Why copywriting is a bunch of Bull$h^t and you shouldn't learn it...

[Supa]

While I don't agree with all of Cyriex points and his brash tone might offend some, copywriting is obviously one of the in things now around here and he is stepping on a lot of toes of those hanging on to copywriting with nothing else as the beginning of their journey to the fastlane.

What if he had said learning to program apps is a waste of time when apps were the in thing.....oh wait maybe somebody did

The bandwagon behavior is bit too strong with everyone wailing on the guy.....

Elance/upwork or whatever wont make you rich but at least for a few months can give you some well needed experience but if you are stuck in "have to start small mode" whoring yourself out on the freelance site wont do you any good either and some get caught up in that cycle for years justifying why they should wait until next year but next year never comes.........

If there is any position you really want to be in as a freelancer by reference of ogilvy who was used as an example in this thread, is getting on with a company that recognizes the usefulness of selling by print, these are the companies that can pay you 70k-100k salary with benefits like seeing the process behind bringing a product to market, fulfillment and other fine nuances...

Where you can also work from home but these jobs are often few and far between because the companies or rather individuals that offer these positions have wagered their own "pound of flesh" in the game and know the vaule of the skill, good luck finding that on upwork or wherever where you must not only do work for menial amounts but also work with persons where the most they have done so far is get a logo off fiver then waiting on you to do the rest.

It's a night and day difference working with clients who "get it" and those clueless you have to educate as to the "whys" of what is needed to be done.

Lastly im surprised by all the guys quoting up how much millions copywriters made, I thought event glorifying was supposed to be....

Now see what a difference a respectful tone can make

The thing is that no one of the great contributors on here recommended to do copywriting as a job or as a business. Usually copywriting is mentioned as a great skill that will help you a lot in marketing your product and business.

Can't remember one post by MJ, SinisterLex or any other long time member on here that recommends copywriting as something else than a useful skill..

 

[MJ DeMarco]

But how dare I tell these 17 year olds to get a job.

 

[Webebe]

It is like the comparision "who you are" and "what you do".
An alpha male gets women, the others try to learn pickup lines.
Entrepreneurs help, others learn to sell.

 

[Formless]

*"Congratulations, you played yourself."

-- DJ Khaled

 

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[MitchC]

*"Congratulations, you played yourself."

-- DJ Khaled

 

[BaraQueenbee]

[HASHTAG]#ignoredforever[/HASHTAG] good luck in your pursuits.

Not a landfill, but is there a [HASHTAG]#someone[/HASHTAG] please throw this person of this forum hashtag?


OR. Let's all ignore, and continue with this super good point Andrew made.

Andrew and Andy both expressed really well that passion is felt through everything. The words, the way you market, what you do.
Once you experience that for the first time, you're like: WOW! Like a chain and snowball getting more and more movement, and more and more come on your path and then you realize that is what defines happiness.

now I may completely derailed but I feel we need to get back on track with the great origin of this post. I wish y'all a great evening!

 

[BaraQueenbee]

Picks mic back up, hands it to you, so you can go sing!

Well played Andrew, well played <3 <3 <3

 

[Selfy]

From this forum, I turned into the fiction writer path, so I hang out with writers, the majority of which are freelancers. I could never understand why these types would write these articles for other people instead of building the niche-site on their own. But on the upside, they are paid ok, and have enough work to go around. Me on the other hand, as an author, own my product, along with the risky downside if my story tanks either to a multitude of things.. but I can also hit binggo. There is a balance.

If you're heading down the writer's path then choose wisely: freelancer or author or outsourcer.

Either way, they are all entrepreneurs. There is no such thing as a "pure" entrepreneur (whatever 'pure' means) in the publishing business -- it's all inclusive-- down to the editor flagging her services on fiverr to the craft book hawkers to the ghost writer on jobsites needing practice. As O'Leary says on sharktank, "there is no balance in this life."

