Needs to be said... sell the DAMN motorcycle.

[Jadus]

Risk/Reward analysis.

The death rate is too high to justify the sense of freedom in my opinion.

At least there is higher pay for less risky activities such as working in an oil rig or being stationed in Iraq.

Maybe a VR headset to simulate driving high speed vehicles can be used to mitigate the addiction.

You're certainly welcome to that opinion.

I don't get paid for riding my bike at all, so certainly any job would pay more and may be less risky. Being stationed in Iraq would be much more risky in my assessment.

I'm not addicted to speed. My normal cruising speed is 80kph (about 50mph)

 

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[Redwolf]

And this I totally understand. Why? Because if you screw up, you own it. It was your doing. I'd actually bet that racing motorcycles on a track (with other racers) is actually SAFER than riding a bike in traffic.

Yes, it is, especially in a large urban areas where traffic is a melee. There are still boneheads at the track, but the factors outside of your control are significantly less. Additionally mistakes are usually minimalized due to the safety aspects of racetracks - ie: no oncoming traffic to hit if you go down.

 

[Kak]

Two things:

1. A few years ago, while sitting at a stoplight, I got rear ended in my Mercedes S550 so hard that it was totaled. We bounced off of a SUV a in front of us as well. The headrests had charges in them that catch your head and save you from whiplash. They blew. My wife was even pregnant at the time.

We lived the rest of our day like it didn’t happen. We actually drove the totaled car home and then called the tow truck which is a testament to Mercedes badassery.

On a motorcycle, anyone would have easily been killed by the careless texting idiot. She never even applied the brakes.

2. We have some serious road work going on here. On a stretch of road nearby, there’s no shoulder and concrete walls surrounding two lanes.

A couple of weeks ago I saw a bad motorcycle accident. A couple of people trying to help him, but he was bleeding profusely in the street while the emergency vehicles were trapped a half mile back in wall to wall traffic. It was pretty sad to see. It didn’t look good.

 

[Bryce Wolf]

I'd actually been planning to buy my first motorcycle since January. I changed my mind after reading this thread, thank you MJ and everyone in the replies who brought it to light.

You can't walk shirtless on the beach in a wheel chair!

 

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[Venn]

Well I personally do own a bike, and I don't see any other possibility of transportation beside it. Living in Rome basically forces you to use some kind of scooter or motorcycle (I am not sure if anyone of U have ever been to Rome to see how the traffic looks like here, even my friends who are experienced driver's are scared to ride here).

Saying that I am not even a person who likes to take risks, but I have owned a car here and 2,5km drive might take you as well as 30 minutes (same as walking) and then you need another 40 minutes to find a parking spot, a nightmare.

I also feel like riding in these circumstances makes you alert in such a way that you can basically foresight what these idiots are gonna do (after all you are one of them riding a bike in such a hell) so you break even if you have green light etc.

I guess it depends where you live maybe in US your average speed that you move with within the city is higher, but here in Italy tons of people do not see any other way of moving from point a to point b.

 

[Saad Khan]

A few years ago, while sitting at a stoplight, I got rear ended in my Mercedes S550 so hard that it was totaled. We bounced off of a SUV a in front of us as well. The headrests had charges in them that catch your head and save you from whiplash. They blew. My wife was even pregnant at the time.

I was just going to say I have a bike that doesn't go above 60 km/h so I'm naturally limited from speeding but seeing that you could've died because of an idiot is not worth it.

It's one of those things where you keep delaying it and excuse until something bad happens to you.

 

[Saad Khan]

Iraq would be much more risky in my assessment.

Ever been to Iraq? I bet its not as bad as the media paints it.

 

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[Nevera]

Oh man, I would love to own and drive a motorcycle, I also came close to it. But there was this one time when my bookeeper gave me a short ride and I totally cooled off.

I am not gonna share the story here, but there’s plenty of evidence that “driving slowly and carefully” , which btw was my plan as well, doesn’t work on the bikes.

Case in point : That’s s what he said… - Video

P.S.
I also lost a friend a couple of years ago due to a motorbike accident.

