What do you guys think of Jordan Belfort?

[DeletedUser394]

Waiting for the UFC to start?

Entwistle just won by a great heelhook, get watchin'!

scared the shit out of me for a second. I don't have fight pass haha, so I'm going to start watching in an hour when it goes live.

 

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[Deon]

I'm bored and waiting for the UFC to start, so let's go even deeper.

You can find different movies within the same category/genre to be disgusting and others not. This can be based on the subject matter of the particular film as well as any personal connection that the viewer may have.

Let's take Scarface. Here's a movie that glorifies the excess and paranoid life of a drug kingpin. If you've never done drugs or had any issues/family problems related to drugs, then you might be able to watch it purely for the entertainment value. Hell, if you're of a particular political ideology you can argue that he (drug dealer) was simply providing a need that his customers want.

However, flip that to a viewer that is recovering from an addiction or that lost a family or friend to the drug game and you can empathize with how they could be disgusted by such a movie.

Then look at Wolf of Wall Street. Here's a guy that stole money from average people, like you and me. I'm invested in the stock market and these predators are an issue that I come across once in a while.

If a guy like this stole from your grandma for example, you might be pissed to see the exposure he's getting.

It all comes down to life experience among other things.

That made it much clearer... thank you!

When I put myself in the shoes of people who could have been victim of those frauds, or knew people who were... I felt pretty bad

 

[SBS.95]

That made it much clearer... thank you!

When I put myself in the shoes of people who could have been victim of those frauds, or knew people who were... I felt pretty bad

What I don't get is that there are plenty of legitimate entrepreneurs who actually created value to learn from, and yet we're sitting here with 5 pages about some penny stock scammer from the 80s.

It's not like there aren't Zuckerburgs and Musks and whoever is being interviewed on EoF today. But instead we get these threads about Jordan Belfort or Dan Bilzerian or some other jackass who is really good at marketing (using sexy women, and the allure of drugs/alchohol/party lifestyle) but don't offer much in terms of entrepreneurial value. The people who idolize these guys don't seem to realize they are the product.

---

That being said, I thought Wolf of Wall Street was average as far as entertainment, and there's nothing to be garnered in terms of business education. Definitely not Scorsese's best, I could name half a dozen of his movies I'd rather re-watch.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

A movie that espouses no morals, objectifies women, sexual harassment, propagates infidelity, destroying property, doing drugs, physical violence, money laundering, anti-homosexuality, ripping people off, destroying people's lives for one's own selfish gain, etc. Add to it the fact that they are glorifying it the entire way through.

Then all of the hero worship that comes from it, with starry eyed youth wanting to emulate this guy's lifestyle and actions.

Rep +10K should fit the bill here.

 

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[wade1mil]

who is really good at marketing

but don't offer much in terms of entrepreneurial value

Sounds like entrepreneurial value to me.

I know nothing about this person other than what's in the movie. But if someone can get legitimate value from somebody, who cares who they learn from. If I can learn something that makes me more valuable to society, I don't care if I learn it from you, a criminal, a teacher, a mentor or a dentist. You could always start a thread about Mark Zuckerburg or Elon Musk if you'd like.

there's nothing to be garnered in terms of business education

Maybe not for you, but for someone that can see past the immoral aspects of the movie and cherry pick value, this is absolutely false.

 

[Deon]

What I don't get is that there are plenty of legitimate entrepreneurs who actually created value to learn from, and yet we're sitting here with 5 pages about some penny stock scammer from the 80s.

It's not like there aren't Zuckerburgs and Musks and whoever is being interviewed on EoF today. But instead we get these threads about Jordan Belfort or Dan Bilzerian or some other jackass who is really good at marketing (using sexy women, and the allure of drugs/alchohol/party lifestyle) but don't offer much in terms of entrepreneurial value. The people who idolize these guys don't seem to realize they are the product.

---

That being said, I thought Wolf of Wall Street was average as far as entertainment, and there's nothing to be garnered in terms of business education. Definitely not Scorsese's best, I could name half a dozen of his movies I'd rather re-watch.

Like I said in my previous post... i understand how the movie could be seen in a negative light... agreed

But comparing Jordan Belfort to Dan Bilzerian?? Let's not get crazy over here... One has powerful sales and persuasion skills or else he wouldn't have been able to do what he did... The other inherited money and is flashing it on instagram... come on

Like I said, I'm not debating the different perception of the movie anymore... but your analogy sucks sorry

 

[Deon]

Sounds like entrepreneurial value to me.

I know nothing about this person other than what's in the movie. But if someone can get legitimate value from somebody, who cares who they learn from. If I can learn something that makes me more valuable to society, I don't care if I learn it from you, a criminal, a teacher, a mentor or a dentist. You could always start a thread about Mark Zuckerburg or Elon Musk if you'd like.



