Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

[theag]

this awesome idea about an app that is a mix of Angry Birds, Wikipedia and Facebook

Haha this made me laugh. Reminds me of "Facepon". Check the slide of the guy in the beginning of this hilarious video

I'm a VC - YouTube

 

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[Eos]

I think every internet/technology entrepreneur should know about the basic technologies that his business is based on. This is also vital if you're eventually outsourcing/hiring for the technology/programming part, you won't get what you want/need if you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

I agree with this statement. We need to be aware of the fundamentals.

Zuck, Gates etc. already had these skills. Tim Ferriss advocates focusing on your strengths instead of devoting a ton of time to your weaknesses - focus on being on becoming a better business guy instead of spending that time becoming a poor to average coder.

If you want to build a billion dollar business as a non technical person then I believe your best shot is finding a 'rockstar coder' to be your co-founder. These guys usually aren't short of options if they are that good so it becomes a question of selling yourself to them.
Being aware of the fundamentals, able to sell them the dream, raise finance, strong network and being a generally knowledgeable 'biz guy' can all help in this respect.

Having said this, Tristan Walker ex. Director of Business Development at FourSquare and now entrepreneur in residence at Andreessen Horowitz is teaching himself Python. I do think that's more of a vanity project though. He has endless opportunities for creating a billion dollar company from the position he's in there.

 

[Steve W]

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
1000 hours learning to code.
200 hours writing an app.
wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
sell some of your app
spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.


Learn to market and write copy:
1000 hours learning to market and write code, while that 1000 hours is going on, pay someone that has 10,000 hours of training on apps to write your app.
Start marketing your app immediately.
Sell lots of your app.
Pass any support issues to the developer
Sell lots more of your app.
Create 3 more apps and market the hell out of them
Go to the bank often to deposit checks.

Learn to market and write copy:
Have an idea for an app.
Tell the world about it by advertising for a developer.
Watch helplessly as somebody steals your idea, creates a fantastic app & makes a mint from it.
or spend months discussing your app with a developer who's native language isn't the same as yours & eventually give up as you couldn't communicate effectively or discover the developer couldn't really do the job.
or eventually find a great developer & pay them a big chunk of cash (& ongoing royalties or fees if the app ever takes off).
Discover no-one else has that appreciation for your app that you do & kiss goodbye to the aforementioned big chunk of cash.
or find a developer who decides your idea is actually pretty good & develops a similar & better app for him/herself.
or find a developer who decides to put a virus or other nasty in your app to teach you a lesson because you didn't pay them enough & work at McDonalds the rest of your life as your reputation is shot & you now have huge legal fees to pay.

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
Spend whatever time it takes learning to code while developing your app the way you want it at the same time, creating a system that will allow you to very quickly create other apps.
Have complete control & ownership of your app.
Pay a once only fee to a copywriter for copy that you can use for this & modify as required for any future apps.
Market the hell out of your app.
Sell lots of copies your app.
Tweak your app as required yourself quickly & efficiently scoring major brownie points with your customers due to your amazing response time. Enhance your reputation & use this as a marketing tool.
Repeat as required for future apps.
Sit on a Mediterranean beach counting your money while sipping cold drinks out of a tall glass & bask in the satisfaction of having actually created something worthwhile yourself rather than having to get a more skilled person to do it for you.

 

[qhead]

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
Spend whatever time it takes learning to code while developing your app the way you want it at the same time, creating a system that will allow you to very quickly create other apps.
Have complete control & ownership of your app.
Pay a once only fee to a copywriter for copy that you can use for this & modify as required for any future apps.
Market the hell out of your app.
Sell lots of copies your app.
Tweak your app as required yourself quickly & efficiently scoring major brownie points with your customers due to your amazing response time. Enhance your reputation & use this as a marketing tool.
Repeat as required for future apps.
Sit on a Mediterranean beach counting your money while sipping cold drinks out of a tall glass & bask in the satisfaction of having actually created something worthwhile yourself rather than having to get a more skilled person to do it for you.

