Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

[qhead]

FB would be the single biggest user of anything they use and would indefinitely but pushing far beyond the limits of any choice they made.

I'm honestly curious what was the significantly better choice back in 04-05? I know some of the other choices, but what was so far beyond their choice that makes their choice silly?

The choice of language greatly influences the architecture of a program.

If you were looking at writing scalable, self-healing web application, you could have used Java or Erlang. Also Scala came out 2003. PHP is a really crappy choice for a webapp that needs to scale. PHP doesn't have threads, is synchronous and doesn't perform very well when it comes to CPU heavy tasks. But where it is awesome is whipping up small scripts for websites. That's what it was originally meant for.

And for the database. Well the choice to put graph data to MySQL was a really, really dumb one. You can do it and it will work but you will later on pay for that decision with having to buy beefy servers because your queries has a lot of JOINs and UNIONs. Just the basic edge finding in social graph with MySQL is very expensive operation. MySQL is great for transactions that are well-defined and always need to be guaranteed to be processed, like for example financial data. I don't remember on top of my head which graph databases were available back then but the truth is that not very many compared to nowadays. Graph database is not an new idea so there still must have been some choices.

I think that Suckerberg chose the most popular stack, kinda like choosing Apache nowadays and went with that. Frankly, in Facebook's case it doesn't matter. They were able to overcome it BUT these kind of decisions and lack of knowledge can break a company. I have witnessed one aspiring analytics company go down because they designed their product with PHP & MySQL.. Sounds a working plan until you get your first BIG customer pumping up so much data that your MySQL server can't take it. Now you need to be able to scale your system but the problem with MySQL is that it scales only up meaning that you need a bigger, more expensive server and it wasn't meant for writing data, it was designed to provide fast queries. Now what happened when this analytics company realized this? They didn't have the capital to write everything all over again so they had to radically change their business plan and at least for the while, dump their visions of getting rich.

Every time you use FB as an example, remember that it is a unique company in many ways. They got incredibly lucky in with Suckerberg's gambles and in many cases they just happened to be able to get the right person to fix the platform. Now imagine all the companies that made the same choices and didn't get so lucky...

 

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[qhead]

Most of the people on the thread are extremely attached to the idea and not giving as much power to the execution.

I agree completely. Too many folks here seemed to pick up only the line that said that you can use marketing to mask crappy product and sell it.

You need sales and marketing skills to execute, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. The people here act as if programming is the entry barrier to Web businesses. It's not. The entry barrier is getting your message heard above all the noise. The Internet is unique as the entry barrier for building and distribution is extremely low, but the marketing is what kills 99% of Internet businesses. You need sales and marketing: advertising strategies, SEO implementation, social media leverage, networking with the powerhouses in your niche, etc etc etc.

MJ said it best: marketing is the queen of the chess board. Learning programming takes months. Learning it well takes years. Same with marketing. But good luck finding someone to sell your product for you when your product has no track record of sales.

So writing a sales page, creating PPC campaigns and knowing how to post to social media is the entry barrier? I don't think so. Learning AIDA and picking up "Words that sell" etc. isn't really that big of a challenge... After researching Sugarman, Bencivenga, Makepeace, Garfinkel, etc. I can say that creating a basic compelling copy is something you can learn to do in a very short time.

Like you said, the barrier of entry in the web nowadays is traffic. Of course you can put everything under "internet marketing" from traffic driving to copywriting but when I say marketing, I'm talking about "sales and marketing skills". Putting SEO and other technical feats under marketing feels a bit weird to me. If we still use the app example, you need to create something exceptional to get it viral if you don't have any skills to create traffic. You can go at it with few different ways. You can either do media buys and that's when knowing how to do great banners comes in handy but usually startups don't have capital to advertise so now you need to start using free traffic sources like search engines, social media and other audience aggregators. The problem is that that's a full-time + little more job unless you can build a system that does it for you. Now that's where knowing how to programming comes handy. There's so many marketers pushing different products in those channels that you need consistent effort to break thru the noise. Two entrepreneurs pushing product at forum X. The other one scouts the forum for threads to reply in order to get his signature out there. The other one has a bot that monitors forums A, B, C, D...X and gives him a list of threads that match his requirements... now I wonder who is going to keep doing this long enough for it to be beneficial strategy?

