Am I getting scammed?! Alibaba (Overseas Importing Payment Options)

[Jake]

Yea of course, just saying if he absolutely has no other choice. He has to take a risk.

From my experience living in China, suppliers have taken a risk on me many times.

Producing what I ask upfront, with little to no deposit, then just trusting I'd return and pay them afterwards.

It works both ways.

Same. I was just sent 300 items without paying. I ordered 1000, I was running out of stock so I needed more asap so they sent 300 and told me not to worry about payment until the entire order was complete.

Maybe it helps that I visited and let the boss buy me lunch

 

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[Tehcasa]

Just to comment on this post... If you are limiting yourself to only factories that take Paypal, you are limiting your business options. Your goal is to find the best factory for your product. Methods of payment should be secondary. In fact, I would love to find a factory that only takes gold coins, because this limits the commandment of entry for your competitors. One day you may be wondering where your competitor makes such a great product and why you can't find his supplier, then you'll realize it's because their factory is on top of a mountain only accessible by carrier pigeon.

Agreed 100%. I just thought it was ideal for startups to use paypal only at the start for 6 months just to get used to everything. I leant my lesson today, I am wrong. Thanks for this great advice

You don't have to be incredibly successful or knowledgeable to teach others how to do something. You just have to know enough, and then be very good at marketing. Will Mitchell and Scott Voelker fall into this category, as an example.

The difference is that those two bring in experts who really know what they are talking about, and are then humbled by what they learn, whereas you call the most experienced importer on this forum "nuts", "dogmatic", "BS", "ludicrous" and "not wrong in everything".




You respect him so much, in fact, that you call him "nuts", "dogmatic", "BS", "ludicrous" and "not wrong in everything".

You are welcome to stop listening to people with decades of experience. Some people need to put their hands directly into the fire to know that it burns.

You're 18. You don't know what you don't know. I remember what it was like to be where you are at. When I was 21, I thought I knew everything. Now in my mid-40's, I realize how uncommon common sense can be when you're 18 and know everything there is to know. I was you once. You're going to have to live a bit before the world starts to make more sense and before you can make some order from the chaos. Your generation starts with the premise that you don't have or need to listen to the people who blazed trails before you. That's potentially a fatal character flaw but one that can eventually make you stronger.

Your post from your limited experience, assaulting and insulting someone wiser who has helped you directly, is why people ultimately disengage. You won't understand what I am saying until this happens to you some day, and then you'll get it but it will be too late.

Good luck to you. You have rough waters in front of you, but learning to sail them solo might make you stronger. You don't need any more advice. Your profile says "18 year old life coach."

Walter, I'm sorry to have tagged you into this. However, know that I agree with 99.9% of what you said. Don't feel as if you are obligated to respond to any of this. Sometimes the best teacher is time and first hand experience. I'd blow this off and disengage from further requests from people who treat what you have to say with distain. Thank you for answering my original request.

Thank you

You don't have to be incredibly successful or knowledgeable to teach others how to do something. You just have to know enough, and then be very good at marketing. Will Mitchell and Scott Voelker fall into this category, as an example.

The difference is that those two bring in experts who really know what they are talking about, and are then humbled by what they learn, whereas you call the most experienced importer on this forum "nuts", "dogmatic", "BS", "ludicrous" and "not wrong in everything".




You respect him so much, in fact, that you call him "nuts", "dogmatic", "BS", "ludicrous" and "not wrong in everything".

You don't have to be incredibly successful or knowledgeable to teach others how to do something. You just have to know enough, and then be very good at marketing. Will Mitchell and Scott Voelker fall into this category, as an example.

The difference is that those two bring in experts who really know what they are talking about, and are then humbled by what they learn, whereas you call the most experienced importer on this forum "nuts", "dogmatic", "BS", "ludicrous" and "not wrong in everything".




You respect him so much, in fact, that you call him "nuts", "dogmatic", "BS", "ludicrous" and "not wrong in everything".

