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Ruggedo

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Yeah I think the transition was more complex than they expected/ realized.

I have a good site up and running currently through them and they are building the second site currently. I haven’t gotten more than the minimum yet which isn’t exactly what I was hoping for but it’s where it currently is at.

As of where it stands right now I wouldn’t put anymore money with them until I start actually getting more than the minimum. I like the change into e-commerce as that’s something that I think will be better long term imo but short term it has caused some issues with getting new sites up and building those sites at scale.

Can you explain wht you mean by "the change into e-commerce"? Are you saying that their focus has changed from ad-based and affiliate revenue to selling branded lines of products or services?
 
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Yeah I think the transition was more complex than they expected/ realized.

I have a good site up and running currently through them and they are building the second site currently. I haven’t gotten more than the minimum yet which isn’t exactly what I was hoping for but it’s where it currently is at.

As of where it stands right now I wouldn’t put anymore money with them until I start actually getting more than the minimum. I like the change into e-commerce as that’s something that I think will be better long term imo but short term it has caused some issues with getting new sites up and building those sites at scale.

Ok makes sense. Still better returns than most stock portfolio investments I guess. With much better long term potential. Thanks for the info though, very helpful!
 

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Can you explain wht you mean by "the change into e-commerce"? Are you saying that their focus has changed from ad-based and affiliate revenue to selling branded lines of products or services?
Correct. They were building/buying authority sites that made ad revenue via Adsense etc. but they were driving a lot of traffic via Facebook/ SEO. When Facebook changed the organic reach of pages a year or so ago it hurt many of their sites traffic a lot. They have also been battling with the google algorithm updates every time they drop.

They changed to e-commerce to drive traffic rather than hope the next change didn’t hurt them. They still have authority sites for existing partners but I believe all new partners are getting e-commerce sites.
 

ns2416

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I think the big push back is not that he's looking for advice to buy it - it's that he's already bought it and now everybody's pooh-poohing on the investment idea.
I don’t get any of you. Yes, he invested 100k, and he is getting a 15% annual return for it, guaranteed, or it could be better if the web site grows, which is what they manage and since it is to their advantage to grow the business Thru their expertise, while the passive investor watches, and earns. Is not 15% great. Now, obviously it depends on whether he still has the 100k invested ownership, which he can still sell. Hey, stock returns are so labile, that the same 100k could be worth a lot less, and some days a lot more. Pick the day, but 15% would be fine!
 
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bravusha

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Hey Ecom m
Correct. They were building/buying authority sites that made ad revenue via Adsense etc. but they were driving a lot of traffic via Facebook/ SEO. When Facebook changed the organic reach of pages a year or so ago it hurt many of their sites traffic a lot. They have also been battling with the google algorithm updates every time they drop.

They changed to e-commerce to drive traffic rather than hope the next change didn’t hurt them. They still have authority sites for existing partners but I believe all new partners are getting e-commerce sites.


Hey Ecom man,

Are you happy with the service now that they have worked out the kinks? I have been in discussions with them and am interested in proceeding with income store pending some answers to contractual questions I have. Any issues with the monthly payment? Or concerns that they could all of a sudden not be able to pay?

Also, regarding the e-commerce site, what is the deal with product liability?

Thanks in advance!
 

bravusha

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Ok makes sense. Still better returns than most stock portfolio investments I guess. With much better long term potential. Thanks for the info though, very helpful!


Hi NatalieC,

Did you ever proceed with them? Any thoughts or insights you could share? Thanks in advance!
 

Ecom man

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Hey Ecom m



Hey Ecom man,

Are you happy with the service now that they have worked out the kinks? I have been in discussions with them and am interested in proceeding with income store pending some answers to contractual questions I have. Any issues with the monthly payment? Or concerns that they could all of a sudden not be able to pay?

Also, regarding the e-commerce site, what is the deal with product liability?

Thanks in advance!
Haven’t had any issues with monthly payments but if it’s not legit there wouldn’t be issues with payments either... I’m not saying that I think they are a ponzi scheme or anything like that but the monthly payments can be payed out for years just on your original investment so that’s not a good measure of stability.

I currently have 2 sites with them (one they bought and one they built from scratch). The new build has virtually no traffic and is more a blog type site. The site they bought is E-commerce which currently isn’t producing enough income to put me into overage.

I’m not planning on buying another site with them until the first purchase is showing some good results. Up until now I have not been impressed with the site’s results or with the time it took to get to this point.
 
