Hundreds of Sidewalkers Dogpile Manager on Quora

[Testament]

I have an employee that I manage who's constantly coming in 10+ minutes late. Feeling a bit flustered with it, I do a quick google search for "employee constantly late" and click a couple of the top results. I found a thread on Quora that utterly blew my mind. Check it out if you want to get in your daily dose of shaking your head in disbelief:

https://www.quora.com/I-have-a-staf...nd-someone-to-fill-his-position-What-can-I-do

The OP seems like a pretty friendly, lenient manager from his post and his general responses. And his original question is laid out very sensibly in my opinion. Yet just take a look at the WALLS and WALLS of comment blocks he's getting - over a hundred responses of almost nothing but frothing-at-the-mouth hatred. Sidewalkers really leave me in shocked disbelief sometimes.

"PFFT! How DARE you ask your charming, wonderful, kind, proletariat developer to be on time to work!!"

"WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE HOW LATE HE IS!? You should be FIRED AND NEVER HIRED AGAIN FOR BEING SUCH A HORRIBLE MANAGER!!!"

"Expecting employees to not be 10-20 minutes late every day is a sign of a terrible manager trying to exert his pathetic control over a brilliant employee!"

I'm almost surprised that they didn't attack him for not buying his employee a new Porsche and being his personal doormat every time said employee graced the office with his presence.

Just another all-too-common example of the insanity of sidewalker mentality.

 

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[beatgoezon]

One word... Entitlement...

Something all aspiring Fastlaners(and those who choose to mold a character of excellence) should rid themselves of...

 

[Andy Black]

I read a couple of responses. Yeah, annoying, so not reading any more.

The guy lives 15 minutes walk away and is always 10 minutes late getting in.

It makes his boss look bad. It pisses other people off. He's been told already.

How you do anything is how you do everything.

Turn up 5 minutes late to a meeting with a prospect or an interview and you lose half your credibility immediately.

Don't get me wrong, I used to be late all the time when in an IT department, and in my younger days.

Now I'm older, I realise what actually makes me referrable to other businesses:

Turn up when I say I will...

Do what I say I will (or at least keep them informed if things slip)...

Say please...

Say thank you...



Pretty bleeding simple really.

If I miss any of these, I deserve to lose the client, and for my business to go down the plug-hole.

The guy in question might be talented, but he's not going to survive outside of a comfortable job.

Do you recommend excellent plumbers who are unreliable?


The guy's destined to be one of those who are technically good, yet continue working for someone else.


EDIT: If I was his manager, that's the conversation I'd have with him. Then if he continues being late after that talk, I'd take that as an F.U.

 

[E-Sharp]

The OP seems like a pretty friendly, lenient manager

Maybe that's part of the problem. He complains that the employee's behavior is unacceptable and he's given him "many verbal warnings", but then he says "If he keeps showing up late every day for the next 10 years I still won't fire him because his work makes up for it."
So what is the point of the verbal warnings?

I'm not saying the employee is right (he's not).

 

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[RHL]

Oh, it's that time on the internet again:

 

[Buickestate]

Ohhh this is PET PEEVE of mine. I was hired as a project manager for a start up company, the owner himself was late every single day, leaving me and the shop manager to run the shop under his vague directions. I'm not just talking ten fifteen minutes but two three hours, some days he wouldn't show up till mid afternoon. The shop manager and myself would arrive every day between 6:30-7:00 am ready to work. The other employees would arrive at 8am except for our IT guy who was consistently late anywhere from 15 minutes to 2 hours. The shop manager and I would argue with the owner about the importance of being in the shop during normal business hours for both him and his IT guy. The start up didn't even make it through it's first year, only nine months. The former owner still hasn't grasped why he failed.....

 

[JaxAttacks]

Just wow. I read through a few posts. I echo the " entitlement" post above.

When I was younger, I had this problem. I'd be late a lot.

Now that my mindset has shifted, this kind of thinking is crazy to me.

 

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[juan917]

Pretty surprised by what I'm reading here. Anyone notice this part "produces brilliant work"? Can't hate on that imo. 10 minutes late is nothing. The success or failure of the business is not going to be due to one person being a little late. For reference, I am of the opinion that office hours are useless and employees should simply be expected to perform their duties and meet deadlines regardless of time spent in the office. Forcing military style discipline only dampers x-factors like creativity.

 

[John Robert]

The entitlement mentality is out of control. I teach 'make money online' and cant keep an employee loyal and consistently working without keeping them either working inside an office with me, or breathing down there neck.