I don't know whether it's because some of the people here are still trying to get on the fastlane or if the some of the people here are really short-sighted but the biggest benefit of learning the ropes of how your product is made is the fact that you can create truly quality product. Personally I enjoy being entrepreneur and I don't intend to stop even if I some day achieve this "legendary money". So this guides me to create quality products simply because it's easier to sell to existing customer than it is to find a new one. If I would to go to oDesk and order an app that's mix of Angry Birds, Where's My Water and Facebook, then hustle it with "great marketing", I might have a bit of a problem when I try to sell another product to those people.

But again, this is a matter of your goal. If you goal is to sell one-hit wonders to make a quick buck, then learning to be a killer marketer is your best bet. If you want to create a kick-a$$ software product, then learning how to program is your best option. If you want to become overall great internet entrepreneur, you need to learn how to move traffic.

 

[healthstatus]

Aah, selective hearing. Nobody is suggesting that professional is the level of proficiency needed to make well informed decisions. I suggested a weekend crash course ... not too terribly taxing.

Not selective hearing, my point was that people on this forum since I got here a little more than a year ago, have been on the, "I'm going to learn how to program and write my database app, iPhone app, whatever app, it will only take me a couple of months to learn how". Quickly followed by the, "Programming is easy and outsourcing is hard because they screw you or steal your ideas" and "You have to know how to program to hire someone" mantra. Yet the same people have no problem hiring an accountant, or a lawyer and outsourcing their money and legal advice with no knowledge in those areas. Your strategy of learning about something to help you hire is much better than trying to learn to actually do something with the expectations of producing a professional level result.

But if you are going to learn a skill, learn to sell and write copy. That will literally pay dividends for the rest of your life.

 

[healthstatus]

But again, this is a matter of your goal. If you goal is to sell one-hit wonders to make a quick buck, then learning to be a killer marketer is your best bet. If you want to create a kick-a$$ software product, then learning how to program is your best option. If you want to become overall great internet entrepreneur, you need to learn how to move traffic.

I like the majority of your post, but just wanted to touch on this part.

I didn't generate massive amounts of traffic until I learned how to write press releases, articles and create enticing copy to move people to stay on my site, recommend it to their friends, link to it and bookmark it. In my mind killer marketing is a must to make it in ANY business these days. It will work to make the quick buck (part of my point to finance your projects), but it will serve you in the long term to know how to connect your products to your market.

In my experience with programmers there are three types, bad ones, good ones and superstars. At this point in the Internet game to have a "kick-a$$ software product" you need to have a superstar on your team. This is someone that probably started coding early or pre-teen, and has that logic brain process, knows 6 or 7 different languages proficiently and has already been involved with 10+ professional level apps. You also need someone that is an excellent UI developer, because if the UI isn't right, it doesn't matter how good the code behind it is (and good UI can overcome some bad product - Apple has a great history of this).

At some point you have to sell your idea, whether it is to the consumer, the investor, or to the team you put together to execute it.

 

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[ashj1893]

I've been reading a lot of these threads, and imo I think it's very relative to the individual person..This has been an entire debate of "don't learn to code, it's a waste of time; learn to write copy instead" vs. "learn to code yourself, the Google guys did it, so you should too!" I think that to say that either side is solely correct is quite ignorant. There are just far too many variables to take into account for their to be a concrete answer. If you ask me, I would say that each person should do what they think is best for their own goals, whether they be immediate or long term. Me personally, if my goal were just short term cash with a website, I'd probably just outsource it for a few hundred bucks, OR i might code it myself and get it done for no costs in just a few days. However, that's assuming that I already know how to program. That's my point exactly..the world of business is a numbers game, it's all about being able to calculate multiple variables and risks associated, how long the window of opportunity stays open, among other things, and making the best decision based upon your own conclusions, all of which are based upon your own unique situations and thought process...

 

[theag]

Your strategy of learning about something to help you hire is much better than trying to learn to actually do something with the expectations of producing a professional level result.

Thats what I'm saying all the time, but you still disagree with me. Somehow you contradict yourself, I have the exact same opinion as you

 

[LamboMP]

Learning programming takes months.

I don't recall him ever saying this..