#SellTheBike

 

[2legit2quit]

crazy story, i had a bike years ago and was thinking of getting another one three years ago, in 2020. i was in eastern canada at the time, and did my knowledge + skills test. so i could ride alone.

it was around september 2020 at the time. and for some reason, i suppose due to covid, or some spiritual aspect, i had begun thinking about my childhood best friend - whom i had not spoken to in 16 years - since high school. it was just very random and i could not figure out why i was thinking about him.

a few weeks later in october 2020, lo and behold - that childhood best friend, found me through my YT channel (which is not really advertised). he asked to speak with me.

so we spoke - and it turned out he was in a horrific motorcycle accident. his leg was stitched all the way up to his balls, and half his nut sack was stitched as well. he almost lost his balls.

he was going on a green light when a lady taking a left turn from oncoming traffic, didn't see him. and hit him.

all he remember was waking up at the scene, seeing himself leaking blood, and passed out again. he only reached out to two people - his godmother, and me.

im not sure what that meant, but after that, i didn't get a bike...i felt that had to be a sign...

 

[MJ DeMarco]

and it turned out he was in a horrific motorcycle accident. his leg was stitched all the way up to his balls, and half his nut sack was stitched as well. he almost lost his balls.

Wow. Just wow.

But let's just guess... he had all the right gear. He made all the right decisions. He took all the precautions.

Now his balls are stitched to his legs because of some old lady in cognitive decline was in his proximity.

This describes half the people on the road...

Again, a probabilistic nightmare that invalidates good choices.

 

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[2legit2quit]

Wow. Just wow.

But let's just guess... he had all the right gear. He made all the right decisions. He took all the precautions.

Now his balls are stitched to his legs because of some old lady in cognitive decline was in his proximity.

This describes half the people on the road...

Again, a probabilistic nightmare that invalidates good choices.

yeah, he was geared up and going the speed limit as well, on his way to work from what i recall. from what i last heard, he'd probably never walk again properly or have a limp. he's a plumber by trade so he's lucky he can still work at least.

the crazy thing was, he thought about getting another bike - but - after some talking with his family - decided it was not worth the risk to go through that again.

the whole story was just VERY eery because of how it went down and how he reached out to me, just crazy.

i suspect the trauma of the accident probably gave him some sort of near-death experience, perhaps he had a flashback to his childhood or something, i don't know.

 

[James90]

Just sold mines today

I'm fortunate, i've gone unscathed, but my closest rider friends are a different story. The streets are unforgiving.

My bike has just been sitting these past 6 months, haven't had the time really enjoy it, and plus my friends are hanging up their helmets too.

Perhaps one day, I'll get into trail riding... Either on 2 wheels or 4 wheels

 

[MJ DeMarco]

As expected, the driver didn't see him and was likely distracted.

Treat Williams Dies In Motorcycle Accident: ‘Everwood,’ ‘Hair’ Star Was 71

Treat Williams was killed in a motorcycle accident in Dorset, Vermont. The 'Everwood', 'Hair' and 'Chesapeake Shores' actor was 71.

deadline.com

 

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[ZCP]

i would only ride a motorcycle in @MJ DeMarco 's driveway and back yard! and then only if he isn't on the lawnmower!

 

[socaldude]

i would only ride a motorcycle in @MJ DeMarco 's driveway and back yard! and then only if he isn't on the lawnmower!

I figured at least passenger wearing leather chaps on a Harley.

 

[Roli]

As expected, the driver didn't see him and was likely distracted.

Treat Williams Dies In Motorcycle Accident: ‘Everwood,’ ‘Hair’ Star Was 71

Treat Williams was killed in a motorcycle accident in Dorset, Vermont. The 'Everwood', 'Hair' and 'Chesapeake Shores' actor was 71.

deadline.com

Very sad for him and his family.

Although of course, we don't get to read headlines about the millions of people round the world, who ride motorbikes everyday and are fine after each journey. #observerbias

 

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[Saad Khan]

My father always said to me, "Drive as if everyone on the road is blind. You can't expect blind people to save you."

It's a great principle to remember when driving any type of vehicle.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Here's another one...

American ski jumper Gasienica, 24, dies in crash

American ski jumper Patrick Gasienica, who competed for the United States last year in the Beijing Olympics, has died as the result of a motorcycle crash at the age of 24.

www.espn.com

Very sad for him and his family.

Although of course, we don't get to read headlines about the millions of people round the world, who ride motorbikes everyday and are fine after each journey. #observerbias

LOL.

Headline: Joe Blow dies of lung cancer after smoking 3 packs of cigarettes a day.
Roli: #Observerbias

Deny probability all you want.

You also haven't read about all the motorcycle fatalities from random unknowns who don’t get a headline, unlike the actor, or the skiier, or the...

Truth has nothing to do with observation bias.