I had a paragraph I was going to send, but I was like nah what's the point. Don't want to add fire to the heat. But thanks for the response. I hope you have a lovely day.

@Tehcasa you say you totally disagree but the you go on to agree on a majority of stuff

@Tehcasa you say you totally disagree but the you go on to agree on a majority of stuff

I too use Alibaba and don't think there is other sourcing platform out there with the size and product display it has. @Walter Hay advices other platforms and explains why Alibaba that good of a platform, and yes the Gold status is BS as it is because it's just a payment the supplier does. Now, it's more likely that legit suppliers pay for Gold Status than scamers, but that doesn't rule them out unfortunately. Verification is also BS, even outsourced company reports claiming they are factories when they are clearly not...

So while I do partly agree with you on not discarding Alibaba, I've also been importing for 3 years, and the only "suppliers" who accepted Paypal were small trading companies. One of them contacted me after 1 year asking me if I had gotten the money back because Paypal froze their funds... I'm now using a super legit factory, and the guy did me a favor of buying me a smartphone and sending me, I paid him by Paypal, guess what, after 1 month the account got frozen and he asked me to claim back.

When you are dealing with mid-big sized factories, the chance of them accepting Paypal is close to zero, it's just a risk they are not willing to take because any reputable importer will use bank transfer. Only "kids" looking to get a few samples here and there ask for Paypal payments (I did too myself).

I've visited 7 factories on my last visit to China, none accept Paypal.

So yes, limiting to Paypal payments will not only limit the number of suppliers, but will also lead to low quality ones and most likely trading companies.

Now... NEVER pay by WU if that's the only payment method they accept, that's scam alert 200%... If they accept WU I always ask for bank details first, that will give you another layer of security.

I know this is probably bad to insight to state: but visiting only 7 factories and having this incident initialized in your times using PayP

 

[Jambla]

At this point is there any reason paying them with wire is safer than WU? If there is Id like to know, I know credit cards can be insured sometimes for some things but I'm not sure about bank transfer. Maybe you could maybe get it reversed somehow or find the person a month or 2 from now if you realise it was a scam?

Also if you're not sure enough to pay them with WU, why pay them anything at all?

I'm not directly asking you, but if anyone has a response I'd love to hear it. The only correct answer is it's only slightly more expensive to do the bank transfer, but is it really any safer?

Maybe I'm just cheap and it will cost me one day.

I could not find a way to pay over any other method, I couldn't get WU to work it wouldn't let me select USD as receiving currency. Me wanting to use a credit card was not for protection but a way to fund my first order.

 

[TKDTyler]

With friends like these...



I hope I never get to the point where I am too smart and stop listening.

Would you like to be placed in an insane asylum or assisted living quarters for the elderly?

 

[HyperFocus]

Very cool stuff, thanks everyone!

 

[Vincent_Vega]

Is everybody paying directly via wire transfer into the suppliers bank account or are you guys using the Alibaba secure payment? I guess even if it's not perfectly safe, it gives you a bit more security than paying the money directly to the supplier?

 

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[iAmTrade]

I didn't read everything,

And anyone/everyone goes around importing...but I love how no one knows how to genuinely NOT GET SCAMMED TRADING.

Anyone heard of L/C?

Anyone know full intercoms and trading policies? Anyone know how to...

WALTER IS THAT GUY, THAT DOES. I know, because I've talked to him about it all. I've read more books on laws/regulations on international trade than 90% of you anyone "doing it"... than again I just keep things in my head because I find it necessary to just "know" things.

When you run a deal with $ 5,000.00 worth of goods, you can go to paypal, and do your "stuff"... and lose out on $5K, big whoop, work for another month resave and start over...
When you run a deal with $ 50,000.00 worth of goods, on a contractual basis of 12 months to 3 years...thats $600,000 to 1.8 MILLION DOLLARS...... thats when you don't want to get your a$$ handed to you on a silver platter by a punk in China making believe he can spend 1k to get gold on Alibaba, and convince people he can offer the mining equipment he just scammed someone out of a week ago and made himself 50k$ USD JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE MORONS WHO DIDNT UNDERSTAND TRADING PROPERLY, AND WITH PROPER SECURITY.