 

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[The-J]

I want to know how much traffic your most successful Web business has.

Programming may be a more time-intensive skill, but marketing is absolutely the entry barrier. If you hire a programmer, all you have to do is pay them and send them support issues so they can fix it. Just because you can write copy doesn't mean you can move traffic. Everyone on the Internet can write copy and make PPC ads. If you write great copy and can find high-converting niches, you can make money on the Internet.

But a Fastlane business is more than that. It's creating a brand and a presence, and only 1% of your brand is your product. The rest of it is how you present the product.

If you want to learn programming, that's fine. Just know that programming is, in itself, not the main entry barrier. There are so many more entry barriers to building a Web business that you should not get stuck on the building of the product.

I agree completely. Too many folks here seemed to pick up only the line that said that you can use marketing to mask crappy product and sell it.


So writing a sales page, creating PPC campaigns and knowing how to post to social media is the entry barrier? I don't think so. Learning AIDA and picking up "Words that sell" etc. isn't really that big of a challenge... After researching Sugarman, Bencivenga, Makepeace, Garfinkel, etc. I can say that creating a basic compelling copy is something you can learn to do in a very short time.

Like you said, the barrier of entry in the web nowadays is traffic. Of course you can put everything under "internet marketing" from traffic driving to copywriting but when I say marketing, I'm talking about "sales and marketing skills". Putting SEO and other technical feats under marketing feels a bit weird to me. If we still use the app example, you need to create something exceptional to get it viral if you don't have any skills to create traffic. You can go at it with few different ways. You can either do media buys and that's when knowing how to do great banners comes in handy but usually startups don't have capital to advertise so now you need to start using free traffic sources like search engines, social media and other audience aggregators. The problem is that that's a full-time + little more job unless you can build a system that does it for you. Now that's where knowing how to programming comes handy. There's so many marketers pushing different products in those channels that you need consistent effort to break thru the noise. Two entrepreneurs pushing product at forum X. The other one scouts the forum for threads to reply in order to get his signature out there. The other one has a bot that monitors forums A, B, C, D...X and gives him a list of threads that match his requirements... now I wonder who is going to keep doing this long enough for it to be beneficial strategy?

I don't know whether it's because some of the people here are still trying to get on the fastlane or if the some of the people here are really short-sighted but the biggest benefit of learning the ropes of how your product is made is the fact that you can create truly quality product. Personally I enjoy being entrepreneur and I don't intend to stop even if I some day achieve this "legendary money". So this guides me to create quality products simply because it's easier to sell to existing customer than it is to find a new one. If I would to go to oDesk and order an app that's mix of Angry Birds, Where's My Water and Facebook, then hustle it with "great marketing", I might have a bit of a problem when I try to sell another product to those people.

But again, this is a matter of your goal. If you goal is to sell one-hit wonders to make a quick buck, then learning to be a killer marketer is your best bet. If you want to create a kick-a$$ software product, then learning how to program is your best option. If you want to become overall great internet entrepreneur, you need to learn how to move traffic.

 

[healthstatus]

I want to know how much traffic your most successful Web business has.

Who are you directing this question at?

 

[The-J]

Who are you directing this question at?

The person who I am quoting in that post.

 

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[qhead]

In my experience with programmers there are three types, bad ones, good ones and superstars. At this point in the Internet game to have a "kick-a$$ software product" you need to have a superstar on your team. This is someone that probably started coding early or pre-teen, and has that logic brain process, knows 6 or 7 different languages proficiently and has already been involved with 10+ professional level apps. You also need someone that is an excellent UI developer, because if the UI isn't right, it doesn't matter how good the code behind it is (and good UI can overcome some bad product - Apple has a great history of this).

At some point you have to sell your idea, whether it is to the consumer, the investor, or to the team you put together to execute it.

The thing with bad and good programmers is that like I said earlier, in many cases the difference is in the specs the client delivers. Of course there's some really crappy programmers around who really just simply can't code but if you hire based on feedback or references you most likely get a good programmer that you yourself make bad because you give bad instructions.