Maybe not for you, but for someone that can see past the immoral aspects of the movie and cherry pick value, this is absolutely false.

Agreed

 

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[SBS.95]

But comparing Jordan Belfort to Dan Bilzerian?? Let's not get crazy over here... One has powerful sales and persuasion skills or else he wouldn't have been able to do what he did... The other inherited money and is flashing it on instagram... come on

Like I said, I'm not debating the different perception of the movie anymore... but your analogy sucks sorry

I was comparing their audiences.

Both attract teenagers who think their time is too valuable to work hard, but have dreams of striking it rich so that they can throw Benjamins out of helicopters and snort blow off of hookers asses. Both attract mental masturbators who like the idea of being a successful entrepreneur notably more than anything else.

If there truly are quality business lessons to be learned here, tell me. Let us know what Leo taught you in a very fictionalized version of events. Post a picture of your Countach (that sounds way dirtier than it should, leave it to the Italians.)

 

[wade1mil]

Off the top of my head...

The underlying strategy of offering something with less risk (blue chip stocks - equivalent of $9 product) up front to form a strong relationship in order to later sell them on something with higher risk (penny stocks - equivalent to $99 product) later.
How to sell a pen through creating urgency
Starting with only what's necessary (rent a garage) to start a business and expand (huge office) as you grow.
Staying quiet after asking for the sale
A sales is made on every call - either you or them
People don't buy from you because they don't know/trust you -> trust helps sales

My Countach:

 

[theag]

Off the top of my head...

The underlying strategy of offering something with less risk (blue chip stocks - equivalent of $9 product) up front to form a strong relationship in order to later sell them on something with higher risk (penny stocks - equivalent to $99 product) later.
How to sell a pen through creating urgency
Starting with only what's necessary (rent a garage) to start a business and expand (huge office) as you grow.
Staying quiet after asking for the sale
A sales is made on every call - either you or them
People don't buy from you because they don't know/trust you -> trust helps sales

My Countach:

Great summary.

His sales training is great.

Also his books are much better than the movie, because theres more business substance to them (first is better than the second).

 

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[DeletedUser394]

People keep mentioning this guy's amazing sales ability (he sounds like a nasally tool/weasel in most of his interviews lol), so let's go to the extreme;

Hitler was a tremendous leader. He was a horrible piece of crap, but he rallied an entire nation to nearly conquer Europe.

Should we take lessons from Hitler, when so many other great leaders have come before him?

It makes me feel dirty thinking about it. While the magnitude of what these two men did can't be compared, the principle behind it (ie, somehow ignore the terrible, because he was great at one thing) is rotten to the core.

 

[SBS.95]

Off the top of my head...

The underlying strategy of offering something with less risk (blue chip stocks - equivalent of $9 product) up front to form a strong relationship in order to later sell them on something with higher risk (penny stocks - equivalent to $99 product) later.
How to sell a pen through creating urgency
Starting with only what's necessary (rent a garage) to start a business and expand (huge office) as you grow.
Staying quiet after asking for the sale
A sales is made on every call - either you or them
People don't buy from you because they don't know/trust you -> trust helps sales

Arguably the first helpful post in this thread, even though I still disagree with the philosophy. Rep + for providing value though.

Nice G-Wiz

 

[theag]

People keep mentioning this guy's amazing sales ability (he sounds like a nasally tool/weasel in most of his interviews lol), so let's go to the extreme;

Hitler was a tremendous leader. He was a horrible piece of crap, but he rallied an entire nation to nearly conquer Europe.

Should we take lessons from Hitler, when so many other great leaders have come before him?

It makes me feel dirty thinking about it. While the magnitude of what these two men did can't be compared, the principle behind it (ie, somehow ignore the terrible, because he was great at one thing) is rotten to the core.

Thats just so much BS I dont even know what to respond.

 

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[ChasingPaper]

People keep mentioning this guy's amazing sales ability (he sounds like a nasally tool/weasel in most of his interviews lol), so let's go to the extreme;

Hitler was a tremendous leader. He was a horrible piece of crap, but he rallied an entire nation to nearly conquer Europe.

Should we take lessons from Hitler, when so many other great leaders have come before him?

It makes me feel dirty thinking about it. While the magnitude of what these two men did can't be compared, the principle behind it (ie, somehow ignore the terrible, because he was great at one thing) is rotten to the core.

Did you just compare Jordan Belfort to Hitler?

 

[Deon]

Post a picture of your Countach

Disregarding how low it is to say something like that... I read MJ's book and still didn't get a Countach, does that mean his book sucks? (Not that I would buy it anyway, because the car looks butt-a$$ ugly to me )

Thats just so much BS I dont even know what to respond.

