Discussion on the value of college degrees, even in business.

[DeletedUser2]

everyone I know seems to think that people will not trust your business or take you seriously if you don't have a degree in modern society.

biggest pile of bullshit.

2 attorneys were arguing back and forth, one went to Harvard one went to Duke, both were bragging about their school. this went on for 10 min.
I Finally said shut up, you both work for me, and your wasting my time and money.

I never got a college degree.

Z

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

towards having a backup plan

How's the "backup plan" working for a lot of college graduates? Having a degree being a "backup plan" is a huge myth, and a costly one at that. Just ask the thousands of college grads who are bartending, waiting tables, and pouring coffee. How's that backup plan working for ya? Instead of having a backup, their backed up to a mountain of debt. Not the "back" they thought they were getting, wouldncha say?

 

[Nadia]

Alright. Let's set this little myth straight.

I am probably some uneducated loser too, considering I don't have a University Degree and didn't get to wear the coveted cape and gown. I guess no one will give me business because they realised that I am a uni drop out and that I couldn't sit still in any of my lectures. I am probably not able to string a sentence and a half, together because I am not a graduate and don't have "universal education".

Hmm.

So I wonder how I opened businesses, wrote books and have a strong presence with my clients that buy my products and invest in my services repeatedly every single month, because I don't have a degree.

Let's reveal University for the sub-prime that it is. It is a breeding ground for stupid people who have probably the first taste of running around like a 4 legged animal humping everything they find whilst intoxicated, salivating at the fact that a stupid and useless piece of paper at the end of 3 annums is going to provide them with some magic ticket to lots of money. If kids were told that THAT'S how they were going to get the ripped the f*** out of, financially--there would be a lot less idiots running around in the world.

Alas, the system needs to indenture it's citizens to debt and as Noam Chomsky famously said "debt enslaves so we are unable to focus on anything else". I have been in Business debt before when my spa closed. I know the exact feeling. Not to mention the student loan hell my stupid, young and naive mind bought into as an 18 year old.

Bottom line : No one gives a flying f*** about your degree. And if they do, that's why they are broke.

Just my two cents here.

 

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[Runum]

I have seen and experienced several sides of this argument.

I worked in oil and defense equipment production factories for 22 years. I was in labor on the shop floors. I operated and programmed CNC's from the early days of when they ran directly of off tapes to fairly modern 5 axis machining centers. I really enjoyed creating something from a chunk of metal. I also enjoyed creating the programs that could make the parts.

I recognized that one 5 axis CNC could put 10 guys out of work immediately AND that the machine could be moved to another country overnight. I watched full shops operating 3 shifts 6 days a week go through layoff after layoff until the shop closed. I watched many very TALENTED, grown men cry. I have seen the security guards escort men out as if they are criminals.

I only got layed off once in 22 years and that factory closed. I was always learning and making myself valuable/ indispensable. All of that was up to me. My coworkers spent their time bitching and moaning about labor problems and throwing up roadblocks to progress.

I always wanted to be an engineer. I like designing. However, many factories use engineers as middle management. I did not want to manage people, I wanted to create. I don't think I would have been a good manager, AKA cog in the management machine.

I was also getting tired of the boom/bust cycle and decided on a different direction. I wanted to be a shop teacher and like training people and I have a background in this shop stuff.

Problem, many schools don't have shop anymore. I became a science teacher instead and I really like it. Been doing it for 12 years now.

Not everyone is college material and should not be pushed that way, agreed. However, many not college students mistakenly believe they will learn a skill or trade and be set for life. They want an employer to take care of them. That is a terrible belief.

The college bound students buy into the "get good grades get a good job" mantra. Ultimately, most of them also want an employer to take care of them.

I see fear and the majority on both sides want someone to protect them. I don't think massive student debt for college is the answer but there are many different alternatives to that choice. It IS a choice.

College or not, we need to teach students to learn for themselves, solve problems, and become valuable contributors in whatever direction they choose.

We also need to teach that no one is on this Earth to take care of you, however, that would scare the masses and parents don't want their children scared.

College is a good choice for the right reasons and the right circumstances. No college is also an equally acceptable choice as well.