Many wannabe entrepreneurs have this weird belief that programmers are somehow workers who just turn on a lever when you ask them to. In programming the programmer has literally almost infinite amount of choices he or she can me. If you don't tell decisions to those choices, he or she will make them for you - especially if you "instructions" include gems like "it's like the mechanic in Angry Birds you know". Then the programmer makes a copy of what he thinks the mechanic is in the mechanic in Angry Birds. Obvious right? Almost 0% of clients provide sufficient mockups or flowcharts how things need to work.

There's actually only 1 type of programmers - those who can code. The rest can't. Superstars you were talking about are the ones with imagination, look for them in the open-source world.

I want to know how much traffic your most successful Web business has.

I want to know many things too. I will give you the same answer that will apply to the end of times: not enough.

Programming may be a more time-intensive skill, but marketing is absolutely the entry barrier. If you hire a programmer, all you have to do is pay them and send them support issues so they can fix it. Just because you can write copy doesn't mean you can move traffic. Everyone on the Internet can write copy and make PPC ads. If you write great copy and can find high-converting niches, you can make money on the Internet.

You obviously don't have any products that require a lots of code. Go ahead, create a great software product and see where it gets you when all you do is hire a programmer. By the way, where does the product come from that you need to support? Your post makes me think that you are mixing up programming to fixing up small bugs.

But a Fastlane business is more than that. It's creating a brand and a presence, and only 1% of your brand is your product. The rest of it is how you present the product.

Yeah well, it seems that we have a wee bit different view of business. If this approach works for you, good for you. Personally I would never ever want to buy anything from a company/person who operates so that their brand is 99% sizzle and 1% substance.

 

[healthstatus]

There's actually only 1 type of programmers - those who can code. The rest can't.

That statement is just crap. Some people have more talent and skill than others.

I want to know many things too. I will give you the same answer that will apply to the end of times: not enough.

If you worked on your sales skills maybe you could sell more to the traffic you have. Traffic is like money, there is plenty, you just have to find it and attract it.

From your initial post on this thread, you have said you can hire out marketing just as easily as you can hire out programming. But this thread was directed at newbies who think they can learn to program in a few months and be ready to produce a professional app. 1) they can't, and 2) they justify it by saying they have limited capital. If they learn to market first, they can generate enough cash to fund their project. If they learn to program first, all they have is a half-assed crappy product and no idea how to sell it, or they stick it on an app store and wonder why it never sells. and no capital to hire a copywriter (your solution).

If you have plenty of capital, hiring experts is the way to go and build your team. (you can hire anyone that code, I will work with experts and talented people).

 

[Icy]

There's actually only 1 type of programmers - those who can code. The rest can't. Superstars you were talking about are the ones with imagination, look for them in the open-source world.

I constantly thought the same thing as I was learning and getting better at programming. In my mind it didn't seem like it would be that hard to make some of the cool things out there. As you work on larger projects though it quickly becomes evident that there is another whole level between the programmers that can simply get things working and those that truly know what they are doing.

Yes, there are probably a lot of people that can get something working, but if you hope to be able to maintain, and build upon an existing system it can become quite the huge time sink with something that is simply made to work in a predefined way.

 

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[tincho1492]

I constantly thought the same thing as I was learning and getting better at programming. In my mind it didn't seem like it would be that hard to make some of the cool things out there. As you work on larger projects though it quickly becomes evident that there is another whole level between the programmers that can simply get things working and those that truly know what they are doing.

Yes, there are probably a lot of people that can get something working, but if you hope to be able to maintain, and build upon an existing system it can become quite the huge time sink with something that is simply made to work in a predefined way.

Completely agree. I'm learning it the hard way. At least my basic/semi-medium knowledge helped to get out there my startup, but the more I try to take my project to the next level the more I found that I MUST hire a senior dev.

This year one thing that I'm realizing is that if you want to scale your business you have to hire people. It's very clear now. In part because I read "Built to sell" and "E-myth" and in part because I don't want to struggle being in the same place for months.

they justify it by saying they have limited capital. If they learn to market first, they can generate enough cash to fund their project

So true. I thought the same. Now I'm in a position of being the sales guy (for a while) and start to market my shit.

 

[Felix II]

Learning to program vs outsourcing: A case study about me

First off, I program for a living, though I am not a programmer (I am an electrical engineer). I am not a good programmer, but I have an advanced understanding of programming (I do a lot of embedded systems in the medical field that require super tight real-time code, all programmed in C).

