Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

[ApeRunner]

Just learn a little, if you fall in love with code do it.

If not, don't.

 

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[Austin Shelton]

From simple analysis I would infer that learning the basics of a markup language like html and css would be beneficial even necessary in order to start a tech business. Html simple web dev isn't considered a coding language, coding takes much more time to learn and wouldn't benefit you for the next few years at least. Copy will be useful for any business endeavor and should be perceived as much.

 

[Eshastra]

I completely agree with your point. But to add one that one should be atleast technology savvy and have some idea of what coding languages are used.

 

[Kevin Peter]

Marketing and Sales is the most interesting stream. Learn more, talk more and yes, earn more!

 

[Jambla]

In my opinion do only the necessary for you business, I would say not to bother with learning for the sake of it. If you have a project, learn enough to code that, it will certainty motivate when youre working on something important to you.

 

[ClaytonAlbright]

I asked a similar question a while back and have had a while to think about this (although a different skill set) since I'm in the same position (and have had some experience going through this currently).

Ultimately I decided to pay for a freelancer(s) but I can afford one while also learning on my own. If you mop floors at McDonalds or push carts at Wal-Mart and find a freelancer willing to program for what you can budget I would stay far away from that programmer. I highly disagree with the statement "there are plenty of cheap programmers" -- for who? Maybe someone who already makes a decent income but there are plenty of people here who are barely paying the bills as it is.

Sure if you can afford a good programmer then go ahead (not to be confused with cheap programmers because your probably wasting your money and time). If you start learning and enjoy it keep learning.

If you "managed programmers" then obviously already made decent money so its easy to say -- oh let me just go throw some money at a programmer!

Ultimately the only thing that matters at all in this whole debate are the results not how you get there. That's it. If you can get the results you want quicker and can afford a good programmer then that makes more sense. If you like programming and don't have money to throw at the problem then learn programming. If you hate it then find something to make more money to hire one or trudge through it and learn it anyway if you can't afford one.

It's all dependent on the specific persons situation.

 

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[ClaytonAlbright]

I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!

Spend that time learning to market and write sales copy. Spending 1000 hours to learn to code to spend 200 hours writing an app is STUPID.

Spend the 1000 hours learning to market and write copy, and you can use that skill for the life of the app, plus the life of the next app, and other peoples apps AND it makes you money. Writing code just means you have something, but it won't sell itself.

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
1000 hours learning to code.
200 hours writing an app.
wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
sell some of your app
spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.


Learn to market and write copy:
1000 hours learning to market and write code, while that 1000 hours is going on, pay someone that has 10,000 hours of training on apps to write your app.
Start marketing your app immediately.
Sell lots of your app.
Pass any support issues to the developer
Sell lots more of your app.
Create 3 more apps and market the hell out of them
Go to the bank often to deposit checks.

Do you SEE the difference????

Just as an FYI I've been through the whole "Just hire someone" bullshit you've given advice for and from MY experience it's complete BULLSHIT.


I've been through so many subcontractors on FIVERR and UPWORK and ELANCE I could shit them out of my eyeballs and paid them so much money I could have founded my own google.

Your advise is shit. These subcontractors just care about making a bit of money on the side. Now, there might be some that are good, and you can find them from word of mouth, but just highering them off the bat they don't give a shit about you. They will take your money and run.

/end rant

 

[hellolin]

Just as an FYI I've been through the whole "Just hire someone" bullshit you've given advice for and from MY experience it's complete BULLSHIT.


I've been through so many subcontractors on FIVERR and UPWORK and ELANCE I could shit them out of my eyeballs and paid them so much money I could have founded my own google.

Your advise is shit. These subcontractors just care about making a bit of money on the side. Now, there might be some that are good, and you can find them from word of mouth, but just highering them off the bat they don't give a shit about you. They will take your money and run.

/end rant

I am learning programming right now and some in college, and you are right, programming is not easy and there are certainly good ones and bad ones, bad ones by a large mile are the majority, because programming is not easy, this is why a good software eng. can command more than 200k+ year as a salary man, there is a reason for that. To just be that good you actually have to go though the learning process, which takes years. The really really good ones are the ones who jumps out of the industry and build their own start ups, with the help of their friends in the business department. So I think as the fastlaners here it is smart to at least try to learn program yourself, and get expert help from the side.

 

[GrensonMan]

From my point of view, I think it would benefit almost anyone to learn at least some small amount of coding. At a minimum, learn CSS, HTML, and some Javascript. If you don't know these languages and are just getting things off the ground you will waste crucial time going back and forth with a web designer when you could knock it out yourself, not to mention the cost savings.

