Why is it OK for you to STEAL from me?

[Berters]

...It costs me over a $1000.00 a month to have a set of servers online 24/7.

Can you get this number down? That seems like far too much!

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[healthstatus]

I went to your site and signed up with my adblocker on.

Yes you are one of the rat bastards individual testers that got me thinking about this.... and really, this is not slam on you, it was just an incidence that got me thinking.

Also, I don't ever buy anything online through ads.

You can't, you block them, you don't know. Something revolutionary that could change your life forever might be the ad queued for your page and you blocked it.
about 10-15% of my ads are for my own products on the site, my apps, most people get to my site looking for health calculators, I advertise my health calculator phone apps, or they are trying to exercise more, I have a product that I advertise on my own site in my ad slots.

So I don't buy this argument. You will never in your life buy anything new, visit a new eatery, or do anything without relying on other people to tell you about it and explain it to you if you really never pay any attention to ads.

 

[healthstatus]

Can you get this number down? That seems like far too much!

really, you can setup redundant load balanced servers with a database backend, development server, email server, backup to support a million visitors a month with extremely reliable internet providers for less than that? Besides, if I have to write a check for $10.00 it is still a cost I have and people aren't willing to pay the simple price of having ads display on the page at the same time they are viewing and using my content.

 

[LibertyForMe]

You can't, you block them, you don't know.

I haven't been blocking them for very long. I went for a looooonnnggg time with no adblocker, because I didn't even know it existed, and in that time I never bought from an ad. You are right in that I cannot predict the future, but I can make an educated guess based on my previous experiences!

I definitely see your point though, if there was a way to block only stuff that meets certain criteria that is the route I would go down. Then I could set my parameters of what I want to block or see. But unfortunately, I don't think that exists, so I will continue to be a thieving rat bastard normal 20-30 year old internet user.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Formless]

I've been adblocker-less for about 2-3 years until my friend showed me the light. I never did buy stuff. I didn't buy the fantastic vodafone contract, nor did I get Ron Jeremy's secret to penis extension, nor did I buy that pimsleur course that guarantees to teach me Cantonese in 10 days - OR MY MONEY BACK, or the countless secrets to getting rich, or that DLL cleaner that will make my computer up to 4x faster, or Mike Chang's shortcut to sixpack abs, or the new World of Tanks game with the 'Chinese tanks' expansion pack, or the buy-one-get-one-free russian wife, or weightloss acai tea, or the single mum's trick to white teeth that dentists around the world hate her for.

This is who I am.

That's not to justify my actions in the moral sense at all.

 

[Coalission]

You take without paying the price of admission, having my ads appear. Isn't that criminal? It is no different than sneaking into a movie and not paying.

Huh? It's very different. I've never used an ad blocker and never will, because I get inspiration from banners and they don't really bother me to begin with, and I've also clicked and bought things that I would have otherwise never known about, but the movie theater charges for admission, and implements some type of deterrents as well (cameras, the person at the front asking for your ticket, etc.) Your website would be more like a movie theater with no sign, no price to get in, just walk right in. Once you leave, one of the employees you didn't see before comes out and scolds you for not stopping to look at all the mini-billboards on the side before just walking to your movie. Sorry, try putting a sign out at the front explaining the way this movie theater is supported and don't assume your average Joe will understand.

Movie theaters are also inherently known to cost money to get into so while the "free" movie theater would be a little strange, a free website would not be. Websites are inherently known to be free for the most part, so people download ad blockers to stop something that's annoying to them, it's certainly not a "crime". Otherwise, every DVR user who fast-forwards through the commercials to consume their free ad-supported content is also a "criminal".

 

[GravyBoat]

Personally I am with @LibertyForMe on this, I have never EVER found any sort of value from an ad. Years and years ago I remember the spammy $#!+ that would pop up on my screen, and I know that it's gotten better over the years, but to this day, I do not enjoy seeing most (if not all) ads. In the rare case that an ad intrigues me enough, I will NOT click on it, but go research what it was saying myself. Yes this is more work, yes this doesn't get anyone paid, but it's better than having to reinstall my OS because of some nasty tracking software installed by clicking. These days you can get a virus from just about anywhere, and it will even do you the favor of downloading itself! Now I'm not saying you have those spammy ads, but I don't even care to know either way.

