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RANT Reality catches up. (Rant about healthcare system)

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Kak

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LOL
"They get care and are billed later."

MURICA!

good post, spoken like a true believer of Ayn Rand's philosophy.

And, like typical USA fashion: "me me me me me me"
"why should I pay for someone else".
"it's not my problem they got shot in the face".

Exactly. Exactly right there is your problem.
"as long as I get mine".
And this is USA vs. rest of the world. Which coincides perfectly with what it's perfectly ok for someone to go bankrupt in the USA due to medical bills. Cause it's not your problem.
United we stand. Divided we fall.

Ayn Rand is one of my favorite authors. Atlas Shrugged one of my absolute favorite books. My only problem with Rand is that she didn’t have better tact and explain herself better.

We would have less people like you taking her out of context.

If you want a better explanation of rational self interest. Might I suggest Human Action by Ludwig Von Mises.

Great post though, I can’t argue with all that sense you made there! I mean wow, “Murcia” I never thought of it that way! And AyN RaND is bAdd” wow. I’ll just take your word for it. I hate Ayn Rand now. :rofl:

There are two kinds of people in this world. Makers and takers. You are just one of the takers and you justify it with this nonsense with a notion of selflessness. It isn’t selflessness to give away someone else’s money by taking it at gunpoint. It is virtue signaling.

It still isn’t my problem if someone I’ve never met gets shot in the face. It also isn’t my problem if they choose not to buy insurance. Make no mistake, it is a CHOICE. It isn’t my problem if they end up in medical debt because of their decision not to buy insurance. That’s what insurance is for, the unexpected, and I would never force them to buy insurance. That is their choice, not mine.
 

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daivey

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Ayn Rand is one of my favorite authors. Atlas Shrugged one of my absolute favorite books. My only problem with Rand is that she didn’t have better tact and explain herself better.

We would have less people like you taking her out of context.

If you want a better explanation of rational self interest. Might I suggest Human Action by Ludwig Von Mises.

Great post though, I can’t argue with all that sense you made there! “aUn rAynd is BaydddddDDddD!!!!!” :rofl:
I know it is your favorite book, you didn't even have to tell me. I actually never said Ayn Rand is bad.

Ayn Rands philosophy was always one of pure capitalism. Problem is, pure capitalism won't exist. In Ayn Rands world, all the capitalists are these great unsung heroes. In reality, you get a lot of greed mixed into that pie and sociopaths to boot.

Those "costs" come down, but they come down at a price. The price that society pays for those profits is:
profit > people.
And yes, I'm over generalizing here, but now we're talking about Ayn Rand... Sure, it's not all bad, but, just look at the Walmarts, Amazons, and pretty much any other major business entity.

You see, the part that Ayn Rand doesn't talk about is how those great corporations building all that wealth, like to pump their untreated sewage into the lake.... And then someone 1,000 km way "well it's not my problem".. except when their whole ecosystem now poisoned.

So this is the problem with Ayn Rand. There was no balance. But, I digress. It's good to have extremes sometimes, that way you end up in the middle.

And the middle is socialized medicine. Which it's likely USA will move to once UBI is instituted. Which is a good thing for USA, less crime and poverty.
 

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Dude the more posts of yours I read the more I am dumbfounded.

Are you 16?

If you “work harder” and amass a wealth of $20M, which is totally possible, what concern is it of yours to pay for a $300,000 operation?

