You guys are too hard on Higher Education, in my opinion. Here’s why.

[ChrisV]

People on this forum know that higher education makes more money than a person that didn't go to school. We know that they make more money. We just don't want to trade time for it. Hence why it's called Fastlane.

If someone makes 120k/yr, it’s most likely becasue they provide 120k of value each year. Employers just ‘round’ the numbers like that becasue it’s kind of hard to look over everyone’s shoulder and see exactly how many widgets they’re making. And I think it just makes their expenses more predictable. That and a lot of people like a predictable salary and don’t like the idea of making 18k some months then 1k on others. I think they say “Okay this guy is worth 10k/mo” becasue he provides 10K worth the value per month. It may fluctuate a little each month, but for the most part it’s probably pretty steady.

And don’t get me wrong, I agree with you guys fully. I’m not a fan or the hourly wage either and would rather get paid for what I produce, but I’m just trying to provide an objective view of the pros of both sides. Sometimes I get the impression that some people on here just believe that having a job is total hell and going to college is for suckers.

 

[GoGetter24]

Interesting that even in a society with so much higher education, nobody is taught that...

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.
Correlation doesn't imply causation.
Correlation doesn't imply causation.

 

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[ChrisV]

A lot has changed in just a few short years.

The % of degrees that have ZERO economic value or cultural demand is probably greater than three-fourths, or 75%. So instead of educating our youth, the university system has become an indoctrination camp, propagandizing our youth to be useful idiots ready to join the ranks of the victim ideology and the party that panders to it.

Yes, I'm hard on "higher education" because higher education has gone from degrees in electrical engineering, medicine, and computer programming to philosophy, political science, and gender studies.

The latter is NOT worth any kind of debt. Period. And I don't give a damn what any chart manufactured by a government organization says.

View attachment 20925

But that’s also anecdotal. Sure, a certain percentage of people haven’t gotten their value out of a degree, but what about the people who have? For us to make valid inferences we have to at the whole picture.

I agree that Academia has somewhat become a liberal shitshow. All these assholes at Colombia or Brown with their safe-spaces and trigger warnings and cry-baby victim mentality have really skewed the academic realm.

And I don't give a damn what any chart manufactured by a government organization says.

Okay trust me, I value and respect your perspective and opinion, otherwise I wouldn’t even be here and I actually agree with a lot of what you’re saying... but I’ve spent years studying Data Science and to say "any chart manufactured by a government organization" is to literally accuse the Bureau of Labor Statistics of data fraud. It’s widely known that college graduates, on average, earn more. Pew Research Center and Gallup Polls (which are literally the two most highly respected data science firms in the country, who are not affiliated with the government at all) have similar findings.

Note how the areas with low levels of educational attainment are the same areas that have high levels of poverty. They’re nearly mirror images.

Like I said, I do respect your perspective and opinion on this, but College Graduates just earn more. I agree, it’s still a slow lane approach, but College graduates, on average, simply make more than non-grads. You may have personally had a bad experience with college, but that’s not necessarily representative of the average. It’s one data point out of millions. To answer the question of “is a degree worth it” we can’t just look at one or two or even 10 samples... we have to take a representative sample.

Trust me, I had a bad experience with college too. I went for my Business Administration degree and after a couple months I’m like ‘are you freaking serious? i could have learned 10x more if i just cracked open a book.”... which is what I ended up doing. It’s also worth noting that I went to a Community College thinking it would be the same thing (big mistake,) and private colleges are 100x better.

Now how the specific degrees add up is a different story, and it’s always been well known that a Liberal Arts degree only serves to waste paper, and that same paper would have been more valuable if it were turned into say... toilet paper.... those aren’t the only degrees offered.

From a survey:

To say that a degree is completely worthless is a little bit of a longshot. If there was a button that could download all the knowledge attained in 4-8 years of college, and also give you the certificate.. pushing that button would have no value? Maybe your situation is unique, but it would have no value to other people either?

