Do What You Love And the Money Will Follow!

[liv42dy]

I've learned a lot from this thread. There is so much wisdom here!

I hope to, one day, be more of a "contributor" to this forum and not just a learner.

 

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[Bobo]

Several thoughts come to mind....

First... Yves continues her drive toward making the sarcasm hall of fame on the first ballot - I hope to give the keynote speech.

Second... I actually think it's important to recognize that on an entrepreneurial forum the one thing you are certain to find is a plethora of people with a long track record of stunning failures amongst their successes. Entrepreneurs fail daily, hell, we eat it up - we like to go out and try crazy shit just because it sounds fun just as often as we do soundly logical, well researched things. Jill and I had just finished a second bottle of wine at a Cafe in Rome when we decided that a finance major and a software engineer with no background in design or manufacturing or retail ought to say screw it and become fashion designers since we were in Italy and drinkin. We had some stunning successes and Wily Coyote-esque disasters on that one but damn - we learned a ton!

Entrepreneurs are born failures. Failing has a pre-requisite, it requires the cajones (or cajonettes I spose) to go out on a limb. Some times the damn thing breaks off, sometimes you get the fruit.

There are two sayings that keep me going as an entrepreneurial wannabe

1. (Paraphrasing) No, I didn't fail 2000 times you a**hole, I found 2000 ways not to make a light bulb - Thomas Edison

2. About 5 years ago I woke up one day and realized that happiness really is a choice, you wake up and decide to be happy or you don't. Over the last 5 years I've had ups and downs, joy and sorrow but day in and day out I am damn near annoyingly happy 90% of the time - Bobo 2009


Corny truism of the day: Failure is an event, not a destination.

Come to think of it... I think maybe I'm happy because I decided I didn't like grownup rules and went back to kindergarten rules, if you don't like the outcome just shout "Do Over!" and tee it up again

 

[yveskleinsky]

Several thoughts come to mind....

First... Yves continues her drive toward making the sarcasm hall of fame on the first ballot - I hope to give the keynote speech.

Second... I actually think it's important to recognize that on an entrepreneurial forum the one thing you are certain to find is a plethora of people with a long track record of stunning failures amongst their successes. Entrepreneurs fail daily, hell, we eat it up - we like to go out and try crazy shit just because it sounds fun just as often as we do soundly logical, well researched things. Entrepreneurs are born failures. Failing has a pre-requisite, it requires the cajones (or cajonettes I spose) to go out on a limb. Some times the damn thing breaks off, sometimes you get the fruit.

Thanks Bobo, I would be honored to have you deliver the keynote speech.

I agree about failure. I think most of us are hard wired for risk. I know that I am. I look back at different chapters in my life and still laugh out loud over the audacity/cajones I've had in the past. I've never been one to subscribe to the rules if the rules didn't make sense. Being this way has caused a lot of pain, but it's also opened a lot of doors of me--well I should say I've kicked a lot of doors open, lol. At the end of the day failure is all part of the process. Beginning entrepreneurs get bitter and jaded when their business plan doesn't work out and things don't go as planned--it's easy to feel lied to or duped. It's harder to take as much accountability as you possibly can for a situation, but once you own your part in something you then have the ability to change both the situation and yourself so it doesn't happen again.

 

[fanocks2003]

With all respect to what has been said, but I have come to the conclusion myself that some parts of what happens are your own fault entirely (you can frame things in nice packages after all...I should know, because I fail at this many times over) and the other half is actually others fault. Some things you can't control no matter how much you try. If you could, then nothing would be impossible and you would have friends all over the world, everyone would buy from you etc. Not possible, we all know it.

So:

-50% your fault because you didn't manage what you actually had the power to manage.
-50% other peoples fault, because of not control whatsoever from your side, no matter how much you actually tried to manage it properly (the uncertainty principle).

 

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[wildambitions]

With all respect to what has been said, but I have come to the conclusion myself that some parts of what happens are your own fault entirely (you can frame things in nice packages after all...I should know, because I fail at this many times over) and the other half is actually others fault. Some things you can't control no matter how much you try. If you could, then nothing would be impossible and you would have friends all over the world, everyone would buy from you etc. Not possible, we all know it.

So:

-50% your fault because you didn't manage what you actually had the power to manage.
-50% other peoples fault, because of not control whatsoever from your side, no matter how much you actually tried to manage it properly (the uncertainty principle).

I cannot express enough how much in disagreement I am with this. (No offense Fanocks).

Although I agree that many things are not your control, HOW you (I) react to them and the choices you (I) make resulting from thing, ARE under your (my) control, keeping you (me) accountable.