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CareCPA

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The site they bought is E-commerce which currently isn’t producing enough income to put me into overage.
Do you have access to the site to verify stats, or are you just relying on reports they send you?
 

Ecom man

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Do you have access to the site to verify stats, or are you just relying on reports they send you?
Yes I have access to verify stats directly from Shopify.
 

Ecom man

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Being that the lawyer wasn’t even smart enough to google whether it was registered in Pennsylvania (where they have a headquarters) I don’t know how much stock I put in what she says... it could certainly be a Ponzi scheme... but I personally don’t think so... I guess time will tell.
 

Ecom man

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Seems like a Ponzi scheme for sure.
I disagree as if it was a Ponzi scheme I feel like their results would be far more consistent and not changing from one type of site to another as why go through the hassle if they are just faking results anyway. I also think they would be turning a profit immediately on new sites to encourage people to invest more and tell others about their great fast results rather than the slower time that it has been to get into overage currently.

I could certainly be wrong... but based off of those and other things I don’t think I am.
 
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bravusha

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Haven’t had any issues with monthly payments but if it’s not legit there wouldn’t be issues with payments either... I’m not saying that I think they are a ponzi scheme or anything like that but the monthly payments can be payed out for years just on your original investment so that’s not a good measure of stability.

I currently have 2 sites with them (one they bought and one they built from scratch). The new build has virtually no traffic and is more a blog type site. The site they bought is E-commerce which currently isn’t producing enough income to put me into overage.

I’m not planning on buying another site with them until the first purchase is showing some good results. Up until now I have not been impressed with the site’s results or with the time it took to get to this point.

Thanks! I really appreciate the response and the additional insight. It sounds like the switch to e-commerce has been a rough one.

Just so I understand, the two sites were provided as part of your singular investment or did you sign up for two sites? Also, how long did it take from your payment to their initial payment to you, was it within the contracted period?
 

biophase

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I disagree as if it was a Ponzi scheme I feel like their results would be far more consistent and not changing from one type of site to another as why go through the hassle if they are just faking results anyway. I also think they would be turning a profit immediately on new sites to encourage people to invest more and tell others about their great fast results rather than the slower time that it has been to get into overage currently.

I could certainly be wrong... but based off of those and other things I don’t think I am.

I think the main issue here is if you think your current Ecom site is worth $100k in the open market.

I haven't gone back and read through this again, but did you give them $100k to purchase a Ecom website valued at $100k or were they going to make you an Ecom site worth $100k?
 

Ecom man

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Thanks! I really appreciate the response and the additional insight. It sounds like the switch to e-commerce has been a rough one.

Just so I understand, the two sites were provided as part of your singular investment or did you sign up for two sites? Also, how long did it take from your payment to their initial payment to you, was it within the contracted period?
Two sites were for the single investment. They build one and buy one for the $$$.
 
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Ecom man

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I think the main issue here is if you think your current Ecom site is worth $100k in the open market.

I haven't gone back and read through this again, but did you give them $100k to purchase a Ecom website valued at $100k or were they going to make you an Ecom site worth $100k?
The site they have built over the last year is probably worth 5k at most. The bought site is currently worth around 75k on the open market is my best guess. That is of course subjective but based off a couple of website sales calculators and average Ecom site multiples. So no IMO the sites combined on the open market aren’t worth the 100k originally invested... but I’ve also gotten about 18k in monthly payments so far so worst case scenario I’m probably close to break even at this point.

The 100k is for them to buy a site and then they build a slow growth blog type site as well (at least that’s what it was when I started might be different now).
 

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The site they have built over the last year is probably worth 5k at most. The bought site is currently worth around 75k on the open market is my best guess. That is of course subjective but based off a couple of website sales calculators and average Ecom site multiples. So no IMO the sites combined on the open market aren’t worth the 100k originally invested... but I’ve also gotten about 18k in monthly payments so far so worst case scenario I’m probably close to break even at this point.

The 100k is for them to buy a site and then they build a slow growth blog type site as well (at least that’s what it was when I started might be different now).

How are you at the break even point, if you've only been paid $18k, but it cost you $100k?

Do you mean, you borrowed $80k and only put up $20k of your own money? If so... nice.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7SpXGz-XOc
 

bravusha

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The site they have built over the last year is probably worth 5k at most. The bought site is currently worth around 75k on the open market is my best guess. That is of course subjective but based off a couple of website sales calculators and average Ecom site multiples. So no IMO the sites combined on the open market aren’t worth the 100k originally invested... but I’ve also gotten about 18k in monthly payments so far so worst case scenario I’m probably close to break even at this point.