A lot of people feel their degree was worth the money.

I also agree that what I’ve learned via online classes was very valuable, even though I don’t have the piece of paper proving my knowledge.

The causal reasons for success are complex. Success does suffer a ‘filtering’ effect. In other words it’s hard to figure out if someone is successful because they went to Harvard, or if they went to Harvard becasue they’re successful. The evidence seems to point to both having an impact, the latter being stronger. But I can write an entire topic on that itself.

 

[rollerskates]

I'm a big fan of education, but not necessarily school. For instance, getting a degree in gender studies and then being $150K in debt is not the kind of education that's useful.

Getting an MD is useful. But honestly, if people could just be minimally educated to communicate using logic and think critically, society would be far better off.

 

[ZCP]

Jobs and businesses are the same thing when boiled down to their essence. .....

Then you are missing the fastlane component. Reread the books. Slow down. Open your thinking. See things from a different perspective.

 

[Chromozone]

What about when the market needs say.. Data Scientists. That’s a good example because Data Scientists are in high demand and low supply, so there’s a goldmine there. Same with Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning. So how do land a position doing Data Science AI or ML without training?

Same with nurses, physicians, psychologists, astrophysicists, engineers, neuroscientists, etc.

Lol, I am a physician!

(But, I'm not going to hand over my future to an employer!!)

I think you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

Everyone agrees education has its place. The world does really need more (good) physicians.

But you are completely ignoring the fact that many many people hate their job, don't have any money, don't have time to spend with their family, are literally wasting their lives away when they could be doing so much more.

You're a data scientist - why don't you look into the correlation (and yes causation in this case) between the modern education system/job market and anxiety/depression/suicide rates.

I can point you towards some studies if you would like.

 

[ChrisV]

I can point you towards some studies if you would like.

I would love that. Shoot. I’m actually really interested in reading these.

And no, I’m not even arguing really. I agree with and subscribe to the Fastlane approach for the most part. Again, I just feel like it’s healthy to see both sides.

At the end of the day, regardless of your trade a job is going to give you a steady stream of work and clients, but there are tradeoffs be cause you’re at the mercy of that employer and how they want to treat you. You have to play by their rules and follow their directions because they’re the one who holds the bag of treats.


Or you can throw it all away, build your own database of clients and not be beholden to anyone. It’s hard work and it’s risky and there are lots of ups and down, but if you do it right you don’t owe anybody anything.

And yes, a lot of people hate their jobs. But a lot of people love their jobs too.

My point is mainly, while it may not be for us - some people are happy with going to college then getting a job.

My feeling on this really come from the fact that I have such a tremendous respect for the academic community and academia (as a physician you’ll likely appreciate this,) and the empirical way of thinking that comes with it. I have such a great respect for these universities and how much work the scientific community done for humanity that I just don’t think it’s fair to get on their case. So much of the society we know enjoy and love, wouldn’t be possible if it weren’t for the role universities play.

 

[ChrisV]

I have 4 college degrees and I use them every day -- just NOT like my colleges intended.
The internet has opened up the possibility of doing a Fastlane business. That didn't exist when I was younger. And almost everything was closed to women until the mid-1970s. So, here's my take on college...
1. It's your education. Use it how you see fit. Bend it. Mold it. Ride it as far as it will take you. Then fill the gaps with additional education.
2. A college degree isn't worth as much anymore with the availability of online education.
In the past, few had the luxury of going to college. Barbers & priests did the doctoring. Rich men did the attorney, accounting and administrative work for the rulers. Almost no one could read except for a select few. Society needed job skills (farmers, smiths, potters, carpenters, warriors, etc.) -- not thinking skills. Now it's reversed.
3. Most professional fields require a lot of specialization. The colleges, for the most part, are way behind the times.
4. Education has become the ultimate personal choice. I love all the information available. This is a golden time to be alive. The gatekeepers have lost their power!