 

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[Raoul Duke]

This needed to be written. Thank you. There are actually gold threads marked on adopting "sales copy skill" if you can even call it that; to make a lofty $50k a year. This sort of talk belongs in a Freelancer community, not an Entrepreneur forum.

If you write such great sales copy: get a product, brand it, market, scale, profit. Next.

The point of those threads is that you can get started doing "something". They are geared towards people who are at the beginning of their entrepreneurial journey. 50K/year is just an arbitrary number. What if it was 50K/month? Would that make it more "entrepreneurial"?

Not to mention, that you could say the same thing about any specific skill set.

Programming
PPC Advertising
Writing Sales Copy
Facebook
Amazon
Building a Website
Branding
Sourcing products

You don't need to learn any of those things to be an entrepreneur.

And yet the irony is that there are people who have made millions by having laser focus in each of these areas.

The tool is NEVER the issue. It's the person wielding the tool!

This is bullshit. I like how you carefully mischaracterized what I said. Doing "something"? "Something" definitely sounds Slowlane, and the thread I was referring to was Slowlane, advocating people to spend all their time on sales copy to GET HIRED on Freelance websites (not to mention the time drain writing and applying to them).

If you want "something" get a job. Are you dense? $50k a year is not an arbitrary number. Show me who makes $50k a month writing other peoples shit on Freelance websites. Go make $50k a month on a Freelance site of your choosing and report back, champ. End of.

First off, chill the F*ck out!

Secondly, it is geared towards people who are Slowlane but want to get out of it.

Everyone has to start somewhere. Some people need that 50K to get started in business or to make the move to the Fastlane.

Lastly, I don't do freelance work. So, I have no idea if people can make 50K/month on free lance sites or not. However, that's not the point.

What I do know is that there are "copywriters" that have made hundreds of millions of dollars for themselves and their partners. And they didnt wake up one day and know how to write copy.

So, put that in your pipe and smoke it, Champ!

I have better things in my pipe than this shit.

The thread was Slowlane and suggested applying for Freelance jobs. But you've long derailed actually wanting to accurately cite the context you're referring to. If you start somewhere that isn't a business: Get a job. A thread marked Gold advocating for people to go out hunting down sales copy jobs on Freelance websites is just wasteful. You'd be better off getting a job at someone elses startup writing copy if you want to "Start somewhere" and at least you'd be more reputable having that experience if you're raising funding later on from VCs than "Oh, hustled on eLance for copy jobs"

For someone that doesn't do Freelance work, you sure have some chip on your shoulder about my comments on what I perceive to be a useless/backwards thread for a forum of budding entrepreneurs. The copywriters you refer to weren't on Freelance websites, that I promise you.

You can go from being a freelancer to offering a productized service.

https://casjam.com/why-productized-service/
http://wpcurve.com/productized-service/

 

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[Shades]

Isnt copy shifting away a bit from the BS at this point? Just talk like a normal person. You can still incite a emotional response without the typical spam copy like "with just one simple secret". Im sure there are people that fall for that stuff still. But I think more and more people see right through all that junk for what it is, spam speech. Makes the bullshit alarm ring in your head. If I see people writing in that manner about a product it devalues the product to me. I think its more likely they are selling a shitty product with "fancy" copy.

Have a good valuable product. Convey your message by speaking like a normal human and not a internet used car salesman.

 

[AndrewNC]

You can still incite a emotional response without the typical spam copy like "with just one simple secret".

There's plenty of emotion built up in this thread since I first posted it

 

[Growth & Learn]

Great copywriting techniques are simply tools for getting your message across. It doesn't need to be done in a douchey way. Most people do it in a used car salesmen way but they miss the point. It's an art form and a study of the human psyche on the highest level.

If copywriting doesn't work then I've got a big pile of money to give back. I also have thousands of customers just by luck.

I'll also tell my employees, contractors they no longer have a job because it's just not working.

