Pity for Society

[SteveO]

I hope this does not come across as political or lead to any related discussion.

But....

Did anyone else feel sorrow watching video and seeing pictures of the masses running away from the recent attacks? Just a few people with knives. Are we happy to have saved our own asses while the weaker and slower get slaughtered?

My take on history always led me to believe that warriors don't run away.

There were a number of stories of brave souls that fought back. But, they were few.

How many men were there in the area? Could this have been thwarted much quicker? Should it have been?

All the fear will embolden others.

 

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[jon.a]

yup

 

[MetalGear]

There were people that did fight back, wish there were more in numbers and that they were able to stop them more quickly. :/

Londoners fight back with glass bottles, doors
London terror attack hero reveals one thing we can all do to 'make a difference'

 

[AndrewNC]

My take on history always lead me to believe that warriors don't run away.

Not everybody is a warrior.

There are times in Our society where warriors are needed to keep us Alive.

Then there are times where intellectuals who don't fight are needed to keep society alive.

Should Elon musk have ran toward the attacks to save the few? Or get us to mars and perhaps save millions in the event of an asteroid strike wiping out esrth?

 

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[jon.a]

Not everybody is a warrior.

There are times in Our society where warriors are needed to keep us Alive.

Then there are times where intellectuals who don't fight are needed to keep society alive.

Should Elon musk have ran toward the attacks to save the few? Or get us to mars and perhaps save millions in the event of an asteroid strike wiping out esrth?

I would expect Elon Musk to have armed bodyguards.

 

[SteveO]

Should Elon musk have ran toward the attacks to save the few? Or get us to mars and perhaps save millions in the event of an asteroid strike wiping out esrth?

The gist was missed...

 

[V8Bill]

One of the two Australian ladies who were killed died because she was a warrior nurse who who ran in to help and paid the ultimate price.

Professionals are trained to help in high stress situations but it's hard to know how I'd react in a surprisingly violent and sudden situation. I'd like to think I'd switch to help mode asap but who knows?

P.S. Nurses rock!

 

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[SteveO]

Not everybody is a warrior.

The attackers were counting on the fact that there would not be very many. This was my point. Society needs to toughen up!

I am not claiming to be smart, brave, or a warrior. But I do have many instances of standing up for people while risking bodily injury. So, I just don't see how they did not get swarmed.

Many years ago my 4 y/o son, 12 year old daughter, and a woman I was dating were in a restaurant. Two big guys were harassing a young couple. As the couple were leaving, these guys went after them and began fighting. Without thinking, I jumped from my seat and ran across the building grabbing the guy doing most of the swinging. He was much bigger than me. I latched my arms around him and shouted "Make another move and I will beat your a$$". He immediately stopped. Another restaurant patron got in front of the other guy. More people were moving in.

Of course they did not have weapons. But these guys were a couple of badass, boozed up construction workers.

I doubt that any of us had to think about moving into the action...

 

[SteveO]

One of the two Australian ladies who were killed died because she was a warrior nurse who who ran in to help and paid the ultimate price.

Yep. Too bad she did not have help...

 

[samuraijack]

Agreed but instead of more warriors (random individuals running in to help), we need more leaders. Just one man stepping up and commanding those around him on what to do, working together.

 

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[CycleGuy]

Anymore it seems very few people have the "fight" reaction in our Fight or Flight response.

I quietly and discreetly conceal carry every single day. I hope I never, ever have to use it.
I don't want anyone to know I even have it because one of my biggest advantages in an emergency would be my ability to blend in.
If anyone on here doesn't carry I would also recommend training some martial arts as well as strength training.
Any type of self defense training could potentially save a life, your life, or several lives.


If anyone has questions on concealed carry weapon choices, martial arts styles, or strength training, please feel free to PM me.
I understand it can be an touchy topic or even intimidating for anyone who has never been around self defense.

 

[ZF Lee]

I hope this does not come across as political or lead to any related discussion.

But....

Did anyone else feel sorrow watching video and seeing pictures of the masses running away from the recent attacks? Just a few people with knives. Are we happy to have saved our own asses while the weaker and slower get slaughtered?

My take on history always led me to believe that warriors don't run away.

There were a number of stories of brave souls that fought back. But, they were few.

How many men were there in the area? Could this have been thwarted much quicker? Should it have been?

All the fear will embolden others.

Psychology time.
I rip on academics, but there was an interesting thing I learned in Psychology.
In 1964, a girl named Kitty Genovese was murdered in New York by a man with a knife. According to police investigations, the local residents heard her cries for help but they failed to get help until it was too late. When it was further investigated by Latane and John Darley, they came up with the bystander effect, which is the tendency for hesitance to help to increase when there are more bystanders around.