I spend a lot of time everyday educating myself. You should never stop learning!

I love you. This is my favorite reply in the whole thread. A formal education is becoming obsolete because of the internet.

 

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[ChrisV]

Um no that's not how it works at all.

An employee is SELLING THEIR TIME to their employer.

Oh okay...and how is their hourly rate determined? Why does one person make $12/hr, while someone else makes $45/hr. It’s determined by what value they bring to the table and how replaceable they are.

I’ve studied this for years.

How much the employee's time is worth is based on SUPPLY AND DEMAND.

This is why servers are paid so little whereas doctors can make over $100K. It's not about who is perceived to contribute more, it's about what the market value is.

Servers bring you a glass of water. Doctors bring you a lung. Who contributes more? Who’s services are more valuable?

Yet, one could argue servers are incredibly valuable, yet why they get paid minimum wage? Because their employers can.

First off, most of the servers I know make around 65K/yr in tips. Good, personable servers make very good money. So that’s perhaps a bad example, so let’s take a Fast Food employee instead. He gets paid poorly because anyone can do what he does. They’re replaceable. It’s a little more complex than that but economists agree that there are about 4 factors that determine a wage (excerpt from Freakonomics)

when there are a lot of people willing and able to do a job, that job generally doesn’t pay well. This is one of four meaningful factors that determine a wage. The others are the specialized skills a job requires, the unpleasantness of a job, and the demand for services that the job fulfills.

The delicate balance between these factors helps explain why, for instance, the typical prostitute earns more than the typical architect. It may not seem as though she should. The architect would appear to be more skilled (as the word is usually defined) and better educated (again, as usually defined). But little girls don’t grow up dreaming of becoming prostitutes, so the supply of potential prostitutes is relatively small. Their skills, while not necessarily “specialized,” are practiced in a very specialized context. The job is unpleasant and forbidding in at least two significant ways: the likelihood of violence and the lost opportunity of having a stable family life. As for demand? Let’s just say that an architect is more likely to hire a prostitute than vice versa.

In the glamour professions—movies, sports, music, fashion—there is a different dynamic at play. Even in second-tier glamour industries like publishing, advertising, and media, swarms of bright young people throw themselves at grunt jobs that pay poorly and demand unstinting devotion. An editorial assistant earning $22,000 at a Manhattan publishing house, an unpaid high-school quarterback, and a teenage crack dealer earning $3.30 an hour are all playing the same game, a game that is best viewed as a tournament.

I posted about this the other day.

 

[Xavier X]

I’m mad that the person with a degree in 14th Century Doll History might actually be the clear winner of the bunch.

Highly unlikely.
That person would most likely be 2 out of 3. It's demand in the labor market is extremely limited, and its direct applicability in the entrepreneurial space is also really limited.

If the person studied 14th Century Doll Design and Making on the other hand, that could be worth something.
On the slowlane side, they could offer specialized crafting skills to a toy company.
On the fastlane side, they could design/create a great doll and start a great brand of dolls. Hi! my name is Chucky, you wanna play? (sorry, I just finished watching Cult of Chucky, I had to ).

 

[The Abundant Man]

The good thing about having a higher education, though, is that you've a skill which allows you to work in an industry, and you end up with domain knowledge. You get to be in higher positions in the company, build a more powerful network, earn more, live a better life after you've paid off your study loan.

And if you've a good paying job, you can save more, and saving more = more resources to fund your business or whatever you want to do. This means you can afford to pay the manufacturer for the injection mould's costs and have money to throw at FB ads, without having to scrimp and worry about every penny every day.

A general manager and a warehouse worker both wants to start the same type of business. Assuming both have the same idea, I'm willing to bet the GM guy will succeed easier and faster than the warehouse worker.

The thing, as people have mentioned, is that people with higher education and good paying jobs usually don't have that "urge" or "fire" to go into entrepreneurship. I'm willing to bet most of them don't even have a FTE.