I should also add that from my personal experience...the ROI on the time I've spent learning how to sell has been incredibly fast lane.

 

[SweetTooth]

@AndrewNC This is equivalent to saying "I was at a steakhouse and I told the chef I wanted a steak. He said okay. I expected a juicy, pristine, intelligently-seasoned and lusciously rare-cooked steak. But I was shocked at what he served me. It was a mediocre, plainly seasoned and well-done steak. What are chefs and steak even good for if they aren't even delicious 100% of the time? This is proof this world doesn't need chefs or steaks!!!"

P.S. If you took the time to learn copywriting, you wouldn't have had to give up the control of hiring a third-class copywriter to do your emails for you. "Well done, you played yourself." - DJ Khaled

 

[Supa]

This contradicts just about everything you preached in your book. I don't like inconsistencies. I still maintain working for someone at 17 and learning an industry is far more valuable than hunting for copy jobs on Freelance sites. Can't emphasize enough the number of Entrepreneurs that find a problem by working at a job and then recognizing they can do it better. I don't know what your angle is but I'm losing respect for you by the day with what I'm reading.

Did you think about the possiblity of people wanting to do freelance jobs to escape 9-5 jobs, to support their Fastlane endeavours? That can be just another way of hustling on the side to finance your own business, or to learn copy while doing it with real life examples and help someone else at the same time.

You're disrespectful towards the man who changed the lifes of most on us on here, just because you THINK a thread that teaches people on here a lot of good lessons in many things (helping others, marketing skills, etc.) doesn't deserve a GOLD tag, because in your opinion it is Slowlane-ish?! What is Slowlane-ish in helping others and improving your skills? Just because someone works a job or does freelance jobs while building his Fastlane business, to finance this business, doesn't mean it is Slowlane.

 

[Supa]

I-Banking is indisputably shit. It's after 2-3 years you can leave with clients and resources to carve out a hedge fund or other endeavor with credibility in the finance world. I obviously didn't go this route but I'd take it any day over half-assing Freelance copy jobs.

@Supa Yes I did. If I could go back in time I wouldn't have left my job, and no promise of learning copy and applying to endless Freelance copy jobs would change that. @relentlessaction works and has a booming eCommerce biz on the side. This 9-5 you're vilifying only inhibits you as much as you let it. When I was at a 9-5 I was able to blow through work and piss about on whatever else it was I wanted to do. I'd go so far as to say if you're a gifted multitasker you could work while building the business hiring a virtual receptionist to field any calls while working your 9-5. And you get benefits and reliable workflow consistency.

I digress. @MJ DeMarco wrote a great book, it inspired me and many others undeniably. But if I was 17, I'd get a job over this. You can argue semantics all you like. This just doesn't add up to what you promoted in your book. If you're so pro-Fastlane in your book why not inspire all 17 year olds to be this guy rather than compete with a million randos in third world countries for copy jobs?

Copy sucks. Don't learn it. Don't work for others doing it. Am with OP on this.

I think you completely missed the point that @AndrewNC wanted to make in this thread.. For me he wasn't going against the act of copywriting, but against bad and nonsense copywriting.

If it's your opinion that you'd rather work a 9-5 doing some boring work for someone else, instead of replacing that 9-5 with something that can get you some experience in helping others and writing good copy, then that's your opinion. No reason to attack MJ or any other member on here because of that.

 

[Growth & Learn]

Copywriting has made my companies over a $1,000,000 in the last 5 years.

But you're right it's worthless.

 

[csalvato]

@Cyriex I would ask you to consider people who learned copy and started multi-billion copy businesses.

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ogilvy_(businessman)

That sort of thing just isn't possible unless you have a job or freelancing background where you learn those skills really well. Using the Ogilvy example, he worked at Gallup for 10 years to learn how to do market research to write amazing copy.