I would say it goes more like:
- Spend whatever time it takes learning to code while developing your app the way you want it at the same time, creating a system that will allow you to very quickly create other apps
- Find out that because you started to code the app before what you actually knew what you were doing, finishing it takes huge effort because shitty architecture choices you made in the beginning - just ask Mark Suckerberg about using PHP & MySQL to create social network...
- You decide to push through and release the app
- You then try to market the hell out of your app finding out that there's no demand or very little demand and it costs you a lot of capital in either money or time to reach those people
- Sell few copies that will bring out some bugs
- Find out that because you didn't know what you were doing at the beginning, your code is next to impossible to extend or debug
- "Enhance your reputation" with "great" ratings in the app stores
- Have another app idea and now you actually research the market first and know how to design and code the app properly

That's how it goes in the real-life.

 

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[Icy]

- Find out that because you started to code the app before what you actually knew what you were doing, finishing it takes huge effort because shitty architecture choices you made in the beginning - just ask Mark Suckerberg about using PHP & MySQL to create social network...

Oh come on, this is a ridiculous example. There is absolutely nothing that would out of the box scale to the level of FB. Anything at such huge levels of traffic will require in house optimizations.

The chance of your language choices being your downfall are as close to zero as can be.

 

[theag]

Oh come on, this is a ridiculous example. There is absolutely nothing that would out of the box scale to the level of FB. Anything at such huge levels of traffic will require in house optimizations.

The chance of your language choices being your downfall are as close to zero as can be.

He wasn't talking about an out of the box solution or language choices. He was talking about architecture and with that he is clearly and 100% right.

 

[qhead]

Oh come on, this is a ridiculous example. There is absolutely nothing that would out of the box scale to the level of FB. Anything at such huge levels of traffic will require in house optimizations.

The chance of your language choices being your downfall are as close to zero as can be.

Heh, it would help if you knew what you were talking about There's a difference between downfall caused by language choice and paying a boat load of unnecessary cash to make it scale. You do understand the difference between relational database and graph database? Or CAP theorem? If you did knew the difference, it would be quite obvious why MySQL was a bad choice. Today FB is the biggest single MySQL user in the world but they still had to create Cassandra to get better write performance and use Hadoop to create streaming log system.

Suckerberg chose PHP & MySQL because it was a throw-away project for him. Something he wanted quickly done and maybe few bucks out of it. You do know that it was around 2004-2005 when FB was started? There was plenty of choices for scalability back then and using LAMP wasn't one one them.

 

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[LamboMP]

MJ coded it himself, and was NOT a pro. I don't see the point in calling it stupid to learn how to code. In fact, its quite the opposite.

You can be ahead of your competitors because the time it takes to introduce new features and adapt to the markets needs is severely reduced.

 

[theag]

MJ coded it himself, and was NOT a pro. I don't see the point in calling it stupid to learn how to code. In fact, its quite the opposite.

You can be ahead of your competitors because the time it takes to introduce new features and adapt to the markets needs is severely reduced.

Two points you don't realize:

1) MJ learned coding before he even thought about his business. He had the skills and found a need to put them to use. Like Bill Gates, Zuckerberg and all those other guys mentioned before. Again, not the other way around as people here approach it.
2) I don't want to discount MJs skills, but a lead generation site isn't exactly hard to code. In my opinion this is the kind of knowledge every web entrepreneur should have. But thats not real programming.

 

[healthstatus]

MJ coded it himself, and was NOT a pro. I don't see the point in calling it stupid to learn how to code. In fact, its quite the opposite.

You can be ahead of your competitors because the time it takes to introduce new features and adapt to the markets needs is severely reduced.

I coded my my first project at HRA.net myself, and as a guy that has written code for 30+ years, I can assure you what we got away with in the late 1990's up to about 2003, would not even get a second look today or be tolerated. It was the wild west, no running water and the train had not made it to town yet.

Can we have a show of hands of all the people on this thread that are telling me I don't know what I am talking about that make a full time living off their own Internet business? I have for over 10 years.

Have any of you ever had a bad meal when eating out? Did you then go and train yourself to become an expert chef? Probably not. Since someone posting had a bad experience with an outsourcer that is justification to learn code. How many of you are learning to be tax accountants and lawyers? Because once you learn to program and write this FANTASTIC app that is going to make you money, how the hell will you find anybody that would help you out with tax and legal stuff that aren't going to steal your ideas and put you out of business? Oh right, NOBODY ever has problems with tax accountants or attorneys they are all more outstanding citizens than a good programmer.

Do you hear yourselves yet? I am telling you to quit focusing on the wrong thing and learn how to make MONEY. Many of you watch Shark Tank and what are they always asking, what are your sales?

