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Start your own E-Commerce Store: Follow my Progress

JasonR

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I'll be using this thread to update my progress on starting a new e-commerce store and business. Here's some background on me:

I'm 27, college educated (Economics, Cal Poly SLO 2009), have less than $1500 in the bank, and currently have a full time job. I'm single, without kids, little debt (under $3k), I don't own a home (I rent), and keep my life as simple and expense free as possible (while still having some expenditure for fun). I have over 5 years of experience in the e-commerce field. Previous websites I've worked on are Poly Performance and Starwest Botanicals (my current employer). My boss from Poly Performance is a mentor of mine; he started his e-commerce business from nothing a little over ten years ago, and he's doing quite well now.

This thread isn't a straight up how to guide; this is how I'm doing it, the roadblocks I've run in to, and how I've handled it. I'm going to throw somethings at you that some of you probably won't understand. That's ok...it happens. Ask me questions, or Google it.

My short term goal is to earn enough money from this business to quit my job and work on it full time
.

My long term goal is to build the business to $5 million in sales in 5 years. I will do this by growing the initial e-commerce site, and/or expanding into new niches.

I am prepared to do whatever it takes, to not have much of a social life, and to lose out on some fun to get ahead in life and be able to free myself of having to work for someone and to free myself from having to work my whole life.

I don't know what's going to happen. I could fail. I could have tremendous success. I'm hoping for tremendous success. But here's what I do know. I will do my very best to succeed in this venture. If I don't see it becoming as successful as I want it to be, I'm going to find a way out and pursue another venture. I have had one previous business venture which failed, and was a huge learning experience. Here's to failing forward.

Let's get started.
 
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snowbank

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have less than $1500 in the bank.....I don't own a home

My long term goal is to build the business to $5 million in sales in 5 years.

This is not a goal, this is a dream.

What do I mean by that?

This is the equivalent to the guys who write up the million year business plans. They don't really mean anything, because they have 0 idea where they'll be in X amount of years.

If you have $1500 to your name, you have a lot to learn about money. I don't mean that negatively- that's totally fine. Most people who became successful started with $1500 to their name at one point.

But... as you learn how to make money, maybe you'll learn that being in that space is not a great use of your time. Or maybe you'll find you'd have to do things like have 20 employees to be that size in that space, and wouldn't like that. Who knows.

My point is- it's a dream, because you have ZERO idea how to turn that into $5 million today.

So it's just a dream.

It's not a good goal unless you can say -- "I want to make X, and here's EXACTLY how I'm going to do it." Then you can break down certain benchmarks you're hitting to make sure that you hit your goal.

Not only do you not have that, it's not even possible at the point you're at right now.

Figure out how you can make $10k or whatever. Set up benchmarks that allow you to hit that goal.

A year from now as long as you don't quit like 99.99% of the other "DREAM" threads, you may have an entirely different idea as to where the best use of your time is, and how to hit a 6 or 7 figure target.

Right now, focus on your much smaller goal -- which is a great one by the way. Break down EXACTLY how much that is, and figure out how many items you'd have to sell per month to do that. Then, find out how much traffic you'd have to have based on estimated conversions to get THAT. Then, you're starting to have something you can work with.

Good luck.
 
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JasonR

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Step 1: Finding and choosing your niche.

This is something I struggled with. I held on to an idea when I really should have explored others. You do not have to do what you love to make millions. You do need to have a passion for business, and be absolutely driven.

I linked to a great e-book in another thread, but here it is again:
http://www.ecommercefuel.com/profitable-ecommerce-ebook/ You'll have to sign up for the newsletter, but it's good.

This is a good read, for sure. A great place to start.

Step 2: Research that niche. Search Google. Use Google's keyword tool: https://adwords.google.com/o/KeywordTool (get very familiar with this tool. See who's ranking and why. Can you beat them? How many competitors are out there? When I "discovered" my niche, I was shocked at the lack of good competition. My niche is a decently wide niche (thousands of products). And no, I'm not disclosing my niche, website, or brand name just yet. ;)

Step 3: Found a niche? Register a domain name. I prefer Godaddy (I recently used NameCheap and have used Enom, I now have domains spread across 3 registrars, not fun). I hate how Godaddy tries to upsell you on it's CRAP, but just buy the domain name from them and that's it. Also, many tutorials on how to change DNS settings, mail exchanger settings, etc. are written for Godaddy.
-DO NOT use private registration. I believe Google uses this to check for spammy domains.
-DO NOT buy a domain name stuffed with keywords and hyphens.
-DO buy a domain name that's brandable. IE Zappos, Vigilant (thanks Vigilante), etc. I choose a brandable domain with my main keyword inside of it.
-DO buy a .com domain name if at all possible.