I don’t think you understand locus of control.
He's 35/36. Given the lack of threads he's made on the forum out of his 7 years being here, it seems like he's not committed enough into finding the answers to his road blocks to achieve the Fastlane. From reading his past posts, he seems too comfortable and complacent with his current life situation. He wants the benefits of the Fastlane but not the process. He thinks the only suitable business he can do is a web based business, while ignoring all of the other businesses that he could potentially do that may not exactly fit his skill set in the present moment, but could be learned if he's willing to put in the work to learn skills that your maximum potential can get you to. But tbh if you're not achieving the Fastlane or choose not to achieve it, don't hate on the people who DID take the initiative to achieve it. Process is the reason why success eludes most people. The more you avoid it, the more success will. If you want the Fastlane outcome without the process, then the lottery is your only hope. @daivey
 

Matt Sun

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Chemo is basically mustard gas. It was developed from it. Google it if you dont belive me. So basically this guy spent his lives savings to poison his wife to save her from cancer. Kind of madening, though he admits his mistake: he did everything he was told to do. No self responsability on his part.

should the state pay for my mustard gas I would still say no thanks and be as responsable as I can of my own and my loved ones health.
And yeah, there is no capitalism in the health system since cheap and effective cures are supressed by regulation in order to keep the cancer business making fortunes. “There is more poeple living from cancer than diying from it”. I think a nobel prize in medicine said that.
 

NCNY

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What's the point defending hospitals and insurance companies that charge 1000X multiples? US citizens already pay the highest amount of tax in the world for healthcare, yet you pay so much more for healthcare in insurance and out of pocket.
 

daivey

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He's 35/36. Given the lack of threads he's made on the forum out of his 7 years being here, it seems like he's not committed enough into finding the answers to his road blocks to achieve the Fastlane. From reading his past posts, he seems too comfortable and complacent with his current life situation. He wants the benefits of the Fastlane but not the process. He thinks the only suitable business he can do is a web based business, while ignoring all of the other businesses that he could potentially do that may not exactly fit his skill set in the present moment, but could be learned if he's willing to put in the work to learn skills that your maximum potential can get you to. But tbh if you're not achieving the Fastlane or choose not to achieve it, don't hate on the people who DID take the initiative to achieve it. Process is the reason why success eludes most people. The more you avoid it, the more success will. If you want the Fastlane outcome without the process, then the lottery is your only hope. @daivey

The biggest irony here is your user name, being "faux pas".

The fastest fastlaning there is, is going over someone's previous post to 1-up them and put them down cause you don't like they are providing you an opposing point of view.

Rather than stick to the argument at hand, you'd rather dig up dirt, which is just mind boggling to me lol. I actually never said that people shouldn't work hard, and strive to make money, or, live the fastlane/become the fastlane lifestyle.

Actually, most of you trolls assumed that because I have a different perspective of how health care should be run - and how people should be treated overall - you all decided to jump down my throat.

One of the other super fastlane peoples called me a douchebag and a moron! I'm impressed. I guess I am a douchebag for suggesting that people that get sick from serious illnesses shouldn't have to go bankrupt.???

Imagine that... I am the douchebag, for merely suggesting that there is a BETTER WAY than letting your fellow Americans, go bankrupt. Instead, you keep pounding the pavement: people should "work hard" and "take responsibility".

Let them eat cake...as the say goes.
 

SteveO

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Actually, most of you trolls assumed that because I have a different perspective of how health care should be run - and how people should be treated overall - you all decided to jump down my throat
Do you really believe that this is why people are hammering you? Perhaps you should take a look at your own words.
 

Matt Sun

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Actually, most of you trolls assumed that because I have a different perspective of how health care should be run - and how people should be treated overall - you all decided to jump down my throat.
I more so believe is because, out of the goodness of your heart, you advocate for stealing (aka taxes). And yes, around this forum. thankfully, stealing is wrong.
 

daivey

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Do you really believe that this is why people are hammering you? Perhaps you should take a look at your own words.
By hammer, you mean putting words in my mouth and using strawman arguments?
Cause I didn't put words in of your mouths. I just pointed out the absurdity of what you were saying.

Winners!

like I said, LET THEM EAT CAKE
 
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daivey

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I more so believe is because, out of the goodness of your heart, you advocate for stealing (aka taxes). And yes, around this forum. thankfully, stealing is wrong.
damn bro, taxes are stealing. I guess we went full libertarian now.