Honestly I think this delves into a deeper discussion, the element of control in business. To me, this is the same as when a site has worked it's way to the #1 Google spot for a keyword, then Google updates, and it's nowhere to be found. It's the same as when businesses were stocking up on VHS tapes only to have DVD be released weeks later.

Otherwise, every DVR user who fast-forwards through the commercials to consume their free content is also a "criminal".

EDIT: Another example. Ads are now having to be crammed down your throat in order to have the same effect as years ago (just look at Youtube).

I realize that probably hardly any of the population actually uses an ad blocker, but the ones that don't are probably more likely to click on the ad anyway.

But for the sake of trying to give back, I will turn mine off when I visit your site @healthstatus

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[throttleforward]

Just to play devil's advocate @healthstatus , do you or have you ever fast forwarded through commercials on your DVR? If you were at a friend's house, and they were fast forwarding through commercials, would you consider them a freeloader (sure, they might pay for cable, but that cost doesn't cover the actual cost of providing the content and infrastructure)? What if they old-school taped a free over-the-air broadcast, and fast forwarded through those commercials? Do you feel guilty for changing the radio station when commercials are on? Have you ever read a free newspaper and not looked at every page - skipping over the full page ads and only reading the free content?

I believe it's all about reasonable expectations. My belief is that on the internet, once the code leaves your server, you no longer have a reasonable expectation that consumers will consume your content in the way you wish them to. If you wish to charge for your content, you may. If you don't, then users have the right to consume your content as you've delivered it, including without safeguards against ad blocking. You can only expect your consumer to consume your content in the manner you require them to. If you require them to pay, or require them to view various methods of advertising, then that's reasonable and the consumer can choose to consume as you wish or leave.

Another analogy might be movie theaters. It would be well within their right to deny entry to patrons who are not seated by the time the commercials begin playing. But they can't complain that people show up late and don't consume the ads if they don't require them to - it's not reasonable.

 

[Berters]

really, you can setup redundant load balanced servers with a database backend, development server, email server, backup to support a million visitors a month with extremely reliable internet providers for less than that? Besides, if I have to write a check for $10.00 it is still a cost I have and people aren't willing to pay the simple price of having ads display on the page at the same time they are viewing and using my content.

Do you have a custom plan because the largest I can see that Linode offer is 1920GB storage with 20TB bandwidth? Seems quite excessive. I opened a live chat with Rackspace to see what their prices are like but they just pointed me here - http://www.rackspace.com/calculator/

I just couldn't justify in my mind an expense that high for a site that generates revenue from Google Ads. Maybe try the calculator and work out what you really need and see if you can get it down? Just a suggestion, but obviously I don't know the details.

 

[jon.a]

I'm running an ad blocker and a pop up blocker, I think. It's been so long, I don't remember for sure. I installed them to stop pop ups. I really dislike popups. Ads are almost invisible to me.

I revisit sites that provide me value and avoid those that seem to be all about providing income for the site owner.
Until this thread, I just assumed that publishers worked a numbers game and shoot for many visitors to provide some acceptable level of income.
The attitude of the OP struck me as selfish (maybe too strong).

Maybe if I expand this thought to op-tins, I can be a little more clear.
I understand that if I opt-in, I'm adding myself to a sales funnel. And a list that might even be sold to other marketers. If, I find enough value I'll still opt-in. (Bobby Casey's site for example)

If I find a site that makes me feel like my only purpose in life is the provide an income stream for the owner, I'll leave fairly quickly.

I'm not explaining this very well, but I'm finding the OP's attitude disturbing and too self centered. I do applaud you for openly asking the question though.

All that said, I wont bother visiting the site in question. I guess I'm not welcome.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Brander]

So if you use an ad blocker, tell me why it is ok for you to steal.

LOL, great way to poison the well when asking a question.

 

[redshep]

Can't say I agree with the term theft. Someone steals your code, your images, or works around a paywall, that's theft. If you put up ads and they don't work, maybe the market doesn't want them. Doesn't mean they're ingrates, just that they want a different experience.

 

[DavidofMN]

If someone changes the radio station after a song is over because a commercial is on are they stealing? Or they change the channel during a commercial break during a basketball game is that stealing? I think that a definition of stealing needs to be defined before people are called thieving bastards because they use an adblocker.