Furthermore, anything and everything that happens to me IS my responsibility and mine alone. The influences and circumstances that I am exposed to are also MY "fault". I am there because of choices I made and actions I took that lead me to where I am - w/o anyone else being at "fault".

In your example you say, "no matter how much you actually tried to manage it properly (the uncertainty principle)". If you tried to manage it properly and had a negative result, then perhaps your reaction to whatever it was, was wrong. At least this has been my experience. You made (yet another) mistake... with which you can evaluate, learn from and do differently the next time to manifest a different result, taking responsibility and being accountable for YOU and no one else.

 

[Russ H]

I guess I see both points (fanocks and wildambitions).

Not sure if this makes any sense, but I've actually gone back and forth, swinging from one POV to the other in my life.

When I was a kid, everything was pre-determined for me. My life was kinda programmed. I did NOT go out and play w/the neighborhood kids (parents did not allow it). Spent most of my time studying, playing/fighting w/my brother, and playing by myself.

Not very social, I know. Had to pretty much start from scratch learning social skills when I moved out of the house (when I was 18).

Spent my 20s and part of my 30s believing in karma-- doing good and good coming back to you. Thing was, everyone in my community pretty much believed the same thing (Marin County, CA). So it worked.

Moved to LA, and that all changed. Got screwed over multiple times within months, and did nothing but put good stuff out there. I was pegged as an easy mark by the cons and the industry vets who were very manipulative.

Did I learn from this?

Hell yeah.

But I had to change my entire world view to incorporate what I'd learned.

Instead of "do good and it will come back to you", my new world view was "do good, and much good will come back to you-- BUT SOMETIMES, PEOPLE WILL SH*T ON YOU FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Kind of a sad addition, and it represents a major loss of trust and goodwill, but it's prepared me for bigger and better things.

Thing is, whatever I do, I look back at it and say, "What have I learned from this?"

And the most frustrating thing about my LA experience was that my answer was "How you act both attracts good people and bad people. And as good as you are at judging character, you will not always be right. So prepare for the bad people, and you'll be less surprised. But still go on acting the same (good/honest) way-- but be careful."

Not sure if that makes sense. I can go into more detail if needed.

-Russ H.

 

[fanocks2003]

I cannot express enough how much in disagreement I am with this. (No offense Fanocks).

Although I agree that many things are not your control, HOW you (I) react to them and the choices you (I) make resulting from thing, ARE under your (my) control, keeping you (me) accountable.

Furthermore, anything and everything that happens to me IS my responsibility and mine alone. The influences and circumstances that I am exposed to are also MY "fault". I am there because of choices I made and actions I took that lead me to where I am - w/o anyone else being at "fault".

In your example you say, "no matter how much you actually tried to manage it properly (the uncertainty principle)". If you tried to manage it properly and had a negative result, then perhaps your reaction to whatever it was, was wrong. At least this has been my experience. You made (yet another) mistake... with which you can evaluate, learn from and do differently the next time to manifest a different result, taking responsibility and being accountable for YOU and no one else.

None taken. So if the sun exploded you would blame yourself too? Dumb question, but it clearly speaks for itself.

The same goes with death. We can control the happening of the actual event to some degree, but it will happen no matter how much we actively try to evade it. Some things cannot be controlled.

You can steer free from a lot of stuff, but some stuff you cannot escape from through your own efforts alone (even if your tried very hard).

You can avoid buying a certain stock. You cannot avoid meeting certain people. You can avoid a lot of things and actively improve other things. But some things are not meant to be no matter how hard you believe it.

Some day when you walk down the street and walks by a store window and suddently the whole place blows up and you die. Then, tell me: how could you have possibly have improved that situation without having a hint of an idea that that store would blow up exactly the moment you walked by? You couldn't. You could actively have avoided it, IF you knew there was actually a slight chance of it happening. But as you see, some stuff can be controlled and managed, other things are not possible to manage.

You may think this is just silly examples, but they are possibilities just as anyhting else that might happen without us even having the slightest chance of knowing or being able to respond.

I can give numerous other scenarios that might happen and things we may not even be able to prevent. Because it can't be prevented. You can't prevent things that are not possible to actually diagnos in the first place.

A final example:

Say you are selling an item (whatever item you can think of). How can you prevent a customer from not buying from you? How can you actively have everyone you talk too buy your item. You can't. It is not realistic. But if we follow your quest for "everything is manageable if you just set your mind on it" then you need to force people to purchase from you. You cannot manage if customers buy from you or not. You can create a scenario that increases the probability for it happening (the manageable part), but it will still not be entirely up to you. There will be an uncertain event. A small or big number of people saying "NO thanks". Non-manageable things.

 

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[fanocks2003]

I guess I see both points (fanocks and wildambitions).

Not sure if this makes any sense, but I've actually gone back and forth, swinging from one POV to the other in my life.