The 100k is for them to buy a site and then they build a slow growth blog type site as well (at least that’s what it was when I started might be different now).


Hey Biophase,

I am currently looking to possibly go down this road with them so have been curious about ecom's experience with them. Basically, how it is explained (from my understanding) is that the 100K is used to purchase an existing site with existing revenue stream...theoretically the site they purchase should be doing around 30-50K in gross revenue due to the valuation multiple to buy it. They then are supposed to "enhance" the site and business model to grow the revenue (I was not aware of the second site that Ecom mentions...this may be something they used to do but do not anymore, not sure). Within a certain time frame (60-90 days from your investment) they commit/guarantee to pay you a monthly payment equal to 15% of your investment annually (so 1,250 per month) regardless of how much the actual revenue is (unless it's higher). Once the revenue goes above 1,250 per month you split the incremental with them 50/50.

They say that 60% of their sites earn more than the minimum within the first year, 90% of them earn more within the 2nd year, and 100% earn more within 3 years. How much more is much more of an elusive question.

They started with authority sites and have switched over to e-commerce sites recently due to the changing web landscape as they have explained it.


To 100k, I am assuming the breakeven Ecom is referring to is the 18K he made so far and the value of site/asset at 75K if he was to sell it.
 

MJ DeMarco

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The biggest industry in the world isn't oil and gas and it isn't even healthcare...

...it's the business of easy.


The business of shortcuts.

Amazing what people will do (and buy) so they can avoid the struggle and the process behind it.

As I have oft repeated: The difficulty is not the difficulty itself, but the difficulty in finding a shortcut to avoid the difficulty. This is why people struggle over and over and over...

To 100k, I am assuming the breakeven Ecom is referring to is the 18K he made so far and the value of site/asset at 75K if he was to sell it.

Haven’t had any issues with monthly payments but if it’s not legit there wouldn’t be issues with payments either... I’m not saying that I think they are a ponzi scheme or anything like that but the monthly payments can be payed out for years just on your original investment so that’s not a good measure of stability.

That's the essence of a Ponzi scheme. Pay a large sum of money, get periodic payments of a decent return with the assumption that your original investment is still intact. I'm not suggesting this is one overtly (or even purposely), but when junk properties that make $43.01 in Adsense per month and you promise what CANNOT be promised, eventually it becomes one.
 

bravusha

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The biggest industry in the world isn't oil and gas and it isn't even healthcare...

...it's the business of easy.


The business of shortcuts.

Amazing what people will do (and buy) so they can avoid the struggle and the process behind it.

As I have oft repeated: The difficulty is not the difficulty itself, but the difficulty in finding a shortcut to avoid the difficulty. This is why people struggle over and over and over...





That's the essence of a Ponzi scheme. Pay a large sum of money, get periodic payments of a decent return with the assumption that your original investment is still intact. I'm not suggesting this is one overtly (or even purposely), but when junk properties that make $43.01 in Adsense per month and you promise what CANNOT be promised, eventually it becomes one.


Hey MJ,

I appreciate you taking the time to respond to this thread...I'm very new to this forum but I understand you are the inspiration behind all of this, so again, thanks for taking the time.

To be candid, you have me concerned...I've seen a few folks mention this sounds like a Ponzi. I don't have any great arguments to defend this (nor would I really want to try as I don't have knowledge beyond speaking with them a bit and my own "investigations") but as someone who is looking to potentially proceed, the alarm bells people keep ringing are concerning.

The business has been around for a couple decades, regularly makes the inc. list, and has been mentioned on Forbes...I understand none of this means they are not a ponzi but I've definitely used it to convince myself that maybe they aren't. When people ask why would you split 50% of the revenue with them, for me, it is because they would be doing all the work to grow and manage the site, so it's like hiring a company (without the hassles of recruiting, interviewing, employee management, etc). Why they would do it with partners like ecom or me and not just make the money all for themselves, from my perspective, is because they have access to capital free of interest to quickly gain access to a revenue stream that they didn't have before. They are providing a service (that's what I keep telling myself anyway).