If you don't want people visiting your site because they have an adblocker put in the code to redirect them and be done with it. You are choosing to put ads on your site and visitors are choosing to come there for the information. They are in it for them. Do you really think that the average internet user cares what it costs you to host that site? No way. It's free to them. They don't care about your ads that make you money. They only care about them.

If you don't want people "stealing" your content don't put it out there.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[AroundTheWorld]

If you are going to be in this game, then know the playing field.
Adblocker exists, and people like it, and people will continue to use it.
There is nothing you can do to change that.


I'm going to force a little commercial break into this thread.
Your regular program "Adblocker" will resume momentarily.

Wow @healthstatus . You do seem really bitter.
It is going to be REALLY difficult for you to get anywhere if you are carrying this with you.

Figure out a way to get rid of that bitterness, STAT. There are threads
on the forum that touch on that issue, along with the issue of anger.

And now, back to your program.

 

[Kak]

I really don't give a crap either way. I don't have an ad blocker. Sometimes I see shit that interests me and I click on it, most of the time I ignore them.

An ad blocker would probably just screw up my computer and make it slower. So I leave it alone. I always keep my computers super lean.

 

[healthstatus]

Do you feel guilty for changing the radio station when commercials are on? Have you ever read a free newspaper and not looked at every page - skipping over the full page ads and only reading the free content?

Radio stations get their revenue not from the number of ads listened to, but by their market share, same with newspapers (but for them it is distribution), and additionally with newspapers, I am consuming the content as they PRESENT it, I don't have a little homeless guy sitting there with scissors cutting out all the ads.

Another analogy might be movie theaters. It would be well within their right to deny entry to patrons who are not seated by the time the commercials begin playing. But they can't complain that people show up late and don't consume the ads if they don't require them to - it's not reasonable.

Movie theaters make their money from selling tickets. Then they said aha! I have a bunch of people here sitting bored, lets show some ads and make some EXTRA money.

but obviously I don't know the details.

No you don't. I have over half a dozen servers doing the work that needs to be done to keep my sites running. And to the point of this thread it doesn't matter if it is $1 or $1,000,000.

Until this thread, I just assumed that publishers worked a numbers game and shoot for many visitors to provide some acceptable level of income.
The attitude of the OP struck me as selfish (maybe too strong).

but people with ad blockers are skewing the numbers, right? isn't the attitude of I don't want to be bothered by ads, but I want all this information so I am going to take the information and not allow the publisher to make any money, selfish?

Can't say I agree with the term theft. Someone steals your code, your images, or works around a paywall, that's theft. If you put up ads and they don't work, maybe the market doesn't want them. Doesn't mean they're ingrates, just that they want a different experience.

If I hop in your car drive around town without your permission, do a bunch of errands and come back and park the car in the same spot, is that theft? You would say sure, you used my tires and gas, you may have created a maintenance issues. Well, you used my bandwidth, my research team, my coders, may have created a maintenance issue and you have purposefully done things to keep me from getting compensated.

You do seem really bitter.
It is going to be REALLY difficult for you to get anywhere if you are carrying this with you.

I am not bitter, have you ever been on a debate team? I am taking a stand, I am looking for someone to convince me on their point of view. If someone took your book and put it up for free somewhere, would you be bitter about that? Your content is in a different form than mine, but it is still my content, you chose to have someone pay up front, I offer to give it to you in exchange for ads on my site.

I think it is going to be hard to go further if it becomes OK with people like the people on this forum that are saying, oh, they stole from you, they don't know better, I wasn't going to click anyway, I don't like those ads, I don't agree with your revenue model...... I mean really, I am really surprised that everyone as business owners and wannabe business owners in this grouped are not up in arms about an attack on someones revenue!

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Runum]

Isn't this part of the commandment of control?

If you don't have enough control of your business model then change the model or the business.

 

[throttleforward]

Nope, I get paid just showing you ads, it is a CPM model, I get paid for a high percentage of the ads I show whether you click or not.

Radio stations get their revenue not from the number of ads listened to, but by their market share, same with newspapers (but for them it is distribution), and additionally with newspapers, I am consuming the content as they PRESENT it,

But don't you get paid through the exact same method? You've offered to your advertisers eyeballs only. Just like newspapers and radio (ears).

 

[snowbank]

This is a really strange post for someone who's been on the forum for so long.

You're offering your customers something they don't want(ads), and some of them are responding to you offering it to them by blocking them.