There's a ton of reasons why learning any skill is wortwhile as you go through the fastlane process. It's very easy to say "I would rather start a company where my profits are $1MM/year then invest that at 5% for 50k of free passive money a year!" But how do you GET to that point without making yourself valuable or learning skills?

 

[BlakeIC]

A mil over 5 years. If I was still in banking I'd have surpassed this in salary alone easy. No, I'd have probably left after 3 and started a multimillion dollar macro fund while your "companies" are hustling for just over $200k a year. You've blown what I said out of proportion. "learning copy" is learning writing essentially. People on these forums should be hiring from the Freelance market for their copy, not encouraging people to work for them as @SinisterLex has been doing.

@Supa. The hours make banking shit. The work, while redundant at times, is far from "boring" I promise you. You've been spending too much time making other people rich writing their copy obviously.

Hard to accept that mental masturbation is prized above realism and actually building companies here. See you guys on eLance when I need somebody to write my copy. Back to work.

Tired of constantly seeing you acting like a parasite

Ignore list you go

 

[amp0193]

Going forward - I feel that I'm going deeper into the phase of - telling stories and creating that positive emotional experience for people - so I am always the positive energy that sticks out during their day.

Thanks for giving me something to think about. My self-esteem is very high, and I generally think very positive of myself and my life. However, when I communicate with people, I'm not always the most positive person and come off kind of sarcastic, etc. I think this is an area I can work on for sure.

I was a private vendor show event last week, and this dude who had just moved into town walked into the hotel. For an hour, he went around and chatted up the company owners behind each booth, with a laugh and a smile on his face. He didn't know anyone, didn't know anything about the event, and wasn't looking to get anything from anyone, but that didn't matter. He ended his conversation with me with a "if there's ever any way I can help you out, just let me know", but there was such sincerity in this statement that I knew he meant it. Some people just have you smiling as soon as they start talking... it's amazing, really.

For business relationships - I'm going in to build deeper relationships and make friends (even with customers - which I do that anyway -I don't even view my customers as customers).

I accomplish this by listening, really listening, to the underlying concern in the customer emails that get sent to me. They don't really care that the product arrived damaged, or that there was some sort of mixup. They just want me as the business owner to feel sympathy for their personal situation, and show a genuine care in making it up to them. People want attention, and they want to feel important.

 

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[Delmania]

I should also add that from my personal experience...the ROI on the time I've spent learning how to sell has been incredibly fast lane.

The bold part is a realization I had. Learning to write sales copy will teach you how to market, which is something any entrepreneur will need to do. It will also teach you a valuable skill, if you have nothing.

 

[Raoul Duke]

I-Banking is indisputably shit. It's after 2-3 years you can leave with clients and resources to carve out a hedge fund or other endeavor with credibility in the finance world. I obviously didn't go this route but I'd take it any day over half-assing Freelance copy jobs.

@Supa Yes I did. If I could go back in time I wouldn't have left my job, and no promise of learning copy and applying to endless Freelance copy jobs would change that. @relentlessaction works and has a booming eCommerce biz on the side. This 9-5 you're vilifying only inhibits you as much as you let it. When I was at a 9-5 I was able to blow through work and piss about on whatever else it was I wanted to do. I'd go so far as to say if you're a gifted multitasker you could work while building the business hiring a virtual receptionist to field any calls while working your 9-5. And you get benefits and reliable workflow consistency.

I digress. @MJ DeMarco wrote a great book, it inspired me and many others undeniably. But if I was 17, I'd get a job over this. You can argue semantics all you like. This just doesn't add up to what you promoted in your book. If you're so pro-Fastlane in your book why not inspire all 17 year olds to be this guy rather than compete with a million randos in third world countries for copy jobs?

Copy sucks. Don't learn it. Don't work for others doing it. Am with OP on this.