That's how I'm feeling

Plus yes, I haven't delved too much into the story of Hitler and how he achieved what he achieved, but if there is a lesson to be learned there, I am capable to distinguish the message from the messenger and take it. Of course, like you said earlier, if I was a holocaust survivor I wouldn't be able to do that, but i'm not a holocaust survivor, and while i can think what he did is despicable, i would still read it and benefit from it if there's something to be learnt. He used his skills towards horrific means, doesn't mean you can use them towards doing good things.

Of course, I'm going through his Straight Line Psychology program, so I can see what he offers more than his movie.
I never claimed Leonardo Dicaprio can teach me about sales, but Jordan Belfort can, yes.

 

[DeletedUser394]

Did you just compare Jordan Belfort to Hitler?

No, I used Hitler as an example to magnify how absurd some people's viewpoint is on this subject. I'm comparing the fact that people are seeking to emulate certain facets of 'bad' individuals. I don't look up to or learn from people that have harmed others, in any degree.

Want a better comparison? Bernie Madoff. The dude was a billionaire. He was active for a lot longer than Belfort and made a lot more money. Yet somehow he's bad and to be shunned, but Belfort is an amazing salesman with so much to teach. Few people want to grow up to be Madoff, but half this forum seems to want to drop to their knees and blow Belfort.

I'm trying to find out why you deem it okay to learn from people who's only intent it was to defraud others out of their hard earned money.

 

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[DeletedUser394]

I think I realize now that maybe Belfort is a great salesman after all... Seeing as he's got a lot of people by the balls as we speak.

 

[ChasingPaper]

No, I used Hitler as an example to magnify how absurd some people's viewpoint is on this subject. I'm comparing the fact that people are seeking to emulate certain facets of 'bad' individuals. I don't look up to or learn from people that have harmed others, in any degree.

Want a better comparison? Bernie Madoff. The dude was a billionaire. He was active for a lot longer than Belfort and made a lot more money. Yet somehow he's bad and to be shunned, but Belfort is an amazing salesman with so much to teach. Few people want to grow up to be Madoff, but half this forum seems to want to drop to their knees and blow Belfort.

I'm trying to find out why you deem it okay to learn from people who's only intent it was to defraud others out of their hard earned money.

You fail to separate business from your morals. That is your problem. Hell, I guess we can't look up to anyone then, because almost everyone has done harm in some degree before. Lmao I'm not even going to get into why Jordan is a great salesmen, I really can't believe you can't recognize that but I don't really care. I think he is and was an a**hole, but I won't deny he knows how to do business. I'm not talking about him scamming people either, i'm talking about his other businesses that he pursed that you don't see in the movie.

 

[DeletedUser394]

You fail to separate business from your morals.

You're right about that.

I lead my business and my team to the highest ideal that I'm capable of attaining. When I stumble, I reevaluate and learn how to do better. It's not a failure, it's a goal to strive towards for me.

I don't separate business and morals, because in my book my business encapsulates who I am as a human being and my business is an embodiment of my morals and how I choose to live my life.

We must agree to disagree and move on. Thanks for sharing.

 

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[ChasingPaper]

You're right about that.

I lead my business and my team to the highest ideal that I'm capable of attaining. When I stumble, I reevaluate and learn how to do better. It's not a failure, it's a goal to strive towards for me.

I don't separate business and morals, because in my book my business encapsulates who I am as a human being and my business is an embodiment of my morals and how I choose to live my life.

We must agree to disagree and move on. Thanks for sharing.

Your not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying have bad morales in your business, but disregarding knowledge from a successful person just because he was an a**hole is a terrible decision and in the end is only hurting yourself. I guess we will just disagree, have a good day.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

We must agree to disagree and move on.

I guess we will just disagree

Now that's some awesome sauce there... two people disagree and instead of a flame war, they respect each other's ideas and agree to move on.

 

[randomnumber314]

Then all of the hero worship that comes from it, with starry eyed youth wanting to emulate this guy's lifestyle and actions.. And you don't understand why someone would find that to be repulsive?

I think people see the money and shenanigans and think that lifestyle is the one of choice...not realizing how little substance is in those people's lives. Reminds me of what Michael Lewis said after he wrote his first book Liar's Poker--he wrote it as an insight into how corrupt and lacking of value Wall Street had become, in his opinion, people took that book as a how-to guide for making money.

 

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[Andy Black]

...my business encapsulates who I am as a human being and my business is an embodiment of my morals and how I choose to live my life.

^^^ Love this.

I'd even go so far as to say that business is the truest form of self expression.

 

[Maxjohan]

Then look at Wolf of Wall Street. Here's a guy that stole money from average people, like you and me. I'm invested in the stock market and these predators are an issue that I come across once in a while.

The stock market is overflown with stocks where the owner/founder/ceo just wants a good salary. Without any intentions to make it big like a real fastlaner. If you know what I mean?

That's the secret to the stock market. Calling the bluffs. I mean, avoiding the bluffs.