I base my above example of such a scam, on a TRUE STORY that occurred to a friend of mine who got me interested in trading a few years ago. Thank god for litigation, you'll get your money back 5 years later. ... Yea..

When Walter says watch your a$$.. I suggest you watch your a$$.

@Walter Hay you keep on giving champ. Thanks.

 

[Walter Hay]

I would like everyone to know that Tehcasa has emailed me an apology. I won't publish it, but I accept it unreservedly, and wish him all the best for the future.

The good thing about this whole exercise for him is that he truly has learned something from it and this can only be for his benefit in the long run.

Please go easy on him now.

Walter

 

[Vincent_Vega]

One last question: Say I have a reliable company which offers me Paypal on a production-order (<$3000), should I then pay with Paypal or still pay via Alibaba Escrow?

 

[Walter Hay]

Is everybody paying directly via wire transfer into the suppliers bank account or are you guys using the Alibaba secure payment? I guess even if it's not perfectly safe, it gives you a bit more security than paying the money directly to the supplier?

One last question: Say I have a reliable company which offers me Paypal on a production-order (<$3000), should I then pay with Paypal or still pay via Alibaba Escrow?

Please see Post #14 on Page 1 of this thread, where I explained that Alibaba Escrow no longer exists and its replacement, Secure Payment is still full of loopholes.

I explained payment methods in more detail in this post: Sharing my lifetime experience in export/import. Product sourcing specialist.

Walter

 

[Vincent_Vega]

Please see Post #14 on Page 1 of this thread, where I explained that Alibaba Escrow no longer exists and its replacement, Secure Payment is still full of loopholes.

I explained payment methods in more detail in this post: Sharing my lifetime experience in export/import. Product sourcing specialist.

Walter

Thank you for your reply, Walter. But that didn't answer my last question. In your thread, you said that some genuine suppliers do offer Paypal for larger transactions. In that case, would you then use Paypal or still one of the other payment methods?

 

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[Walter Hay]

Thank you for your reply, Walter. But that didn't answer my last question. In your thread, you said that some genuine suppliers do offer Paypal for larger transactions. In that case, would you then use Paypal or still one of the other payment methods?

If they really are genuine manufacturers and they offer PayPal, the biggest concerns are:

• PayPal's transaction cost is high, and they won't accept payment through PayPal unless you pay those costs.
• The recipient will almost certainly be an individual, not the company.
• PayPal protection can be avoided by scammers if they send packages filled with trash and you make the wrong kind of claim with PayPal. Don't tell PayPal the products were faulty, or not meeting description. If you have signed for them you must video the process of opening the packages, and if they are full of stones or sawdust, notify PayPal that the transaction is fraudulent.

Walter

 

[Vincent_Vega]

If they really are genuine manufacturers and they offer PayPal, the biggest concerns are:

• PayPal's transaction cost is high, and they won't accept payment through PayPal unless you pay those costs.

I always thought that it's normal to pay the transaction cost on my own.

• The recipient will almost certainly be an individual, not the company.

Could that become a problem in some way?

• PayPal protection can be avoided by scammers if they send packages filled with trash and you make the wrong kind of claim with PayPal. Don't tell PayPal the products were faulty, or not meeting description. If you have signed for them you must video the process of opening the packages, and if they are full of stones or sawdust, notify PayPal that the transaction is fraudulent.

Wow, thanks for that. Recording the opening process for the PayPal protection is a really valuable tip and I didn't think of that.
So that means that I can use the Paypal protection for not-meeting-the-description, being-faulty and not-delivered products?
Walter

 

[Walter Hay]

"Wow, thanks for that. Recording the opening process for the PayPal protection is a really valuable tip and I didn't think of that.
So that means that I can use the Paypal protection for not-meeting-the-description, being-faulty and not-delivered products?"

