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Vaccines Required to Fly - The Beginning of More Intensive Government Control

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BizyDad

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This is not what she wanted.

Her post below:


There is nothing in the above, about the other side, that points to healthy debate, moderate speech, appreciating the other side's viewpoints, etc...

It's very clear what she is saying. Basically that the other side is doing what it wants, and for what?

Like our freedoms are worthless, no matter the reasoning behind it.
I see where you are coming from. But I read in her post a spirit of, "Hey freedom lovers, can you use your freedoms to protect your fellow man?". And she is after all still advocating for an elective government to lead it,not a 1984 tyranny nor communist regime.

But again, these are my interpretations based on my biases.

And even if she didn't say it, I will. Can people in this thread dial it down a notch? Just one notch.

It hasn't been proven that a vaccine stops the spread. So the non-vax crowd has a good point.

And our highest law begins with the words, we the people in an effort to form a more perfect union... And isn't a more perfect union one where individuals agree to help each other?

To me, the basic questions are how much does the vaccine really help, and what is the proper role of government in leading the fight against covid.

And I believe the true answer to these questions isn't known by anyone, but everyone here is speaking as if they know the truth.

I think more people should have some humility about their opinions, and I think you did a good job of showing how that can be done @eliquid .

Uhmm. yeah she did.

Wither it was vaccination or inoculation, the point behind the original post ( and you know this ) was prior, even our first president ( showing history of use ) FORCED a group of people to do X.

That could have been vaccination, inoculation, or a freakin colonoscopy. The point was government forcing a group of people to do something for the safety of others.

I know you get this.

But the major flaw was, she was presenting this as government forcing people to do X for the safety of others. Her example is flawed because the military is not the same as civilian life.

Her example that the Commander In Chief of the military orders a solider to do something during war, is not the same as my state Governor telling me ( a civilian ) I have to wear a mask or forbade me from church during a pandemic that 99% of people live from.
I agree her argument is flawed. But I also felt it had some merits to the discussion, especially considering the army was drafted to service, unlike now where service is voluntary.

Her argument is flawed, and so is yours. And that's okay cuz both of you are bringing good points. My point is that we all are using flawed arguments, myself included.

But when history repeats itself, it doesn't play every note perfectly. It hums a similar tune. And we can learn from the similarities rather then tossing it aside due to the differences.
 
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Matt Sun

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Perhaps do what some of these guys are doing : constantly live in fear of "evil governments" trying to "oppress you" and "take away your freedom".

Wear masks? Gov oppression.
Vaccine? Gov oppression.
An eventual cure for Covid? Gov oppression.
Stay home to prevent infecting others and lessen the burden on medical staff ? Gov oppression.
Safety distancing to slow down Covid infection? Gov oppression.
Lockdown cities to slow Covid spread? Gov oppression. Gov taking away the people's freedom.

"Freedom" and "human rights" at all and any cost, even if it means 800,000 cases + 41000 deaths daily + gradual decline of economy and society. I doubt that's what freedom is supposed to mean.
This is interesting. Is there any proof that lockdowns, masks etc save at least 1 life ?
There is a recent study published in Nature, one of the most respected scientific magazines, that showed that after evaluating millions of people, asymtomatics don't spread any disease.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/a...-didnt-occur-at-all-study-of-10-million-finds

(Here is the actual paper Post-lockdown SARS-CoV-2 nucleic acid screening in nearly ten million residents of Wuhan, China )

Another study made in denmark showed no difference between people that wear masks and people who didn't.
https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/18/major-study-finds-masks-dont-reduce-C0VlD-19-infection-rates/

(here is the actual study ACP Journals )


So we have all this draconian rules, people that feel safe with them defend them, but there is no real science to back it up. Just the authority of Faucci and WHO and Mainstream Media.
And all this entitled people who shame you for not wearing a mask, fail to see the horrible consequences of this lockdown and covid measures: drug overdose at all time highs, suicide at all time highs, poverty sky rocketing... and more.
 

WillHurtDontCare

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Government? You're missing the point - financial incentives will be the primary force behind these techno-passports, not political ones.

Good old fashioned rent seeking by the pharma lobby along with ambitious technical venture capital firms will see this an opportunity to make trillions over the coming decades.