You just have to calculate what you'll make with ads knowing that x% of your audience will block ads, and decide if you should be focusing your monetization efforts elsewhere.

I have a blog that I don't monetize, so I understand spending a lot of time on something and not making money on it. However, if I offered something and visitors were telling me they didn't want to see something I was offering, I'd figure out what they DID want to see, and give it to them that way.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Coalission]

Movie theaters make their money from selling tickets. Then they said aha! I have a bunch of people here sitting bored, lets show some ads and make some EXTRA money.

Yes but the average consumer doesn't know that, and the results wouldn't be any different if the movie theater operated differently. YOU decided to make a movie theater/website that relies solely on ad revenue, it isn't the consumer's job to study your business model, it is their job to be consumers, and for us as business owners to decide and figure out how to best extract money from them.

 

[Michael W.]

Isn't this part of the commandment of control?

If you don't have enough control of your business model then change the model or the business.

This. It seems he's on a donation based business model. You want to get paid for your information, create a access fee.

 

[Coalission]

But don't you get paid through the exact same method? You've offered to your advertisers eyeballs only. Just like newspapers and radio (ears).

What I'm guessing he means is that he gets paid on a CPM basis, so it is literally tracked down to the visitor how many impressions his ads are getting, while a radio station/newspaper gets paid based on their overall audience size, and the advertiser doesn't know how many people listened to or viewed the ad. So he is right that it actually costs him money.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Oven]

This is definitely an interesting topic, personally I don't use an adblocker because I want to support the people who provide the "free" content I consume but I do see the other side of the argument. A few years ago when I first heard about adblock I installed it, when I started my own site that made money from ads I turned it off right away and haven't used it in years. When I first turned it on, I didn't even understand that people made money from impressions, I was pretty dumb but can you really expect the average consumer to know anything about internet marketing?

A few people in this thread mentioned that they would never click an ad and automatically ignore them anyways. I'm the same way I rarely click on ads and I automatically ignore them. I can say this with complete confidence because when I turned my adblock off I didn't notice a difference at all. It's rare for websites to have popups and the ones that do are generally the low quality ones and if you really hate popups I've heard that adblock has an option in the settings to only turn off popups, so I'd ask you to do that.

On the other hand I think that it's very important for businesses to keep up with the times. If everyone begins to use adblock than your business model becomes outdated. Either figure out a way to battle adblock or change your revenue model. A good example is the movie industry, it's becoming rarer for people to buy movies because it's so easy to pirate them. The movie industry can try to fight this but it's obviously a losing battle. They either need to find a new revenue model or figure out a way to convince consumers to pay for movies. Is it fair that people pirate movies? No, but shit happens.

 

[throttleforward]

What I'm guessing he means is that he gets paid on a CPM basis, so it is literally tracked down to the visitor how many impressions his ads are getting, while a radio station/newspaper gets paid based on their overall audience size, and the advertiser doesn't know how many people listened to or viewed the ad. So he is right that it actually costs him money.

I'm pretty sure Nielson does statistically-justifiable audience size analysis with some pretty good confidence intervals for radio ads. Otherwise an ad at 2am would cost the same as an ad during rush hour.

But the point remains - if I read a free newspaper (like they have here in DC on the Metro), once I pick up that newspaper I have every right to do whatever I want to it, including paying the homeless man to cut out all the ads for me and hand the paper back to me. I am under no obligation to consume the content the way the newspaper or their advertisers would like me to consume the content.

For his site, he is delivering his content for free to me. Assuming I use an ad blocker (which I don't), I then pay the "homeless man" to "cut out the ads" and "return the newspaper" to me. No difference.

 

[jon.a]

I'll take this debate a step future.

Auto dealerships...
When the new models come out is it stealing to just go look at them?
I don't think so.

Is it stealing to take a test drive with no intention of buying?
I do think so.

I don't do either.

Anyway this sounds like chasing money and getting pissed because some of it slipped away.
Every minute spent here name calling is a minute wasted not creating a better net.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[healthstatus]

Isn't this part of the commandment of control?
If you don't have enough control of your business model then change the model or the business.

@Runum I respect a lot of your opinions, but not this one. Should a retailer close their business or change their model because of shoplifters? No, they try and police the shoplifters, how is what I am asking about here any different than that? (this is not a rhetorical question)

This is a really strange post for someone who's been on the forum for so long.