That can be OK if you have proof by way of screen shots of absolutely all communications, their online advertisements, shipment notifications, your specifications etc.

The video record is a last resort, and can be of value if you claim fraud.

Walter

 

[Walter Hay]

Sorry but I just discovered that you had asked a couple more questions within the body of the quote:

I always thought that it's normal to pay the transaction cost on my own. That is usual in western countries but not in China.

• The recipient will almost certainly be an individual, not the company.

Could that become a problem in some way? Yes it could be if the PayPal account is owned by someone who is defrauding his own boss.

Walter

 

[contract]

Either through Alibaba or outside if it only via Paypal.

Nothing else.

Ali's protection is solid. Paypal's protection is solid.

WU is like sending cash. You're praying someone miles of miles away outside of your legal reign delivers on a commitment made online. On a larger deal; If it would cost more (time, money, legal expense, travel) to collect than it would to receive product reconsider.

I've yet to have a single supplier on Ali run after getting payment. I don't worry about things I cannot control. I let Ali/PP deal with that and focus on my business.

 

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[Walter Hay]

Either through Alibaba or outside if it only via Paypal.

Nothing else.

Ali's protection is solid. Paypal's protection is solid.

WU is like sending cash. You're praying someone miles of miles away outside of your legal reign delivers on a commitment made online. On a larger deal; If it would cost more (time, money, legal expense, travel) to collect than it would to receive product reconsider.

I've yet to have a single supplier on Ali run after getting payment. I don't worry about things I cannot control. I let Ali/PP deal with that and focus on my business.

Sadly there have been thousands of suppliers on Alibaba that have run after taking payment. I have also been contacted by a number of unhappy buyers who have been denied protection by PayPal because they claimed "Goods not as described" after they had opened the package and found sawdust, stones 1/2 brick etc.

This is why I suggested filming the opening of the parcel. If your friendly courier driver will remain present while you do it, make sure you accidentally get their image in the screen at some stage. Probably better to not draw attention to that, otherwise he/she might quickly depart. People don't like to get involved.

You are right about WU. In reality you are sending cash.

I have a friend who traveled to India each time he placed a container load order. He physically supervised packing and loading, and the sealing of the container before he handed over the payment.

Walter

 

[Vincent_Vega]

Just took a look at the Paypal buyer protection rules. It states that a transaction isn't eligible for protection when paid in multiple payments, like deposit and final payment.
So how can that work with Alibaba? It's almost always deposit for production first and then final payment before shipping.

 

[Walter Hay]

Just took a look at the Paypal buyer protection rules. It states that a transaction isn't eligible for protection when paid in multiple payments, like deposit and final payment.
So how can that work with Alibaba? It's almost always deposit for production first and then final payment before shipping.

Ha Ha. Gotcha! I guess that's the reaction from Alibaba staff. But that's only one small issue. There are a lot more loopholes in Alibaba's Trade Assurance scheme.

For example, if your deposit is less than $1,000 you can't get cover anyway, but for the full story have a look at my detailed explanation of Trade Assurance here:Sharing my lifetime experience in export/import. Product sourcing specialist.

Walter

 

[Vincent_Vega]

Ha Ha. Gotcha! I guess that's the reaction from Alibaba staff. But that's only one small issue. There are a lot more loopholes in Alibaba's Trade Assurance scheme.

For example, if your deposit is less than $1,000 you can't get cover anyway, but for the full story have a look at my detailed explanation of Trade Assurance here:Sharing my lifetime experience in export/import. Product sourcing specialist.

Walter

You missunderstood my last sentence. If I buy from an Alibaba-Supplier via Paypal, I will have to make a deposit first and then pay the rest. But Paypal states that they don't cover multiple payments.

Do you have suggestions for that?

 

[Walter Hay]

You missunderstood my last sentence. If I buy from an Alibaba-Supplier via Paypal, I will have to make a deposit first and then pay the rest. But Paypal states that they don't cover multiple payments.

Do you have suggestions for that?