Which unsung hero of the capitalist manifesto are you?
Ayn Rand
Peter Schiff
Ron Paul

Though mind you, I like all 3 of those people. I just find it funny when extremists (aka you) believe this dogma like it's gospel.
like I said, and I'll repeat it.
BALANCE.
 
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FauxPas

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The biggest irony here is your user name, being "faux pas".

The fastest fastlaning there is, is going over someone's previous post to 1-up them and put them down cause you don't like they are providing you an opposing point of view.

Rather than stick to the argument at hand, you'd rather dig up dirt, which is just mind boggling to me lol. I actually never said that people shouldn't work hard, and strive to make money, or, live the fastlane/become the fastlane lifestyle.

Actually, most of you trolls assumed that because I have a different perspective of how health care should be run - and how people should be treated overall - you all decided to jump down my throat.

One of the other super fastlane peoples called me a douchebag and a moron! I'm impressed. I guess I am a douchebag for suggesting that people that get sick from serious illnesses shouldn't have to go bankrupt.???

Imagine that... I am the douchebag, for merely suggesting that there is a BETTER WAY than letting your fellow Americans, go bankrupt. Instead, you keep pounding the pavement: people should "work hard" and "take responsibility".

Let them eat cake...as the say goes.
It's not really what you're saying. It's HOW you're saying it. If you want to have a meaningful open dialogue with people you must do so in a constructive, formal manner. They way you are doing it right now is grossly childish and ineffective. If you're really 35+ you ought to have the life experience already to know this.
 

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SteveO

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It still isn’t my problem if someone I’ve never met gets shot in the face. It also isn’t my problem if they choose not to buy insurance. Make no mistake, it is a CHOICE. It isn’t my problem if they end up in medical debt because of their decision not to buy insurance. That’s what insurance is for, the unexpected, and I would never force them to buy insurance. That is their choice, not mine.
Agree. The people below certain levels of income frequently have options as well.
 

daivey

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It's not really what you're saying. It's HOW you're saying it. If you want to have a meaningful open dialogue with people you must do so in a constructive, formal manner. They way you are doing it right now is grossly childish and ineffective. If you're really 35+ you ought to have the life experience already to know this.
lol yeah bro, super formal and constructive when you just casually say "let them die" though? you can't connect the dots on why my posts turned from friendly to "coming in hot" as per Kak's words?

go back and see the first few posts.. wasn't till all the mic drop moments: "individualism vs. collectivism" and "you just dont get it"...

great debate and conversation! I just don't get it.. I just don't get why someone should not go broke, fixing a broken leg.
I just don't get why, it's not my problem if someone down the street gets hit by a car and goes broke going to the hospital.
I just don't get why someone who lost all their life savings trying to save their wife, is bitter... Oh no, I just don't get it.. Yeah that guy should be so happy he is now bankrupt but is cancer free until the next recurrence.. Then what???

but bro, I just' don't get it!
It's not my problem!!1111
Super mature conversation we are having. It's not my problem... yeah true, life is hard... but sheesh.

ultimately what I gained here today is that no one here is looking for a constructive conversation. You're looking for an echo chamber of why this broken system is great - for people to agree with you.

hence your "mic drop moments" like:
'responsibility'
'work harder'
'individualism'
blah blah blah.

Seriously, you're calling my childish and ineffective, but I'm just giving it right back at y'all for being worse. If you don't think things like "it's not my problem" is not childish and ineffective, then we are just on a different levels.

As for my life experiences..yeah bro, my life experiences are enough to know when I'm talking to sociopaths that won't bend over to pick up an old lady that's fallen over.
Cause it's not your problem, right?

But alas, this is the internet.
 
