Why is it OK for you to STEAL from me?

[throttleforward]

Big difference, when you come to my site you are using up my resources. Once you pick up the paper you are using your resources, on my site you are using mine.

But I used the newspaper's trucks, printing press, expensive paper and ink, reporters...do you really see a difference? I don't come to your site - I request information from your servers, and your servers deliver it to me just like a newspaper delivers to my door. There is no additional expense once it gets to my door. Your costs have already been spent. If I get a free newspaper delivered to my door, I can pay my neighbor to cut out all the ads. I have ever right to do that. Likewise, when your bits and bytes arrive at the browser installed on my physical machine, I have every right to have software parse out the ads.

 

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[Berters]

No you don't. I have over half a dozen servers doing the work that needs to be done to keep my sites running. And to the point of this thread it doesn't matter if it is $1 or $1,000,000.

Well then I apologise for wasting your time by trying to help.

 

[Coalission]

LOL @ shoplifting comparison...this is a very subtle troll thread, nicely done

 

[Determined2012]

It sounds like you are trying to obligate the consumer to view your ads- (but only because it is beneficial to you)
If so- nothing wrong with that- but TELL them up front!!! Give them that option then! I would have no clue about how you would want or need me to view your ads to your benefit.

I am one of those average internet browsers- I don't ever click on ads- and I hate pop ups--- I wouldn't go pay to have it blocked, but I find pop ups and ads on the side of pages super annoying, and don't know how they impact or effect the owners of the site- I don't care really- All I know is I don't want to see it! (Sorry- guess I am a selfish consumer because I don't want to see that stuff while I'm trying to browse around on line) I pay for access to the internet- to Comcast- every month- so when I log on to any site- I want to use it how *I* want to use it- not how someone else thinks I should or wants me to. I think a lot of internet users are average to this degree.

I hate that YouTube started obligating users to view 15 second commercials before they allow you to get to the content you are trying to access... They have CONTROL there tho- so if you want to view their video, you will have to view their commercial also--- sometimes you can "SKIP" it, but sometimes they don't allow you to skip and you have to sit there and watch it until it goes off if you really want to see the video that led you to their site.

If I go to Bloomingdales and have a sales rep spend an hour with me trying on thousand dollar pairs of Louboutin shoes- yet I don't buy anything- (and she could have been using that time to help a customer that IS going to buy some shoes) am I am thieving rat bastard?! I might be a douche for "wasting her time" but that option to do that is available to me and I can use it if I choose--- Aside--- I MIGHT go back to Bloomingdales and purchase 3 of the 10 I tried with her at a later time, just wanted to check things out first... Someone up top said it best--- This is all the cost of being in business.
There are unlimited instances of this.

In this debate, I am on the consumers side--- The customer IS always right... Right?!

 

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[healthstatus]

they do change the way the do business. They may change their displays, entry/exit, positioning of merchandise, location of cash registers

Yes, I agree 100%, and my original post was asking what should I do, what do you guys think, why shouldn't I just kick people off that try and avoid the ads? Several posts have been helpful and many are saying nothing wrong with people doing that, and I am a greedy money-chaser, which has been surprising to me.

But I used the newspaper's trucks, printing press, expensive paper and ink, reporters...do you really see a difference?

I do, first I am not familiar with any free newspapers that offer delivery, so typically a free newspaper gets dropped a specific distribution point (grocery store), and someone comes and collects it (you). At that point the publisher has met his obligation with the advertisers, they will get a certain distribution for a certain cost per ad. You show up at my site, and you request specific content which requires bandwidth only allocated to you, database requests for your specific query, and I meet my obligation with my advertiser when you SEE the ad. Much different.

(but only because it is beneficial to you)

I am in business to make money. This is a business owner forum, and I am getting slaughtered for taking issue about people stealing.

 

[Determined2012]

How are they stealing though, if they don't know you need/want them to view the ad? Or are you saying they are turning it on SPECIFICALLY for your site? Do they KNOW you need/want them to see it?

If I went to your site- I would not know that.

I'm all for making money- but you are saying the intention is malicious or deliberate.
Like people are saying- man, I'm about to go to health status site.... let me turn on the ad blocker so he can't get any coins off me today.

So can you clarify this part for me?

Thanks

kick people off that try and avoid the ads?

How do you know they are trying to avoid it? I would think this ad block software on is for every site they visit- not just yours?