Pfeizer is far more interested in making you BUY the vaccine than Uncle Sam.

Hell, I'm sure that someone on this forum is currently working through ideas on how to siphon off some profits from the "covid cures" tidal waves.

It's still tyranny though, just of a different origin.
 

Saavedra

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Government? You're missing the point - financial incentives will be the primary force behind these techno-passports, not political ones.

Good old fashioned rent seeking by the pharma lobby along with ambitious technical venture capital firms will see this an opportunity to make trillions over the coming decades.

Pfeizer is far more interested in making you BUY the vaccine than Uncle Sam.

Hell, I'm sure that someone on this forum is currently working through ideas on how to siphon off some profits from the "covid cures" tidal waves.

It's still tyranny though, just of a different origin.
Plus the black market behind all the process. Who doesn't want to get a paper that has a background associated cost of some 100$ for 50$ and make 49$ of profit by not testing anything or injecting any vaccine at all?

I see the situation mostly from the point of creating change to create profit. It seems to me like the same kind of game they did with the electric cars. Create change just for the sake of creating sales.


Btw, already seeing masks on the ground in my city, seems those very environmentally friendly people that wear them are not very careful with properly throwing them to the bin.
 
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BellaPippin

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Ordering your military troops ( where you are their commander in chief ) to do X is different than "ordering" all Americans to do X as the President.

How is it different when (if) it passes both houses? We put those people there to write and pass laws. It's not "ordering". The rule of the majority is what it is, whether they pass things I like or not. We chose democracy.

The main thing is, you said "We agree on a government and certain laws so we can co-habitate in a society".

Right now, half of us DONT AGREE on a government or certain laws. We can't co-habitate with the ways things are now at this moment.

You are basically saying we all get to vote and function daily ( by agreement ) on the ways things should be ( our government and laws ) so we can all be happy and get along ( co-habitate ) with each other ( society ).

But then you act as if the half that doesn't want to wear mask and go along with these rules, that something is wrong with them?

This is what democracy is, or at least the system we chose, before you tell me this isn't democracy. You are exactly defining it. Yes the minority has to follow the law, or at least that's how it works, that's why both parties kinda need to try to settle somewhere in the middle before stuff passes...that's where "voices" are supposed to be heard, in congress.


@MA81 Other people's health isn't my responsibility but it is an OBLIGATION as a citizen to also not harm people, at least not on purpose/knowingly, that's how I operate and I sleep well at night.

Last I checked, chicago is super communist and yet you guys still manage to have some of the most cases despite all your "precautions".

Why attack Chicago to undermine my argument? I never gave Chicago as an example of anything. I am not the mayor. And if you call Chicago communist not only your hyperboles are ridiculous, you don't know the difference between communism from left-leaning...which for the record I mostly don't align with. But go ahead and spend some time in Cuba interviewing the locals and then come back to Chicago and compare.

Have you even checked the book out yourself?

Yes I've read it and I still think everyone is losing their minds, on both sides. And don't come to me with the ugly media because I don't consume any, at all. I am aware it is trash.

BTW, she didn't say to shut up. She said that the issue isn't black and white. She wants both sides to be more moderate in their speech (if I understand her correctly).

THANK YOU.

This is not what she wanted.

@eliquid That is exactly what I wanted, excuse me if it was ambiguous in the delivery. Now that I clarified that, we don't need to discuss the semantics of how I wrote it anymore.

I hear people here talk about "raise up" and "take a stand" like this is the Hunger Games and honestly you more than anyone know that the "masses" are going to be controlled, otherwise MJ wouldn't have needed to write his books. I'm not saying "give up" or "shut up" but instead of all this extreme rhetoric of preventing world domination it might be more useful to get involved at a more local level. If you aren't involved in your community, do so. If you are, keep it up. Because from what I see everywhere all the "fight" happens either on protests that accomplish nothing and trash places, or Facebook with tweety posts. But very few people actually show up and run for alderman of their neighborhood. This goes for "both sides". I roll my eyes at pretty much any protests because then only a tiny portion show up to cast a ballot.