I feel im alright at identifying hungry young folk, but damn, people r so unfocused, shiny object driven nowadays its nuts

 

[hellolin]

Get used to it, majority of this generation's workers hates a set working hours, this does not mean they won't put in their hours and do hard work, people do, they just don't like a set hours. Give them flexibility on your terms is a lot easier to manage than for the employees to request them on their behave, make the work environment results oriented, really as a fastlaner all you care is the end result of an employee's work anyways, unless someone is constantly late for an important meeting which hinders your profits, then that's a different story. I have no doubt that by the time my generation gets into power the whole set working hours in a day thing is gonna be long gone.

 

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[hellolin]

Pretty surprised by what I'm reading here. Anyone notice this part "produces brilliant work"? Can't hate on that imo. 10 minutes late is nothing. The success or failure of the business is not going to be due to one person being a little late. For reference, I am of the opinion that office hours are useless and employees should simply be expected to perform their duties and meet deadlines regardless of time spent in the office. Forcing military style discipline only dampers x-factors like creativity.

Exactly, results driven work is pretty common in the IT industry, since programming is a type of creative work. There are plenty of software guys that hacks most of their code during midnight hours, do you make them go to work at that hour, or you let them work their thing and be happy that they crank out good work?

 

[PopEmersen]

To be the devil's advocate, it's called leverage. For instance, take professional sports. Some players are avg players, some are phenomenal. I once heard Bill Parcell and Belicheck talk about Lawrence Taylor. He would fall asleep in meetings, be late, but when they woke him up from his nap in the meeting, he could tell you where all 11 people should be and when they played, he took no plays off. Special players/assets/resources don't get treated the same as the avg. This guys seems to be from the managers own description, special. The end goal is keep your business growing and moving right? If this guys skills are that great, do you really want to be in a bind for 6-7 months behind 10 minutes?

IDK, you guys tell me.

 

[Late Start]

Read a couple of the responses, and...the millennial generation is doomed.

 

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[juan917]

Exactly, results driven work is pretty common in the IT industry, since programming is a type of creative work. There are plenty of software guys that hacks most of their code during midnight hours, do you make them go to work at that hour, or you let them work their thing and be happy that they crank out good work?

I am not a manager but as as an IT employee I come in a little after 10 and leave around 4. Still have an hour commute so it turns out to be 9-5 dedicated to work

 

[nomeus]

We have this IT company Draugiem Group LLC. in Latvia, owners of couple big startups (around $17m turnover, 180 employees - 120 in Latvia and 60 in US).

While their US staff mostly deals with blue collar jobs (printing, order fulfilment) and have to come in on time, their Latvian staff does all the programming and can show up to work until 11.00 AM, but they have to put in 40h work weeks. And it is working out for them very good.

So I think, if there is no meetings or tough deadlines, and employee is doing his job, it does not matter to when he comes to work, as long as he puts in the hours, and can manage his time efficiently.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Re: Regarding the Comments...

Didn't ya'll get the memo? Everyone gets a trophy. Everyone is special. Pretty soon, disciplining an always-late employee will headline Yahoo and be called "employee-shaming". God forbid you show up on time and do your freaking job. At the end of the day, it's just another person looking to get something free, in this case 15 minutes of free payment for zero work. Multiply that by 10 years and they guy will get paid for 3 months of doing nothing.

Pretty surprised by what I'm reading here. Anyone notice this part "produces brilliant work"? Can't hate on that imo. 10 minutes late is nothing. The success or failure of the business is not going to be due to one person being a little late. For reference, I am of the opinion that office hours are useless and employees should simply be expected to perform their duties and meet deadlines regardless of time spent in the office. Forcing military style discipline only dampers x-factors like creativity.

Ahhh, yes excellent point. At what point do you say "This guy is a rockstar and if he wants to come in 15 minutes late, so be it!"

A great example of this is in professional sports. The guy who is [HASHTAG]#54th[/HASHTAG] on the team will get cut if he tries to pull any shit. The #1 guy, say someone like Cam Newton, Tom Brady, or Adrian Peterson? They get a long leash-- simply because they produce.

I for one would probably overlook it if the guy was a rockstar producer. Producers can get away with stuff.

 

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[drifter]

I am not a manager but as as an IT employee I come in a little after 10 and leave around 4. Still have an hour commute so it turns out to be 9-5 dedicated to work

Ok I had to read that one twice. You Start at 10, leave at 4 working a 9-5 job and chalk it up to an hour drive each way?

Since when is an employer responsible for travel to/from work? 9-5 means you're AT work at 9 and leave work AT 5. I wouldn't pay you for YOUR travel time.