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FauxPas

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lol yeah bro, super formal and constructive when you just casually say "let them die" though? you can't connect the dots on why my posts turned from friendly to "coming in hot" as per Kak's words?

go back and see the first few posts.. wasn't till all the mic drop moments: "individualism vs. collectivism" and "you just dont get it"...

great debate and conversation! I just don't get it.. I just don't get why someone should not go broke, fixing a broken leg.
I just don't get why, it's not my problem if someone down the street gets hit by a car and goes broke going to the hospital.
I just don't get why someone who lost all their life savings trying to save their wife, is bitter... Oh no, I just don't get it.. Yeah that guy should be so happy he is now bankrupt but is cancer free until the next recurrence.. Then what???

but bro, I just' don't get it!
It's not my problem!!1111
Super mature conversation we are having. It's not my problem... yeah true, life is hard... but sheesh.

ultimately what I gained here today is that no one here is looking for a constructive conversation. You're looking for an echo chamber of why this broken system is great - for people to agree with you.

hence your "mic drop moments" like:
'responsibility'
'work harder'
'individualism'
blah blah blah.

Seriously, you're calling my childish and ineffective, but I'm just giving it right back at y'all for being worse. If you don't think things like "it's not my problem" is not childish and ineffective, then we are just on a different levels.

As for my life experiences..yeah bro, my life experiences are enough to know when I'm talking to sociopaths that won't bend over to pick up an old lady that's fallen over.
Cause it's not your problem, right?

But alas, this is the internet.
I actually don't agree with the "Pick yourself up by the boostrap" mentality for the common man. If you want to get rich? Sure. But if you just want to make a decent living and have the decent means to take care of yourself, then absolutely not.
 

daivey

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I actually don't agree with the "Pick yourself up by the boostrap" mentality for the common man. If you want to get rich? Sure. But if you just want to make a decent living and have the decent means to take care of yourself, then absolutely not.
but dude that's exactly what I've been saying, just talking about healthcare.

not everyone can make $20 million dollars as it was so casually laid out before by another poster.
If you have $20 million dollars, then $300,000 for a surgery is no big deal. Sure.... maybe.

But the average person, the average person that can't make $20 million.. The average person that can't even crack $50,000 annual income... And is in the rat race and spends $100,000 of their life savings for an operation? Is that a pill worth swallowing as a society?

I'm not ok with that. I'm not ok knowing that my neighbor might very well go broke/lose their home cause of cancer.
How f*cked is that to sit back and say casually "not my problem"?

Is that what this forum is?
yeah man, capitalism is great. and yeah technology helps bring that stuff. and yes, we need people to be motivated to create cures/ and invent things.. But we also can't be so crass that we're worried about f*cking chicken pox bankrupting your family.

But anyway, i think ive made my point and now it's just kicking dead horse.
 

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but dude that's exactly what I've been saying, just talking about healthcare.

not everyone can make $20 million dollars as it was so casually laid out before by another poster.
If you have $20 million dollars, then $300,000 for a surgery is no big deal. Sure.... maybe.

But the average person, the average person that can't make $20 million.. The average person that can't even crack $50,000 annual income... And is in the rat race and spends $100,000 of their life savings for an operation? Is that a pill worth swallowing as a society?

I'm not ok with that. I'm not ok knowing that my neighbor might very well go broke/lose their home cause of cancer.
How f*cked is that to sit back and say casually "not my problem"?

Is that what this forum is?
yeah man, capitalism is great. and yeah technology helps bring that stuff. and yes, we need people to be motivated to create cures/ and invent things.. But we also can't be so crass that we're worried about f*cking chicken pox bankrupting your family.

But anyway, i think ive made my point and now it's just kicking dead horse.


I don’t actually think people are disagreeing with you as much as you think. There seems to be quite a consensus here that the US healthcare system is FUBAR.