Your statement is about as relevant as, “We’ll just because 4% is greater than .006% doesn’t make it true, especially when it gets a headline.”

Math doesn't lie.

#denial.

 

[Boogie]

Oh..
Accidents involving bikes can occur, and unfortunately, they can sometimes result in fatalities. However, it's crucial to remember that numerous factors contribute to these accidents, such as traffic conditions, infrastructure, rider behavior, and adherence to safety guidelines.

Yes, numerous factors. Numerous factors outside of your control.

Motorcycles - Injury Facts

Motorcycles were 3% of all registered vehicles, but accounted for 14% of all traffic fatalities and 17% of all occupant fatalities in 2021.

injuryfacts.nsc.org

"Although motorcycles make up only 3% of all registered vehicles and 0.6% of all vehicle miles traveled in the United States, motorcyclists accounted for 14% of all traffic fatalities, 17% of all occupant fatalities, and 3% of all occupant injuries in 2021. A factor that directly influences motorcycle fatality trends is helmet use. (Explore helmet use trends)

Fatalities among motorcycle riders and passengers increased 8% from 2020 to 2021, while the rate per 100 million vehicle miles traveled decreased by 2%. Over the last 10 years, deaths have increased 19%, while death rates have increased 29%. The number of motorcycle fatalities now stands at 5,932 and the rate is 30.05 per 100 million vehicle miles."

So for about 1/2 of 1 percent of all miles driven, motorcycles make up 14% of all traffic fatalities.

In contrast to the the number of motorcycle fatalities which ended up at 6,084, the total for all road user fatalities in 2021 was 42,939. Also, the death rate per 100 million vehicle miles is 1.37 vs 30.05 for motorcycles.

The charts below are great. The Deaths by Road User description and chart are particularly applicable.

Fatality Facts 2021: State by state

A summary of fatality statistics about state by state compiled by IIHS from 2021 Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS) data.

www.iihs.org

 

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[Jon822]

A lot of the comments here demonstrate how little is understood about risk. First, risk analysis is independent of individual outcomes. If you played one round of Russian roulette and won and your conclusion was that it was a smart decision, then you don't understand risk. Second, it doesn't matter at all about the existence of other hypothetical risks that are higher than motorcycle riding. Regardless of your beliefs about an afterlife, this is the only life you're guaranteed. Are you willing to take a much higher risk of dying or suffering serious, permanent injury just so you can drive a motorcycle instead of a car?

If your answer is yes, then at least make the choice with your eyes wide open: you are always at the mercy of the drivers around you and you are trusting that they are observant, giving driving their full attention, and that they understand the consequences of taking their eyes off the road even for a few seconds. One thing to note is that our intuition is built by our evolutionary adaption to our environment. We have no intuition about speeds like 50 mph because it is only recently that we could travel that fast. To put it into perspective, 50 mph is 73.3 ft/sec. The math here is very simple: 73 times the number of seconds distracted is how many feet you will travel without looking at the road. What does this have to do with intuition? We don't have a built-in fear of distracting ourselves for a few seconds when driving at 50+ mph because evolution hasn't had a chance to add it to our repertoire. So all of those drivers that you're trusting don't think anything about checking their phone or something else for a few seconds because you have to consciously remind yourself that you will travel (73*number_of_seconds) feet blind or distracted.

 

[2legit2quit]

another one for me is bunjee jumping or skydiving. the risk is extremely low of dying, but you don't need to die to not be a statistic. in other words, many people survive but their body is completely ruined.

watching that youtube channel "JointheTeem" with their Friday Freakout episodes, certainly sealed that off the bucket list for me.

I don't advise watching too many of these videos, they are honestly adrenaline inducing. The number of near catastrophic failures is crazy.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZZjxWlO6wg

 

[Roli]

Here's another one...

American ski jumper Gasienica, 24, dies in crash

American ski jumper Patrick Gasienica, who competed for the United States last year in the Beijing Olympics, has died as the result of a motorcycle crash at the age of 24.

www.espn.com

LOL.

Headline: Joe Blow dies of lung cancer after smoking 3 packs of cigarettes a day.
Roli: #Observerbias

Deny probability all you want.

You also haven't read about all the motorcycle fatalities from random unknowns who don’t get a headline, unlike the actor, or the skiier, or the...

Truth has nothing to do with observation bias.

Your statement is about as relevant as, “We’ll just because 4% is greater than .006% doesn’t make it true, especially when it gets a headline.”