 

[healthstatus]

I've been through so many subcontractors on FIVERR and UPWORK and ELANCE I could shit them out of my eyeballs and paid them so much money I could have founded my own google.

And the common factor in those transactions is YOU. If you have joined the insiders you can listen to my podcast on how to hire good workers off Elance so you don't get screwed. I almost always have 3-4 active outsourcing projects going and have for the last 8-9 years and have built a really good business on it.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Just as an FYI I've been through the whole "Just hire someone" bullshit you've given advice for and from MY experience it's complete BULLSHIT.


I've been through so many subcontractors on FIVERR and UPWORK and ELANCE I could shit them out of my eyeballs and paid them so much money I could have founded my own google.

Your advise is shit. These subcontractors just care about making a bit of money on the side. Now, there might be some that are good, and you can find them from word of mouth, but just highering them off the bat they don't give a shit about you. They will take your money and run.

/end rant

I guess this is why gurus who sell "how to make millions online" append the disclaimer "Your results may vary..." to the end of their pitch.

 

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[Digamma]

The really really good ones are the ones who jumps out of the industry and build their own start ups, with the help of their friends in the business department.

Now, this is absolutely not true. Being a really good programmer takes 48 hours a day, and the best ones in my experience want to work on cool problems at work and on their own stuff on the side without any schlep.
Top engineers don't found startups - they get hired by startups.

Just as an FYI I've been through the whole "Just hire someone" bullshit you've given advice for and from MY experience it's complete BULLSHIT.


I've been through so many subcontractors on FIVERR and UPWORK and ELANCE I could shit them out of my eyeballs and paid them so much money I could have founded my own google.

Your advise is shit. These subcontractors just care about making a bit of money on the side. Now, there might be some that are good, and you can find them from word of mouth, but just highering them off the bat they don't give a shit about you. They will take your money and run.

/end rant

So you can't make it work for you, but it's not your fault, it's the whole world who's lying to you. Maybe your attitude could have something to do with it?

 

[samdee]

Yeàh that's true.... Outsource the coding to someone with experience, someone who can assure you of a quality app. All you'd need to do is to market the application and seek for critical feedback especially from friends and usèrs of the app.

Sent from my H7 using Tapatalk

 

[Roli]

I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
1000 hours learning to code.
200 hours writing an app.
wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
sell some of your app
spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.

Do you SEE the difference????

Or like MJ DeMarco the owner of this forum that 1200 hours is the seed to making 100s of millions. Don't judge everyone by your standards, just because you didn't make it in 20 years doesn't mean that no one else will.

Here's another way it could go

Have an idea(s) for app
1000 hours learning to code
200 hours coding app
pay developers a hell of a lot less money than you would have had you not known shit, to tweak and/or finish your app
Sell some of your app
pay developers to fix bug issues
200 hours coding new app
repeat process
Build capital until you are just concepting and other people are doing the developing.

Voila!

 

[healthstatus]

Don't judge everyone by your standards, just because you didn't make it in 20 years doesn't mean that no one else will.

Sorry dude, made it, and made it, and made it, and still making more of it.

Here's another way it could go

Have an idea(s) for app
1000 hours learning to code
200 hours coding app
pay developers a hell of a lot less money than you would have had you not known shit, to tweak and/or finish your app
Sell some of your app
pay developers to fix bug issues
200 hours coding new app
repeat process

And exactly how many times have you executed this strategy successfully?

 

[Roli]

Sorry dude, made it, and made it, and made it, and still making more of it.



And exactly how many times have you executed this strategy successfully?

Zero, I guess I'll just give up ay? Because that's a prerequisite for success, you have to have done it before, or someone else has had to have done it. Silly me, oh well back to the drawing board

 

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[Andy Black]

Have an idea(s) for app
1000 hours learning to code
200 hours coding app
pay developers a hell of a lot less money than you would have had you not known shit, to tweak and/or finish your app
Sell some of your app
pay developers to fix bug issues
200 hours coding new app
repeat process
Build capital until you are just concepting and other people are doing the developing.

Voila!

That's 1,200 hours building before you have anything to sell.

How many hours would it then take to sell what you've built (if it can be sold at all)?

Is there another way?

 

[Roli]

Of course there is always another way, but those ways cede control to someone else; this Fastlane shit has got me going, I'd rather sell nothing for 5000 hours whilst working a crappy job and trying to make an affiliate site work and at the end of it sell whatever I sell with full control. Than sell a lot after 50 hours and someone else has all the control.

 

[Andy Black]

Hahaha... suspicions confirmed.

 

[Roli]

That's 1,200 hours building before you have anything to sell.

How many hours would it then take to sell what you've built (if it can be sold at all)?

Is there another way?