When I was a kid, everything was pre-determined for me. My life was kinda programmed. I did NOT go out and play w/the neighborhood kids (parents did not allow it). Spent most of my time studying, playing/fighting w/my brother, and playing by myself.

Not very social, I know. Had to pretty much start from scratch learning social skills when I moved out of the house (when I was 18).

Spent my 20s and part of my 30s believing in karma-- doing good and good coming back to you. Thing was, everyone in my community pretty much believed the same thing (Marin County, CA). So it worked.

Moved to LA, and that all changed. Got screwed over multiple times within months, and did nothing but put good stuff out there. I was pegged as an easy mark by the cons and the industry vets who were very manipulative.

Did I learn from this?

Hell yeah.

But I had to change my entire world view to incorporate what I'd learned.

Instead of "do good and it will come back to you", my new world view was "do good, and much good will come back to you-- BUT SOMETIMES, PEOPLE WILL SH*T ON YOU FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Kind of a sad addition, and it represents a major loss of trust and goodwill, but it's prepared me for bigger and better things.

Thing is, whatever I do, I look back at it and say, "What have I learned from this?"

And the most frustrating thing about my LA experience was that my answer was "How you act both attracts good people and bad people. And as good as you are at judging character, you will not always be right. So prepare for the bad people, and you'll be less surprised. But still go on acting the same (good/honest) way-- but be careful."

Not sure if that makes sense. I can go into more detail if needed.

-Russ H.

The problem of believing in being nice in a world that clearly has a different view on the subject is that you will be very poor in the end. As Bud said in the movie Wallstreet "There is no nobility in being poor". You may certainly feel better, but you will feel better as the broke guy, not as the rich guy.

I started out a 100% idealist with blue eyes and all that. But I have played this game too long now to be seduced by nice words and a handshake. That is not how the other people in the game plays it. In order to win and flourish you need to first learn the ropes, learn the game rules (just as in anything else in life) then you need to become the best existing devil on that game.

As they say "don't blame me, blame the Creator of the game". I didn't make up the nastiness and the scammer rules most businesspeople use, but no matter how much we try to hide from it: It is still out there when we open our eyes again. So stop closing your eyes and live in the reality.

The first step to becoming wealthy is to see the world as it is, not as we want it to look like. The second step is to play the game as a pro (knowing every dirty detail and every dirty trick) and THEN we can use our power to change the world as we see fit.

I know the idea of being noble and I know the idea of people scamming me and people sitting on me and even wanting to picture me as a criminal (just to steal customers away from me). I know all that first hand. See, it does not matter if you are nice guy or a bloody devil, you will be kicked nonthless. Be smart: Be kicked while winning instead. Then you can feel good counting your money at least. I would take a boat load of cash any day. Any day. Money can always be earned and friends can always be transformed into your worst enemy (and your friends loyalty can be bought by your competitors just as any other commodity out there, anytime, anywhere). Money is honest, friends and people are not always honest. Very seldom.

If I had one chance of transforming a company for the better it would be firing all the employees and implementing technical systems for everything. As much as I could. Then the error of bankruptcies would seriously be reduced many times over.

 

[wildambitions]

None taken. So if the sun exploded you would blame yourself too? Dumb question, but it clearly speaks for itself.

No, but this is not a "fault" issue, you have changed your argument. Am I accountable for being there, yes, because I have been accountable to myself for still being alive (with what I do have control of) at which time the sun explodes. I don't see the sense in placing any blame anywhere.

The same goes with death. We can control the happening of the actual event to some degree, but it will happen no matter how much we actively try to evade it. Some things cannot be controlled.

Again, not a "fault" issue. My disagreement was not about what we have control of or don't have control of. My point is that no one else can be accountable for your (or mine) circumstances. Yes, there are some things we have less control of within ourselves but we are still nonetheless accountable and completely at "fault" for where we are, who we are and where we go and become.

You can steer free from a lot of stuff, but some stuff you cannot escape from through your own efforts alone (even if your tried very hard).

I would not want to escape anything that is presented to me. What would be left to learn? Either way, whatever is there in front of me, is there for me to deal with because it is a direct result of choices I made up until this point that has these particular circumstances in front of me now.

You cannot avoid meeting certain people. You can avoid a lot of things and actively improve other things. But some things are not meant to be no matter how hard you believe it.

A chance meeting or encounter of anyone... I would still own up to the fact that because of the circumstances that led me to make the choices I made, I am here, now, to deal with these people. As far as things that are not meant to be... whatever is in front of you is what was actually meant to be. You are where you are because of you. I am where I am because of me, I accept that and life is easy.