This is a segue into your comment on avoiding the hard work...yes, 100%, I am trying to avoid that effort but still gain access to a passive income stream to help me support my family. I am not trying to make excuses but here is my deal: my wife and I have been primary caregivers for my parents for the past 19 years (they were both diagnosed with Alzheimer's 20 years ago). I just don't have it in me to work full-time to support our household of 7, come home and then care for them (which I can't describe how difficult that is) so my wife gets a break and doesn't off herself one day, and then to work on the process you recommend, I just don't...not yet anyway! When my circumstances change, that will be different. But for now, I really need a passive income stream with minimal work (sounds like lala land, I know!), which means I am willing to take a chance, leveraging my home in part, to pay someone else to help me provide it. It might be stupid and I know others have it worse, but I can't explain in words what its like to care for two people with Alzheimer's for so long (last family vacation: 2003; 5: total nights out with wife for dinner over the last 12 years)...etc etc.

Don't mean to make a sob story but that is my reasoning (flawed or not) behind why I've been looking into this service; and that is what it seems like to me, a service. There are likely better returns out there but I'm not sure if there are for the same (minimal) amount of daily effort. Ecom has a site, it is generating revenue (not a lot at this point) and that is covering the payments they make to him so is it a ponzi scheme? Or is it a service business that someone created to "take advantage" of people that want to make some extra money with little effort, that maximizes their return while minimizing their investment?

That last bit wasn't rhetorical...it is the question I am grappling with. If you all, with a tremendous amount more experience than me, feel strongly that this couldn't be a legit business then I am honestly concerned to continue...but if it is a service business that is more profitable to them than me but still meets my goals (and won't rob me eventually) then I am OK with that, for now, until my situation changes.

Ugh, really sorry everyone for the long post!!! But I hope it made sense..
 
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Ecom man

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How are you at the break even point, if you've only been paid $18k, but it cost you $100k?

Do you mean, you borrowed $80k and only put up $20k of your own money? If so... nice.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7SpXGz-XOc
No, the site that they bought which I own is worth approximately 75k and the site they built is worth probably 5k as it sits now so that plus the money I’ve received in monthly payments puts me at approximately the original investment.
 

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This is a segue into your comment on avoiding the hard work...yes, 100%, I am trying to avoid that effort but still gain access to a passive income stream to help me support my family.

You realize that everything you said is irrelevant? The fact that you want to support your family as well as your personal story doesn't make any investment more or less favorable. You say all this stuff as if there is a correlation between this "opportunity" and your situation ... as if "Well it has to work out, I'm supporting my family!"

That kind of logic will lead you to ruin and makes you pliable to make bad decisions, as we see here.

But for now, I really need a passive income stream with minimal work

Ha Ha, awesome, and I'd like to saddle a unicorn on a beach in Cabo.

Right now I'd really like six-pack abs and rock hard muscle but don't want to eat right or exercise.
 

bravusha

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You realize that everything you said is irrelevant? The fact that you want to support your family as well as your personal story doesn't make any investment more or less favorable. You say all this stuff as if there is a correlation between this "opportunity" and your situation ... as if "Well it has to work out, I'm supporting my family!"

That kind of logic will lead you to ruin and makes you pliable to make bad decisions, as we see here.



Ha Ha, awesome, and I'd like to saddle a unicorn on a beach in Cabo.

Right now I'd really like six-pack abs and rock hard muscle but don't want to eat right or exercise.


Can't really argue with your points obviously (except for the "Everything" I said was irrelevant...vast majority maybe but not "everything", c'mon, throw me a bone here) and I do understand (and even agree) with what you are trying to pound into my thick skull here...and obviously that is my biggest concern: making a poor decision based on how I am viewing the circumstances driving me.

With that being said, to be clear, I was explaining my thought process, how/why I approached this (flawed and all) the way I did/am; not trying to say it was wrong, smart, etc

As for unicorns, never a fan myself.

So from your perspective, providing capital (and the inherent risk therein) to another business for them to invest and manage for me) is a poor decision? And tantamount to wanting to have six pack abs without exercising or watching what I'm eating?

Continued thanks for taking the time!!
 
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Ecom man

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The biggest industry in the world isn't oil and gas and it isn't even healthcare...

...it's the business of easy.


The business of shortcuts.

Amazing what people will do (and buy) so they can avoid the struggle and the process behind it.

As I have oft repeated: The difficulty is not the difficulty itself, but the difficulty in finding a shortcut to avoid the difficulty. This is why people struggle over and over and over...