Math doesn't lie.

#denial.

My point was 14% of traffic fatalities are motorbikes (US figures) meaning 86% are not.

Of course they're more dangerous, you haven't got a steel cage around you when you're on one, however you are still more likely to die driving a car.

So I'm not denying probability, merely highlighting it.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

however you are still more likely to die driving a car.

Wow, nice double down on the dumbest thing I've read on this forum this year. This also means I'm more likely to die of cancer simply because I breathe. Unlike breathing, I don't choose to ride a bike in a culture of distracted morons.

But then again, Twitter lost 66% of its value because you seem to struggle putting facts in context, you know, reality.

86% of fatalities are in cars because they represent 99.4% miles driven on the road.

Here even Google thinks you're nuts.



I hope you don't have a job making life-saving decisions based on your statistical acumen.

 

[Kevin88660]

Here's another one...

American ski jumper Gasienica, 24, dies in crash

American ski jumper Patrick Gasienica, who competed for the United States last year in the Beijing Olympics, has died as the result of a motorcycle crash at the age of 24.

www.espn.com

LOL.

Headline: Joe Blow dies of lung cancer after smoking 3 packs of cigarettes a day.
Roli: #Observerbias

Deny probability all you want.

You also haven't read about all the motorcycle fatalities from random unknowns who don’t get a headline, unlike the actor, or the skiier, or the...

Truth has nothing to do with observation bias.

Your statement is about as relevant as, “We’ll just because 4% is greater than .006% doesn’t make it true, especially when it gets a headline.”

Math doesn't lie.

#denial.

24 years old. That is sad.

 

[Jon822]

Statistically, you are most likely to die in a hospital. So if you avoid going to the hospital, you will live longer.

 

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[Jon822]

My point was 14% of traffic fatalities are motorbikes (US figures) meaning 86% are not.

Of course they're more dangerous, you haven't got a steel cage around you when you're on one, however you are still more likely to die driving a car.

So I'm not denying probability, merely highlighting it.

Here's the part that you're missing: it's called standardization. Or often simplified to "comparing apples to apples." The reason standardization is so important is that it allows for accurate comparisons. In its absence, you make false conclusions like you posted.

Here's an example: if I make $1/second and you make $20/hour, without standardizing these numbers and using your above logic, you would conclude that you make more than me because $20>$1. But this is comparing apples to oranges. In order to compare apples to apples, we have to have the same denominator so we're comparing the same units. When you convert my $1/second to $/hour, I make $3600/hour, which is obviously more.

If you're going to compare the risk involved with different vehicles, you have to adjust the fatality percentages to reflect the difference in occurrence rate. Or to put it another way, you have to (as MJ pointed out) calculate the number of accidents that would occur given an EQUAL number of miles driven.

 

[heavy_industry]

Here's the part that you're missing: it's called standardization. Or often simplified to "comparing apples to apples." The reason standardization is so important is that it allows for accurate comparisons. In its absence, you make false conclusions like you posted.

Here's an example: if I make $1/second and you make $20/hour, without standardizing these numbers and using your above logic, you would conclude that you make more than me because $20>$1. But this is comparing apples to oranges. In order to compare apples to apples, we have to have the same denominator so we're comparing the same units. When you convert my $1/second to $/hour, I make $3600/hour, which is obviously more.

If you're going to compare the risk involved with different vehicles, you have to adjust the fatality percentages to reflect the difference in occurrence rate. Or to put it another way, you have to (as MJ pointed out) calculate the number of accidents that would occur given an EQUAL number of miles driven.

*Laughs in Calculus*

 

[2legit2quit]

and with that all being said, horseriding is now off the list for me:
"According to the data, there are roughly 0.14 serious injuries per 1,000 hours of riding on two wheels, while those on four hoofs suffer 0.49 injuries/1,000 hours."

Motor Mouth: Riding a horse is more dangerous than riding a motorcycle

Recent studies — including one from British Columbia — reveal that horses are three-and-a-half times more dangerous than bikes

driving.ca

 

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[Shono]

Very sad for him and his family.

Although of course, we don't get to read headlines about the millions of people round the world, who ride motorbikes everyday and are fine after each journey. #observerbias

Close to 20% of fatal accidents on the road are motorcycling accidents. Motorcyclists make up 2-3% of the motorist population. Observerbias that

 

[Kevin88660]

"Riding a motorbike is dangerous" is the kind of conventional wisdom that everyone knows is true but many have not taken it seriously enough.