What's FTE?

 

[Brendan8450]

I partially read this ..millions seems to stream..

CULTURE HAS EFFED UP OUR STABLE STATE

Why not be happy making 200K and run for the hills? .

My ideology may be effed but millions nowadays should be for philanthropists and those changing the world. We should not compete...we should collaborate.

I am not a millionaire. Nowadays, i dont want to be. The Gov disguise it in taxes but they know our world needs help.

## ditch media exposure for 5 days...notice how you feel after the weekend

 

[ZCP]

Got any charts for business owners?

 

[ChrisV]

@ChrisV
The bigger picture that I got from Unscripted and TMF is that the market doesn't give a poo about your education.

The market is selfish and wants what it wants. ​

So, yes go to Uni or College, but go in with your eyes open and don't dare complain when your BS degree doesn't even provide enough value to society that you can't afford to move out your mothers basement.

What about when the market needs say.. Data Scientists. That’s a good example because Data Scientists are in high demand and low supply, so there’s a goldmine there. Same with Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning. So how do land a position doing Data Science AI or ML without training?

Same with nurses, physicians, psychologists, astrophysicists, engineers, neuroscientists, etc.

 

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[SEBASTlAN]

The good thing about having a higher education, though, is that you've a skill which allows you to work in an industry, and you end up with domain knowledge.

90%+ of the time you can gain that skill outside of school for a fraction of the cost and time.

 

[ChrisV]

I would literally rather drop dead than work a 9-5 for $75K a year, so there's that.

Why? And are you sure?

 

[ChrisV]

Well I also think the world has changed a lot. Years ago college was one of the only places you could gain knowledge. Now? Knowledge is freely available on the internet.

Think of the evolution of learning a trade:

Originally you took on an apprenticeship. Then as the need for education got greater, one teacher would teach 12 students. Then 24 in school. 100+ in large college classes. Now one Coursera or Edx course can have allow millions to watch. MIT recently posted ALL of their classes online for free.

I think College as an institution is going to dissolve. It’s simply becoming an outdated technology.

 

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[ChrisV]

A person who blows $100k on a BA in 14th Century Doll History made a choice (WITH consequences).

A person who spends $50k on a relevant engineering degree also made a choice.

A person who says college is irrelevant, BUT makes NO effort to acquire solid skills also made a choice.



...



One bright morning, all three read TMF and Unscripted and internalize the concepts.

Who would be in a better position to leverage and springboard off their current skill set and cash flow?

I’m mad that the person with a degree in 14th Century Doll History might actually be the clear winner of the bunch.

Out of everything in TMF & Unscripted , the most important message is TIME



Time, is the only thing in life that matters regardless of what anyone says, when you goto college you are trading time to trade more time in a job for money.



Yes there are lots of careers out there that are awesome and bring great enjoyment & happiness.



Believe I speak for everyone on this forum, we are here for freedom to do whatever we want with our time not to trade it for $. This is not the careerlaneforum,



Lots of people here have created businesses that earn $ whilst not trading time, I'm betting the bank thats a lot quicker than a career and education, also requiring large capital for a business is complete bull ****



Even finding a minium wage job is tough, good luck with a fancy education. Its literally gambling with hope you FIND a job. Having control over your life is a much more optimal decision. Personally I've met lots of people that are University educated and are completely dead broke living at home/grinding minium wage jobs.





Im basically regurgitating MJ in TMF, so I don't take credit for the gold bombs above, cheers.

Well to me the clear benefit of the Fastlane approach is automation. Let’s put it this way, with a simple example.... I can start a company cutting lawns. Or I can create a roomba-like robot that cuts lawns for me. I spend my time programming rather than cutting lawns, because by spending time doing that, the process will soon be fully automated.

Anyone who’s figured out how to automate their job at a company gets fired. I believe it’s happened a few times.