Wow, at this point I would think everybody thought most of my posts were strange. Look, I am trying to stir the pot, get some ideas flowing. A week ago everybody went crazy that somebody copied selling soap on Amazon, and that person was ultimately banned, but cheating someone of ad revenue is ok, no big deal, that person should adjust their revenue strategy. Isn't that even a little bit interesting?

You're offering your customers something they don't want(ads), and some of them are responding to you offering it to them by blocking them.
You just have to calculate what you'll make with ads knowing that x% of your audience will block ads, and decide if you should be focusing your monetization efforts elsewhere.

I am offering exactly what they want, or I wouldn't get the number of visitors I have. What I have is people that knowingly change my content for their own benefit at my expense. Right now, I am not happy with the thought of that.

so it is literally tracked down to the visitor how many impressions his ads are getting, while a radio station/newspaper gets paid based on their overall audience size, and the advertiser doesn't know how many people listened to or viewed the ad.

Yes, I would also add that it doesn't cost the TV/radio station one cent more if you turn the channel during an ad, I have bandwidth costs, database costs, possible maintenance issues.

 

[throttleforward]

I am offering exactly what they want, or I wouldn't get the number of visitors I have. What I have is people that knowingly change my content for their own benefit at my expense. Right now, I am not happy with the thought of that.

Yes, and unlike shoplifting or skirting around DVD copying controls it is not illegal to do so. Until the DCMA is amended to prevent adblocking software, I can't see how you can make comparison.

 

[Runum]

@Runum I respect a lot of your opinions, but not this one. Should a retailer close their business or change their model because of shoplifters? No, they try and police the shoplifters, how is what I am asking about here any different than that? (this is not a rhetorical question)

The retailer doesn't close his business but they do change the way they do business. They may change their displays, entry/exit, positioning of merchandise, location of cash registers, etc. They may also gripe and bitch about it but if they want to stay in business they change the way they do business.

It happens to me but the loss is my time. Potential renters will call and want the whole sales pitch. In the beginning I answered every call. I would spent 10-15 minutes with each caller selling them on renting the property. Most times I did not get a renter from the time I spent on the phone. I had to change my methods and become more efficient.

I coordinated my online ads, my signs, and my voice mail to present all information and weed out the tire kickers. This also pre-qualifies my renters. I changed my model and now I spend very little time selling on the phone to anyone.

I see change as the natural part of doing business.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[RHL]

Already have the code in my arsenal, wanting to hear the opinions to understand why I shouldn't implement.

Because of your high converting offer. If a day-1 65% reduction in traffic sounds cool to you, then by all means do it, but I bet that comes with an attendant reduction in your high converting offer and your bottom line evaporates as well.

As a website owner, I understand your feeling 100% and don't use AB, but also, we're not little babies here on FLF right? Reality check: The number of people using adblock is only going to increase over time. I don't think I know a single 20-something who doesn't use it. If your business relies on that revenue, you need to start planning now or plan to go broke later.

The other option is to establish a friendly rapport with your clients. I know several youtube channels where viewers voluntarily encourage each-other to watch the in-stream ads because they know that's how the guy gets paid. Maybe you can try that with the banner idea.

Also, you can avoid using douchey ads. If your ads forcefully redirect to another page, that's a no go. If they're disguised to look like part of your site's content (a download button, etc) that's a no go. If they change the orientation of the page so that people click them by accident, that's a no-go. Just run normal ads, and as always, don't rely on them as your main source of funding.

You can bounce people with code too, but I wouldn't do it on my website. I think that'd be domain suicide.

 

[healthstatus]

Is it stealing to take a test drive with no intention of buying?
I do think so.

I wouldn't agree with you there. I used to do that in my high school days, and realized I was taking a salesmans time, and they being on straight commission.

Anyway this sounds like chasing money and getting pissed because some of it slipped away.
Every minute spent here name calling is a minute wasted not creating a better net.

You are missing my point. I am not chasing money, I am extremely blessed by the revenue of my site. I am in business, and as a business person I want to do everything well. So I make something great (IMO) and lots of people come and see it, then some purposefully deny me my income for that effort but consume it anyway. How is that fair? How is your position as an ad blocker any different the position of the Occupy Wall Street group? (i.e. pay off my student loans, take from the rich so I can have free)

No difference.

Big difference, when you come to my site you are using up my resources. Once you pick up the paper you are using your resources, on my site you are using mine.