Also, do not be afraid to make an offer on a domain name someone else is squatting on. I've purchased one domain successful this way. However, if it's a GREAT domain name, prepare to pay.

I wouldn't purchase hosting from Godaddy. And you definitely shouldn't purchase any sort of hosting package until you figure out what shopping cart you're going to go with.

Download and read the The Beginner's Guide to SEO. Read it, know it, keep it handy. Start following the SEOMoz Blog.
 

JasonR

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My second mistake.

I'm going to jump into my second mistake: choosing a niche that, in my opinion, is over saturated (now) and complicated (legally). I wanted to turn my hobby into an e-commerce business, and really believed it could work. In fact I still think there might be room for it, but I now realize I don't have the capital or desire to pursue this particular niche. Rewind to a year ago, and I spent thousands of hours writing a business plan, marketing plan, seeking funding, and COMPLETELY designing the site in Photoshop. Have you ever designed a complete e-commerce in Photoshop? It can take hundreds if not thousands of hours. I found out that the market for this particular niche is pretty damn saturated. I also found out that I would need a lot of capital, and I would have to wade through a lot of legal bullshit to start the business. So, I almost wasted a year on that project BEFORE doing my research and due diligence. This was a huge mistake and caused me to lose countless of hours on this project. I was also concerned about getting everything right before I could into business and make my first sale. Another huge mistake. I also spend $1150 to acquire a domain name, $500 on a logo, and countless hours of my time designing the site and talking to developers.

Long story short: research your niche FIRST, see what it will take to jump in (can you drop ship, are there legal restrictions on your niche, do you require a store front, will you need a lot of capital) BEFORE spending any extra time designing logos, buying domain names, designing websites, etc.
 

JasonR

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Here's a quick tip that could VASTLY improve or alter your search engine rankings. Canonicalization of your base URL.

In my example (and with most e-commerce stores) most websites/stores will have several root URLs. In my example I have these:
http://mystore.com
http://www.mystore.com
http://mystore.com/admin.php
http://www.mystore.com/admin.php

There's 4 URLs right there for the SAME page. Not only are those 4 URLs for the same content, if you don't fix the issue you're going to multiple EVERY PAGE (category pages, product pages, content pages, etc.) by a multiple of 4. So if you have 1,000 pages on your site, you'll now have 4,000 pages. Hopefully, you can see this is absolutely critical problem to fix. Also, it's often a problem overlooked by many websites.

Here's how you fix it (and what I just did to my site). You'll need to 301 redirect all of those URLs to a single root URL. I choose "www.mystore.com" as my root URL, and redirect all other variants to this URL. So "mystore.com/index.php" automatically gets redirected to "www.mystore.com" etc.

You can do this by editing the .htaccess file on your server. I screwed mine up while editing it (first time editing the htaccess file), so I had to have my host help me.
 

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I'll be using this thread to update my progress on starting a new e-commerce store and business. Here's some background on me:

I'm 27, college educated (Economics, Cal Poly SLO 2009), have less than $1500 in the bank, and currently have a full time job. I'm single, without kids, little debt (under $3k), I don't own a home (I rent), and keep my life as simple and expense free as possible (while still having some expenditure for fun). I have over 5 years of experience in the e-commerce field. Previous websites I've worked on are Poly Performance and Starwest Botanicals (my current employer). My boss from Poly Performance is a mentor of mine; he started his e-commerce business from nothing a little over ten years ago, and he's doing quite well now.

This thread isn't a straight up how to guide; this is how I'm doing it, the roadblocks I've run in to, and how I've handled it. I'm going to throw somethings at you that some of you probably won't understand. That's ok...it happens. Ask me questions, or Google it.

My short term goal is to earn enough money from this business to quit my job and work on it full time
.

My long term goal is to build the business to $5 million in sales in 5 years. I will do this by growing the initial e-commerce site, and/or expanding into new niches.