You may have the perception that I'm taking a side but I'm not. I'm not bunkered in my house or go out in a hazmat suit, but I have respect for all the people that died unnecessarily because they got sick, and the workers that have been working overtime to treat sick people. I do my part because the virus is real-- and just because we gotta ride it doesn't mean we might as well all get sick and get more deaths.


@BizyDad I can always count on you to support healthy debate, thank you.


and by the way

Tej8E8E.jpg
 
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Kak

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How is it different when (if) it passes both houses? We put those people there to write and pass laws. It's not "ordering". The rule of the majority is what it is, whether they pass things I like or not. We chose democracy.

There is a big broblem with democracy. A tyranny of the majority.

That is why we actually have a republic. There are problems with a republic as well... Obviously...

Here are the basics though... Just because the majority order something up, doesn't make it right.

In a pure democracy, 51 percent could legally kill 49 percent. That doesn't make it right, rightous or acceptable.

About 60 percent currently steal from 40 percent at gunpoint. Just because it is legal, doesn't make it right, righteous, acceptable or something we shouldn't raise issue with.

If everyone just sat back and accepted what is imposed on them America wouldn't even exist.
 

Thoelt53

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There is a big broblem with democracy. A tyranny of the majority.

That is why we actually have a republic. There are problems with a republic as well... Obviously...

Here are the basics though... Just because the majority order something up, doesn't make it right.

In a pure democracy, 51 percent could legally kill 49 percent. That doesn't make it right, rightous or acceptable.

About 60 percent currently steal from 40 percent at gunpoint. Just because it is legal, doesn't make it right, righteous, acceptable or something we shouldn't raise issue with.

If everyone just sat back and accepted what is imposed on them America wouldn't even exist.
Senators were appointed by state legislature until 1913, the same year the Fed was established. That system kept senators loyal to their respective state. If they did not operate in a manner that was best for their state, they were removed. There were no terms, it was an appointment. It could be ended at any time.

Checks and balances went out the window in 1913, as did the sovereignty of the United States with the creation of the Federal Reserve.

Mind you the Federal Reserve is no more ‘federal’ than FedEx.
 
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Thoelt53

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I’ve given up. I’m going to get the Moderna vaccine. Their HQ is about 5 miles from my home. I trust them. Nevermind they’ve never brought a vaccine to market, I think they nailed it this time.

And if my dick falls off, it’s ok, I can’t sue them anyway. So I’ve just decided that whatever happens is the way it was meant to be. I’m incapable of thinking for myself, and so I am relinquishing all critical thought to the experts.

Joe Biden is expecting 150,000,000 deaths from COVID. I think the best thing I can do for my country is to stop thinking, obey, and wait for my stimulus check to come. If I’m lucky they will implement UBI and I’ll never have to work again. Half of everybody will be dead anyway.

Wear a mask and social distance, people. Your masters totally wear them and socially distance themselves all the time. Just ask Gavin Newsom, Diane Feinstein, His Highness Andrew Cuomo (don’t forget Fredo, he has the roid rage), Gretchen Whitmer’s husband, etc. They’ll all tell you to do the right thing.
 

Kal-El1998

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How is it different when (if) it passes both houses? We put those people there to write and pass laws. It's not "ordering". The rule of the majority is what it is, whether they pass things I like or not. We chose democracy.



This is what democracy is, or at least the system we chose, before you tell me this isn't democracy. You are exactly defining it. Yes the minority has to follow the law, or at least that's how it works, that's why both parties kinda need to try to settle somewhere in the middle before stuff passes...that's where "voices" are supposed to be heard, in congress.


@MA81 Other people's health isn't my responsibility but it is an OBLIGATION as a citizen to also not harm people, at least not on purpose/knowingly, that's how I operate and I sleep well at night.



Why attack Chicago to undermine my argument? I never gave Chicago as an example of anything. I am not the mayor. And if you call Chicago communist not only your hyperboles are ridiculous, you don't know the difference between communism from left-leaning...which for the record I mostly don't align with. But go ahead and spend some time in Cuba interviewing the locals and then come back to Chicago and compare.



Yes I've read it and I still think everyone is losing their minds, on both sides. And don't come to me with the ugly media because I don't consume any, at all. I am aware it is trash.