Suppose you see an accident and you are in a large crowd You are busy shopping and you are rushing to get things done, so you think 'never mind, someone else can help.' You might have some guilt pangs, but there are so many people around, surely someone else more skilled can help the victim? You hope that someone else will do the job, as in most cases if you help, there is no reward or even worse, 'punishment' in the form of injury and even public disapproval. This is cost analysis, the role of reinforcements.

The helpers are few because they choose not to follow the crowd, and their choices made them the outliers, something that science cannot document or measure well enough to replicate, because again, there are too few to sample. Theoretically if there were more people, the situation would have been diffused very quickly, but as I have said, the bystander effect will start working when there is a large crowd and will reduce crowd efficiency in offering assistance.

Now to think of it, I think this is a very crucial mental working in the SCRIPT framework, to keep everyone inactive and mediocre in the happy little lives. When everyone lives in the same conventional thinking and lifestyle, they decide not to go for the big goals or wealth as 'someone else will do it, there's a lot of people around me' or 'not me, I'm less skillful and I might lose'. But yup, as those heroes have shown, you can beat conventional mediocre science and statistics just by simply choosing to act.

 

[Dunkafelics]

It is a really tough call to know how one would react in such a situation. The bystander effect is very real and there are too many people that would rather videotape an incident unfolding rather than help out.

I think there would be a lot of shock involved at first in seeing a van drive right into a group of people, and then witnessing people being stabbed afterwards.

There is so much that could be discussed on this particular topic and if you ever want to discuss it more feel free to PM me.

 

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[loop101]

Here is a warrior for you: Football fan fought London terror attackers with his fists shouting 'f**k you, I'm Millwall'

 

[V8Bill]

Let's be careful not to derail this into a political thread and have it locked up. I like the focus of "what would/should/could you/we do?".

 

[luniac]

maybe if it was legal to even carry a F*ckin pocket knife in NYC....

disarm the citizens and only the criminals will be armed...

 

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[loop101]

Let's be careful not to derail this into a political thread and have it locked up. I like the focus of "what would/should/could you/we do?".

That is like if a house burned down, you want to discuss how the fire could have been better extinguished, but not discuss what caused the fire. That is an awkward constraint.

 

[V8Bill]

No, it's not. It's an acknowledgement of the rules of this place. I'd love to discuss politics and religion but this isn't the place.

 

[theag]

maybe if it was legal to even carry a F*ckin pocket knife in NYC....

disarm the citizens and only the criminals will be armed...

This.

 

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[Sfbloo]

I'm from Manchester so the recent events have been in the forefront of my mind the last month. We are adapting to a new enemy. One that is underhand and weak. They don't stand there and fight on an even level, they are pathetic.

The attack on London they surprise targeted people out with loved ones, probably with a few to many beers in them. By the time people realised what was going on panic would have set in.

By all accounts many of those poor people that dies were mowed down or attacked in an instant whilst sat enjoying a meal/ drink.

There are stories of people fighting back, making their bars and restaurants safe, and many many people helping the injured. As a nation we rally round and help when these sick attacks happen. It can embolden all they want, they will achieve nothing. We've always had terrorist threats here (IRA) It brings people closer.

I find this thread a little odd. How many men were in the area... just a few knives....i think your down playing how terrifying that would be at the time.

They wore fake bombs to ensue panic. Have you seen the video when the cops take them down? Just before one lad runs past and they are instantly on him plunging knives into him and this is after their initial adrenalin (possibly drugs to) has wore off.

The footage you see is generally post event footage with police evacuating areas. It isn't real time showing exactly what unfolded and who the "warriors"are.

Now if there was time and thought to rally round, compose and attack back but it's not as clear cut as that.

I have two young children. I would like to think I would help in any way I could but equally I would be ensuring my children are safe.

The day after the Manchester bombing I signed up for a first aid course. I don't want to be the one that doesn't know how to react but I do think your over simplifying - we are all different.

 

[Contrarian]

I was in London Bridge that night having a couple of beers. Figured we should see the Shard at some point before we emigrate! (Turns out the Shard is very cool.)

Left the area literally about half an hour before everything kicked off. Sitting in another pub down the road in Victoria wondering what the sirens whizzing by were all about.

My first thought was "WTF". My second thought was that if carrying guns were legal here, it would never have happened.

Of course, such forbidden thoughts round these parts are as heretical as being an abolitionist in Ancient Rome.

 

[Sfbloo]

I was in London Bridge that night having a couple of beers. Figured we should see the Shard at some point before we emigrate! (Turns out the Shard is very cool.)

Left the area literally about half an hour before everything kicked off. Sitting in another pub down the road in Victoria wondering what the sirens whizzing by were all about.

My first thought was "WTF". My second thought was that if carrying guns were legal here, it would never have happened.

Of course, such forbidden thoughts round these parts are as heretical as being an abolitionist in Ancient Rome.

