Why copywriting is a bunch of Bull$h^t and you shouldn't learn it...

[Deleted35442]

The point of those threads is that you can get started doing "something". They are geared towards people who are at the beginning of their entrepreneurial journey. 50K/year is just an arbitrary number. What if it was 50K/month? Would that make it more "entrepreneurial"?

Not to mention, that you could say the same thing about any specific skill set.

Programming
PPC Advertising
Writing Sales Copy
Facebook
Amazon
Building a Website
Branding
Sourcing products

You don't need to learn any of those things to be an entrepreneur.

And yet the irony is that there are people who have made millions by having laser focus in each of these areas.

The tool is NEVER the issue. It's the person wielding the tool!

This is bullshit. I like how you carefully mischaracterized what I said. Doing "something"? "Something" definitely sounds Slowlane, and the thread I was referring to was Slowlane, advocating people to spend all their time on sales copy to GET HIRED on Freelance websites (not to mention the time drain writing and applying to them).

If you want "something" get a job. Are you dense? $50k a year is not an arbitrary number. Show me who makes $50k a month writing other peoples shit on Freelance websites. Go make $50k a month on a Freelance site of your choosing and report back, champ. End of.

 

[Alan LT]

I'll add my two cents. If you're not good at copywriting, instead of spending 6 months learning it, HIRE SOMEONE TO DO IT FOR YOU.

A lot of people are cheap and want to cut cost. They have no clue how much they're hurting their time and business.

 

[The Grind]

Go read a website and sales page built by someone who doesn't know how to write copy...

I'd rather be in a sequel of Children Of The Corn and get tortured by 8 year olds with pitch forks for 3.5 years while sitting on a hot plate...

...that's turned up all the way!

Too much?

 

[Formless]

Ill never understand the obsession a lot of millennials seem to have with DJ Khaled

We Millenials, unlike all other generations (apparently), like to laugh.

[HASHTAG]#IHateMyGeneration[/HASHTAG]

/sarcasm



But since I'm trolling, I'll make a meaningful remark.

When Andrew says "Copywriting is a bunch of bullshit." (I'm pretty sure) he doesn't mean the dictionary definition of 'copywriting.' Just the F*ckery commonly associated with people who live in the "copywriting is everything, Halbert is lord" bubble. If you don't take the headline personally, it's pretty obvious what Andrew means.

 

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[Charnell]

Ill never understand the obsession a lot of millennials seem to have with DJ Khaled

Probably in the same way that people on this forum have an obsession with whether something is slowlane of fastlane.

He has catchphrases, and whether anyone wants to admit it or not is a pretty major influencer in hip-hop and the music industry as a whole. He's the equivalent to Gary V, MJ, Grant Cardone, Tai Lopez, Neil Patel, etc. for the crowd he's in. I'm not comparing him directly to those I just named, but how people on this forum (entrepreneurs) will say things are fast or slowlane or whatever, people that follow DJ Khaled will say things like "you played yourself" and "bless up".

It's not that hard to understand the obsession.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

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[lowtek]

This contradicts just about everything you preached in your book. I don't like inconsistencies. I still maintain working for someone at 17 and learning an industry is far more valuable than hunting for copy jobs on Freelance sites. Can't emphasize enough the number of Entrepreneurs that find a problem by working at a job and then recognizing they can do it better. I don't know what your angle is but I'm losing respect for you by the day with what I'm reading.

How is working as a freelancer not the same as working for someone else? What, do you think you're being paid by magical fairies who just produce money out of thin air? You're working to solve the problems of a business. This can lead to insights into deficiencies in their business model, and allow you to leverage your skills to compete with them head on.

And also, you want to jump on MJ for his decision to mark gold a thread that provided enormous value for this community? What are you on dude?

I sense an impending ban hammer

 

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[Raoul Duke]

This contradicts just about everything you preached in your book. I don't like inconsistencies. I still maintain working for someone at 17 and learning an industry is far more valuable than hunting for copy jobs on Freelance sites. Can't emphasize enough the number of Entrepreneurs that find a problem by working at a job and then recognizing they can do it better. I don't know what your angle is but I'm losing respect for you by the day with what I'm reading.