A programmer figured out how to automate his job and work 2 hours a week -- but he's not sure it's ethical

If you took an 18 year old kid, locked them in a room with TMF and made him or her create a business/company, and took another 18 year old forcing them into University/College there's a 0% chance the latter is better off than the first in the next 5 years.

0% chance? I don’t know if that’s completely fair.

 

[Xeon]

What's FTE?

F*ck This Event, a term in Unscripted .

 

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[The Abundant Man]

What on earth are you talking about?

• Millionaires should only do charities

• Slowlaners should be happy making 200k/year

 

[ChrisV]

Highly unlikely.
That person would most likely be 2 out of 3. It's demand in the labor market is extremely limited, and its direct applicability in the entrepreneurial space is also really limited.

It was a joke. Although I’m sure there’s a market for that that someone could make profitable.

 

[jcvlds]

I feel a bit ill, looking at the rising trend of 'fake entrepreneurs', as Gary V calls it. I feel a little afraid to consider what all this will lead up to..probably nothing short of a total economic F*ckup?

Interesting.

What’s a ‘fake entrepreneur’? What criteria would put one in that bucket?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ChrisV]

I also see that university has brought me:

• networking skills

• ability to sort and criticize fake / false news

• open to new ideas and challenging theories

• work ethic and problem solving skills.

While a lot of these skills are not quantifiable, I feel like their importance should not be over looked. I don't think that I would have ever seeked out books like Unscripted or learned to do personal research if it wasn't for the environment and network that University put me in.

YES YES YES. The ability to sort Fact from Bullshit is literally the most valuable skill I’ve ever learned. And in college, that is pounded into your head. Where’s your reference? Is it a credible source? Are there studies to back that up? Did the Author of those studies have any conflicting interests that might bias their results? Any financial interests? Who did the study? How

Many participants were in the study? Was it double blinded and placebo controlled?



I don’t know where I’d be without the scientific method.

Philosophy taught me about Logical Fallacies and reasoning.

Anecdotal vs Empirical evidence. Academia simply taught me how to get to the bottom of truth. It taught me how to distinguish fact from faction which is literally the most valuable skill I have.





But let me also clarify this, which I’m not sure if I mentioned I never went to college in the thread... I didn’t go to college. I take online classes from reputable colleges online for the sake of enrichment. But what they teach in those MOOCs is the same class they teach in campus. But I have a tremendous respect for academia as a whole. For example I’ve taken many courses from Harvard (many were FREE,) and let me tell you Harvard is an amazing brand. They care so much about education and value it so much. People have a totally incorrect perception of Harvard. They’re seen as elitist, stick up, complicated, and they’re actually the complete opposite. If you’re from a family who makes under $65,000/yr… between their scholarships and FAFSA, you literally pay nothing. Your tuition is literally $0.

But even pdf you have to pay full price, tuition at Harvard is only about 45K, which is about average.

From their site: Amount that parents making less than $65,000 are expected to contribute. Ninety percent of American families would pay the same or less to send their children to Harvard as they would a state school

Cost of Attendance | Harvard College


Harvard is a great brand. They truly care about education and bettering the world, and I’ve gotten tremendous value from their classes. I took their famous CS50 and Justice classes just for fun. They offer tons of their famous courses for free on their site. That being said, if I had to pay tens of thousands of dollars for what I’ve learned from Academia, I would probably feel different.

 

[MTEE1985]

I don’t believe anybody is trying to say that a degree is worthless, what I’m seeing with higher education is that degree programs are being created for no other reason than to have them. (You mean I can’t make $250k or go fastlane in gender studies MJ?)

I agree with @ChrisV in that employees can add a tremendous amount of value. Down here in Tucson we have Raytheon employing thousands of engineers, scientists etc. who are all “highly educated” and who do in fact provide lots of contribution. There are lots of people out there who cannot fathom not being an employee and for them, yes, better to be the employee with a piece paper that says they’re “smarter” than others.