...but in the interest of learning, I have 2 ideas for apps which are improvements of what is out there, I have very little expendable income and the only option I can see is give it to one of those companies that rip off all your profits or pay developers thousands I don't have.

Apart from learning to code them myself, what is the other way?

 

[jazb]

Getting stupid now. learn HOW TO SELL.


learn how to close the deal. because at the end of the day, if you do business right, its a matter of selling yourself and your vision.

you sell it to the investors to bring in the money. you sell to employees, and contractors to implement the idea to you....and most important..you sell it to the customer.

learning how to code is no different than learning how to build a house, or fix a car. if you learn these things, how many things can you do realistically? how can you leverage it ?

if you learn how to sell ice to the Eskimos. the world is your oyster.


I believe the reason why people are asking how to code is because of lack of funds and they want to control every aspect of the business. they typically end up bootstrapping and spend 24/7 on a business reinvesting everything. this does work, but its the slow way of getting it done and its brutal at times. you have to spend a lot of time learning about things because you can't afford to pay someone else to do it.

now if you learn how to sell, you can the raise the money and start putting other people in charge of implementing everything. this along side a sales team will propel it very far. then you can leverage yourself to focus on growth. it the best way to get shit done.

I remember an insider call (deleted now). which talked about 2 supplement companies. both did similar revenues + similar products. one company raised the money, outsourced most things, kept financials inside. leveraged themselves to focus on growth. achieved 8 figures in revenue after a couple of years, working regular hours. other company bootstrapped and took 7 years to get there. because they did everything themselves, worked 24/7 and never took a penny out. (memory is fuzzy, details may not be right but you get the point)

now in the beginning, you may not have investor confidence. so its not a bad idea to do things yourself in the beginning. but there has to be a tipping point where you get the money and start focusing on what really matters...growth.


Remember this. you can always raise more money, but you can never get more time.

you could learn how to code. make a program, then start selling. or you can pre sell your software, get some freelancer to do it, then give it them.

something to think about.

 

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[Roli]

Getting stupid now. learn HOW TO SELL.

learning how to code is no different than learning how to build a house, or fix a car. if you learn these things, how many things can you do realistically? how can you leverage it ?

if you learn how to sell ice to the Eskimos. the world is your oyster.


Remember this. you can always raise more money, but you can never get more time.

you could learn how to code. make a program, then start selling. or you can pre sell your software, get some freelancer to do it, then give it them.

something to think about.

So what you're saying is the owner of this forum and the reason why we're here speaking to each other, was wrong when he wanted to start his limo aggregate website and didn't know how to code so he learned himself?

What he should have done was learn how to sell right? He should have tried to sell his idea to an investor?

You can see why I'm sceptical as to your answer;

MJ spent many hours learning to code and then sold his website, bought it back improved it and sold it again; I don't see anything wrong with this model as I'm sure he was learning to sell whilst doing this.

Basically I'm going to do the same thing in a different field; it takes coding knowledge, once I have it up to a certain standard I can attract investors, I can reinvest in serious coders.

To borrow from your analogy; when I owned my first and second motorbikes the difference in reaction when I went into the garage and said something along the lines of;

"My bike's broken, can you fix it?"

and then a couple of bikes later after spending about 50 hours learning how to fix motorbikes...

"The manifold looks like it's rusting and my rear shock is shot to pieces, also my clutch oil could do with a change. Here use this oil and here's the rear shock for you to fit. Oh and take a look at my alternator she sounds like she's not ticking over properly and I keep getting a stall coming down to first."

The first way, I was treated like a chump who needed to be fleeced, the second way I paid less money for more work, because I learned mechanics enough to do simple repairs and crucially, to know what the hell I was talking about.

So whilst I respect that you and the original poster are much more successful than I am, I will carry on my way, which is to learn coding enough to get a working prototype out there. then go from there as I know that the finite time I'm putting into this will come back to me as the idea generate's passive income.

Because as you know better than me ideas aint shit without action and an investor likes to see more action than learning how to make a .pdf.

I don't want to do everything myself, but just enough so that not only am I in control, but I also know what I want and how to ask for it.

 

[tafy]

So what you're saying is the owner of this forum and the reason why we're here speaking to each other, was wrong when he wanted to start his limo aggregate website and didn't know how to code so he learned himself?

That is not what he is saying.

What worked 10-15 years ago will not work today, with Upwork and developers available throughout the world at reasonable prices and amazing talent. Im sure MJ would have gone a different strategy today if he started over.

Don't underestimate how much talent and time it takes to be a great programmer, you need like 10,000 hours plus+

 

[Digamma]

You can see why I'm sceptical as to your answer;

You are not skeptical, you are emotionally invested in being right. There is a difference.
Do it your F*cking own way already. Both ways can work. The only thing that matters is the result.