I was so close to investing a lot of money in to a stock this summer. I am so glad I didn't, because it has tanked like 70%. Even though the product they had was promising and I could actually see a billion dollar tag on it. They didn't know how to execute. Just a bunch of back slapping crooks getting together(In my opinion.) extracting money from a dump and pump scheme stock. Pouring out press releases.

Now, they have sold their best asset for a bargain. To some unknown company overseas that was registered in October of this year. Most likely some other crook type of guy.

If you gonna play the stock game. Rule number one is to figure out the owners/founders/ceos true intentions. Otherwise you will lose too many times. Because 99.9% of the small stocks are just there to pay the owners and employees a salary. And pour out press releases of this and that. But they truly never have any real hunger for making it big whatsover.

That's just my opinion.

 

[DeletedUser394]

This is even more off topic than Hitler (lol), but my stock investing strategy is fairly simple.

Invest in low cost ETFs that track major indices, blue chips, dividend payers.. the boring stuff essentially. Withdraw 3%-4% of the fund per year.

I definitely don't invest in small caps or penny stocks at this point in time.

Following the sale of my previous business, I was able to functionally 'retire' at age 22 so it's working okay so far

 

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[Deon]

@MJ I've been on the verge of agreeing to disagree from the beginning, but the answers kept getting more and more ridiculous and I felt like answering was the best idea

Gary Halbert went to prison because of false claims in his advertising... yet almost everybody on here wanting to learn copywriting is following his advice. Yes, it's not the same crime, but somehow with Halbert, the topic wasn't much of an issue... Why?... because you can take the copywriting and put it to good use you don't have to make false claims like him

Another topic just praised Shredz CEO for being a hard worker and all that stuff... if you want to get to the nitty gritty (I don't know how it's written haha), he has a fat loss product like every supplement company out there, promising to get you shredded, yet we all know that product will not make you lose fat like it claims if you keep eating like a pig... does that mean i can't learn from how he promoted his brand on instagram, etc? What if it's really effective, and my company is telling people about how much bullshit those supplements are?

There is a difference between learning a skill and taking on that person's morals. @GrumpyCat nobody is saying you don't have good morals, but if you come to your team and present to them a selling technique that Jordan Belfort used because you know it will work, to help you sell in your morally-conscious company, what difference does it make that it came from JB? The technique works and will help your company do good things.

It's not like that advice will force you to do bad things with it

Why not stop reading persuasion and marketing books, because you can use those skills to manipulate people?

Anyway...I really dumbed this down to the lowest point I can, if we can't even agree on some of this, then we'll agree to disagree

 

[Maxjohan]

This is even more off topic than Hitler (lol), but my stock investing strategy is fairly simple.

Invest in low cost ETFs that track major indices, blue chips, dividend payers.. the boring stuff essentially. Withdraw 3%-4% of the fund per year.

I definitely don't invest in small caps or penny stocks at this point in time.

Following the sale of my previous business, I was able to functionally 'retire' at age 22 so it's working okay so far

The safer bet is of course to invest in bigger market cap stocks. Like you seem to do. Unlike stocks who are trading at $0.03 or less. It's just that, if you find that needle in a haystack you can make 1000x your money. Or so. And that's what I want to get.

Priceline was at $1.06 at one point. Now they are trading at $1103.99 a share.

But I know it will be hard to find them.

 

[DeletedUser394]

@Deon I understand what you're trying to convey.

You make valid points, but regardless it's not for me, let's leave it at that.

No idea who Halbert is. Not on my radar.

Think of the prettiest girl you know of.. imagine her signing that 'Let it Go' song, and find your happy place

Good luck with your business endeavors.

Cheers.

 

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[Deon]

@Deon I understand what you're trying to convey.

You make valid points, but regardless it's not for me, let's leave it at that.

No idea who Halbert is. Not on my radar.

Think of the prettiest girl you know of.. imagine her signing that 'Let it Go' song, and find your happy place

Good luck with your business endeavors.

Cheers.

Haha I've been hearing about that Frozen song a lot the last few days... mostly in parodies.

But yep... good luck to you too

 

[Maxjohan]

Gary Halbert went to prison because of false claims in his advertising... yet almost everybody on here wanting to learn copywriting is following his advice. Yes, it's not the same crime, but somehow with Halbert, the topic wasn't much of an issue... Why?... because you can take the copywriting and put it to good use you don't have to make false claims like him

I agree with the Halbert one. But not so much about Jordan Belfort. Halbert have a free newsletter of what I know. Halbert have like 40-50 letters all free on his newsletter site. What did we really learn from Jordan Belfort? Sell... Sell .... Sell! Maybe. Not so much meat there. Unless you pay maybe? But I think Jordan Belfort is just mostly hyped up. Because of the movie.

Just my opinion.