 

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[Icy]

Heh, it would help if you knew what you were talking about There's a difference between downfall caused by language choice and paying a boat load of unnecessary cash to make it scale. You do understand the difference between relational database and graph database? Or CAP theorem? If you did knew the difference, it would be quite obvious why MySQL was a bad choice. Today FB is the biggest single MySQL user in the world but they still had to create Cassandra to get better write performance and use Hadoop to create streaming log system.

Suckerberg chose PHP & MySQL because it was a throw-away project for him. Something he wanted quickly done and maybe few bucks out of it. You do know that it was around 2004-2005 when FB was started? There was plenty of choices for scalability back then and using LAMP wasn't one one them.

FB would be the single biggest user of anything they use and would indefinitely but pushing far beyond the limits of any choice they made.

I'm honestly curious what was the significantly better choice back in 04-05? I know some of the other choices, but what was so far beyond their choice that makes their choice silly?

He wasn't talking about an out of the box solution or language choices. He was talking about architecture and with that he is clearly and 100% right.

The choice of language greatly influences the architecture of a program.

 

[CryptO]

Do you hear yourselves yet? I am telling you to quit focusing on the wrong thing and learn how to make MONEY.

Speed +

 

[LamboMP]

Lets first define the skill level which the individual is currently at, when they come up with their idea.

Zero experience = Hire out.
Low experience = Hire out.

Unless you want to do it yourself. In these circumstances I can fully agree. Otherwise, your premise is flawed. You also are assuming that the "individual" is good at delegating and managing a project.

What works for you, may not work for someone else. That's all I'm getting at.

 

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[theag]

Zero experience = Hire out.
Low experience = Hire out.

No. With no or low experience you can't hire out because you don't have a clue what it involves. You have to learn the BASICS, then hire out.

 

[LamboMP]

No. With no or low experience you can't hire out because you don't have a clue what it involves. You have to learn the BASICS, then hire out.

But you said learning programming is stupid?

 

[theag]

But you said learning programming is stupid?

Don't learn programming, but learn how to work with programmers to achieve the results you want.

If think the others also summed this up pretty good. You have to know what you're talking about, the basics. Then hire out to let people do it for out with clear instructions.

 

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[johnp]

@HealthStatus - This is a great thread. I love reading your posts.

Just for the hell of it, here is an article that I found awhile back. It shows some of the big sites from back in the day. It's a good reminder that we all have to start somewhere. I don't think that this type of work would be acceptable today, but it's still interesting to see how far the big sites have come.

http://mashable.com/2011/12/11/old-web-design/#381259-BONUS-Mashable

 

[healthstatus]

No. With no or low experience you can't hire out because you don't have a clue what it involves. You have to learn the BASICS, then hire out.

Is that how you hire an attorney? You learn the basics of corporate structure, non-disclosure agreements, contract law, then you go hire an attorney. Don't tell me it is completely different. It ISN'T.

 

[theag]

Is that how you hire an attorney? You learn the basics of corporate structure, non-disclosure agreements, contract law, then you go hire an attorney. Don't tell me it is completely different. It ISN'T.

Thats about the worst comparison you can make. Do you hire an attorney to build your product, which is your main asset, for you?

 

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[DeletedUser397]

I couldn't disagree more.

Comparing coding to writing sales pitches is apples to oranges. They're both skills that are great to have. But to say coding is pointless is to disregard the commandment of Entry. Coding is like that brick wall that will leave 'the others' out. I'm a bit subjective since I taught myself web development when I was in highschool, and despite getting my college degree in business, decided to make a career of web development (all self-taught).

Even if you're not planning on creating an app or some system in 'the fastlane' you can fall back on a solid 'job' with coding, whereas your prospects for sales letters and copywriting are much more slim. The market is saturated with sales skills people. Coding is a very well-paid talent because of the time and effort it takes to learn it. And likewise, you can develop a lot more high value products through it. Whereas copywriting is just a side skill you'll need to market your product... it's hard to create a product from just copywriting etc.

And to hire someone who does know how to code, you should know a little yourself unless you want to easily get scammed or ripped off. But sure if you're business isn't in apps or web related, then sure forget coding altogether. But if you plan to be successful in the app, web-app, mobile dev, digital media industry, etc... you should know some basics... not necessarily know how to code, but know the differences between say html and javascript, different browsers, and other lingo/jargon.