Some day when you walk down the street and walks by a store window and suddently the whole place blows up and you die. Then, tell me: how could you have possibly have improved that situation without having a hint of an idea that that store would blow up exactly the moment you walked by? You couldn't. You could actively have avoided it, IF you knew there was actually a slight chance of it happening. But as you see, some stuff can be controlled and managed, other things are not possible to manage.

My death in the above situation would not change the fact that I was there at that moment because of me and choices I made. Now sure, the cause of my death was certainly a result of someone else's actions, but ultimately I was there... for whatever reason and I can be accountable for that. I do not need to know things to be accountable for myself, I do not need to control anything but my own thoughts and action.

You may think this is just silly examples, but they are possibilities just as anyhting else that might happen without us even having the slightest chance of knowing or being able to respond.

I can give numerous other scenarios that might happen and things we may not even be able to prevent. Because it can't be prevented. You can't prevent things that are not possible to actually diagnos in the first place.

We are not expected to know how to respond to anything and everything that comes along, but I do believe we are "at fault" for being where ever we are, 100%. 100% accountable to and for ourselves.

Other's choices and actions contribute to the complexity of our own choices and actions, this is not in dispute. Don't misunderstand the argument, and perhaps we are saying much of the same thing. It IS a crazy intermingled complexity of everyone's circumstances and choices that make up everything that happens.

How can you prevent a customer from not buying from you? How can you actively have everyone you talk too buy your item. You can't. It is not realistic. But if we follow your quest for "everything is manageable if you just set your mind on it" then you need to force people to purchase from you. You cannot manage if customers buy from you or not. You can create a scenario that increases the probability for it happening (the manageable part), but it will still not be entirely up to you. There will be an uncertain event. A small or big number of people saying "NO thanks". Non-manageable things.

I do not have control of any customer's buying choices (nor would I want to), I don't expect everyone I talk to to buy my item - I expect them to make their own accountable decisions. I don't think I said "everything was manageable if you set you mind to it."

My point is accept responsibility and be accountable to and for yourself always. Placing blame for anything or on anyone else might make you feel good (and even make others feel sorry for you) but only your choices and actions, based on the circumstances you have in front of you right now, can and will move you from where you are to wherever else you may want to be.

 

[365]

Furthermore, anything and everything that happens to me IS my responsibility and mine alone.

I agree that you are in control of how you deal with the stuff that happens.

But I disagree with "I am responsible for everything that happens to me". Maybe "I am responsible for the results of the actions I take" is true to a degree, but "everything that happens to me"? I mean, the literal implication would be that you are "responsible" for being raped, murdered, fired etc. Even if you just were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe you see a different meaning in "responsible" but sometimes others are clearly responsible for what happens and you have absolutely no control about what happens (except maybe for what you are thinking at that point).

A rational decision I make is based on my expectations of the future.
Unfortunately, I have limited knowledge of the world. I cannot make perfect decisions and I cannot predict the future. In my opinion, I therefore have limited responsibility for my future. The degree of responsibility obviously varies a lot. I might be fully responsible for not getting up tomorrow morning but I might not be responsible for being hit by a drunk driver..


**edit
Yeah, I guess I should've hit "refresh" earlier.. ;-)

 

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[wildambitions]

The problem of believing in being nice in a world that clearly has a different view on the subject is that you will be very poor in the end. As Bud said in the movie Wallstreet "There is no nobility in being poor". You may certainly feel better, but you will feel better as the broke guy, not as the rich guy.

I started out a 100% idealist with blue eyes and all that. But I have played this game too long now to be seduced by nice words and a handshake. That is not how the other people in the game plays it. In order to win and flourish you need to first learn the ropes, learn the game rules (just as in anything else in life) then you need to become the best existing devil on that game.

As they say "don't blame me, blame the Creator of the game". I didn't make up the nastiness and the scammer rules most businesspeople use, but no matter how much we try to hide from it: It is still out there when we open our eyes again. So stop closing your eyes and live in the reality.

The first step to becoming wealthy is to see the world as it is, not as we want it to look like. The second step is to play the game as a pro (knowing every dirty detail and every dirty trick) and THEN we can use our power to change the world as we see fit.

I know the idea of being noble and I know the idea of people scamming me and people sitting on me and even wanting to picture me as a criminal (just to steal customers away from me). I know all that first hand. See, it does not matter if you are nice guy or a bloody devil, you will be kicked nonthless. Be smart: Be kicked while winning instead. Then you can feel good counting your money at least. I would take a boat load of cash any day. Any day. Money can always be earned and friends can always be transformed into your worst enemy (and your friends loyalty can be bought by your competitors just as any other commodity out there, anytime, anywhere). Money is honest, friends and people are not always honest. Very seldom.