That's the essence of a Ponzi scheme. Pay a large sum of money, get periodic payments of a decent return with the assumption that your original investment is still intact. I'm not suggesting this is one overtly (or even purposely), but when junk properties that make $43.01 in Adsense per month and you promise what CANNOT be promised, eventually it becomes one.
That would certainly be true except that my site isn’t an Adsense site making $43 a month. It’s an e-commerce site worth approximately 75k on the open market (of course the valuation is certainly subjective but that’s based on my personal valuation of the site)

You certainly could be right about it being a Ponzi scheme but if so they are not going about it a very smart way. The minimum is 100k. If it’s a Ponzi to me the minimum would be 5-10k or even lower to try and get as many people as possible. They’ve been in business for close to 2 decades and have been on the Inc 500/5000 list multiple times which again doesn’t rule it out but 20 years is a long time to hide the true nature of your business and if you aren’t a legit business why would you apply to be on those lists and shine a light onto your business?

My experience with them has been less than stellar in regards to the time it took to get a site and to get that site into overage. If they were a Ponzi wouldn’t they be showing spectacular results to try and get me to invest more and tell everyone how amazing it is?

I certainly could be wrong and the future could certainly prove you right but to me the issues I’ve experienced since investing has made me more sure that it isn’t a Ponzi than I was when I first invested the money.
 

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Hey Biophase,

I am currently looking to possibly go down this road with them so have been curious about ecom's experience with them. Basically, how it is explained (from my understanding) is that the 100K is used to purchase an existing site with existing revenue stream...theoretically the site they purchase should be doing around 30-50K in gross revenue due to the valuation multiple to buy it. They then are supposed to "enhance" the site and business model to grow the revenue (I was not aware of the second site that Ecom mentions...this may be something they used to do but do not anymore, not sure). Within a certain time frame (60-90 days from your investment) they commit/guarantee to pay you a monthly payment equal to 15% of your investment annually (so 1,250 per month) regardless of how much the actual revenue is (unless it's higher). Once the revenue goes above 1,250 per month you split the incremental with them 50/50.

They say that 60% of their sites earn more than the minimum within the first year, 90% of them earn more within the 2nd year, and 100% earn more within 3 years. How much more is much more of an elusive question.

They started with authority sites and have switched over to e-commerce sites recently due to the changing web landscape as they have explained it.


To 100k, I am assuming the breakeven Ecom is referring to is the 18K he made so far and the value of site/asset at 75K if he was to sell it.

Why would you even go down this road after the OP's experience? Do you have $100k to spend? Go buy a real $100k business that makes $30k a year. Get your 30% return that you control.

What is the draw for you here?

I might do this deal with you if you really want to waste your money. Give me $100k. I will go purchase a $50k ecom site that makes $15k a year. I will hire a VA for $15k to run the store and put aside $5k to outsource the creation of really crappy secondary site for "SEO". Then I will pocket the $30k for my troubles. I can repeat this with 4 people and pocket $120k and then tell you to wait 3 years for results. Then I dissolve my LLC and sign the stores over to you at the end of a year.
 

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It’s an e-commerce site worth approximately 75k on the open market (of course the valuation is certainly subjective but that’s based on my personal valuation of the site)

If your site is worth $75k, it should be at least bringing in $30k a year right? That's a 2.5x which is generous for a $30k a year site.

But you've only received back $18k. What is it currently bringing you a month?
 
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biophase

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Can't really argue with your points obviously (except for the "Everything" I said was irrelevant...vast majority maybe but not "everything", c'mon, throw me a bone here) .

It's irrelevant because the business you are buying doesn't care about your situation. Does my ecom store do better when my house goes down in value?

Here is what's going to happen to you. You are going to mortgage the home for $100k, join this business and at the end of 3 years you might get back $50k in cashflow (through the ponzi scheme) and end up with an ecommerce site that is worth $50k. So now you received back your initial $100k, but you've paid out $15k in interest. So you are really down $15k after 3 years.

This is one of those investments that if you go through with this, just be willing to lose all of your $100k. If you are fine with that, then you can certainly proceed. These are decisions you need to make in your head before proceeding with any type of investment.
 

mguttman

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Jul 11, 2019
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Payphone scam

My parents were victims of this ATM scam. This scam ran for years and promised and delivered a 20 percent return. Even when I warned them that this looked suspicious, they stayed with it until the whole scam came crashing down.

Income Store may be legitimate, but there are way too many red flags. Guaranteed returns with little to no effort is a major red flag. The fact that their home page looks very amateurish and loads very slowly is another red flag to me.

What do the first two scams and Income Store have in common? They promise a nice return for your money while they do ALL the work.
 
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