I am prepared to do whatever it takes, to not have much of a social life, and to lose out on some fun to get ahead in life and be able to free myself of having to work for someone and to free myself from having to work my whole life.

I don't know what's going to happen. I could fail. I could have tremendous success. I'm hoping for tremendous success. But here's what I do know. I will do my very best to succeed in this venture. If I don't see it becoming as successful as I want it to be, I'm going to find a way out and pursue another venture. I have had one previous business venture which failed, and was a huge learning experience. Here's to failing forward.

Let's get started.


I started with 1/10th the money you have. 5 years later sales of 2.5 million. Can you do 5 million I truly believe you can.

Will you? None of us will know for another 5 years.

Best of luck to you!
 

JasonR

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Just to show no cart is good "out-of-the-box" for SEO (even though Magento says it is), I discovered yet ANOTHER home page URL yesterday. Apparently the URL key for Magento's home page is "www.mystore.com/home" (really, Magento?). So I had to set up another 301 redirect from "www.mystore.com/home" to "www.mystore.com"

Edit: I was at the hospital yesterday for most of the day - I'm a newly minted Uncle. :)
Back to work!
 

JasonR

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Another quick update:

Got my business license, Resellers permit, etc. Got Quickbooks up and running. Still need to record some more expenses (highly irritating, lol).

Got my logo done (Elance, $50). It's not amazing, but it works for now. Went through and took care of the transactional emails, learning more about Magento, and also stumbled upon some more Magento Issues. I'm going to keep working on them, but I'm not going to let them hold me up from opening my store.

I still have my site blocked from Google using robots.txt. I'm going to write my category descriptions (main keywords I want to rank for, etc.) and then unleash the search engines on my site while I'm adding product. So it's sort of a "soft" launch, but I don't expect much traffic, It's just to get me in the index. Once I have 100-500 products loaded, I'll launch the site and get the marketing up and running.

Now I've got to open my accounts with my dropshippers. So much work it's unbelievable. Part of it is the learning curve with Magento, and part of it is fixing Magento's issues (SEO, Layered Nav, etc.). But hey - I'll be able to launch a second store in much less time.

I'm also moving this week...so I'm crazy busy. I'm also doing this while working a full time job. So yes, I'm very busy, miss out on a lot of fun things, but I have to make sacrifices somewhere. Just letting you know it can be done even if you feel like you have no time or are working full time

Back to work!
 

Brander

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99Designs, but at $300 I think my money is better spent elsewhere at this point

A little trick I used to do when I was starting out in Saas and didn't have much disposable income was to type the logo in Fireworks myself (you can use Gimp) in just letters and have a designer "finish" the logo for me. The finishing of it was never more than $25, while the prices to do it from the start (typing :) ) was almost always $50-100.
 

JasonR

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Setting up my Site Structure (SEO)

Most of you probably know that the structure of your site and SEO friendly URLs factor into search engine rankings. Here's how I'll be setting up my site and why.

My root url, as discussed, will be "www.mystore.com"

All CMS/content pages will be "www.mystore.com/content-page.html"
All product pages will be "www.mystore.com/product-page.html"
All category pages will be "www.mystore.com/category/"
All brand pages will be "www.mystore.com/brand/"

Pretty simple! The reason I have set the product pages up WITHOUT the category URL is simple, yet important. So what happens when you move a product page that resides in "www.mystore.com/category/product.html"? You now have to 301 redirect the old page, and, honestly, the extra keyword or two in the product URL isn't going to significantly impact your rankings. Also, what happens when you have a product in multiple categories when you have the category in your product URL page? Which category do you use? That's why I recommend not using product page URLs like "www.mystore.com/category/product.html."

The only thing I'm considering is possibly using ".html" instead of "/" for my category and brand pages (to keep things consistent). However, Google doesn't care if you're using a "/" ".html" ".asp" ".php" at the end of your URLs.

Also, I will make sure to block specific pages (the cart page, check out pages, login pages, etc.) from the search engine indexes by blocking them in the robots.txt file. The robots.txt file is very important, so learn to edit and modify this file as needed (it's very easy). I can post a couple links to articles on the subject.

I hope all of this makes sense. If not, you haven't read and don't understand the Beginners guide to SEO that I posted.
 