That's an entirely different debate. Me, I'm glad guns aren't legal here. It would only lead to more murder and deaths - IMO.

They wouldn't have jumped out of the van with knives. They would have been armed to the teeth with freely available guns.

 

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[Contrarian]

That's an entirely different debate.

Indeed it is.

I just can't understand the mindset of anyone who would do something so evil.

I have no idea how I would have reacted if I'd been there at the time. I like to think I would have fought back, but who knows?

And then, there are the countless times similar scenes have played and which will continue to play out all over the world, but which we never hear about.

Trying to make sense of the violence in this world will drive you mad if you think about it too much.

 

[Sfbloo]

Indeed it is.

I just can't understand the mindset of anyone who would do something so evil.

I have no idea how I would have reacted if I'd been there at the time. I like to think I would have fought back, but who knows?

And then, there are the countless times similar scenes have played and which will continue to play out all over the world, but which we never hear about.

Trying to make sense of the violence in this world will drive you mad if you think about it too much.

Fully agreed. I can't comprehend why. But then there's many things I can't comprehend that are sick and twisted which aren't terrorism. Some people are just wired wrong from nature or nurture. These people are just another flavour of that, hiding behind a fake ideology.

The Manchester one hit home for me. I've been to that venue so many times for music and comedy gigs. A few of the victims were local to me and when I see the youngest girl I just see my own daughter's . There's no justification or way I can understand it.

Prevention and understanding is key. Short term and long term. Each generation grows up with more awareness, understanding of the different cultures around them.

The fact we can't comprehend it shows you've been brought up with decent values. Good to hear you wasn't involved. Things like this spur us on with our aims and embrace everything and everyone we have that little bit tighter.

 

[Aardvark]

Another UK Member here, just outside of Manchester.

I have slightly different views, I believe that because we have become so tied by Political Correctness that we are trying to shut the door after the horse has bolted so to speak. Again without getting into politics here, especially after the last few weeks of campaigning I do feel that we are right on the edge of oblivion.

The Police have been so limited in what they can do without fear of upsetting anyone that they have been unable to perform their duties. What exists now is a massive, and I mean massive undercurrent of anti-west views, opinions and beliefs and we are too late to do anything. It's like trying to treat someone with pneumonia with cough syrup. They have been allowed to peddle their belief that we are inferior, demonic people who belong to die and go to hell for too long and now it is so rooted within their groups that we have no chance to deal with it.

By all accounts there are approximate 35000 people who have links to terrorist activities, influence or places of interest. 10% of these are being actively monitored whatever that means which suggests that they are dangerous, even if 1% of the overall amount of 35000 people of interest are highly dangerous that leaves 350 potential terrorists. 350 people isn't difficult to deal with, but the police cannot do anything until they break the law or have evidence, even if they know they are plotting something they can't touch them.

Look at the Rotherham Grooming Gang, the authorities knew about it. They actually knew about it but they couldn't do anything because of the PC world that we live in in the UK.

Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal - Wikipedia

We used to be taught to fight back, to stand up for what we believe in and to be proud of who we are. Now we are taught that if someone hits you you run and tell a teacher, you don't defend yourself. If you beliefs do not align with the most vocal of the population e.g. recently that Jeremy Corbyn is the messiah then you are racist or xenophobic. Unfortunately in the UK we are being brainwashed.

For more examples you can just look at any UK paper. E.G. one of the politicians over here (Dianne Abbott) completely fluffed up figures on numerous interviews, she got called out about it and labelled as inept. Do you know what the response was? They were racist and chauvinistic. Look, I don't care if someone is white or black, if they are male or female, if they are gay or straight, I really don't give a rats a$$. What I do care about is that they are capable of their job.

Sorry this has turned into a bit of a ramble, just getting things off my chest.

In short, people didn't fight back because we've been taught all our lives that if we stand out from the crowd in one way or another than we are in the wrong.

 

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[Sfbloo]

Another UK Member here, just outside of Manchester.

I have slightly different views, I believe that because we have become so tied by Political Correctness that we are trying to shut the door after the horse has bolted so to speak. Again without getting into politics here, especially after the last few weeks of campaigning I do feel that we are right on the edge of oblivion.

The Police have been so limited in what they can do without fear of upsetting anyone that they have been unable to perform their duties. What exists now is a massive, and I mean massive undercurrent of anti-west views, opinions and beliefs and we are too late to do anything. It's like trying to treat someone with pneumonia with cough syrup. They have been allowed to peddle their belief that we are inferior, demonic people who belong to die and go to hell for too long and now it is so rooted within their groups that we have no chance to deal with it.

By all accounts there are approximate 35000 people who have links to terrorist activities, influence or places of interest. 10% of these are being actively monitored whatever that means which suggests that they are dangerous, even if 1% of the overall amount of 35000 people of interest are highly dangerous that leaves 350 potential terrorists. 350 people isn't difficult to deal with, but the police cannot do anything until they break the law or have evidence, even if they know they are plotting something they can't touch them.