 

[Maxjohan]

I don't know what your angle is but I'm losing respect for you by the day with what I'm reading.

Dude. Why don't you ask him what his angle is, instead of riding on the high horse and coming with remarks like this. ??

 

[marklov]

1 year to learn decent copy or
1 month to get decent on the phone....

Cold Calling FTW.

I believe many people learning copy are just hopping
on a bandwagon because it's the "in-thing" and not because it will play a significant
part in their success to the fastlane which is different from chasing shiny objects.

 

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[The-J]

An Ivy League investment banker shitting on the Slowlane.... lol

 

[MikeC]

Andrew you the man. But I couldn't disagree more with your title.

Copywriting is maybe THE most essential skill any individual who wants to succeed in life should learn.

It is NOT something that can be learned overnight. Would you expect a pianist to thrill a sold out crowd at Carnegie Hall after six months? No, you'd expect them to totally suck. So your friend's writing doesn't surprise me.

It's a very common copywriting mistake to copy the WORDS of the great writers, instead of the IDEAS that spawned them. A great copywriter understands that "Dear Friend" is a salutation, and will use that IDEA to spawn what they will write in their letter, tailored to their reader.

Copywriting isn't about the writing... it's salesmanship in print. Your friend would totally fail an in person meeting with the CEO's he's contacting, I'm sure of it. He doesn't have a clue who he's talking to. And that's rule #1 of writing copy.

What SHOULD be discouraged is the mindset that someone can learn copy overnight. Or in six months. Or five years. I see this all the time as a musician. People think they can just pick up an instrument and learn it. You can do that, after you've already totally mastered the process for learning ONE instrument, which will take—at minimum—10 years of HARD, dedicated, passionate practice.

Copywriting is sales, marketing and media all in one. To truly master it requires an insane amount direct, in-the-field, SELLING experience. Not to mention the balls of putting YOUR IDEAS on the line when real dollars are at stake. Over and over again. It's a field that guarantees crashing and burning. And for the people who can't even practice scales on a guitar, or master the basics of an Adobe product, or put the most basic product to market, copywriting is not a skill that will magically come. But I also doubt they'll ever truly invest BLOOD EQUITY in the Fastlane to begin with.

 

[Deleted35442]

Lol.

 

[Growth & Learn]

Now see what a difference a respectful tone can make

The thing is that no one of the great contributors on here recommended to do copywriting as a job or as a business. Usually copywriting is mentioned as a great skill that will help you a lot in marketing your product and business.

Can't remember one post by MJ, SinisterLex or any other long time member on here that recommends copywriting as something else than a useful skill..

Exactly...but the kid doesn't read well.

 

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[OVOvince]

interesting OP. any links or general direction on where to learn persuasive writing?


btw nice shit storm in here

 

[AndrewNC]

any links or general direction on where to learn persuasive writing?

I wrote an article about this a few months ago.

Metaphors are a powerful way to connect with your audience - http://limitlessceo.com/connect-with-your-audience-better-and-close-more-sales-using-metaphors/

And nested loops keep your audience engaged from start to finish:
http://limitlessceo.com/using-nested-loops-to-keep-your-audience-engaged/

I started learning this through a 4 day training from http://nlp.com/ - they go to different cities throughout the year.

 

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[AndrewNC]

interesting OP. any links or general direction on where to learn persuasive writing?


btw nice shit storm in here

Oh, and here is another reference that someone posted on here a while back....

http://www.designthroughstorytelling.net/periodic/

 

[OVOvince]

appreciate it sir

 

[StevieB]

I agree that some copy is now filtered as 'spam speak'. Which is typically a copied version of copy. It's basically a template and people start seeing it as spam. MJ posted an example of this in his 'boiler plate' pitches thread.

I think that copy can be useful but to learn it as a skill and be knowledgeable in how to apply it, not just reading a bunch of material and copying what other's have done word for word practically. Just searching through this forum is an example. I have looked at threads that the content of the initial post was almost the same but the way it was stated and the title varied greatly. One got much more responses than the other.

 

[Deleted35442]

First off, chill the F*ck out!