Not viewing the ads is beneficial to the customer (who may or may not want to see- its there choice) So you as a business owner have your goals and intentions, and me as a consumer have mine--- Do we agree that this part is accurate/fair?

 

[healthstatus]

but you are saying the intention is malicious or deliberate.

they installed ad blocker software, an extra step, that does not come standard on the major browsers, very deliberate. They know it will alter the content that is presented to them. Really?? You go to websites and see ads on all those pages, and never made the connection that is how they might be making money? Do people think ads on TV make the TV people money? But not on the Internet?

So can you clarify this part for me?

Go to a casino, sit at a popular slot machine at a peak time and don't put any money in. Will you be asked to start playing or leave? I think leaving is in your future.

 

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[PeteLife]

Its just one of the many the cost of doing business ...

If you can't handle it, change your structure or get into something else.

Reality is that people DON'T CARE about you, your revenue, or your feelings.
Every entrepreneur need to know and understand that.

 

[brob742]

let me turn on the ad blocker so he can't get any coins off me today.

@healthstatus - Do you know for sure that it doesn't register an impression even though ad blocker is enabled? I thought that impressions are still registering, but clicks were not possible...which would be okay/normal for the publisher, but something the advertiser should be aware of.

It happens on all sites though, not just yours.

 

[throttleforward]

Yes, I agree 100%, and my original post was asking what should I do, what do you guys think, why shouldn't I just kick people off that try and avoid the ads? Several posts have been helpful and many are saying nothing wrong with people doing that, and I am a greedy money-chaser, which has been surprising to me.

One thing that I wish the internet would do would be to display intelligent ads. (disclaimer: I haven't clicked through everything on your site, so if you do this I apologize) If someone takes a BMI calculation on your site, and they come up with overweight, I'd like to see a highly targeted, intelligent display of ads, localized to my location, using data from my browsing and purchase history (like "throttle, did you know that the Washington DC Crossfit is hosting a free BMI Killer Klass on March 11th? Click here for more details).

I know you can't do this yourself (would require a new kind of ad network), but I think this is where ads should go. Right now it's all about "dumb" stuff, like retargeting. That's too intellectually easy for me. I get that it works, but it's actually kind of annoying and creepy.

Even the retargeting could be smarter. For instance, let's say I look at Appsumo's copywriting checklist but decide not to buy. The "internet" knows or could know that I didn't buy. Instead of displaying the same ad for the course over and over, why doesn't it display an ad asking me why I didn't buy (or otherwise acknoledge my lack of purchase)?

If I were a multimillionaire looking for my next venture, this is where I would start.

edit: same goes for other kinds of marketing. Nothing makes me angrier than email blasts just because I was a previous customer. The business knows exactly what I bought from them - why not tailor the ads to my buying habits? If I buy roller hockey wheels every 3 months from the same website, shouldn't the website acknoledge this and send me a predictive ad that says "Throttle, thanks for being such a loyal customer! You are probably thinking about buying wheels again - it's been 3 months. Here are some deals we think you might like on roller hockey wheels. And here is a PDF on how to increase the lifespan of your wheels."

 

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[AllenCrawley]

@healthstatus you sure know how to start some polarizing threads, lol. When I have some time later on I will post my thoughts on this but for now you really do bring up some very interesting points. Stay tuned...

 

[RHL]

about 10-15% of my ads are for my own products on the site, my apps, most people get to my site looking for health calculators

This just doesn't make sense. Work the 'ad' into an article feature with a call to action and a pitch at the end. The only way to stop the relentless march of adblock is to work sales into the raw content itself.

 

[JAJT]

You should be more upset at the environment that created a need for the blocking software than the people using it.

Pop-ups and pop-unders that automatically play sound, ads that enlarge/move/make sound when you hover over them, sites that literally white-wash the entire page with ads, Porn ads on non-porn websites, pop-ups that create pop-ups that create pop-ups.

Quite frankly, users were seething-pissed at these before ad blocker (and such) came around. It was like walking into a mall and having every merchant yelling in your face. So the users put in earplugs. Sure they can't hear the nice and respectful merchants, which sucks, but the peace and quiet was worth it.

It's just a situation where a few "bad apples" ruined it for the ones trying to "play by the rules".

 

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[cashis]

You are seeing this the wrong way. It's not like I come to your site, see ads and decide to install AdBlocker. I have it installed because so many sites go overboard with ads, popups, and what have you. I'm also one of those people who has never clicked an ad, because not a single one of them was of interest to me. If ever there comes along something life changing, I am sure I wouldn't find it in an ad.