What most people are taking issue with is the blame being cast by the post in the OP. As @MJ DeMarco pointed out, the US has a federally mandated out of pocket maximum of $8,550 per year for an individual. In which case the person posting that either A)only had that much in savings/home equity after 20 years or B) knowingly pick some obscure and really shitty insurance plan. (Or never in fact had any). In either scenario, the healthcare system did not break them, their own choices did. Getting hundreds of thousands of dollars in treatments for a maximum cost of $8,550 is not such a raw deal as that guy made it out to seem. It’s possible that I’m missing something there but I can’t think of what option C could possibly be.

What @Thoelt53 is saying is that if his wife had cancer and the worst thing that happened was they spent all their money or declared bankruptcy then he would be thrilled. You can make more money and/or come back from a BK. (Or multiple times and still become president) You cannot bring your dead wife back to life so the perspective and priorities of the poster seem to be misaligned.

For what it’s worth, I happen to agree with you wholeheartedly that the US system is an embarrassment. My main gripe against single payer is that I bear as much or more responsibility financially as honey boo boo down the street who has large chocolate milkshakes 3x a day and thinks that they are entitled to pay the exact same amount as the person who eats 10x servings of veggies a day and exercises 5 times a week. If our government or citizens actually cared about their own health as much as they do criticizing the system and lining their pockets then bring on the Medicare for all because people will require much much less care and costs should be driven considerably lower. We all know that will never happen though so the best we can do as husbands, wives, fathers and mothers is to make sure our families are taken care of, eating well and getting sunlight and exercise…ie. personal responsibility.
 
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Thoelt53

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The biggest irony here is your user name, being "faux pas".

The fastest fastlaning there is, is going over someone's previous post to 1-up them and put them down cause you don't like they are providing you an opposing point of view.

Rather than stick to the argument at hand, you'd rather dig up dirt, which is just mind boggling to me lol. I actually never said that people shouldn't work hard, and strive to make money, or, live the fastlane/become the fastlane lifestyle.

Actually, most of you trolls assumed that because I have a different perspective of how health care should be run - and how people should be treated overall - you all decided to jump down my throat.

One of the other super fastlane peoples called me a douchebag and a moron! I'm impressed. I guess I am a douchebag for suggesting that people that get sick from serious illnesses shouldn't have to go bankrupt.???

Imagine that... I am the douchebag, for merely suggesting that there is a BETTER WAY than letting your fellow Americans, go bankrupt. Instead, you keep pounding the pavement: people should "work hard" and "take responsibility".

Let them eat cake...as the say goes.
No one called you a douchebag or a moron. My comment was about the guy in OP’s post.
 

Antifragile

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@daivey You quote authors, you pump your chest trying to sound so much more intelligent than anyone disagreeing with you and yet in the process of doing that; it is apparent that all those countless hours spent reading have not paid off.

I've once told you to read the OP and responses again and carefully. No one said US system was perfect.

Then I even copied and highlighted for you a major (flawed/false) generalization you made, but like those fools who can't read past page one of a book without skipping ahead because they don't want to give credit or hold themselves accountable - You ignored it again!

Copying it 2nd time:
but yes.. your only choice in America is make FU money, or yeah, die of tiny tumor that you would have removed for free even in the hospitals in Favellas of Brazil....... literally ANY country in the world can do cancer treatements nowadays and u dont have to be a trillionaire to do it..

Not all countries can provide the technology, let alone provide community health care for free that cures cancers. What you said is idiotic!

but dude that's exactly what I've been saying, just talking about healthcare.
Now here we are- Round 3: And while pretending as if I (and others) somehow misunderstood you "just talking about healthcare" when really YOU are just selectively choosing an exit from your own flip-flopping.

Somewhere else you said you were for "balance" and used answers like "it depends". At the same time you didn't even get that when I showed you flaws in Canadian healthcare, it was a clear example of nothing being perfect, example of the very argument you were trying to make. Instead, you misrepresented it as me preferring US system (as I make the argument you can't read, I now I understand that I must spoon feed you - you are wrong, I do not prefer US healthcare system to Canadian).