Secondly, it is geared towards people who are Slowlane but want to get out of it.

Everyone has to start somewhere. Some people need that 50K to get started in business or to make the move to the Fastlane.

Lastly, I don't do freelance work. So, I have no idea if people can make 50K/month on free lance sites or not. However, that's not the point.

What I do know is that there are "copywriters" that have made hundreds of millions of dollars for themselves and their partners. And they didnt wake up one day and know how to write copy.

So, put that in your pipe and smoke it, Champ!

I have better things in my pipe than this shit.

The thread was Slowlane and suggested applying for Freelance jobs. But you've long derailed actually wanting to accurately cite the context you're referring to. If you start somewhere that isn't a business: Get a job. A thread marked Gold advocating for people to go out hunting down sales copy jobs on Freelance websites is just wasteful. You'd be better off getting a job at someone elses startup writing copy if you want to "Start somewhere" and at least you'd be more reputable having that experience if you're raising funding later on from VCs than "Oh, hustled on eLance for copy jobs"

For someone that doesn't do Freelance work, you sure have some chip on your shoulder about my comments on what I perceive to be a useless/backwards thread for a forum of budding entrepreneurs. The copywriters you refer to weren't on Freelance websites, that I promise you.

 

[Deleted35442]

You can go from being a freelancer to offering a productized service.

https://casjam.com/why-productized-service/
http://wpcurve.com/productized-service/

You can also go from a job to a productized service. Except a job requires less effort than applying to new Freelance jobs just to get workflow. Waste of time and serves no place in this Forum. You go write copy for someone else's business. I'll run my own.

If you want to be Slowlane - Get a job. This "Gold" marked thread and 'learning' copy is just asinine.

 

[Growth & Learn]

THIS.

Copywriting isn't about using "dear friend" or copying tactics you saw someone in the past use, it's about writing a message to a person. No good copywriter would have written a letter like your friend did. Unfortunately reading and copying copy doesn't make you a copywriter

Exactly.

 

[Shades]

Ill never understand the obsession a lot of millennials seem to have with DJ Khaled

 

[Shades]

We Millenials, unlike all other generations (apparently), like to laugh.

[HASHTAG]#IHateMyGeneration[/HASHTAG]

/sarcasm



But since I'm trolling, I'll make a meaningful remark.

When Andrew says "Copywriting is a bunch of bullshit." (I'm pretty sure) he doesn't mean the dictionary definition of 'copywriting.' Just the F*ckery commonly associated with people who live in the "copywriting is everything, Halbert is lord" bubble. If you don't take the headline personally, it's pretty obvious what Andrew means.

I am a millennial, and I still dont get it. I agree with the last part tho.

 

[Deleted35442]

Wow, I had no idea you were so butthurt over that GOLD thread, a thread which I marked GOLD.

I would go into detail about WHY it was marked GOLD but what's the point, you've made up your mind that any Slowlane or "trade for time" endeavor is one gigantic waste of time, even if you're 17 years old with zero skills, zero money, and zero experience.

This contradicts just about everything you preached in your book. I don't like inconsistencies. I still maintain working for someone at 17 and learning an industry is far more valuable than hunting for copy jobs on Freelance sites. Can't emphasize enough the number of Entrepreneurs that find a problem by working at a job and then recognizing they can do it better. I don't know what your angle is but I'm losing respect for you by the day with what I'm reading.

 

[Maxjohan]

I believe many people learning copy are just hopping
on a bandwagon because it's the "in-thing" and not because it will play a significant
part in their success to the fastlane which is different from chasing shiny objects.

I think the best form of Copy is showing your personality and being awesome. One of my favorite sites doing this is LingsCars.com. I really like their approach.

I also remember reading many years ago. Someone who was fed up with salesy/hype online copy and sales web sites. She thought the message should use... humor, intellectual and educational.

It still stuck with me. I think for sure. Those are powerful ingredients if you combine them. If you are going to sell something online.

 

[Deleted35442]

An Ivy League investment banker shitting on the Slowlane.... lol

I-Banking is indisputably shit. It's after 2-3 years you can leave with clients and resources to carve out a hedge fund or other endeavor with credibility in the finance world. I obviously didn't go this route but I'd take it any day over half-assing Freelance copy jobs.