Either way, people need to become their own agents and responsible for their own choices. Quit the blame game.

 

[Nadia]

I have another question for you that I as well as many others would like to know. I'd really appreciate a reply. Is being an entrepreneur really as complex and challenging as it appears? I just read the gold threads and there's all these employees, taxes, building purchases, and government stuff and whatnot. Can a simple google session or even a class prepare us for this? Can simple businesses without all this stuff still make it big? Thanks!

YES. An Entrepreneur, people think is a life of freedom. Ha.

Freedom from mundane drudgery, yes. Only after you have paid the following prices. Broke, Hungry, Frustrated, Desperate and Beyond Anguish. Are you ready for all this Nicole ? This is just the mindset training. This is enough to scare the weak and timid out of our world. Wealth never opens doors to those who aren't prepared to pay it's price.

Let's break it down.

Employees -- Bunch of loser, whiny cry babies that you have to feed every single month through a paycheck, always whinging about something because an employer is their surrogate parent. Employees yes, help you grow but you need to run a tight ship to have it all in order.

Taxes -- Useless money we are forced to pay to the govt to avoid prison. Thankfully, as a rich person, the law is on YOUR side. Which means you pay tax AFTER you spend. Not before.

Building purchases -- You are probably referring to taking a premises or a lease. Read T&C's VERY well and carefully. Never lock yourself into something you aren't sure of.

Govt Stuff -- Read Taxes. Not tough to understand at all.

The idea is to first prepare your mind to run its course. The above stuff is useless without Mindset Mastery. As you learn, you expand.

As you expand, so does your business !

 

[MJ DeMarco]

HOWEVER, everyone I know seems to think that people will not trust your business or take you seriously if you don't have a degree in modern society.

That's funny.

"Hmmm delicious, this is got to be the best steak I've ever ate. Hope the chef has a college degree..."

SAID. NO. ONE. EVER.

"Wow this product works fabulously. Hope the guy that invented it has a college degree..."

SAID. NO. ONE. EVER.

"Finally got my gizmodo from Amazon! Woo hoo! I just hope the seller had a college degree..."

SAID. NO. ONE. EVER.

"Wow you just cured my cancer with that home remedy! I just hope you have a college degree..."

SAID. NO. ONE. EVER.

"That's the most inspiring piece of art I've ever experienced. I just hope you have a college degree."

SAID. NO. ONE. EVER.

College degrees.

Another thorn amongst a long list of excuses people use to justify inaction.

 

[AllenCrawley]

HOWEVER, everyone I know seems to think that people will not trust your business or take you seriously if you don't have a degree in modern society.

Total BS.

You get to the point of needing a CEO or other C-suite employee's then yes you'll want them to have the degrees. But you as the business owner/founder? Not so much.

 

[LibertyForMe]

She says people these days won't take me seriously or trust me unless I have that ever important degree.

So let me paint you a picture.

In 6 months from now you are calling businesses. You are offering them a product that is better and easier to use than what they currently are using. This product also saves them money in the long run. You are halfway through your pitch to the owner of one company, and he is really excited about using it. You just agreed to send him a sample unit, so he can test it out and see if it would meet his needs.

You ask for his shipping address, but then he interrupts you; "Hey, I forgot to ask... do you have a college degree? I only work with business owners who have a college degree."

THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

If you are offering something to someone that can save them money, reduce their pain, and solve a serious problem they have - they don't give a crap who you are. You could be homeless for all they care, as long as they get what they want.

Just think about that for a while.

Also, it will take you a while (probably months) to get over this belief. It has been drilled into you since you were small.

I do have my college degree. I've been calling businesses for weeks, and NOT A SINGLE ONE has asked about my educational background.

Hope this helps.

 

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[samuraijack]

It's really as simple as this...if you're already working or above the age of 20, there's really no reason for you to go to college. You want to learn skills? Everything can be learned online or through books. You want to get a job? There's work everywhere seriously, go on craigslist and there are thousands of job postings. The job pays shitty? Who cares, at this point money is for necessities like food and rent, and to fund some fastlane activities, that's it.