I stand by my 3x comments to you @daivey - you need to learn to read and comprehend what is being said. Your chest pumping, book quoting won't win arguments. And later escaping with "just taking about healthcare" does not fool me one bit.
 

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you're assuming that in any other country you would die? lol....so be grateful you didn't die, in america, but are now bankrupt??

but yes.. your only choice in America is make FU money, or yeah, die of tiny tumor that you would have removed for free even in the hospitals in Favellas of Brazil....... literally ANY country in the world can do cancer treatements nowadays and u dont have to be a trillionaire to do it..

but yes, tell me more about individualism
The US, despite its faults in healthcare, is home to the majority of the best hospitals.

I can’t find international rankings of children’s hospitals, but Boston Children’s Hospital has been #1 for eight years running in the US. I have to imagine it is either the best or within the top 3 in the world.

I’m willing to pay for that, whatever it takes. I value my children’s lives over money, no matter the cost. Even if the cost is inflated and corrupt.

My sons’s surgery that I previously mentioned only cost me $500 out of pocket. He had a benign cystic tumor in his jaw, that left alone, could have one day exploded, become infected or deformed his face. Maybe all the above.

I would have paid the $90,000 approval or whatever it cost, no questions asked. No matter what it took. I could be a bagger at the grocery store and I would have figured it out. Might change my life in that scenario.

The difference between us and you is that we’re willing to do whatever it takes to get where we’re going. That is Fastlane.

You have an external locus of control. It’s best you fix that. I’m not excusing the system, but I live within it, and it’s my responsibility to succeed.

I don’t focus on things I can’t influence or change. I can, however, change and influence myself.
 

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Johnny boy

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Obviously the insurance company paid for it, utilizing my premium and the premiums of their millions of other customers.

I think you missed my point.

No one disagrees that the US healthcare system is broken. I’m saying that it could be worse.

I’m also saying that blaming the system is an external locus of control.
I 100% agree that you should have an internal locus of control I didn't realize you were arguing the point I agree with lol
 

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Keep circle jerking yourself to this non-sense.

You are responsible for your family? Oh ok, so if someone comes up to you and shoots you in the head, is it your fault too cause you didn't take responsibility into your own hand by driving an armored car?/ right??

Oh BuT dAiVeY tHaTs NoT tHe SaMe ThInG.

Actually it is. You getting cancer severe enough that requires intervention which costs 100's of thousands of dollars is LITERALLY just drawing the short stick.. Flipping a coin if you will. SURE some of your life choices may contribute to it.. and sometimes it's just the short stick - genetics. So to casually sit back and say "HuR DuR I'm responsible" is just a cop out non-sense which is being shoved down your throat by FOX News and CNN...

Spare me the Ayn Rand bullshit about collectivism vs. individualism and this pure capitalist ideologue bullshit. You don't live in pure capitalism, so the stupidity you espouse by making these dumb dumb comparisons shows how naïve you are and how much the system has ingrained into your head this non-sense... that somehow you think you're smart and 'enlightened' because 'HuR DuR WoRk HaRdEr" "it's your responsbility"...

you live in a system in which lobbyists and people like PHarma Bro f*ck you over daily and have fuked up the system so bad that you are being manipulated to agree to it... So to sit there and claim that you're this moral superior person cause "I would spend every dollar I have and not complain about" is asinine and bullshit. No, you would complain about it, if it bankrupted you. you wouldn't be skipping around with a shit earing grin on your face, that's for damn sure.
If your wife got cancer and died and you bankrupted yourself, you sure as shit wouldn't be sitting there typing out your keyboard warrior non-sense about individualism vs. collectivism... But it's easy to sit there and do that, when it hasn't hit you..

"We waited only 4 weeks, for a totally non life-threatening surgery and it cost me $500 out of pocket. The cost of the operation is between $65,000-$90,000 TBD."
You're lucky enough that that surgery wasn't something not covered by insurance. Or I'm sure your whole post of 'work harder' would end there.