 

[theag]

Is that how you hire an attorney? You learn the basics of corporate structure, non-disclosure agreements, contract law, then you go hire an attorney. Don't tell me it is completely different. It ISN'T.

So basically your advice then is that a person who knows nothing about technology but came up with a "great idea" should straight out hire a programmer, tell him his idea and expect that everything works as he imagines. Thats just ridiculous and you know that yourself.

 

[Icy]

So basically your advice then is that a person who knows nothing about technology but came up with a "great idea" should straight out hire a programmer, tell him his idea and expect that everything works as he imagines. Thats just ridiculous and you know that yourself.

That's a communication error, not a lack of knowledge error.

 

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[theag]

That's a communication error, not a lack of knowledge error.

Alright, good luck then to all people taking this advice and using outsourced programmers with no knowledge at all.

 

[LamboMP]

@theag - knowing the basics definitely makes it a smoother process. However, not required to hire someone else.

 

[healthstatus]

So basically your advice then is that a person who knows nothing about technology but came up with a "great idea" should straight out hire a programmer, tell him his idea and expect that everything works as he imagines. Thats just ridiculous and you know that yourself.

That is not what I suggested. You do due diligence on ANYONE you hire, you make sure they have extremely strong credentials, rankings, ratings or advice from others that this person is TOP NOTCH. You interview them, you explain the 10,000 foot view of your project and you ask their opinions. You can also hire a software architect and graphic or UI designer using those same methods and the RESULTS from that kind of planning and execution will be so far above anything you do with 3-6 months of "I will learn to program" and do it myself.

It is ridiculous to think you can be a top notch, pro level programmer in 3 months and can put out a professional grade program. It is insulting to all of us that have put years into it. You need to wish more luck to the users who buy the app written by someone with 3 months coding experience.

 

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[healthstatus]

Comparing coding to writing sales pitches is apples to oranges.

Correct, selling makes you money, learning to code wastes your time.

They're both skills that are great to have. But to say coding is pointless is to disregard the commandment of Entry.

No they are not. I know a ton of broke programmers. I don't know one person that has learned copywriting skills and practices them regularly that is broke.

 

[bigtamale]

Is that how you hire an attorney? You learn the basics of corporate structure, non-disclosure agreements, contract law, then you go hire an attorney. Don't tell me it is completely different. It ISN'T.

I would have lost out on the R&D Grant for tech companies to the tune of 5 figures had I trusted my high priced, well reputable accountant that didn't know the specifics of my industry.

Shame on me for hiring him, should have gotten to know a thing or 2 before committing so I could ask the right questions. Sure, I'm about to recoup it after switching accountants but I lost a shitload of time in the process and gave someone else (IRS) my money at zero percent interest for over a year because I was uninformed.

 

[healthstatus]

Shame on me for hiring him, should have gotten to know a thing or 2 before committing so I could ask the right questions.

Sorry you had to learn a hard lesson, but absolutely, learning a thing or two about anything you are getting into is VERY wise! You can use that knowledge as leverage in your hiring of and dealing with experts. But there is a huge difference between that level of learning and oh, I will teach myself how to be a professional in that field in a few weeks/months.

 

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[bigtamale]

Why would you feel sorry? It's being taken care of and a better educated me is well beyond this. My experience might be anecdotal but it certainly backs our argument. Learning a minimal amount of accounting could have saved me from getting screwed for years outsourcing in ignorance.

I will teach myself how to be a professional in that field in a few weeks/months.

Aah, selective hearing. Nobody is suggesting that professional is the level of proficiency needed to make well informed decisions. I suggested a weekend crash course ... not too terribly taxing.

 

[The-J]

Most of the people on the thread are extremely attached to the idea and not giving as much power to the execution.

You need sales and marketing skills to execute, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. The people here act as if programming is the entry barrier to Web businesses. It's not. The entry barrier is getting your message heard above all the noise. The Internet is unique as the entry barrier for building and distribution is extremely low, but the marketing is what kills 99% of Internet businesses. You need sales and marketing: advertising strategies, SEO implementation, social media leverage, networking with the powerhouses in your niche, etc etc etc.

MJ said it best: marketing is the queen of the chess board. Learning programming takes months. Learning it well takes years. Same with marketing. But good luck finding someone to sell your product for you when your product has no track record of sales.