I can program most any real (i.e., not html or scripting) language and create almost any result I want. However, my code will be spaghetti compared to a real programmer and I wouldn't build a business around my software products (no scale, no maintainability).
(The exception to this is embedded applications in C. I am good in writing clean real-time code using good architecture and coding practices.)

Now, here is my situation.
I've identified a need in the area of quality management and regulatory compliance. I want to create a lightweight web based application to fill this need.
Because this is an expensive and difficult area, I would need close to $300,000 USD to develop this if I hire a team.

Why $300,000?
1. $80k-$100k each for two software developers
2. $110k+ for a regulatory expert

This is how I'd prefer to develop. But this isn't reality.

Now many people will say that $160k-$200k for developing a web app is too much. But trust me, as an INSIDERS I know what I need. This is not a limiting belief. This is what I need to produce an application that adheres to the quality system requirements I need it to meet.


So my options are to either try to sell my idea to investors or get a co-founder. Both of these are not something I want to do. Therefore I'm going to learn how to develop web applications and do the MVP myself.

I am going to spend the next year learning to code and developing my MVP. Once I have my MVP and am earning revenue, then I will hire a team to build the next iteration and do updates/fixes in house.

At the end of his, I will have spent a year learning how to build solid web applications using a variety of tools. If my business fails, I can immediately start my next idea without trying to come up with the capital to hire developers. This is a huge asset, and has already been stated, eliminates a HUGE barrier to entry.

So in my case, hiring a programmer is unrealistic and my only option is to learn to code it myself.

 

[healthstatus]

So my options are to either try to sell my idea to investors or get a co-founder.

There are many more options than that. Not knowing what you think your price point for your software will be once you release it means you may need to tweak my suggestions here. 1) Can you find a regulatory consultant that just retired or is in the consulting business that you don't have to have full time? Can you cut that fee down to 1/3rd? 2) Can you get 2 or 3 of your future customers to commit to a 25% deposit on your project based on a 6 month delivery of beta level software and they get input into the design, at delivery of beta they will owe 50%, then the remainder on final delivery? 3) Check your coder pricing, I outsource some very complex projects to extremely talented coders that I pay about $3k/month (less than half your lowest rate) to get this first version going you could start there, then pull future iterations in house once you have sold enough copies to justify that, this would be better and faster than you converting from a spaghetti coder to a production coder.

So in my case, hiring a programmer is unrealistic and my only option is to learn to code it myself.

I really don't agree.

 

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[Knowledge Kick]

Learning to program vs outsourcing: A case study about me
Why $300,000?
1. $80k-$100k each for two software developers
2. $110k+ for a regulatory expert

I'm not an expert in this matter, but I would think that you could achieve this goal MUCH CHEAPER than you are budgeting for.

 

[MCaruso]

Very good thread Healthstatus, I am currently in the same boat as you. I hired a developer to build my app for me, which is in the final stages of development now. While they are building it (I also have VERY LITTLE experience with coding/programming), It gives me those hours back that I would have to spend coding to market the app. The app will be launching within the next 3 weeks; if I were to learn how to code and build it myslef I would be looking at a release date of probably 4-5 months from now, which could be a major opportunity cost of sales.

ALTHOUGH, I do believe that there is no such thing as a useless, wasted skill, especially computer/web programming. The doors that open up with fine tuned skills like that are priceless. I myself am planning on learning to code within the next year and can't be more excited about it.

Interested in hearing what everyone thinks about this subject!

 

[healthstatus]

Very good thread Healthstatus

Thanks.

ALTHOUGH, I do believe that there is no such thing as a useless, wasted skill, especially computer/web programming. The doors that open up with fine tuned skills like that are priceless. I myself am planning on learning to code within the next year and can't be more excited about it.

My semi-proficient juggling skills are pretty useless. I get what you are saying. The WHOLE point of this thread is that going from 0 to professional programmer capable of producing high quality apps in a few months is just not based in reality. Anyone considering that, 1) stop, 2) spend your time learning to market as it is fairly straight forward to learn, and you can start producing money fairly quickly from that study (sure there are nuances that will take years to master, but you can be effective quickly). That will allow you to fund projects, acquire products to sell as your own, create a team, whatever, but basically get MONEY faster. Once you have that skill, the world is your oyster, you can learn anything you want, get more technical training if you want, or just get really excellent at marketing and make lots of money. You don't have support issues with a bad advertisement, you don't have pissed off clients because your sales letter has a "bug" in it.