Just for the record, I visited your site a few days ago and disabled the blocker, because I wanted to see what kind of ads you have, and also because you have a reasonable number and no popups. Now that I know you make money from just showing me the ads, all the more reason to turn it off. After calling me a thieving rat, not so sure.

As for a solution to this, I think text behind them saying "Ads are how we keep this website free, we don't show pop-ups, please disable your adblocker." would be one solution. Not everyone will disable it, but some will. Redirecting adblock users will backfire on you, it's certainly not the way to go.

The best solution would be a different revenue model of course, but that's not the point of this thread. Talk about fair, most things aren't fair.

 

[AndrewNC]

Yes, I agree 100%, and my original post was asking what should I do...

I am in business to make money....

So what are you going to do about it? I just checked my backend, and 50 people got some of my digital products for free because of a hack... People purposely manipulating the system to get my products for free. It sucks, and like you, I am in business to make money. I could spend days figuring out how to prevent that, or I can spend the same amount of time build out my products and expanding my marketing to get 300 customers in the future.

The route I chose is to mark it off as a loss and push forward with what will bring me the most revenue for my business (building more products with that time). This might not be the best option for you.

1-Can you redirect only those people to a specific sales/membership page?
2- As suggested by someone else, replace the area where ads show with an html ad to your own product, .
3- Or a donation button with an explanation of how them not seeing your ads takes income away from your family. Most people dont realize how all this stuff works.

What are you going to do in order to push forward?

 

[healthstatus]

Do you know for sure that it doesn't register an impression even though ad blocker is enabled?

I don't even want to think about it, lower CPM rates, equivalent to click/site traffick fraud. I thought most were intercepting javascript calls on the browser side.

This just doesn't make sense.

You've never seen my bank account to know if it does or not. Yes, I include my product offerings in content, I also do ads, I also email, I cross promote....

What are you going to do in order to push forward?

Right now I am collecting analytics on what % of the users during a week are using an ad blocker.

After calling me a thieving rat, not so sure.

No one will ever confuse FastLaneForum with a humor site, not much of that going on around here.....

you sure know how to start some polarizing threads

I like to make you moderators earn your coins....

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

@healthstatus you're asking consumers not to be consumers. You're asking consumers to think. You're asking consumers to violate their expectations of a normal web experience. In other words, you're asking for a miracle, like asking a politician to clean out the welfare rolls to save those evil rich business owners.

If you want to beat the ad blockers, mention it on a splash page and go to war. (I think this "solution" is like throwing out the baby with the bath water.)
"This website is supported to sponsorships and ads. To view this content, please turn OFF your ad blocker."

Even this forum has such a plugin.


http://xenforo.com/community/resources/rellect-adblock-detector.2312/

Yes but the average consumer doesn't know that, and the results wouldn't be any different if the movie theater operated differently. YOU decided to make a movie theater/website that relies solely on ad revenue, it isn't the consumer's job to study your business model, it is their job to be consumers, and for us as business owners to decide and figure out how to best extract money from them.

The best analogy to me is the movie theater example provided by @Coalission .

Your movie theater doors are all open and content is freely accessible. While there is NO SIGNAGE that says *FREE* there is also no signage that says "AD SUPPORTED". You then get angry when the movie theater is full but no one sticks around to watch the post movie ads. To ask consumers to figure out your revenue model is an asinine proposition.

One thing I learned a long time ago is you can't change general consumer behavior -- you can only change yours.

I also view some things as a cost of doing business.

BTW: I don't use an ad blocker and actually enjoy seeing ads. Popups, not so much.

 

[smarty]

@healthstatus you are right to some extent but I want to polarize this even more with an example:

You walk by a violinist who is performing on the sidewalk. (the website)
You like the music a lot (content), but you somehow are intimidated by other people watching around (ads) so you quickly walk away and you don't stop to donate him any money (clicks) or attention (impressions).

Now how can he accuse you for STEALING him? What would you think of the violinist if he would jump around accusing visitors for stealing?

It would be good if everyone donated, but not everyone does, unless he performs on a concert by selling tickets (membership or content lock).
Human nature.

 

[redshep]

I am getting slaughtered for taking issue about people stealing

No, some just disagree with your definition.

People who were never going to buy in the first place are not a lost sale, and it's not theft just because they didn't convert. All you can do is control the experience and make it as frictionless as possible for those that might.