Look at the Rotherham Grooming Gang, the authorities knew about it. They actually knew about it but they couldn't do anything because of the PC world that we live in in the UK.

Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal - Wikipedia

We used to be taught to fight back, to stand up for what we believe in and to be proud of who we are. Now we are taught that if someone hits you you run and tell a teacher, you don't defend yourself. If you beliefs do not align with the most vocal of the population e.g. recently that Jeremy Corbyn is the messiah then you are racist or xenophobic. Unfortunately in the UK we are being brainwashed.

For more examples you can just look at any UK paper. E.G. one of the politicians over here (Dianne Abbott) completely fluffed up figures on numerous interviews, she got called out about it and labelled as inept. Do you know what the response was? They were racist and chauvinistic. Look, I don't care if someone is white or black, if they are male or female, if they are gay or straight, I really don't give a rats a$$. What I do care about is that they are capable of their job.

Sorry this has turned into a bit of a ramble, just getting things off my chest.

In short, people didn't fight back because we've been taught all our lives that if we stand out from the crowd in one way or another than we are in the wrong.

I agree and can understand a lot of what you say.

I finished watching "Three girls" the night of the Manchester bombing so was already in a dark place. That isn't purely political correctness it's also massive failings of authority's for just not giving a crap. In the same way Hillsborough, operation yewtree and countless other enquiries have shown. It would be nice to believe this doesnt go on anymore but doubtful.

I agree. We know the numbers of potentials. Now their needs to be effort and investment into stamping them out and disbanding those communities. We know who they are so do it. Cutting police forces isn't the answer! Has to be done In the right way though where we don't alienate those who don't share the beliefs.

Have faith in the young to. When I look around I see teenagers who more than stand out from the crowd. My kids will be brought up to be strong, opinionated and know right from wrong.

 

[Aardvark]

I agree and can understand a lot of what you say.
Have faith in the young to. When I look around I see teenagers who more than stand out from the crowd. My kids will be brought up to be strong, opinionated and know right from wrong.

I feel the same, I'm bringing my two up to understand that it is their choice how their life turns out, its their responsibilities to make something of themselves, if they want something they have to go and get.

My worry is that I look around and I see so many my age or younger (I'm 30) who believe the world owes them a living and they deserve to be rich, drive that Ferrari they see, order bottles of Grey Goose on nights and that somehow someone somewhere will give it them. Talking briefly about the election just gone I think so many young people voted because they heard "FREE UNIVERSITY", "WIPE OFF YOUR STUDENT DEBT", "FIGHT AGAINST BREXIT".

 

[SteveO]

I have two young children. I would like to think I would help in any way I could but equally I would be ensuring my children are safe.

No doubt about that! Job number one.

There is no doubt that people were going to be caught off guard. You cannot defend against the vehicle.

My curiosity around this is whether this is a sign of our current society or not. Were reactions different in past times?

 

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[Sfbloo]

No doubt about that! Job number one.

There is no doubt that people were going to be caught off guard. You cannot defend against the vehicle.

My curiosity around this is whether this is a sign of our current society or not. Were reactions different in past times?

Possibly. That may be experience though. My parents are tougher but there parents served during the war. Different times different experiences.

I think in Britain inherently we help we fight. We accept and we are strong. Many places in Europe don't like us as the perception is those brits are dicks

Those images of people being evacuated. The most British photo was the lad running with his pint in his hand. He's just paid 6 quid for a beer at London prices. He wasn't wasting it.

This always springs to mind. 10 year ago. The lad tore a tendon kicking his balls that hard

Bomb hero describes testicle kick

 

[MidwestLandlord]

There is no doubt that people were going to be caught off guard. You cannot defend against the vehicle.

My curiosity around this is whether this is a sign of our current society or not. Were reactions different in past times?

A while back I drove into a gas station in Cheyenne Wyoming. You can't really see into the lot before you pull in.

I pulled in and there was 3 police cars, 4 cops, and a car pulled over by one of the pumps. The 4 cops were standing behind their cars with their guns aimed at the driver of the car, who was in his car yelling at the cops.

There was a large group of people standing around watching and recording with their cellphones. There were kids in the crowd too.

Do these people think the world is a padded room where they can't get hurt? Do they not realize the risk of catching a stray bullet if this guy gets stupid and the cops start shooting?

I couldn't get back to the street easily, so I hopped a curb and drove through the station's landscaping onto a side road.

I can't imagine the human race has survived this long being that stupid. But maybe it's always been that way? I don't know.

Apparently we live in a world where people would rather record their fellow human's suffering for youtube than to help or even get themselves out of harm's way.