 

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[qhead]

That statement is just crap. Some people have more talent and skill than others.

If you worked on your sales skills maybe you could sell more to the traffic you have. Traffic is like money, there is plenty, you just have to find it and attract it.

Pretty great insights, now I'm enlightened.

From your initial post on this thread, you have said you can hire out marketing just as easily as you can hire out programming. But this thread was directed at newbies who think they can learn to program in a few months and be ready to produce a professional app. 1) they can't, and 2) they justify it by saying they have limited capital. If they learn to market first, they can generate enough cash to fund their project. If they learn to program first, all they have is a half-assed crappy product and no idea how to sell it, or they stick it on an app store and wonder why it never sells. and no capital to hire a copywriter (your solution).

If you have plenty of capital, hiring experts is the way to go and build your team. (you can hire anyone that code, I will work with experts and talented people).

Hehe, so let me get this right. If they learn to market, the money will magically start to appear? Now that they know kungfu they can just whip out affiliate campaigns and get all the clients they want.. I think I saw similar pitch at WarriorForum.com few days back. You might want to check it out, it's full of people who won't argue with your "insights".

Back to the story of the newbie. Now that they are professional marketers who has money rolling in, they can finally hire a programmer to do this awesome app they originally visioned. Never mind that they have no idea what the programmer is actually doing so they can't verify the quality of the work. After few weeks the progress starts to slow down and asks for more money. You have no idea whether he has legitimate problems or if he is just milking for more money. But hey, you don't care because you have money rolling in.. I still don't know where but it must come because you know marketing...

You are probably also those guys who hire accountant because they don't want to learn the basics of your own finances. Shall I say Nicholas Cage?

Oh and by the way, it's totally realistic to learn to be a good programmer in few months. Of course you won't be writing algorithms for Google but with all the tools and frameworks, it's easier than ever. Hell, I have seen one guy becoming quite good programmer in less than a month but that takes a lot of time and effort which of course could have been used for learning marketing but hey, some people are just stupid.

But I do understand what you are saying and advising. I just happen to think that it's a dumb advice.

I constantly thought the same thing as I was learning and getting better at programming. In my mind it didn't seem like it would be that hard to make some of the cool things out there. As you work on larger projects though it quickly becomes evident that there is another whole level between the programmers that can simply get things working and those that truly know what they are doing.

Yes, there are probably a lot of people that can get something working, but if you hope to be able to maintain, and build upon an existing system it can become quite the huge time sink with something that is simply made to work in a predefined way.

Yes and no. There's a difference between a guy who knows how to do a quick PHP script and those who can build modular webapps. But in many cases the difference is also created by the guy who designs the app and tells everybody what needs to be done and how. For me one of the biggest jumps in technical productivity happened when I started properly design whatever I needed to do the right way (paper seems to work the best for me). It's the same as everything in the business, if you don't design the app as a process, you'll end up with a chaos that's really hard to maintain and debug.

For example I outsourced the last coding project for one of our internal systems. I knew what the coders were going to be doing so by designing it properly, I was able to hire a bunch of guys really cheap to do simple things and it didn't matter if they knew how to create huge webapps because their only goal was the get the one thing working. This particular project is about 50000 lines of code which I consider a medium sized project that really needs a good structure to be maintainable. Well, now that project is in production, debugging has been really easy because everything is structured, documented and the code follows predefined conventions.

 

[healthstatus]

But I do understand what you are saying and advising. I just happen to think that it's a dumb advice.

Yet all you do is say that outsourcing never works because the specs suck. So learning to program in a few months also makes you an expert at specifications and how to write your own app in a quality fashion? Now that they know your kungfu they will be able to anticipate SQL injection attacks, user stupidness, database table structures and indexing for speed. You say it is easier to create an app with frameworks, then what?? Oh, then they have to market the app, or is it Field of Dreams, make it and they will come???

You are probably also those guys who hire accountant because they don't want to learn the basics of your own finances.

:nono: Personal attacks, Really? I suggest you start your own thread and leave mine alone now.