You do have a point on knowing what you are talking about when going out to people.
I'll add to that: knowing what you're talking about gets you top talent. Good developers can choose who to work with nowadays, and I personally immediately cut out people who don't know what they're talking about. Same thing I hear from others. They're a pain in the a$$ to work with - they tend to ask for stupid things and not trust your judgment.

learning how to code is no different than learning how to build a house, or fix a car. if you learn these things, how many things can you do realistically? how can you leverage it ?

Sure, but would you get into constructions without knowing the difference between a nail and a screw? Would you start a new automobile company without knowing what a carburetor is?
Of course, you wouldn't need to be a building or mechanical engineer. But you need to be an insider in the field. You need to know what you're doing.

 

[Roli]

Im sure MJ would have gone a different strategy today if he started over.

Bet you $50 he wouldn't.

One day as the Little Red Hen was scratching in a field, she found a grain of wheat.

"This wheat should be planted," she said. "Who will plant this grain of wheat ?"

"Not I," said the Duck.
"Not I," said the Cat.
"Not I," said the Dog.

"Then I will," said the Little Red Hen. And she did.
Soon the wheat grew to be tall and yellow.

"The wheat is ripe," said the Little Red Hen. "Who will cut the wheat ?"

"Not I," said the Duck.
"Not I," said the Cat.
"Not I." said the Dog.

"Then I will," said the Little Red Hen. And she did.

When the wheat was cut, the Little Red Hen said, "Who will thresh this wheat ?"
"Not I," said the Duck.
"Not I," said the Cat.
"Not I," said the Dog.

"Then I will," said the Little Red Hen.' And she did.
When the wheat was all threshed, the Little Red Hen said, "Who'll take this wheat to the mill?"
"Not I," said the Duck.
"Not I," said the Cat.
"Not I," said the Dog.

"Then I will," said the Little Red Hen. And she did.

She took the wheat to the mill and had it ground into flour. Then she said,
"Who will make this flour into bread ?"

"Not I," said the, Duck.
"Not I," said the Cat.
"Not I," said the Dog.

"Then I will," said the Little Red Hen. And she did.
She made and baked the bread. Then she said, "Who will eat this bread ?"

"Oh! I will," said the Duck.
"And I will," said the Cat.
"And I will," said the Dog.

"No, no!" said the Little Red Hen. "I will do that." And she did.

 

[Roli]

You are not skeptical, you are emotionally invested in being right. There is a difference.
Do it your F*cking own way already.

Lol, it's almost like you know me!

Ultimately learning how to code is an oil change, and I need it so I'm doing it, end of. I reckon I'll be back here in a year or 2 high fiving you and saying I told you so to the others. If I'm not, I'll have a skill that'll make me employable in the slowlane; as Charlie Sheen would say; winning!

 

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[tafy]

Bet you $50 he wouldn't.

You have your belief and others have the opposite belief, if your the type of person who can program and get good at it great.

 

[healthstatus]

What worked 10-15 years ago will not work today

The speed of advancement is hard to grasp. If you go back 2-3 years in time, responsive frameworks were either very new or unheard of, big data, hadoop, and cloud based architectures didn't really exist. Go find a post that is 3 years old on designing for mobile devices and compare that to best practices now.

The sophistication of the users, the sophistication of the hackers, ratings systems, social systems, if you don't have a pretty bug free product that is solid and hacker proof, you don't get a second chance anymore. I know some of my early stuff had some serious problems, traffic spikes would crash my systems, data getting lost, would never be tolerated today like it was back in the 90's. Now if I have a broken link I get all kinds of email about it.

 

[healthstatus]

Because that's a prerequisite for success, you have to have done it before, or someone else has had to have done it.

No, but when you head down a road that very knowledgeable people tell you is a dead end or vastly more difficult than you perceive it to be, don't be surprised when you hit a dead end. And don't make crap up and tell everyone that is an alternative.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Bet you $50 he wouldn't.

To be honest, I'm not sure.

At the time, I did what needed to be done. There was no UpWork, no ELance, no real easy way to find talent. There also wasn't a mainstream push toward learning code, Udemy, CodeAcademy, etc. Newsgroups and forums where the go to place. At that time, I knew almost as much as anyone else because the tech was so emergent.

I think today I would take a stab at learning the new tech, see how much it's changed and if it is realistic for me to learn.

I actually enjoyed learning to code and building things so it fell into the "do what you love" category, didn't mind it at all. I then would try to weave professionals into the mix (assuming I was insistent on being a one man show). Guess what I'm saying is I wouldn't know what road to take until I actually packed my bags and hopped into the car.

In the end, do what you think will work for you.