson’s new post: “The depth of your reflection in this note is offensively shallow. You used data to draw a false equivalence with unfathomably hurtful timing, and your arrogance has you doubling down with ‘true but unhelpful’. Why even bother with a note?”

Tens of thousands Twitter users came out with a strong response to Tyson’s tweets on Sunday.

“Cold take, Neil. 200+ Americans died from gun violence in the past 48 hours,” author and gun control activist Shannon Watts responded.


On the other side...

Finally, to borrow a phrase from the Editorial Board, we have been hit by a series of terror attacks. But terrorists — whether they’re a “lone wolf” or organized — don’t care about our gun laws, any more than the terrorists who ignored France’s draconian gun control laws in 2015 and used fully automatic firearms to murder 90 people at the Bataclan theater.

No, if terrorists were to strike into our malls and neighborhoods, we should hope and pray there will be people like Stephen Willeford — a retired plumber who used his AR-15-style rifle to mortally wound a de facto terrorist in Texas two years ago.


And now for the moment that changed my life. WARNING - What you about to read in the remainder of this post is deeply disturbing. It greatly affected me when I read it years ago, and is still in the back of my mind today. IF you do not want to know how evil and gory these sick bastards can be - in gruesome detail - do NOT continue to read this post.

Bataclan theatre massacre

The French Parliamentary report contains details of how victims' bodies had been mutilated, such as by eye-gouging, disemboweling, castration, and beheading; however, some French law enforcement officials have insisted that the injuries were caused only by gunfire and shrapnel.


Bullshit.

I read, but cannot find online now, of how men were castrated alive and forced to EAT their testicles. Women were STABBED with knives UP their vaginas and bled to death.

Those details are, understandably, repressed. Unspeakable evil.

After I read that I immediately went out and bought two pistols and a good supply of hollow-point bullets. One for me and one for my wife. That news report hardened my view on protecting myself and my family - right then and there.

From now on...

26398
26397

26399
 
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TonyStark

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Some do.

And that wasn’t the point of the post he’s quoting. The point is that driving cars are an example of the fact that people are willing to sacrifice the lives of others if it increases their quality of life. Some people. Maybe just me. I’m sure you don’t drive.
Do you just live your life hoping to get into petulant little arguments with people on the internet?
 

G-Man

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Do you just live your life hoping to get into petulant little arguments with people on the internet?
Sure. Nothing introspective about it.
 
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