 

[Whole Paradigm]

Yet all you do is say that outsourcing never works because the specs suck. So learning to program in a few months also makes you an expert at specifications and how to write your own app in a quality fashion? Now that they know your kungfu they will be able to anticipate SQL injection attacks, user stupidness, database table structures and indexing for speed. You say it is easier to create an app with frameworks, then what?? Oh, then they have to market the app, or is it Field of Dreams, make it and they will come???



:nono: Personal attacks, Really? I suggest you start your own thread and leave mine alone now.

Yeah let's chill out on the hostility all. Just because we may not all share the same viewpoints doesn't mean that any of us is any less intelligent and we are all entitled to our opinions and ways of doing things. I have followed every one of healthstatus's posts and admire/ lookup to, and have learned a great deal from him and others. These types of debates are healthy and often times open up peoples minds.


All the best,

Cory

 

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[Felix II]

There are many more options than that. Not knowing what you think your price point for your software will be once you release it means you may need to tweak my suggestions here. 1) Can you find a regulatory consultant that just retired or is in the consulting business that you don't have to have full time? Can you cut that fee down to 1/3rd? 2) Can you get 2 or 3 of your future customers to commit to a 25% deposit on your project based on a 6 month delivery of beta level software and they get input into the design, at delivery of beta they will owe 50%, then the remainder on final delivery? 3) Check your coder pricing, I outsource some very complex projects to extremely talented coders that I pay about $3k/month (less than half your lowest rate) to get this first version going you could start there, then pull future iterations in house once you have sold enough copies to justify that, this would be better and faster than you converting from a spaghetti coder to a production coder.



I really don't agree.

Thanks, Healthstatus! I haven't though about trying to get customers to front a deposit. It is my goal to obtain 100 customers with my MVP, but really there is no reason I can't try to sell the concept before I have my beta.


The problem with outsourcing is twofold:
1. Quality management.
2. Quality of code.

And by quality control, I mean documentation and design controls (which most programmers know little about). This is something that I need done to at least ISO 9001 specifications. Not that I've tried (though I do know the market somewhat), but I'd be surprised if I can find local (as in the U.S.) talent for less than 100$ per hour that could meet my requirements. Of course, I'd love to be wrong .

The bottom line is there are somethings only a fool would outsource, and somethings only a fool would not outsource.

Unfortunately in my case, I'd be a fool to outsource it to any company that I could afford to outsource it to.

Let me be clear that I am not arguing with your premise. I actually agree that in a lot of cases outsourcing is better. I'm just trying to make the point that outsourcing is not always an option unless you have the money, and even then sometimes outsourcing won't cut it (you need in-house developers which means way more $$$ and infrastructure).

 

[qhead]

Yet all you do is say that outsourcing never works because the specs suck. So learning to program in a few months also makes you an expert at specifications and how to write your own app in a quality fashion? Now that they know your kungfu they will be able to anticipate SQL injection attacks, user stupidness, database table structures and indexing for speed. You say it is easier to create an app with frameworks, then what?? Oh, then they have to market the app, or is it Field of Dreams, make it and they will come???

It's as much Field of Dreams as your market and the cash will start rolling in.. however this way they actually have a product... You obviously have no idea what you are talking about so it's a waste of time for me to even try to educate you.

It's really ironic that you are advocating that they learn marketing but obviously don't know marketing very well.

:nono: Personal attacks, Really? I suggest you start your own thread and leave mine alone now.

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you made this thread with provocative title and then start to cry when somebody disrespectfully disagrees with your idiotic notions about things you clearly have no experience with.

Yeah let's chill out on the hostility all. Just because we may not all share the same viewpoints doesn't mean that any of us is any less intelligent and we are all entitled to our opinions and ways of doing things. I have followed every one of healthstatus's posts and admire/ lookup to, and have learned a great deal from him and others. These types of debates are healthy and often times open up peoples minds.

If you actually read the sentence, I'm just mirroring what he advices others to do. So if he reads that as a personal attack when it doesn't contain anything else except the method he advocates others to take.. then maybe it's time to look at the mirror and stop blaming other people.