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. I was just telling my girlfriend a little while ago, "I wish we wouldn't have told anyone about this, in case it's an epic fail." lol we've slowly but surely let our plans slip to the majority of our family.
Dude.. Sometimes this can be a blessing in disguise. I have actually made an effort this time to tell family and friends. Why? Because it is my way of forcing myself to follow through with what I have set my eyes on. With more people expecting you to fail (lol) - the more determined you will be to prove them all wrong!
 
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JasonR

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First website was in the Firearms industry. GunWarehouse.com. Here's a screen shot of the design I labored forever on.
 

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JasonR

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Quick update: I was traveling this weekend, sorry for the lack of updates.

Got approved for one supplier/dropshipper! I can finally start loading product - hopefully going to utilize excel for uploading products.

Paid a company to do some work on my site ($90), regarding the previously mentioned category issue. Funny, they were all over me before I sent them payment. As soon as I sent them payment, I haven't heard a WORD, and they haven't asked for any of my site files, etc. They're fairly well known in the Magento community, so I find it pretty odd. They aren't a US company. So, if they don't respond soon, I'm going to try and get my money back.

Pisses me off - I'm a paying customer, want to get the work done asap, company keeps contacting me to pay them, I pay them, then they drag their feet (or maybe bail on me altogether?).

Will update asap.

Edit: I also have a newsletter sign up on my front page. I attempted to get MailCheat(Chimp) integrated with Magento (MailCheat(Chimp) is my favorite e-mail marketing management software), however the free extension took down the whole back end of my store. I had my host (Nexcess) restore my site from the previous night's back up. Long story short, I need to get dev environment up and running, and I probably won't have time for email marketing right off the beginning. The important part is to start collecting those email addresses. I can figure out a way to import them into MailCheat(Chimp) later. I'll open a ticket with the dev to see if I can find an issue.

I'll also need to purchase an SSL Cert, and find a suitable payment gateway.
 

JasonR

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This is really confusing. I called San Diego recorder office and they said DBAs are not necessary. But when I went to the bank yesterday, the banker said I have to have a DBA. So, let's say on my business license is shop123.com, but I want to branch out and sell pet supplies under pets123.com, and then books at books123. Do I just set up shop123.com DBA pets123 and books123?

Jason, it's good that you have computer programming skills. I am so lost as to how to import product feed to my site. I have been watching youtube tutorials and read a ton...... I might need to hire someone to do it for me.

My bank (Wells Fargo) didn't require me to file a DBA to open business accounts, but I believe to I need have a DBA to have the account, checks, etc. in my business name. My city didn't require me to file a DBA for anything.

Susan, I only have a little bit of programming knowledge (HTML, CSS, and I can understand a little javascript and PHP logic). I know enough to get by, and to do simple things, and I know enough usually where to start looking and Googling. I would at least learn HTML/CSS, as you'll get far just knowing both of those. You'll always use HTML if you run a website, whether it's editing category descriptions, static pages, e-mails, etc. It's not hard to learn, and you can find many good tutorials on HTML/CSS.

Also, I'd be careful with product feeds. I'm not sure, exactly, what you're using them for, but part of adding value to your site is having EXCELLENT and INFORMATIVE product listings. Anyone can put a product feed from a distributor and not add any real value. However, if you're using the product feeds for inventory syncing, that's awesome!

Just make sure your product listings stand out, and have unique content on them. Make sure you provide the customer with EVERYTHING they need to know on the product page and website that they need to know to order the item(s).
 

JasonR

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Shopping Cart Options

I'm going to be using Magento for my shopping cart. I researched Big Commerce and Volusion, was going to use Big Commerce. Big Commerce had a couple of SEO issues I wasn't happy about, and the one big glaring issue that I could see with Big Commerce was a lack of successful stores (not that there aren't any, but not that I found). Some of the Big Commerce Stores look great, but I'm more concerned about the whole package.

Here's my opinion on some of the carts:

X-Cart: Robust, powerful platform, but it's going to be a thing of the past soon. Qualiteam is not innovating or keeping up with web trends, and they are VERY difficult to deal with. In fact, they caused a breach of security on one of my employer's websites (more on that later). Also has a level of complexity, and needs several plug ins for SEO, product feeds, etc.

Big Commerce: I'd probably pick Big Commerce over Volusion. Pretty damn good for a hosted solution, easy to get a store up and running.

Volusion: I wasn't a fan of the pricing options or the layout options of the website. From what I remember, the on-page SEO didn't impress me.