I failed at college the first time around, and then I did a bit better. Then I tried again, getting A's in all my classes. What a load of shit. Who are those A's for? They won't make me a better businessman or give me the life I want.

 

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[Trivium iz rC]

Here's a little clip from Dragons Den Canada (Equivalent To US Shark Tank)

None of these guys (Robert Herjavec, Kevin O'leary, Jim Treliving) have a business degree's. Yet they all have net worth's over 100m.

Associate Degree's, Bachelors Degree's, Master's Degree's & PhD's are commodities today. Look at everyone with a "Master's" that are serving tables, coffee ect like MJ said.

Check this clip out when a PhD Professor makes a fool out of himself (Wether it was just for TV or for real).

 

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[Nadia]

Oh and, if it comes down to uneducated losers, hmmm--I wonder why one of my most successful friends, who is a high school drop out, has companies today worth $3B and is personally worth $450M ?

You do the maths on that one.

 

[splok]

She says people these days won't take me seriously or trust me unless I have that ever important degree.

People who want to hire people with degrees won't take you seriously without a degree. So it's simple, if you want someone who wants to hire people with degrees to take you seriously, then you need a degree.

I can't just pick up and leave

Of course you can. You're choosing not to. That's a perfectly fine and valid choice, but so is whatever other choice you could make. Accepting that it's YOUR decision is the first step to creating the life you want, whatever it may be.

she says times are different now...

she doesn't seem to agree...

she sees, firsthand...

She says people these days...

she still thinks I can't be those people

She sees all the failures

she immediately shuts it down

she has way more life experience

Sorry if this quoting seems a bit blunt, but I'm trying to make a pattern obvious, in case it wasn't already.

Asking permission has never been a good way to get anything interesting done. There are always a infinite number of great reasons NOT to diverge from the status quo.

In my experience, people are FAR more likely to go along with something if you tell them what you've already decided. (and if you're not confident enough in your decision to do that, then they're probably right...)

 

[mememan]

College is a scam, end of story. I not only got a free-ride to undergraduate and graduate school, but got PAID to go to school as well, and I would still say it was an awful deal.

The college industry is like the Titanic sinking, but rather than warning everyone, they want to keep the orchestra playing and the dining rooms open.

I've seen the most disgusting levels of dishonesty and laziness from professors and administrators making $250k-$300k. I really hope they recognize, in their private moments, that they are scam artists. They wouldn't be making even 25% of their salary in the "real world," yet still act like they are underpaid and would be making $1M+ in the private sector. Sorry bub, you can't sit bullshitting all day with your cronies and hide from work unless you have a good network to take advantage of nepotism.

It doesn't matter what the field either. Professors with PhD students underneath them are especially nefarious. Even in something as seemingly complex as vector borne pathology, they have to know that the academics they are creating will struggle to replicate even half of success and levels of compensation that they have enjoyed.

 

[DeletedUser2]

which time?

at that time I was the CEO of a public company, that I took public, after starting it in my garage...
I ran it for 5 yrs.
we had 6 attys on staff.

so ya, I have proof you don't need a college education to get anywhere.

Z

 

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[DeletedUser2]

PS. you may want to go read some of my posts.... might find some good info there.

or..
maybe not...

Z

 

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[AllenCrawley]

You've read the book. Now, spend some time reading the success stories posted on this forum. One thing you'll soon realize is no one ever credits their college degree to their success. In fact, most never went to college in the first place. Start with the Gold Threads.

 

[LibertyForMe]

Can a simple google session or even a class prepare us for this? Can simple businesses without all this stuff still make it big?

I think @Darius just said something about this recently. He was saying how instead of researching about a problem for half the day and then taking action the other half of the day, he only researches enough to take the first step and then he takes that step.

As your business needs grow, so will you and your capacity to handle problems. Don't worry about running a billion dollar company, worry about running a 3k a month company and grow from there.

 

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[The-J]

OP: your issue has more to do with people's perceptions than the actual value of a college degree.