THANK YOU.



@eliquid That is exactly what I wanted, excuse me if it was ambiguous in the delivery. Now that I clarified that, we don't need to discuss the semantics of how I wrote it anymore.

I hear people here talk about "raise up" and "take a stand" like this is the Hunger Games and honestly you more than anyone know that the "masses" are going to be controlled, otherwise MJ wouldn't have needed to write his books. I'm not saying "give up" or "shut up" but instead of all this extreme rhetoric of preventing world domination it might be more useful to get involved at a more local level. If you aren't involved in your community, do so. If you are, keep it up. Because from what I see everywhere all the "fight" happens either on protests that accomplish nothing and trash places, or Facebook with tweety posts. But very few people actually show up and run for alderman of their neighborhood. This goes for "both sides". I roll my eyes at pretty much any protests because then only a tiny portion show up to cast a ballot.

You may have the perception that I'm taking a side but I'm not. I'm not bunkered in my house or go out in a hazmat suit, but I have respect for all the people that died unnecessarily because they got sick, and the workers that have been working overtime to treat sick people. I do my part because the virus is real-- and just because we gotta ride it doesn't mean we might as well all get sick and get more deaths.


@BizyDad I can always count on you to support healthy debate, thank you.



and by the way

Tej8E8E.jpg
If I have to explain the difference between so called "left leaning" and communist...God help us.

Has anyone taken a look at the 45 communist goals that were made known in congress in 1963?

It's shameful how people are falling for the faux moral superiority the communists try to impose and dictate through gaslighting that ultimately undermines America.

Sure I used Chicago as an example...it's easy cuz that's where you are located...but if you want me to use other examples so Chicago isn't targeted specifically California and New York suck just as bad.

If I were to interview anyone from Cuba, they'd tell us to not let all these "leftists" push toward their communist state goals lol. They'd probably say say Chicago looked like Cuba before communism fully took over.
 
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D

Deleted50669

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Government? You're missing the point - financial incentives will be the primary force behind these techno-passports, not political ones.

Good old fashioned rent seeking by the pharma lobby along with ambitious technical venture capital firms will see this an opportunity to make trillions over the coming decades.

Pfeizer is far more interested in making you BUY the vaccine than Uncle Sam.

Hell, I'm sure that someone on this forum is currently working through ideas on how to siphon off some profits from the "covid cures" tidal waves.

It's still tyranny though, just of a different origin.
I sincerely hope you're correct.
 
D

Deleted74338

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Why attack Chicago to undermine my argument? I never gave Chicago as an example of anything. I am not the mayor. And if you call Chicago communist not only your hyperboles are ridiculous, you don't know the difference between communism from left-leaning...which for the record I mostly don't align with. But go ahead and spend some time in Cuba interviewing the locals and then come back to Chicago and compare.
Just wandering, what do you think is worse, Cuba being under embargo and heavy sanctions or being communist? Whats worse for their economy?
 

Santi M

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Just wandering, what do you think is worse, Cuba being under embargo and heavy sanctions or being communist? Whats worse for their economy?
Look at the communist countries without embargo and judge yourself.
 
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WillHurtDontCare

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srodrigo

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C'mon people use a little critical thinking for a second.

Critical thinking and common sense are some ancient skills that are not that common anymore.

Just so I'm following, yellow fever: kills 20-50% of people who get it, but you don't worry about it.
Something that kills, .25%, you're laser focused on.

Use Google and look up how many deaths the yellow fever causes annually. Now compare it with the 1.84M deaths covid has caused in one year even with "draconian" restrictions. Then come back to us.
 
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Simon Angel

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A better, brighter future is just around the corner.

Trust the experts. End C0VlD-19.

giphy.gif

They_Live_3.jpeg
 

srodrigo

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All for a virus with a 99.98% survival rate
Where is this data coming from? Because the registered numbers say 1.84M deaths / 84.7M cases = 2.17% death rate. Divide it by 10 if you want to think only 10% of actual cases are tracked (which is a sensible concern). That's still around 0.22% death rate, not 0.02%.
 

srodrigo

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There is a big broblem with democracy. A tyranny of the majority.
Some of us still prefer the tyranny of the majority to the tyranny of a single dude, which we all know how it ended up multiple times.
 