Magento: Easily the most powerful cart on this list. The community version is free and open source. However, all of this comes at a cost of complexity. Not easy to set up, not easy to use, and a steep learning curve. Magento extensions can cause conflicts with each other, and no official support on the community version. I feel this is the best choice for me, as I have experience with complex carts and the patience to figure it out. I've also used Magento a little bit already, and the company I'm working for is using Magento.

Long story short, I'll be using Magento.
 

JasonR

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Posted a job on Elance for logo design. I should be able to get a decent logo made up for $50.00. I didn't have much luck when I posted the same job a week ago (designer couldn't put anything together I liked), but he did refund my money. However, it was about a weeks worth of wasted time as far as a logo goes. I'd really like to bid the job out on 99Designs, but at $300 I think my money is better spent elsewhere at this point.
 

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Also registered social media pages in my company name:
Twitter
Facebook
Pinterest
Google Plus
Youtube
Vimeo

Don't think I'm missing any key social media sites?

Edit: Also set up Google Analytics tracking in Magento (easy so far) - I may have to do some extra work to track conversions.

here's a handy tool for that KnowEm Username Search: Social Media, Domains and Trademarks
I wouldn't use the paid version, but the free checking tool is great (well, maybe, if you can afford it, it saves you a lot of time on the minor sites).
 
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JasonR

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Rethink whether or not this is the right product for you. Remember FASTLANE. Can this process be systemized and easily taught to others so they can do it once you scale up? If not then you're not FL.

Also, the reason many of us get into ecommerce is the ability to systemize, scale and involve ourselves in the process as little as possible. If you can't just drop your product in a box and ship you're not taking advantage of the true beauty of ecommerce. If assembling your product takes any sort of specialization, I'd come up with a new product.

I'm not saying you can't be successful but when you get into specialized human assembly, you defeat the beauty, simplicity and affordability of ecommerce. You then have to have human capital. Human capital means financial capital; It means time capital in training. It means government regulations with employment. It's those very reasons I got into ecommerce.

Good luck and I hope everything works out well for you.

I knew this post like this was coming. What niche is perfect? What niche doesn't require some sort of expertise and/or set up? I used to work for Tennis-Warehouse.com (35 million a year in sales when I was working there), and they have sales people who string racquets for orders in between calls (professional setup).

If I stopped because my product needs to be set up by a "professional" (which employees can be trained to become professionals relatively quickly), then haven't I given up already? Find me a niche where it's as simple as putting products in a box and shipping it, and I'll show you a niche where everyone can enter and profits are relatively low.

What e-commerce store are you running, what do you sell, and how successful is it?

Edit: Fastlane is about being able to build wealth in a relatively short amount of time, nothing else. You are more or less talking about products like the 4 Hour Work Week promotes.
 
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That's where I'm at right now, I have to make a business account. What do you mean by business license? LLC?

Edit: I know how you feel. I get overwhelmed and have wanted to give up several times. I just keep pushing, though, and tell myself that's what separates fastlaners from the others. I was just telling my girlfriend a little while ago, "I wish we wouldn't have told anyone about this, in case it's an epic fail." lol we've slowly but surely let our plans slip to the majority of our family.
 

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James - I started this thread for several reasons. One...to keep me accountable. If no knows about my project, no one holds me accountable. Two - to journal my progress and to write my thoughts down. And three - to help others out.

Not that I need others to keep me accountable, but it helps.

Magento doesn't have a native blog feature built in. I'm going to use this FREE Blog Extension: AheadWorks Magento Blog Extension. Already downloaded, will configure it and install it asap. My only concern is if it will work with the theme I've installed.

I'm also going to pick up this extension relatively soon: Shop By Brands Magento Extension.

The one thing you need to be careful with Magento is the compatibility of extensions. Using too many (or a badly coded extension) can cause major compatibility issues with other extensions and the entire store itself. I'll be using as few extensions as possible, and always installing one at a time. When it's time to develop the site into something better (IE after I'm up and selling and have positive cash flow), then it's time to start customizing the website/Magento.

I'm also debating shortening the URL by using initials for the brand name. Hard to explain without giving the brand name - more on this later. I'm going to pick up the extra domain name anyways.