The point is, that "take responsibility" and "work harder" is true, but, there also has to be some balance. We are no longer living in caves, and spending 99% of time hunting for food.

Lastly, the part that alludes you guys the most, and this will not stick to you cause you're so far down the rabbit hole of this "individualism" non-sense:... and trust me, this is a tough pill to swallow for many of you, so I know a good chunk of you won't get it:

All those cancer treatments, and science experiments that have yielded all these amazing drugs, were PUBLICLY FUNDED.
Oh but how?? Pfizer paid for it!!11
Yes, all this science takes it roots from PUBLICLY funded campaigns. You can trace the origins of all of these medicines back to Wars (R&D), and University research - which is publicly funded.
You sit there and espouse capitalism and individualism and "pay your own way" when, 100% of this stuff was all discovered in the PUBLIC sector or with PUBLIC money.
Yes, the private sector marketed it and sold it to you in a nice convenient package. But the science was developed with PUBLIC money.
(and yes, you can certainly argue that capitalism helped motivate these scientists to develop this stuff on behalf of governments, etc)

anyway, these types of posts on these forums always turns into this weird group of "hard core capitalists" where "dying cause you can't afford treatment" is your fault.

capitalism does work. its a great system. except there has to be a balance. and it's clear that some of you don't understand what balance means. hence your posts "hurr durrrrrrrr responsibility". yeah, sure.
Somehow I missed this post.

I have nothing to say. I didn’t call you a moron before, but I’m beginning to think you might fit in the moron majority category.
 

Kevin88660

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but dude that's exactly what I've been saying, just talking about healthcare.

not everyone can make $20 million dollars as it was so casually laid out before by another poster.
If you have $20 million dollars, then $300,000 for a surgery is no big deal. Sure.... maybe.

But the average person, the average person that can't make $20 million.. The average person that can't even crack $50,000 annual income... And is in the rat race and spends $100,000 of their life savings for an operation? Is that a pill worth swallowing as a society?

I'm not ok with that. I'm not ok knowing that my neighbor might very well go broke/lose their home cause of cancer.
How f*cked is that to sit back and say casually "not my problem"?

Is that what this forum is?
yeah man, capitalism is great. and yeah technology helps bring that stuff. and yes, we need people to be motivated to create cures/ and invent things.. But we also can't be so crass that we're worried about f*cking chicken pox bankrupting your family.

But anyway, i think ive made my point and now it's just kicking dead horse.
Capitalism should drive cost lower not higher.

Usually higher cost is always due to oligarchs pushing policies to maintain higher prices. Doctors want high charges and low supply. Lawyers want to sue people. Pharmaceutical companies do not want government bulk purchase to drive down cost (collective bargaining).

Capitalism is also not about getting the government our of the picture. Most thriving capitalist economy has government investment in infrastructure, regulatory bodies setting up industry standard, legal framework to resolve business disputes and as well as income distribution to ensure a basic living standard for everyone.

Most business people are not ideologues and will support socialist or even fascist policies if it works for them, as history shows. American business community actually supported new deals and welfare state after the great depression. Because they realised that too many poor people in a society is very bad for business. There are no demand for the products made in factories.
 
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daivey

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The difference between us and you is that we’re willing to do whatever it takes to get where we’re going. That is Fastlane.

here we go again, putting words in my mouth. or pretending you know me, or what I would do.
cause somehow suggesting that people shouldn't go bankrupt for healthcare, somehow means or equates to not doing whatever you can within the current system to save your life?

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

what an asinine comment.
 
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daivey

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you need to learn to read and comprehend what is being said. Your chest pumping, book quoting won't win arguments. And later escaping with "just taking about healthcare" does not fool me one bit.

right back at you.
 
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daivey

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I don’t actually think people are disagreeing with you as much as you think. There seems to be quite a consensus here that the US healthcare system is FUBAR.