Where we go astray as a society is the notion (and government urging) that college guarantees success regardless of your major.

 

[socaldude]

Another way of looking at it is asking if college isn't being too hard on it's students? What about the government?

They're overcharging for an outdated and useless education.

Charge $50k or $100k then teach you something useless?

How is that for value and customer service?
I think thats worse than someone who has the balls to question academia.

 

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[ChrisV]

I usually try to avoid getting into these discussions. It really is a matter of opinion. But, here goes.

Seems to me that the people that are disciplined enough to work hard and get through the higher education process are the same ones that would still produce without that education. Most jobs can be learned though.

AND... you are talking jobs. Some of us don't talk jobs.

Jobs and businesses are the same thing when boiled down to their essence. As an employee you’re selling your services to an employer in the same way your mechanic sells his services to you.

It’s just a long term contract that’s paid a flat rate.

But yes, I do understand this is an entrepreneurial forum.

Seems to me that the people that are disciplined enough to work hard and get through the higher education process are the same ones that would still produce without that education. Most jobs can be learned though.

There is some research to suggest that this is true, to an extent. But at the end of the day, if you want to be a physicist, you need the training. If you want to be an electrician, you need the training. Hard work pays, but so does experience. With experience you can get jobs done faster increasing your productivity and increasing the value you provide. So a slightly lazy veteran electrician might make more than a hardworking newbie.

 

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[ChrisV]

Then you are missing the fastlane component. Reread the books. Slow down. Open your thinking. See things from a different perspective.

No, I get it. Listen, I’m on your guys’ side. Buttttt, sometimes I feel like the rhetoric around here can err on the side of:

“Going to college and getting job is for brainwashed idiots You’re going to just graduate with massive amounts of debt and have to wait tables the rest of your life and even if you DO make it.. you’re going to be a 9-5 slave corporate whipping boy the rest of your life and have to give back rubs daily to Upper management”

And I think a more moderate/balanced approach would be healthy. Like

“Listen, college certainly isn’t the best way to millionaire status. You want to become a millionaire? Start a business. One that fills a market demand that’s scaleable and can be automated. So college definitely isn’t the best way to million, but it can help you build a skillset that can help you build a pretty damn good life for you and your family.”

College Grads make more. Period. There’s not a shred of data to suggest otherwise. I don’t think it’s fair to paint the “go to college, get a job” thing as such a horrible fate that’s just as bad as slavery.

What about people who work at Apple? Or Google? Or Tesla.

Again, like I said.. I’m on your guys’ side totally love the idea of running businesses.

That being said, I would accept a job at Tesla in a minute. Imagine every day going to work knowing that your products are literally saving the planet and changing history. Or Space X. Literally being part of the team that helped colonize Mars. I think that’s actually more exciting than the Graphic Design company I’m currently running.

And while we’re on the subject of Space X or Tesla.. good luck safely getting a rocket into space without a PhD in physics

That being said, Elon Musk has specifically said he doesn’t care if someone went to college or not

But THAT being said, I don’t know how much I trust a self-taught physicist, in the same way I’m not sure I’d trust a self-taught surgeon or psychiatrist. I mean it would be nice to live in a world where your skills were all that mattered, but the reality is most em

 

[ChrisV]

95% of the time you can gain that skill outside of school for a fraction of the cost and time.

How are you going to prove that on a resume? That only works if you want to start a business. Not everyone wants to start a business.

In the employment market, it’s hard to submit a resume that says "I’m really good at Microbiology... trust me.”

Compare that to say “graduated with Honors from Princeton with a PhD in Microbiology 2004 - 2012” Having the degree from a reputable University shows that you passed all those classes and have that knowledge from a legal, degree granting institute.

 

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[ChrisV]

Don't agree. Seems that we will not be on the same page. Not necessary for me to respond anymore.

It’s all trade. You’re trading your services for their money. There’re differences but From a philosophical perspective, it’s simply a trade.

 

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