If I had one chance of transforming a company for the better it would be firing all the employees and implementing technical systems for everything. As much as I could. Then the error of bankruptcies would seriously be reduced many times over.

WOW. This pretty much says it all. I will humbly bow out of this conversation and no longer engage in this conversation. It is clear that at best I will have to agree to disagree. Your sig line sums it up for me. I do not want to and will not be doing any business with you or anyone who displays this type business practice.

I truly wish you the best of "luck" in your projects and DO hope that you find success.

 

[365]

My point is accept responsibility and be accountable to and for yourself always. Placing blame for anything or on anyone else might make you feel good (and even make others feel sorry for you) but only your choices and actions, based on the circumstances you have in front of you right now, can and will move you from where you are to wherever else you may want to be.

Well but these are two different things.

Guy hits me with his car, I lose my legs. It clearly is his fault and his responsibility. Now it's true: at some point I have to move on and accept it. But I dont see how telling yourself "I am responsible for having my legs cut off in a random accident" is going to make you feel any better or let you learn anything.
How can you feel responsible for something that you clearly had no influence on? Where is the connection to feeling responsible to what will happen to your future (for which you are responsible to a degree).

 

[wildambitions]

I agree that you are in control of how you deal with the stuff that happens.

But I disagree with "I am responsible for everything that happens to me". Maybe "I am responsible for the results of the actions I take" is true to a degree, but "everything that happens to me"? I mean, the literal implication would be that you are "responsible" for being raped, murdered, fired etc. Even if you just were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe you see a different meaning in "responsible" but sometimes others are clearly responsible for what happens and you have absolutely no control about what happens (except maybe for what you are thinking at that point).

A rational decision I make is based on my expectations of the future.
Unfortunately, I have limited knowledge of the world. I cannot make perfect decisions and I cannot predict the future. In my opinion, I therefore have limited responsibility for my future. The degree of responsibility obviously varies a lot. I might be fully responsible for not getting up tomorrow morning but I might not be responsible for being hit by a drunk driver..


**edit
Yeah, I guess I should've hit "refresh" earlier.. ;-)

I think we are saying the same thing. I am not always the best at putting my words into context.

In your scenario I would "own up to" being there. I had control of myself for where I was and the circumstances I was in... that is what I would be responsible for and accept it (although I would not like it much, I am sure!). Then after the things I could not control (others actions) I would re-group (acceptance of my circumstances, perhaps) and go from where I was.

 

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[biophase]

As they say "don't blame me, blame the Creator of the game". I didn't make up the nastiness and the scammer rules most businesspeople use, but no matter how much we try to hide from it: It is still out there when we open our eyes again. So stop closing your eyes and live in the reality.

The first step to becoming wealthy is to see the world as it is, not as we want it to look like. The second step is to play the game as a pro (knowing every dirty detail and every dirty trick) and THEN we can use our power to change the world as we see fit.

This is where you have to make a decision. You can decide whether going that direction is worth the money or not. Maybe people do not want to become wealthy at the expense of becoming nasty, using dirty tricks. Some people play the game and love it. Some do it for the money only. Some don't want to do it, but believe they must to survive. Me, I don't care about the money that much to do anything I don't feel is right.

At the very end, it's up to you. Do you play the game, not like what you are doing and then tell yourself you are doing it only because everyone else does it? You just have to be true to yourself when you do or don't decide to go down that path.

 

[Russ H]

If I had one chance of transforming a company for the better it would be firing all the employees and implementing technical systems for everything. As much as I could. Then the error of bankruptcies would seriously be reduced many times over.

Hmm . . . but you'd still have problems with the guys that programmed the machines and did the maintenance!

(and you'd also still have problems with your sales force, and admin/BOD). But you know that. I get your point. It's part of the reason the auto industry has become so automated (at least parts of it).

-Russ H.

 

[wildambitions]

Well but these are two different things.

Guy hits me with his car, I lose my legs. It clearly is his fault and his responsibility. Now it's true: at some point I have to move on and accept it. But I dont see how telling yourself "I am responsible for having my legs cut off in a random accident" is going to make you feel any better or let you learn anything.
How can you feel responsible for something that you clearly had no influence on? Where is the connection to feeling responsible to what will happen to your future (for which you are responsible to a degree).

I am not saying to tell yourself you are responsible for your legs being cut off in a random accident. Nor is it going to make you feel any better or get you to learn anything. I do not feel responsible for my legs being cut off.

I am saying that I cannot be responsible for their actions, but there is a degree of my own accountability for even being there.

Let me express this in an opposite extreme: You say it is clearly his "fault" and "responsibility". REALLY? If you (or I... who ever's legs are getting cut off) had not been there he wouldn't have hit you and you'd still have your legs. This is fact.