“A key point to bear in mind: The value of attentiveness varies in proportion to its object. You’re better off not giving the small things more time than they deserve.” — Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

 

[Growth & Learn]

A mil over 5 years. If I was still in banking I'd have surpassed this in salary alone easy. No, I'd have probably left after 3 and started a multimillion dollar macro fund while your "companies" are hustling for just over $200k a year. You've blown what I said out of proportion. "learning copy" is learning writing essentially. People on these forums should be hiring from the Freelance market for their copy, not encouraging people to work for them as @SinisterLex has been doing.

@Supa. The hours make banking shit. The work, while redundant at times, is far from "boring" I promise you. You've been spending too much time making other people rich writing their copy obviously.

Hard to accept that mental masturbation is prized above realism and actually building companies here. See you guys on eLance when I need somebody to write my copy. Back to work.

And if I was ___ I would have ____. Shoulda coulda woulda?

Don't make the false assumption that our revenues were only $1,000,000. That # is just specific to income generation from sales pages that had copywriting.

You're kind of an aggressive and argumentative one aren't ya.

Yeah you should get back to work. Lmao.

 

[Member]

I love how this forum is willing to call each other (correctly or incorrectly) on what they perceive as BS. Tough love! We are all better because of the fighting spirit everyone has.

I think of copywriting as the cornerstone of business. Knowing what sells helps you develop your product. Knowing what you would like to be able to say to your customers helps you make product development decisions, e.g. they won't care about this, but they will care about this.

If you don't have a good understanding of people you're going to build products that no one wants.

Copywriting is mostly about understanding people, it's not about techniques and tricks. Techniques and tricks will always be cyclical as people catch on to them (or as the FCC bans them...).

New and old, the techniques will always push the same core emotional triggers that humanity has had for thousands of years, and it's those emotional triggers that people should understand if they want to find things people are dying to have.

On the topic of the copywriting threads, my take is that they have all been phenomenal.

They are all about creating value, self starting, and making opportunity for yourself. Gold threads.

 

[csalvato]

Go read the rolls royce ad... you can't tell it's copy, it doesn't have an ounce of "spammyness" or "BS".

TIL about an awesome piece of copy and a name I should have known wayyyy before Gary Halbert's.

 

[Deleted35442]

This had me dying: A mil over 5 years. If I was still in banking I'd have surpassed this in salary alone easy. No, I'd have probably left after 3 and started a multimillion dollar macro fund while your "companies" are hustling for just over $200k a year.

Ok Bro.

Who's to say that there is any one way to go about being an entrepreneur?

I read through your introduction thread (https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/co...n-in-nyc-and-read-mjs-book.63583/#post-495558) that was posted 4 and a half months ago and I really dont think you would "have surpassed this in salary alone easy".

To be honest with the tone and attitude you display through your posts and introduction thread I think you have alot of personal development to do before ever even getting close to achieving any level of success.. but who cares what I think right?

"I bombed my last semester at college yet took the job anyways, they never knew and never found out. I let myself get fired"

" I'd show up late, I disrespected my boss (a real F*ckface anyhow), and started walking out of his office mid-meetings amid tensions. I desperately started interviewing again via phone and in-person. I wanted to get back on Wall Street even if I had to build my way up via mid/back office. That didn't happen, I was fired before it did"

"Hard to accept that mental masturbation is prized above realism and actually building companies here. See you guys on eLance when I need somebody to write my copy."

The way you speak is as though you already know what you're doing and that it's beneath you to learn essential skills that make a true entrepreneur. You seem to think that you obviously cant be a freelancer to be an entrepreneur because you're working for other people and thats not entrepreneur... But there are so many ways to spin copywriting into a business and make millions copywriting.. Dan kennedy, John Carlton, Gary Halbert.

I just came in here to say copywriting isnt bull shit, you should understand it and what makes it good, and shit you might even want to do it as a freelance gig to develop the skill. You can also get a job working for someone who does what you want to do, either way there's no one way to be an entrepreneur. You define your own path.

Oh, and just to put you to sleep.