@Supa Yes I did. If I could go back in time I wouldn't have left my job, and no promise of learning copy and applying to endless Freelance copy jobs would change that. @relentlessaction works and has a booming eCommerce biz on the side. This 9-5 you're vilifying only inhibits you as much as you let it. When I was at a 9-5 I was able to blow through work and piss about on whatever else it was I wanted to do. I'd go so far as to say if you're a gifted multitasker you could work while building the business hiring a virtual receptionist to field any calls while working your 9-5. And you get benefits and reliable workflow consistency.

I digress. @MJ DeMarco wrote a great book, it inspired me and many others undeniably. But if I was 17, I'd get a job over this. You can argue semantics all you like. This just doesn't add up to what you promoted in your book. If you're so pro-Fastlane in your book why not inspire all 17 year olds to be this guy rather than compete with a million randos in third world countries for copy jobs?

Copy sucks. Don't learn it. Don't work for others doing it. Am with OP on this.

 

[Digamma]

Shitty copywriters and people who know nothing about copywriting THINK that copywriting sounds like "spammy BS that will ring the BS alarm in peoples heads".

If copywriting sounds spammy or bs. Then the person who wrote that, is NOT copywriter, they're a wanna be copywriter. Which is why their copy sucks shit.

People who write that spammy nonsense think that "1 simple trick to get rich" is effective copy. And there's so much of that, people think that's what copy is...

Go read the rolls royce ad... you can't tell it's copy, it doesn't have an ounce of "spammyness" or "BS".

P.S. If you don't know what the rolls royce ad is... then you have no business commenting on anything related to copywriting. Because there's only 1 rolls ad that should pop in your head.

P.P.S Have a nice day.

You are perfectly right.

I think this was the point @AndrewNC was trying to make: beware "authorities" who write and teach you to write like a Buzzfeed headline.

In fact, he wrote:

Yes, I am not arguing that the principles behind the sales psychology work - they do.... and you can learn those very quickly. (but not always in the internet marketing spammy way).

 

[Deleted35442]

Copywriting has made my companies over a $1,000,000 in the last 5 years.

But you're right it's worthless.

A mil over 5 years. If I was still in banking I'd have surpassed this in salary alone easy. No, I'd have probably left after 3 and started a multimillion dollar macro fund while your "companies" are hustling for just over $200k a year. You've blown what I said out of proportion. "learning copy" is learning writing essentially. People on these forums should be hiring from the Freelance market for their copy, not encouraging people to work for them as @SinisterLex has been doing.

@Supa. The hours make banking shit. The work, while redundant at times, is far from "boring" I promise you. You've been spending too much time making other people rich writing their copy obviously.

Hard to accept that mental masturbation is prized above realism and actually building companies here. See you guys on eLance when I need somebody to write my copy. Back to work.

 

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[Shades]

Shitty copywriters and people who know nothing about copywriting THINK that copywriting sounds like "spammy BS that will ring the BS alarm in peoples heads".

If copywriting sounds spammy or bs. Then the person who wrote that, is NOT copywriter, they're a wanna be copywriter. Which is why their copy sucks shit.

People who write that spammy nonsense think that "1 simple trick to get rich" is effective copy. And there's so much of that, people think that's what copy is...

Go read the rolls royce ad... you can't tell it's copy, it doesn't have an ounce of "spammyness" or "BS".

P.S. If you don't know what the rolls royce ad is... then you have no business commenting on anything related to copywriting. Because there's only 1 rolls ad that should pop in your head.

P.P.S Have a nice day.

Yeesh, you had to bring out the P.S. and P.P.S. trick in a post? Did you just get done with Cashvertising?

 

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[csalvato]

@Cyriex makes some great points...but after reflecting on them, I don't really think they are sound or valid. I would post why, but I have a feeling that would just make him angry, and not really result in a meaningful discussion.

@csalvato Radical transparency is great. My points are valid since they assault the simple fact that this Freelance lifestyle is being glorified as Fastlane. Everything Demarco said here contradicts what's in his book which is very disappointing.

Case in point.