Young people with diplomas and college degrees have lower rates of unemployment than their peers (source). But that's jobs. I've bought lots of things and I have no idea where the CEOs of those companies went to school, nor do I care. Nor does anyone else (save a very small minority, members of which I've never met).

College can be useful for networking (if you go to a good school). There are classes that can help you understand business fundamentals. You have easy access to mentors who may take an interest in you.

But you can do all of this stuff out of college, too. College just puts it all in one place, for a low low low low price of $xx,xxx a year! WOW!

Go if you want to, or if you're trying to buy your way into a country with a favorable business tax structure* for residents while living off of a hefty financial aid package, while at the same time getting access to the awesome facilities that a world-ranked university has to offer. (But I only know of one person in this scenario.)

*If your business meets certain criteria. Ask a tax professional, or at least someone who knows better than I. Don't PM me about this.

 

[Vigilante]

Here are two real world examples of recent college graduates and how they are doing (in terms of getting a job; which is what most students are hoping for). They're not entrepreneurial (at least for now). I tried.

Guy 1. Majored in Economics.

• Was applying for multiple jobs everyday over the summer. He has no job right now.

Guy 2. Majored in Business. Concentrated in Management.

• Had a job lined up for him before he even graduated.

Besides the major, what do I believe helped one out more than the other? In short, the social aspect of college.

Guy 2 was in the fraternity Delta Sigma Pi (professional business fraternity) which helped him meet a lot of people. Guy 1 was not a member of any fraternity. I don't believe the fraternity itself was the value, but the networking was. The fraternity just helped with the networking. Fraternity / sorority or not ... it takes personal initiative to network with people who will help (which can be done outside of college too).

PS: I recently bought the book: "What Next? The Millennial's Guide to Surviving and Thriving in the Real World" by Michael Price a few days ago. It was written by a "millennial" who apparently had success in both the corporate world AND as an entrepreneur. I'll post cliffs here or in another thread with the best insights once I finish it. It may take some time though.

PPS: Guy 2 also worked really hard on campus to help him earn money and scholarships. Major respect for him even if he is an employee forever. That might be another significant difference between the two.

Interesting point on the greek system. My daughter and son both were greek during college. The networking and life skills they gained in their sorority and fraternity were invaluable. In fact, my son just met the founder of ESPN a few days ago, solely because of his fraternity connection. One could make the case based on the greek society alone that college is worthwhile to gain admittance into that private, life long club.

 

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[LibertyForMe]

I think you need to not show anyone anything for a while and just think about it. Figure it out in your brain first, before trying to convince family.

It may even be necessary just to let them think whatever they want to think, and just do what you want to.

Slow down a bit and think about it for a few days.

 

[AubreyJ]

I don't think you'll remove the doubt of your parents especially since you have doubt.

I completely agree with this. How are you supposed to convince other people of your plan or idea, if you haven't even fully convinced yourself yet. If you want your parents, friends, whoever to believe in you, you have to believe in yourself first. You have to jump into your business head first and put 100% of your time, energy, and effort into it. Because if you don't go 100%-you'll never do it, and it will never grow to its full potential. Don't doubt yourself

 

[Nadia]

I am glad to hear about a success story like yours! Within 5 minutes I found more free graphic design resources that were not only MORE helpful than my college graphic design class, but also included stuff that my NEXT college doesn't even include. College really is a business. It's hard though when I see my dad who has a great job from a Bachelor's Degree AND he went on to make his own inventions and books. Plus let's face it, living away from home will be like what MJ did on a smaller scale. I'll FINALLY be on my own in a fun environment, hehe.

Why thank you Always learning and achieving.

University is a cash cow. See it for what it is and avoid the hell out of it.
Your dad is the exception. NOT the norm.

 

[loop101]

In my opinion, you need a college degree if you are going to be seeking employment. Businesses try to reduce risk, and a college degree shows you are able to finish what you start. The hiring manager also usually has a college degree, and hiring you without one - will show they made a mistake in getting one. If they do hire you, you will likely be financially penalized for not having one. I've made about 20%-30% less than my coworkers during my 25 year IT career. I've see this throughout my career, and the careers of others. If you are going to ask someone for a job, a degree will help in many ways. When you seek employment, YOU are the product.