 

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[RHL]

You've never seen my bank account to know if it does or not.

True. What I do see here is pretty much everybody is giving you advice you don't want. What do you think is more likely, that, especially in a state of anger and frustration (one I share as an online content creator funded heavily by ads, remember) you've got the right idea and we're all wrong, or that we might have a point about the futility of fighting this, and you need to have a rethink? I got my a$$ kicked by a thread about this very issue surrounding YouTube content creation a few months ago. First I fought it. I said that other people here didn't know YouTube the way I did. They weren't checking my analytics data, they didn't have my numbers in front of them. Then I got angry-this just sucks, I spend a lot of money and time on this and I'm not being well compensated; there must be a way around it. Then I accepted it, moved my eggs to another basket, and I started making a LOT more money.

I know this blows, but it's decision time: Is being right or being rich(er) more valuable to you?

 

[GravyBoat]

As for a solution to this, I think text behind them saying "Ads are how we keep this website free, we don't show pop-ups, please disable your adblocker." would be one solution. Not everyone will disable it, but some will.

At the end of the day, this is all you can honestly ask for. Rep transferred to @cashis for finding the solution.

 

[3things]

I'd take users using adblockers as something of an optimisation challenge in terms of 'how can i monetize those impressions'...something along the lines of detecting blocked ads, and then serving in my own 'ads' in the form of flat images or text with a link [images that are not IAB standard ad dimensions]. afaik if you locally serve in simple html linked images rather than something from a known adserver url you'd get around adblockers. They tend to parse/block lists of known adserver url's, and look for IAB-type dimensions. Avoid those and you should still be able to serve stuff to the blockers.

Something like this, logically:

if > adsblocked then show non-ad-sized image html for your own product > else > display 728x90 ad unit as normal.

Those unmonetized impressions are simply yet another challenge to be overcome, in kind of the same way you'd test ad unit positioning on a page to maximise revenue

 

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[Mbc]

@healthstatus this post does seem out of character for you.

You're seeing this only from your point of view. Imagine if I'm paying you on a CPM basis to show my ads, I actually want people to use adblockers because it filters out the people who won't usually buy anyway. What if I told you you're stealing money from me by charging me views to people you know are very unlikely to buy anything from my ads? Not that I think it's stealing, I'm just saying there's 2 sides to this, 3 sides actually and you're only seeing it from yours.

Right now I have adblocker disabled most of the time because I want to see ads. But before I knew about IM I was just fed up of annoying pop ups and ads that wasted my time. You can't be mad at people because other advertisers pissed them off...well I mean clearly you can but it's not very productive.

I think the best, as others have mentioned, is to just let people know you provide them with free content thanks to ads and ask them to disable the ads. I think 90% of people using adblocker would say "oh gee I didn't know that for sure I want you to get paid" and disable adblocker.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

You're seeing this only from your point of view. Imagine if I'm paying you on a CPM basis to show my ads, I actually want people to use adblockers because it filters out the people who won't usually buy anyway. What if I told you you're stealing money from me by charging me views to people you know are very unlikely to buy anything from my ads? Not that I think it's stealing, I'm just saying there's 2 sides to this, 3 sides actually and you're only seeing it from yours.

Golden. Rep Transferred.

 

[Jimmyy]

People hate ads and many people will never intentionally click on them ever in their life. It's a fact of life and not one worth crying over. Youtube is borderline unusable without an adblocker and with their vids being on almost every site it becomes a pain turning the blocker on and off. If you then make it hard or annoying for people to access your content you'll probably lose the chance to profit from them in other ways. Many people who pirate music instead of paying for it only do so because the official platforms make it a pain the a$$.

Rather than the official sounding notice that might rub people up the wrong way maybe you could apply some of your copy skills. Don't make it feel like you're asking for the sale up front. Sell the value of your site, the extreme costs you've endured, the quality and specificity of the ads provided and how little concern they will be to the user. Probably better asking people to add the domain to the exception list as well rather than have to keep pissing about turning the blocker on or off.

"Thanks for visiting the site! We always strive to create amazing content to give you the best information/experience/whatever. To even just keep the site up and running though we rely on adds. This allows us too keep the site free for all our users! The ads are all related to the content and will never get in the way of your user experience. If you could add our domain to your Ad Blockers exception list or just disable the extension it would be really appreciated and be big thank you to all the guys who work so hard for the site "

vs.