So yes, I feel there is some personal ACCOUNTABILITY. But just because I am there, not for the result. THEN... I become responsible for whatever thoughts and actions that I choose. I am NOT responsible for the actions of other guy.

 

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[Russ H]

Wow, replied to fanocks post and *then* saw the follow-ups!

Wildambitions, I honestly think you and fanocks have more in common than you think (and I mean no disrespect to either of you in saying that).

Don't get hung up on semantics (like the word "fault"). Fanocks is, in many ways, saying "take responsibility for your actions".

And so are you.

I think Fanocks point about the sun blowing up is a good one. What could you possibly do to stop it? Same w/the bomb that blows up (or gas leak that goes).

You get in your car. It gets mashed by an out of control truck. You die.

Sure, you could have changed the outcome by not getting in your car.

We take these life-death risks every day, sometimes knowingly. Sometimes not.

I also see a difference between you when fanocks looks at all the nastiness and dirty double dealing in the world, and says, "Bring it on!"

Your end is to feel good, and be in harmony w/your spirit (if I'm wrong, please tell me).

Fanocks' end is to gain wealth-- because he has different needs/motivations. He examines the dirty deals, and thoughtfully considers whether or not he wants to play at that level (again, fanocks, tell me if I've misread your points re this).

I have no doubt that Donald Trump has examined and made the same decisions-- choosing to play at whatever level of "dirty deals" he feels are necessary to get the job done.

I'm not saying either one of you is right.

I'm just trying to outline the actual differences.

Because I see many more similarities here, than differences.

Even though it may not feel that way to either of you.

-Russ H.

 

[wildambitions]

Wow, replied to fanocks post and *then* saw the follow-ups!

Wildambitions, I honestly think you and fanocks have more in common than you think (and I mean no disrespect to either of you in saying that).

I acknowledged the similarities all along. No dispute there. And no disrespect was intended to anyone.

I was not trying to "dis" Fanocks business views or practices as much as expressing that MINE are not similar and I do not and will not choose to approach business in that way. I meant what I said when I said, I hope he finds success. That was NOT sarcasm.

Your end is to feel good, and be in harmony w/your spirit (if I'm wrong, please tell me).

Fanocks' end is to gain wealth-- because he has different needs/motivations. He examines the dirty deals, and thoughtfully considers whether or not he wants to play at that level (again, fanocks, tell me if I've misread your points re this).

ROFLOL. Boy do I have you fooled! No, I am just kidding. I don't know if I would describe it as harmony with my spirit, but it is true that I have a deep rooted faith. And I also strive to gain wealth, although my wealth is not limited to only a monetary measure. (And I am NOT saying that Fanocks is [limited]... don't start that game, cuz I am not playing.)

I'm not saying either one of you is right.

It was not an issue of right or wrong, just a difference of opinion. Not opposed to that, ever. Just did not warrant further discussion as I can agree, to disagree.

Perhaps I should stop trying to write as most all that I write is taken out of context (poor writing skills perhaps?). Fanocks, I apologize if my post came across offensive, that was not the intent at all. One thing I do know... everyone's expressions (morals, values, opinions, call it what you want) is as important to them as mine are to me. I respect that. I can only hope others can repect mine as well.

 

[fanocks2003]

I also see a difference between you when fanocks looks at all the nastiness and dirty double dealing in the world, and says, "Bring it on!"

Your end is to feel good, and be in harmony w/your spirit (if I'm wrong, please tell me).

Fanocks' end is to gain wealth-- because he has different needs/motivations. He examines the dirty deals, and thoughtfully considers whether or not he wants to play at that level (again, fanocks, tell me if I've misread your points re this).

I have no doubt that Donald Trump has examined and made the same decisions-- choosing to play at whatever level of "dirty deals" he feels are necessary to get the job done.

I agree with what you say Russ. I mean, you can go a long way playing it nice, but don't for a minute think it will always be possible to play that innocent game if you reach the higher levels of the wealthy world (it can be dangerous thinking like that. You do yourself a grave disservice).

I wish it would be rosy smell all the way, but I mean, I am starting to reach higher levels here. I am dealing with CEO's of mid sized companies listed on the stock exchange right now. Believe me, they do not play nice. They are the trickiest guys I have ever met (great mentors, but they have sharp knives). They play to win, and any means necessary to get there, they take. And they cover their asses very good. That's part of their game. And because I am a CEO too (for a private company, but although) I have learnt the ropes because I have too.

Do I like to play the game? Not particularly. Some days, yes. Some other days, no. But that is my price to pay to become a dollar billionaire (my aim is to be on the forbes 400 list some day before I am 40 years old). And I am prepared to make the excercise. And I will win. Some way or another. Legally.