What most people are taking issue with is the blame being cast by the post in the OP. As @MJ DeMarco pointed out, the US has a federally mandated out of pocket maximum of $8,550 per year for an individual. In which case the person posting that either A)only had that much in savings/home equity after 20 years or B) knowingly pick some obscure and really shitty insurance plan. (Or never in fact had any). In either scenario, the healthcare system did not break them, their own choices did. Getting hundreds of thousands of dollars in treatments for a maximum cost of $8,550 is not such a raw deal as that guy made it out to seem. It’s possible that I’m missing something there but I can’t think of what option C could possibly be.

What @Thoelt53 is saying is that if his wife had cancer and the worst thing that happened was they spent all their money or declared bankruptcy then he would be thrilled. You can make more money and/or come back from a BK. (Or multiple times and still become president) You cannot bring your dead wife back to life so the perspective and priorities of the poster seem to be misaligned.

For what it’s worth, I happen to agree with you wholeheartedly that the US system is an embarrassment. My main gripe against single payer is that I bear as much or more responsibility financially as honey boo boo down the street who has large chocolate milkshakes 3x a day and thinks that they are entitled to pay the exact same amount as the person who eats 10x servings of veggies a day and exercises 5 times a week. If our government or citizens actually cared about their own health as much as they do criticizing the system and lining their pockets then bring on the Medicare for all because people will require much much less care and costs should be driven considerably lower. We all know that will never happen though so the best we can do as husbands, wives, fathers and mothers is to make sure our families are taken care of, eating well and getting sunlight and exercise…ie. personal responsibility.

he thanks for posting this about the federally regulated maximums. I don't know enough about US healthcare to dissect all of the nuances.
however, if it's as you say, maximum out of pocket of only $8550 per person, then why do posts/stories like these crop up where people literally go bankrupt, or spend their life savings to save themselves?
Clearly there is a disconnect here, that isn't be explained in your post.

So, is it because insurers are dropping high risk clients? My understanding is that for the most part that can't happen, but I'm not entirely sure.
Or, is it that certain ailments/surgeries/treatments are not insured?

Because if it's as black and white as you say, then, $8,550 is not a lot of money, but, I don't think this is the case - not as simple as you point out. (that being said $8000 or so per year adds up quick, I don't think most families can save that in a year. )

With regards to the rest of your comment - about the 3x milkshares a day.... Actually I disagree with you. You can just as easily eat 10x servings of veggies per day, and get cancer... Why should I pay/share premiums with you when there is high rates of cancer in your family?
So, overall, I disagree with that "memememmeme" attitude...": why do I gotta pay to insure fatty mcfat a$$?"...
because it's a circular argument... I dont want to pay for fat a$$.. Ok cool... Well, maybe someone doesn't drive a car, so, why should they pay for your surgery if you get into a car accident? (obviously there are nunaces about car insurance/etc/ think bigger picture)

Or, maybe you go for a run, and running is more dangerous than walking... why should my premiums cover you tripping and breaking your arm?

Anyway there are actuary tables for anything/everything you can think of. So, there is risk in anything/everything you do, family history, etc. So from the angle of drinking 3x milkshakes, sure, there is more risk of health problems. but that doesn't mean there is no risk just cause you work out daily and eat 10x veggies..
In case the point is missed here: 3x milkshake fatty is watching you go for a run and thinking the same thing "why should I insure Dj Slim, running down the street? if he trips and breaks his neck, I'm gonna laugh at him while I dirnk my milkshake"
 
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daivey

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I never understood all the comments about "time wasting" and "useless threads" and people complaining about it:

1) you're on an internet forum - huge waste of time right there.
2) you can choose not to post/read/move on.
3) if your time is so valuable why you replying? don't you got a $20 million goal to achieve?

4) lots of ways to learn. one good way of learning is seeing opposing view points. when you're not to busy making that $20mil... so... you decide if youd rather have a circle jerk of agreement, or, expand your brain.
 

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