Seriously? What mentality to have - back to this entitlement BS.

 

[juan917]

Ok I had to read that one twice. You Start at 10, leave at 4 working a 9-5 job and chalk it up to an hour drive each way?

Since when is an employer responsible for travel to/from work? 9-5 means you're AT work at 9 and leave work AT 5. I wouldn't pay you for YOUR travel time.

Seriously? What mentality to have - back to this entitlement BS.

Employer is not responsible for my travel. However, I still count it as it is time that I am allocating towards work.

 

[hellolin]

Read a couple of the responses, and...the millennial generation is doomed.

My generation is the most indebted, least productive, most dependent generation ever, I wouldn't say we are the most entitled generation since we still got the boomer generation ahead of us. Funny thing is people keep saying my generation is going to doom this country, but what is happening now is the retiring boomers, their retirement picture is looking so bad right now, we'd have to triple our national debt to cover SSN and medicare so that we won't end up with too many old sick people on the streets. Majority of them didn't save any because they assumed the government is going to take care of them, as they voted back when they were my age. Of course the rational here is that the future generation will help pay for older people's entitlement, assume the future generation's productivity increases thus generating more wealth, but it sure doesn't look that way right now with how my generation is doing. Gen X is handling most of the buck right now, paying taxes just to keep retiring boomers and needy millennials afloat. I actually believe that it will be a long time that we will have a government that can cut costs, it's not like they don't want to, but we as a country has became so dependent on it, we have already past that tipping point, matter of fact I think my generation pushed the country past that tipping point and there might never be a way to go back.

 

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[Delmania]

Pretty surprised by what I'm reading here. Anyone notice this part "produces brilliant work"? Can't hate on that imo. 10 minutes late is nothing. The success or failure of the business is not going to be due to one person being a little late. For reference, I am of the opinion that office hours are useless and employees should simply be expected to perform their duties and meet deadlines regardless of time spent in the office. Forcing military style discipline only dampers x-factors like creativity.

How you do small things is how you do everything. If your boss asks you to be in by 9, and you consistently 5 minutes late, it means you're irresponsible and cannot be held accountable.

The guy's destined to be one of those who are technically good, yet continue working for someone else.

Somewhat related, this comment reminded me of this post: http://simpleprogrammer.com/2014/12/29/want-accomplish-goals-become-finisher/

 

[hughjasle]

The Quora poster just poorly worded his post and title. He said he’s not going to fire this guy, his “Rockstar”, he was looking for outside advise on how/if he should or could do anything to change this guys work ethic because the issue really is just 15 min. Not the “I work best late into the night” - it is pure disrespect and laziness on this “rockstars” part. His job is a timed thing - no a project thing. They are the tech support office that is open from this hour till this hour. Doesn’t matter how good he is if he isn’t there for a job like that. That would be like Cam Newton not showing up till after the kick-off.



Also - doesn’t sound like this rockstar is really that much of a rockstar as the OP said he weighed the costs of firing him and being short someone for 10 months. For now he's gonna keep him. But.....



...My guess is if someone else showed up ready to work who was less competent but had a better work ethic, that company would fire the rockstar and take the new hire.



And while I agree that set hours suck, but having tried building companies around open hours - that sucks too. Hard to keep the company working properly as others have stated. Meetings become impossible, the only way you can check up on people and their work or problems is in self directed reporting - which no one does, the few bad apples ruin it for everyone else.

 

[drifter]

Employer is not responsible for my travel. However, I still count it as it is time that I am allocating towards work.

Amazing world you live in where your employer pays you for your travel time.

 

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[Andy Black]

Exactly, results driven work is pretty common in the IT industry, since programming is a type of creative work. There are plenty of software guys that hacks most of their code during midnight hours, do you make them go to work at that hour, or you let them work their thing and be happy that they crank out good work?

I only skimmed the original article.

I didn't think the employee in question was a programmer, or if he was, there appeared to be an element of support or client facing work in his role.

If you're providing onsite support between certain hours then you have to be onsite and available then. That's the agreement.

I get it that it's different for genius programmers who pull all-night hackathons, but it's not acceptable if you're providing cover.

We'd not allow our best fireman or emergency doctor to swan in 10 minutes after his shift starts just because he's good. The whole team is compromised and unable to provide the cover they're expected to.

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

One word... Entitlement...

The demand for developers far exceeds supply. Therefore: Entitlement.

It's not like other jobs where the employer is in a position of power. Here, the employee calls a lot of the shots. Don't like it? Fire them. They get a new job in a week.

It's a matter of economics more than it is a matter of fastlane vs slowlane.