 

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[Russ H]

"fault" or "personal responsibility"

"50%" . . . or "95%" . . .

(For some reason, this reminds me of the famous Danny Ozark quote: "Half this game is 90% mental"*)

Er, not to be the referee here, but perhaps we could agree that if we take dead nuts semantic accuracy out of the equation (or at least relax the verbatim quote rules a bit, and read some leniency into the words), that we're really kinda on the same page.

We may not be on the same *parts* of that page, mind you.

But I think we may be splitting heirs a bit too much. (misspelling intended)

-Russ H.

*Some attribute the quote to Yogi Berra. But in the interest of making you all the life of the party, Yogi Berra's quote was: "Baseball is 90 percent mental. The other half is physical."

 

[Fermovian]

I am dealing with CEO's of mid sized companies listed on the stock exchange right now. Believe me, they do not play nice. They are the trickiest guys I have ever met (great mentors, but they have sharp knives). They play to win, and any means necessary to get there, they take. And they cover their asses very good. That's part of their game. And because I am a CEO too (for a private company, but although) I have learnt the ropes because I have too.

Fannocks, could you give some examples, I am interested in how the business world really works, and would like to hear from someone who really deals with these people.

 

[Russ H]

. . . could you give some examples, I am interested in how the business world really works, and would like to hear from someone who really deals with these people.

Happy to answer your q's as I've dealt w/upper level CEOs, multi-millionaires, and captains of industry, for decades.

What do you want to know?

-Russ H.

BTW, I see you're from "cc". Where is that?

 

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[Pinnacle]

"Do What You Love And the Money Will Follow!"


crap, crap, crap, mega-crap!

 

[Fermovian]

Happy to answer your q's as I've dealt w/upper level CEOs, multi-millionaires, and captains of industry, for decades.

What do you want to know?

-Russ H.

BTW, I see you're from "cc". Where is that?

Sorry about that, I was in a rush when I signed up, I fixed it...
Anyway I was wondering what it is they do exactly. I'm not so devious myself so I would not know what to look for. I imagine there are legal loopholes in contract law for example, or bait and switch.

I wonder if they only do it to small players or if they try to cheat other big players. It would seem it would be a bad idea to cheat someone you depend on long term. Do these people achieve long term success by these methods?

I'm not looking for any ideas:smxB:, just looking for potential pitfalls.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Russ H]

They're not cheating.

They're playing by the rules of business.

It's just that they never teach you these rules in business school-- or in books.

First rule is, any contract is not worth the paper it's printed on. You need the parties/people to actually *agree* on what's happening-- or the attys can rejigger things. It's not about "sneaking" something in the contract, or hoodwinking someone.

This is why honesty/integrity is valued-- if you look someone square in the eye an *tell* them what you want to do, and present it in such a way that benefits them-- they appreciate this.

This does not mean you show them all your cards.

It just means that you don't lie, or cheat, or tell them one thing and do another.

You do what you say.

HOWEVER . . .

You let them know that you may change your mind, or do things differently. So you have not lied to them if you do something differently.

And you get *really, really* good at "speaking their language"-- telling them things in their words, where they "hear" one thing-- but you have not said this.

Example:

Them: "We want a billion dollars"

You (nodding): "I'm certain we can work something out."

Did you tell them you'd give them a billion $$$??

Nope.

But you told them what they wanted to hear.

**************

Other things:

Lots of contingency and back up plans-- and LOTS of partnerships and alliances to allow the different plans to proceed.

These side deals are set up by scores of people-- attys, accts, business consultants-- staggering amounts of work.

And many are never used.

Why go to all that trouble?

To win.

To get what you want.

-Russ H.

 

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[fanocks2003]

Sorry about that, I was in a rush when I signed up, I fixed it...
Anyway I was wondering what it is they do exactly. I'm not so devious myself so I would not know what to look for. I imagine there are legal loopholes in contract law for example, or bait and switch.

I wonder if they only do it to small players or if they try to cheat other big players. It would seem it would be a bad idea to cheat someone you depend on long term. Do these people achieve long term success by these methods?

I'm not looking for any ideas:smxB:, just looking for potential pitfalls.

Thanks for your help!

As Russ mentioned: Most of the CEO's play by the rules. That is the only way to win long-term and still have people want to do business with you.

But this is the thing: You can read an agreement so many ways and still be honest and legal. That is why you need legal help with negotiating agreements because there are so many ways you can slip out of a deal without doing anything illegal or anything unethical. You just follow what the written paper says you can and cannot do.

I have met CEO's who signed an agreement of mine, but then just 2 weeks later send an email and says that their company will withdraw from the partnership because of clause X or Y. And legally they could remove themselfs from any obligation to my company because their was a clear loophole from the get go. There wasn't anything unethical or illegal in doing so from his side. Nothing at all. The agreement gave him the opportunity to do so. And believe me, sharp CEO's will use those weak clauses to their benefit if they see a gain in it. And they very often do.