Yeah, bro, you did put me to sleep. But not for the reasons you think. Do me a favor. Find me one person making the money these guys did off of a Freelance website. All these guys you mentioned made green offering a myriad of during services from coaching to authoring books. Learning copy is bullshit. If you can write, you can write copy. These 17 year old victims you all keep opining over should probably have found a Freelance forum, not an Entrepreneurship forum if you're so against the "bores of 9-5". Your YouTube example is just piss weak.

@Growth & Learn I was employed. I was making more money than yourself. Had I been a good sheeple and lasted to bonus time....Different convo. Revenues aren't profit. $1mm over 5 years with several "companies". Yeah, you're doing something wrong. Keep believing. See you on eLance - writing my copy.

@csalvato Radical transparency is great. My points are valid since they assault the simple fact that this Freelance lifestyle is being glorified as Fastlane. Everything Demarco said here contradicts what's in his book which is very disappointing.

@RHL I'd rather make a million. Make 5% ROI per year having that million spread out across Index funds, ETFs, and high yield bonds. That's $50K of free money per year. People can get by on less. If you're traveling and building brand equity in any company you have my respect. Your comments about banking are inaccurate. Hours are shot and pay isn't what it was, but still higher than what these clowns are pitching me on. Coincidentally, I'll be doing the very thing you mention soon but only because my actual company is doing as well as it is and I'm in a position to work from anywhere.

I think the consensus is that this became a Freelance Forum. Odesk/eLance/Freelancer will not make any of you rich. End of.

 

[Supa]

@Cyriex your posts make me think that the only thing you are interested in, is making money. Every point you try to make is backed by a making money reason, I didn't read one real point about creating value.

 

[marklov]

While I don't agree with all of Cyriex points and his brash tone might offend some, copywriting is obviously one of the in things now around here and he is stepping on a lot of toes of those hanging on to copywriting with nothing else as the beginning of their journey to the fastlane.

What if he had said learning to program apps is a waste of time when apps were the in thing.....oh wait maybe somebody did

The bandwagon behavior is bit too strong with everyone wailing on the guy.....

Elance/upwork or whatever wont make you rich but at least for a few months can give you some well needed experience but if you are stuck in "have to start small mode" whoring yourself out on the freelance site wont do you any good either and some get caught up in that cycle for years justifying why they should wait until next year but next year never comes.........

If there is any position you really want to be in as a freelancer by reference of ogilvy who was used as an example in this thread, is getting on with a company that recognizes the usefulness of selling by print, these are the companies that can pay you 70k-100k salary with benefits like seeing the process behind bringing a product to market, fulfillment and other fine nuances...

Where you can also work from home but these jobs are often few and far between because the companies or rather individuals that offer these positions have wagered their own "pound of flesh" in the game and know the vaule of the skill, good luck finding that on upwork or wherever where you must not only do work for menial amounts but also work with persons where the most they have done so far is get a logo off fiver then waiting on you to do the rest.

It's a night and day difference working with clients who "get it" and those clueless you have to educate as to the "whys" of what is needed to be done.

Lastly im surprised by all the guys quoting up how much millions copywriters made, I thought event glorifying was supposed to be....

 

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[Boo Blizzi]

Your friend wasn't a good Copywriter - that doesn't devalue the act of learning it. There isn't "one thing" to learn...

Every book and article on writing copy starts with "who is your audience?" and apparently your friend skipped that part.

I was just about to make this very comment.

To the OP - your friend sucks as a copywriter because he didn't start with the first step which is researching and understanding his "starving crowd" (to quote Gary Halbert)

Coincidentally, this is exactly why you have succeeded in the examples you mentioned. You offered people who are starving for excitement, a change of pace, a better life, more business, etc exactly what they were hungry for in plain language.

 

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[jazb]

I loved that read. thanks man

 

[Supa]

Awesome post, will be implemented immediately.