Look few sentences above, there's your personal attack. I'm not the type of people who silently smiles while somebody says something idiotic and tries to pass it as wisdom. I really suggest you use your own brain and stop looking up to people like healthstatus. In the worst case you are going to follow some of his advice. Anybody who starts a thread like this isn't worth of listening to.

 

[Runum]

Cory has already requested that everyone chill out. This thread has been reported for the personal attacks. I honestly have not read the complete thread so I am not taking sides. We need to learn to agree to disagree and stop at that.

If the attacks do not stop the thread will be locked.

 

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[theag]

This thread has been reported for the personal attacks.

Wow, people seriously report this? You guys should develop a thicker skin, thats hilarious.

 

[healthstatus]

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about so it's a waste of time for me to even try to educate you.

I think the only thing that is obvious around here is you have very few posts, no reputation and you like to type a lot.

I am doing fine without your "education". My primary website has had over 8 million visits in the last 12 months, I have multiple websites making 6 figures a year and my software is purchased and used by Fortune 50 companies on their websites. I have been online building websites since 1995, everything self-funded. I know how to code, I know how to market. I also share my insights on forums like this, and based on the reputation rating and likes I have, others have found the information to be useful and positive. I have shared my websites and stats on this site for others to examine and model. All you have shared is rambling diatribes and resorted to name calling.

then start to cry when somebody disrespectfully disagrees with your idiotic notions about things you clearly have no experience with.

My track record makes it obvious who the idiot is in this conversation.

I'm not the type of people who silently smiles while somebody says something idiotic and tries to pass it as wisdom.

You are also not the type of "people" to listen to someone with experience and wisdom and learn from it.

 

[Knowledge Kick]

I am doing fine without your "education". My primary website has had over 8 million visits in the last 12 months, I have multiple websites making 6 figures a year and my software is purchased and used by Fortune 50 companies on their websites. I have been online building websites since 1995, everything self-funded. I know how to code, I know how to market.

Game-Set-Match.

 

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[LamboMP]

I think the whole point here is, you don't have to agree, and you don't have to post in this thread. The thread title was to get peoples attention, which I think it did. While I may not agree with everything healthstatus has said in this post, he has some excellent points that you can learn from.

You absolutely can "tuck, barter, and exchange" skills. Is this the approach you want to take, qhead? Perhaps not. No need to go on a bender.

 

[qhead]

I think the only thing that is obvious around here is you have very few posts, no reputation and you like to type a lot.

Really, the worth of somebody's posts depends on their post count? This is good to know for anybody around here. Next time (which won't come obviously) I say something to you I'll keep in mind to first write a lot of positive posts so I suddenly come credible.

I am doing fine without your "education". My primary website has had over 8 million visits in the last 12 months, I have multiple websites making 6 figures a year and my software is purchased and used by Fortune 50 companies on their websites. I have been online building websites since 1995, everything self-funded. I know how to code, I know how to market. I also share my insights on forums like this, and based on the reputation rating and likes I have, others have found the information to be useful and positive. I have shared my websites and stats on this site for others to examine and model. All you have shared is rambling diatribes and resorted to name calling.

Oh wow, now it makes sense, I should listen to you because you post at some online forum and people press a thumb up icon. Not to mention that your insights are positive! I think educating you would land somewhere around priority googol so don't worry, I won't.

But in all seriousness, I listen people who I respect and the fact that you start a thread like this doesn't give very intelligence first impression. Your follow up posts haven't improved that impression, quite the contrary. Sorry, but the fact that you have websites that makes money couldn't impress me less. I have made enough money and seen enough people to make a lot of money that I really don't associate making money with being worth of attention in anyway. But I do have to thank you for reminding me again why money doesn't correlate with anything real. There's a insight for all you new comers. Don't know if it's positive enough for you but frankly I really don't care - if you can't take it, there's really nothing I can do.

Just for the sake of sharing can you please tell me the name of your company so I'll make a note never to do business with you or your company.

My track record makes it obvious who the idiot is in this conversation.

You are also not the type of "people" to listen to someone with experience and wisdom and learn from it.

Do you realize at all how ridiculous this sounds when you know absolutely nothing about me? For all you know I could be Richard Branson or Sergey Brin. There's a reason why I don't share anything identifiable about my businesses... I have seen so many people like you but nowadays I tend to avoid reading forums like this because folks like you make me lose my faith in the human intelligence.