 

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[healthstatus]

People who were never going to buy in the first place are not a lost sale, and it's not theft just because they didn't convert. All you can do is control the experience and make it as frictionless as possible for those that might.

In my case, it is, because you looking at a page using software that blocks my revenue. A person doesn't have to buy on my website to be a conversion, simply show up.

if I'm paying you on a CPM basis to show my ads, I actually want people to use adblockers because it filters out the people who won't usually buy anyway.

Some truth to that, but also MANY cpm ad buys are companies building a brand, ever see a billboard with a hospital ad on it? That isn't going to make you drive immediately to the hospital and have a procedure done, but when you do need a procedure done, they want to be high in your mind. So ads are not all about immediate effect. The ad right now on the forum that I am seeing is about the Keystone Pipeline, they don't want me to buy it, they just want to keep in my mind that Obama is blocking it.

afaik if you locally serve in simple html linked images rather than something from a known adserver url you'd get around adblockers.

No, this came up when I had people look at my test website, there are no ads, not even ad tags in place yet, just a gray image with the dimensions of the ad space on it. Those were even getting removed.

What I do see here is pretty much everybody is giving you advice you don't want.

I love advice, especially good advice, several people in the thread have done that. But most of the people are giving me how to run my business advice when I have asked an ETHICS question. I will know in a week how much revenue is going in the toilet, then I will make an informed business decision.

2 weeks ago, @biophase (thanks for correction) found somebody copying advice and his content from a thread he made about selling soap. The forum lit up, "how dare someone steal someone else's work! We are outraged!" Now I expose people taking content and services and oh well, that is just the cost of doing business and by the way you are doing your business wrong, better change, you pay too much for your server. This is incredibly funny to me. Nobody in the thread has gone, "dude that sucks you might be losing thousands of dollars a month, I wonder how big a problem this is? Here's a post about this on another site I saw". Nope, none of that, I am just a bitter old money grubber with a screwed up business model!!!

 

[snowbank]

JackEdwards

biophase

found somebody copying advice and his content from a thread he made about selling soap

from what i understand they went a lot further than taking advice. they took his specific manufacturer, the same products, and copied his descriptions.

Now I expose people taking content and services

no one took anything from you. you don't hear the guy who invented the rotary phone complaining that people shouldn't be using cell phones because it's costing him money.

i think this is one of those times where a work break would do you good/re-charge you. i mean this respectfully—you don't seem to be thinking clearly.

 

[Coalission]

2 weeks ago, @JackEdwards (pause for heavenly music) found somebody copying advice and his content from a thread he made about selling soap. The forum lit up, "how dare someone steal someone else's work! We are outraged!" Now I expose people taking content and services and oh well, that is just the cost of doing business and by the way you are doing your business wrong, better change, you pay too much for your server. This is incredibly funny to me. Nobody in the thread has gone, "dude that sucks you might be losing thousands of dollars a month, I wonder how big a problem this is? Here's a post about this on another site I saw". Nope, none of that, I am just a bitter old money grubber with a screwed up business model!!!

That's because no one is stealing from you. They are consuming your free content, and you are just upset because your average consumer doesn't know or care how you make money.

 

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[Milkanic]

You are barking up the wrong tree. 99% of this forum "knows how the sausage gets made" and isn't going to click ads.

Only 8% of internet users account for 85% of clicks on display ads (source). Not to mention some of your CPM revenue is probably bots which should be offset by adblocker.

If your business model relies on CPM, you should focus on this 8% and ignore everyone else.

 

[AllenCrawley]

Nobody in the thread has gone, "dude that sucks you might be losing thousands of dollars a month, I wonder how big a problem this is? Here's a post about this on another site I saw". Nope, none of that, I am just a bitter old money grubber with a screwed up business model!!!

Well some of these responses could be because people didn't take to kindly to being called a thieving rat, lol. We're friends and I understand where you're coming from but you pretty much set the tone of this thread from the beginning.

I actually see opportunity here in relation to a fix for site owners like you.

I will point out that I'm very surprised so many people here use adblock. You are all marketers and as such should be watching what other marketers are doing. I admit I was an adblocker but once I understood the value of the ads for myself (not just for the site owner - yep I can be selfish) I disabled the blocker.

I see the majority don't believe this is stealing. If I'm being honest I'm not sure I buy that argument either. I have a hard time connecting the soap thread issue to your issue. Maybe that's flawed thinking, maybe not. Lots of us did call what happen to bio stealing but I wouldn't say it was illegal but I do understand why you would consider it theft.