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Kak

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Some of us still prefer the tyranny of the majority to the tyranny of a single dude, which we all know how it ended up multiple times.
adrien-brody-so-what.gif
 

Kevin88660

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I prefer think in terms of common sense, probability and risk-reward.

I am very supportive of mask enforcement. Even without Covid it definitely reduces a lot of other diseases from spreading. Small Sacrifice big reward. People were literally getting much less flu these days.

Injecting chemicals into our bodies? I think that is totally a different matter. People need to take a historical view on the development of human biological science. The consensus has been wrong many times, even without factoring possible monetary influence and politics.

A lot is just probabilistic guess works based on interpretations of experimental result. Because it is impossible to isolate one variable from others.

Any long term side effect could only be discovered decades later. The probability of contracting Covid and its damage can be estimated based on the person's age and pre-existing medical condition. Most importantly the risk can be mitigated. If you are afraid of covid just go out less and get less exposure.

The downside risk of vaccine to be discovered 20 years later is simply unknown.

Kindly convince me why should anyone with well mathematical instinct and risk management want to trade known risk for an unknown risk? It just doesn't make sense.
 
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BellaPippin

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There is no "and", that's the answer he gave. What system do you propose, how could we realistically change it? Because you are a republic the states can still decide to do something about what they do not agree with. MJ is moving because of those reasons, right? To a state more friendly to what serves him, and that's great. You guys are free and have the opportunity to do that in this country. Companies move abroad where they can do business better, people move where taxes are lower, where it's more gun-friendly, etc. At least in that scenario you could say all the anti-vaxxers could be majority in some states, some other states would have more people that prefer to vaccinate, and the same with other issues. In reality I would say that's sort of how it works itself out more or less.

Otherwise again, honestly asking what do you think would be the solution in an actionable plan. Secession? That's the only thing I can think of at the moment, go Galt it? Again I'm just keeping it real here. Give me something other than a vague and ambiguous "do something" "fight the good fight".

And for the record, because I know it's a fallacy, I do know that majority of consensus doesn't make something right. I never claimed that. We can have an infinity of ethics-related discussions as to what is right and what is wrong for different people.

If the vaccine is so good why do the people who take it care who doesn’t?

You need a certain percentage of people vaxinated in order to achieve herd immunity in the first place. Since this is a flu it's not going to be eradicated, but maybe a seasonal shot like we do with normal flu can lower the numbers and intensity to that of the flu, and then we can go back to "normal" (or closer to it) like they did in some other places. In a town, city or place where you and a few others are the only ones with a vaccine the disease is still going to be going around infecting people at a higher rate, causing people to call in sick more often, making children skip days of school, etc.

Again you could argue "my health isn't your responsibility" but from the other side people want to be able to be going around knowing there is less threat in the first place, especially the ones that would like the extra protection but cannot, such as immune-depressed people, people with respiratory diseases, elders, babies too young to be vaxinated, etc. If you have someone like that in your circles you probably wouldn't want that person to get it because they would be in trouble, even though most of of us just go past it just fine. I understand you guys believe in individualism, so do I, but man, I also care for my fellow neighbor some.

Now this could probably go with what I answered Kak, if a person has the opportunity moving to an area where there is more consensus on being vaxinated or vice versa this is probably the most practical and realistic solution.

Just so I'm following, yellow fever: kills 20-50% of people who get it, but you don't worry about it.
Something that kills, .25%, you're laser focused on.

I'm going to go with because it's not a pandemic and it's only recommended/requested that you take it if you go to certain places in Africa and South America. That's like you asking me why we're still not talking about Ebola. It's still killing people, so is Swine Flu, so is Malaria, so is Measles, it's just that it's under control, the whole globe isn't infected with it.

This is interesting. Is there any proof that lockdowns, masks etc save at least 1 life

Not sure what you mean by "save a life" but this demonstration is pretty good on how the masks slow it down in closed spaces, I thought.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2azcn7MqOU



Ladies and gentleman, I present to you the mind of those telling you to wear a mask. And by the way we're not a democracy we're a republic. Thank God.