If you plan to sell something else, then you are not the product, and nobody cares about your credentials. MJ used the chef example, but left out one part. The chef would probably not be working at a good restaurant if he had not gone to a good culinary school. If you sold food over the internet, no one cares if you went to culinary school.

I've known IT consultants who made a lot of money, but they were self-employed, and worked for clients who went by the reputation of their business. Sometimes a client would want to see the resume of the person doing the work, but those were rare.

IMHO, whether you need a degree or not, depends on whether you are the product or not. From what I understand about Fast Lane businesses, you are NOT supposed to be the product!

 

[DeletedUser2]

Did you liquidate the company?

I did ok
Z

 

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[Daniel A]

Edit: I was going to embed a funny tweet but it isn't working...

@ProblemOd I agree man.

 

[NicoleMarie]

How's the "backup plan" working for a lot of college graduates? Having a degree being a "backup plan" is a huge myth, and a costly one at that. Just ask the thousands of college grads who are bartending, waiting tables, and pouring coffee. How's that backup plan working for ya? Instead of having a backup, their backed up to a mountain of debt. Not the "back" they thought they were getting, wouldncha say?

I agree. I guess she sees, firsthand, my dad who succeeded with his Bachelor's Degree and sees we are very well off. She says people these days won't take me seriously or trust me unless I have that ever important degree.

I can't just pick up and leave, like you did, because I don't even know if this is just an "amped up phase" I'm having from reading your inspiring book. Heck, I don't even know if I have the motivation it takes, thus the "mediocre backup plan." If I fail and have to settle with a job, so be it I guess. I'm not giving up yet, but it's hard to read something that totally contradicts everything my parents and I have learned, and just trust that.

Thank you for you much needed feedback.

 

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[LibertyForMe]

I am glad I can help! Your post really resonated with me, so I felt like I should respond.

Also, take into consideration who is paying for your college. Are your parents paying for it? Are you having to take out loans for everything?

 

[CarrieW]

I agree with whoever said that you need to wrap your head around this first. you need to know what it is you want and then figure out how to get it...

I moved from pa to fla 2wks after I turned 18. I had no idea what I was doing. I figured it out. so can you.

you don't have to move 1k miles from home to get there, but first and foremost you have to stop with the I cant and I don't know how's. no one ever knows how until they figured it out!

you don't need to know everything. you just need to believe in yourself enough to know that you can figure it out! start! just decided what you want to do and start doing it.

I know a lot of stuff now... but the biggest thing I ever learned is this. the more I know the more I realize I have a lot more to learn... you will never ever be ready for certain things in life... its called a leap of faith for a reason

 

[splok]

Just curious, why did you mention in your book that you don't regret the college degrees you got?

I'm not MJ of course, but for whatever it's worth, I have 3 degrees that I regret getting, even though they helped me to land my "dream job" as well as my followup to it which is actually a pretty great job. I definitely learned a ton and gained some considerable benefit from college. But was it worth the time and money spent?

It sure doesn't feel like it to me.

Cognitive dissonance keeps most people from admitting that they wasted huge amounts of time and/or money, so most people with degrees can't or won't admit that it was a bad choice, even if it was. This tendency makes it really tricky when considering the opinions of others about their past experiences. (Of course, to be fair, you should also consider confirmation bias when looking at success stories too. You only really hear about the winners.)

I don't want to say that college is bad for you though. We're in a bit of a bizzaro-world here on this forum. Everyone here wants to have their own business, and college doesn't really help you with that (there are exceptions of course, but they're just that, exceptions). However, the vast majority of people out there just want a nice job with a nice salary, doing work they find interesting. The people searching for that outcome are probably very well advised to go to college (though they should probably major in something reasonably marketable and try to do it without loans).

 

[NicoleMarie]

Thanks so much for all your replies. I just kinda went into panic mode today after the heated discussion with my mom and I wanted to maintain my open mind and get opposing opinions. I just couldn't explain to her that this book wasn't some guy saying random nonsense to make money off me. I'm just going to leave her out of it and continue on. I already have made strides in just a week.