So - next week - get necessary business permits from the city, tax ID number, etc. Then get price lists / catalogs from drop shippers. Start adding product, researching which products to add first.
-Diving in and learning more about this niche to become an expert.
-Writing articles in the niche to attract Organic traffic. Lots and lots to write (buying guides, how to guides, etc).

My elance guy is working on the logo. Probably won't knock it out of the park, but will get me a decent logo to start with for $50.
 

JamesS88

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I got my logo on fiverr lol. She made two versions. She wanted my input for the first one as far as what I wanted it to be like. It turned out ok but not great. On the second one, I told her I trust her judgement and she could have full artistic freedom. She killed it that time. It's amazing what people on there will do for five bucks.
 
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JasonR

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If anyone is wondering what niche I'm in, you'll probably be shocked at how simple the niche is. I'm not doing anything special here, except for believing I can do better than what's out there right now. The websites in this niche are poorly developed, laid out, have poor rankings, and the owners just don't seem to understand SEO or the online world very well. I believe I can do much better.

Unfortunately, it's a bit more complicated than others - but - barriers to entry are a good thing.

Printed the user guide - lots of reading to do!
 
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PatrickP

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Thanks Patrick.

Sorry - I should clarify. I'm moving into one bedroom of a five bedroom house for $600/month. Not the whole house. I'm in Northern California at the moment.

I can't wait for the day I can own my own damn 5 bedroom house, and not treat it as a cash flowing asset (because it's not).



No worries. You will get there.

At the age of 35 I was renting a room by the month just like you. I brought everything I owned with me which was one bag of clothes. No bed, no dresser nothing. Funny thing I can't remember thinking I was poor or even feeling bad for myself. Not sure if that is because I had a positive attitude, I just never cared about possesions or if I now have a short memory lol
 

andviv

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I brought everything I owned with me which was one bag of clothes. No bed, no dresser nothing. Funny thing I can't remember thinking I was poor or even feeling bad for myself.
Same feeling here.

One bag with clothes.

A sleeping bag.

Sharing the trailer with another guy. I even shared my bedroom with somebody else for 9 weeks. Two sleeping bags, one next to the other.

I even now remain nostalgic about that... it was a great time.
 

JasonR

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Update: Now considering filing for an LLC out of state as it looks to be MUCH cheaper. Goods won't ship from the out-of-state address, but it's probably much better than starting a sole prop here. My Uncle is an attorney - will talk to him tonight.
 

JasonR

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Sorry - slow to update - too much work to do.

I sent my applications out (with completed business license) to distributors - waiting to get my dealer accounts open so I can start adding product.

Started writing category descriptions (for SEO purposes), uploaded my Robots.txt file so Google can now start indexing my site. Wrote a home page description (many e-commerce sites don't have much text on the home page, IMO this is a huge advantage for those with stores. Write good, optimized copy on your home page!). I'm going to pay a firm to make a couple of code modifications on my site (ie how Magento handles sub-categories under anchor categories - you'd have to know Magento to understand this), and also going to utilize a company to add some javascript to my site (I can't find where my theme is calling the javascript files).

I'm also figuring out Quickbooks, and how to enter my expenses, etc. Also trying to figure out the easiest way to record sales, COGS, etc. in Quickbooks without having to do it manually.

Pretty soon I'll be able to start adding products! Excited to launch this damn thing already! If you have any questions, please ask!

Edit: Also thinking about purchasing a Brand extension for Magento for brand pages. If you can outbrand the actual Brand on your own site, you can rank higher for that brand search on google than the actual brand itself. Ex: Zappo's brand pages are excellent. Again, this is for SEO/Marketing. The more pages you have with valuable content, the more likely you are to rank and attract natural traffic.
 
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JAJT

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Susan - if I recall correctly many states let you "assume" a DBA. However, if you want to open up legal accounts under that DBA (such as a bank account) you absolutely will require an official DBA.

In other words, if you want to put a logo on a page and go around saying that "shop123" is actually "pets123", that's fine. If you want to open up a bank account with "pets123" you need to file the DBA.
 

JasonR

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All in good time. I'll probably release it to the INSIDERS first for some feedback and constructive criticism.

I'm realizing that, although I've sacrificed SO much to take the Fastlane path, I am finding I still need to sacrifice. I'm sacrificing sleep, as I need as much time as possible to work on this project, and continue working a full time job. I got about 4 hours of sleep last night. Not complaining at all, just thinking out loud.
 

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