That is one way the business world works. There are so many other things happening in business that many people don't want to aknowledge. Stuff like the really criminal elements who do not at all play by the rules. People who will actually do illegal things to win. Such people exists and in the long term I am certain you will meet at least one such human being.

It's better to be well prepared that's all. Self-preservation.

 

[LaughedAt]

I was reading [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Good-Great-Companies-Leap-Others/dp/0066620996/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244882093&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap... and Others Don't: Jim Collins: Books[/ame]
and I found a section about passion and how it made companies go from good to great, and there's a quote I thought will do good for this thread:
"The good-to-great companies did not say, "Okay folks, let's get passionate about what we do". Sensibly, they went the other way entirely: We should only do those things that we can get passionate about.
This doesn't mean, however, that you have to be passionate about the mechanics of the business per se (although you might be). The passion circle can be focused equally on what the company stands for. For example, the Fannie Mae people were not passionate about the mechanical process of packaging mortgages into market securities. But they were terrifically motivated by the whole idea of helping people of all classes, backgrounds and races realize the American dream of owning their home.
As another executive summed up, "I see us as a key mechanism for strengthening the whole social fabric of America. Whenever I drive through difficult neighborhoods that are coming back because more families own their homes, I return to work reenergized".

So the way Jim Collins sees it, is that you have to be passionate about what you & your company do for the industry, and I have to agree with him.
You can be passionate about the technical side of running a business and that can be a big plus, however it's not required to achieve success.
As I recall, I remember MJ saying he was motivated by his company helping other businesses achieve greater success, and that is passion, I'm sure money entrepreneurs are not passionate about the industry they're in, I don't think Wayne Huizenga (founder of Waste Management, Inc.) was passionate about waste, however he built a truly successful company because he was passionate about his company's contributions to society and the business world, he was providing jobs, making the world a cleaner place & getting very rich in the process, how cool is that!
So in order to be successful, have passion, be passionate about being in business and be passionate about what your company does and the journey to success can be a lot more enjoyable.

 

[Russ H]

LaughedAt-

When we signed on to work w/a new acctng firm, they required us to read "Good to Great" and discuss it w/them.

It's one of the hardest books I've had to read in the past 10 years (RK's Cashflow Quadrant was the other one).

Why hard to read?

Because as you read the book, you need to compare your own closely-held beliefs and practices to what is being said, every step of the way. Makes for slow going if you are not doing what the author(s) are talking about.

But it also makes for some great, rock-your-world paradigm changing stuff.

I highly recommend it, if you own an existing business and want to make it better (the accts also made us read Gerbers's updated E-Myth book).

-Russ H.

 

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[SaraK]

Thanks for the great article MJ, and for all the wonderful posts from everyone else. I have been struggling with this question recently as I try to decide what fastlane vehicle to focus on. I have heard the "do what you love" advice as well as the "do what makes money now and you can do what you love when you're financially free" advice and wasn't sure what to believe.

It really helps that the article makes the distinction of: can you make money doing what you love? There are some people who do, and are very happy, but not everyone can. Closely related to that is the question: If I did what I love for money, would that take the fun/meaning out of it? So those are things I need to really think about and figure out.

Even if one can't make a living doing what one loves, I think there should still be the opportunity to learn something interesting and work towards a higher purpose in one's fastlane plan. Every job has some downsides, but one should try to keep the downsides to a minimum and increase the enjoyment one gets from one's work.

Right now what I'm struggling with is, do I make my "dream" business my fastlane strategy, or do I wait and do it after I'm financially free? I'd appreciate feedback from the insightful gang here. On the one hand, my dream biz will probably take years to bring to full scale so I'd like to get started sooner than later, especially because of all the good it could do. On the other hand, I don't want money (i.e., needing it to be highly profitable) to get in the way of doing what is best for the cause.

 

[SaraK]

LaughedAt-

When we signed on to work w/a new acctng firm, they required us to read "Good to Great" and discuss it w/them.

It's one of the hardest books I've had to read in the past 10 years (RK's Cashflow Quadrant was the other one).

Why hard to read?

Because as you read the book, you need to compare your own closely-held beliefs and practices to what is being said, every step of the way. Makes for slow going if you are not doing what the author(s) are talking about.

But it also makes for some great, rock-your-world paradigm changing stuff.

I highly recommend it, if you own an existing business and want to make it better (the accts also made us read Gerbers's updated E-Myth book).

-Russ H.

I love both those books!:eusa_clap: They really make you think about how you plan out your business on a large scale so that it frees you instead of traps you.