Seriously bro do you have anything to give me that isn't a personal attack? And I do not buy that you just eat apples or whatever every single day of your life or that you wash your hair and your hands with white vinegar.

Here's an article that is an insightful read regarding being a Constitutional Democracy/Republic: ‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument

I don't vouch for the article as a whole, I just think the part of what the Founding fathers published explaining what kind of government they wanted (basically the body of the article) sheds some light (can be fact checked by researching what they published) and aligns with what I'm saying, that it's supposed to be a CONTROLLED majority. Whether that is working efficiently nowadays is another topic by itself, like @Kak said.



Now I don't mean to be rude and just leave but I think we can agree that a ton of us should actually working on our Fastlane, I know I do if I want to quit my job.... so I'm just agreeing to disagree and hoping there can be some mutual understanding between people in general. Xoxo.
 
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Deleted78083

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Ok, I think I can answer OP's question.

Getting a vaccine to fly is like being forbidden to drive drunk.

It is not about you or your rights. It is about other people. Nobody cares if you get drunk, or even get killed driving drunk (aka not taking the vaccine) but everyone cares if you kill someone driving drunk (aka infect people if you are sick because you didn't take the vaccine).

For example, a French couple that had covid infected more than 100 people in Iceland. That is exactly what we want to avoid, hence, you must take the vaccine.


PS: We all know covid is a scientific experiment from the lizards that control governments which attempt to silence us with bio-weapons spread through the 5G network.

Duh.
 
D

Deleted78083

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PS: it is insane the amount of time some users lost writing 3 pages of answer for something that does not matter. Aren't you guys supposed to work on opening a business?
 
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Simon Angel

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The thing is, almost everyone commenting here is not a medical professional. And even if they were, they're likely not an epidemiologist or molecular biologist.

I've been following C0VlD-19's every step since October 2019. A few months ago CDC and WHO combined their efforts in a "best-estimate" fatality rate study, which took a shit ton of data and formed this chimera of a graph. It was 0.007% across all demographics. For some reason, it has been removed from the Interwebs.

Anyway, I know 30+ people who had C0VlD-19 for sure. As in, I made a mental note of anyone who had at least a loss of sense of smell for a few weeks without sinusitis or allergic rhinitis. 2 got tested at home with an antigen test, which showed they were positive, while only 1 got tested at a medical facility and, again, they were positive.

So from those that I 100% know were sick with C0VlD-19, which were about 30, only 1 was entered into the official data.

None died, some had nasty pneumonia. Most people I know are in their 20s, after all.

Something I noticed was that immunocompromised, super ill individuals often got through C0VlD-19 unscathed i.e asymptomatic. Likely due to their corticosteroid and/or TNF-a inhibiting drugs (TNF-a is a pro-inflammatory cytokine and one of the reasons people die from C0VlD-19 - a.k.a the cytokine storm).

My opinion - take TNF-a lowering supplements like Vitamin D, Fish Oil, and Turmeric to help prevent any potential cytokine storms and take long walks outside every day to get your circulation going and prevent possible blood clot formation from the inflammation C0VlD-19 causes.

I wouldn't VOLUNTARILY inject myself with a vaccine that was developed in less than a year for a virus that has a 99.9%+ survival rate. My immune system is not exactly normal so that would be a much bigger risk for me than C0VlD-19, which I may very well have had considering I engaged in sweet makeout sessions with my girlfriend while she was at her most infectious phase.

I also may have just gotten lucky, but in any case, I'm a paranoid conspiracy theorist and critical thinker before everything.

What if this vaccine, whether intentional or not, leads to 80-90% of the world's population becoming infertile? That would certainly solve a lot of issues and allow greater control, which I'm certain the majority of us here agree on - that the pandemic is being taken advantage of by those in power to acquire even greater power.
 

BellaPippin

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What if this vaccine, whether intentional or not, leads to 80-90% of the world's population becoming infertile? That would certainly solve a lot of issues and allow greater control, which I'm certain the majority of us here agree on - that the pandemic is being taken advantage of by those in power to acquire even greater power.

Someone watched "Utopia" :p

That said your point stands I just had to lol
 
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