Thanks for pointing out my slip. About the only alternative you have is to pay the deposit by another means such as T/T, and the larger balance via PayPal. That way at least the larger part of your risk will have some protection. PayPal won't know that the amount you have paid through them is not the full amount.

Walter

 

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[Vincent_Vega]

Thanks for pointing out my slip. About the only alternative you have is to pay the deposit by another means such as T/T, and the larger balance via PayPal. That way at least the larger part of your risk will have some protection. PayPal won't know that the amount you have paid through them is not the full amount.

Walter

Thank you! I always wonder why I never get those ideas.

But after reading through everything you wrote about Alibaba Escrow, it seems that it's safer/more protected to use Paypal anyway?

 

[Georgy]

Apologies for not reading everything up till now as I only read the first post. From experience, stay away from anyone (even if legit) who only wants to accept WU. Maybe it's been mentioned on here countless times but Western Union is jargon for "let me screw you". Only use WU for family lol.

Every company should have a Paypal account. But mind you I've never dealt with Alibaba so I'm not sure what payment methods are popular in that part of the world. And if you do pay with Paypal make sure the money is coming from your CC and not your chequings/savings account. Because worse case scenario if Paypal doesn't protect you because their being dumb, you simply contact your CC company and they'll make sure to do everything to keep you on board . This comes from experience. Again, the main point here is that all paths end with using your CC.

 

[Walter Hay]

Thank you! I always wonder why I never get those ideas.

But after reading through everything you wrote about Alibaba Escrow, it seems that it's safer/more protected to use Paypal anyway?

Using Paypal gives limited protection, but be sure to film the parcel opening process and if you have been scammed, contact PayPal about a fraud case, not about product not as specified.

You will find a lot more information this here: Sharing my lifetime experience in export/import. Product sourcing specialist.

Walter

 

[Walter Hay]

Apologies for not reading everything up till now as I only read the first post. From experience, stay away from anyone (even if legit) who only wants to accept WU. Maybe it's been mentioned on here countless times but Western Union is jargon for "let me screw you". Only use WU for family lol.

Every company should have a Paypal account. But mind you I've never dealt with Alibaba so I'm not sure what payment methods are popular in that part of the world. And if you do pay with Paypal make sure the money is coming from your CC and not your chequings/savings account. Because worse case scenario if Paypal doesn't protect you because their being dumb, you simply contact your CC company and they'll make sure to do everything to keep you on board . This comes from experience. Again, the main point here is that all paths end with using your CC.

Thanks for your contribution Georgy. Yes using a credit card does add a further layer of protection. Most manufacturers don't offer PayPal, and it is a poor option for large amounts. The supplier will invariably require you to pay the PayPal fees.

Walter

 

[Vincent_Vega]

Thanks for your contribution Georgy. Yes using a credit card does add a further layer of protection. Most manufacturers don't offer PayPal, and it is a poor option for large amounts. The supplier will invariably require you to pay the PayPal fees.

Walter

Most cc-companies offer some kind of shopping protection. Like "pay with your cc and if you don't get your goods or they are damaged, we will refund the money". I guess this will also apply if paying an alibaba supplier with Paypal+cc?

 

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[Georgy]

Most cc-companies offer some kind of shopping protection. Like "pay with your cc and if you don't get your goods or they are damaged, we will refund the money". I guess this will also apply if paying an alibaba supplier with Paypal+cc?

The best thing to do is for the dude to contact his CC company and ask if he would be protected. I've never heard a case around me where the CC company did not come in and protect their client (you). But if this is about a $50k batch of goods you're buying from Alibaba, maybe the CC companies have something in their policy that doesn't cover certain situations (ex: buying from Alibaba). That's why you always need to call in to get clarification. Anytime I do a big transaction, I call in whether it's Paypal or my CC company and make it crystal clear what I'm doing and if I will be protected. If they say yes, I take down their name and employee number (yeah, it sounds like a bi**h but you don't want to be screwed by them as well) and have it for safe keeping. God forbid you get screwed and then PP or CC company won't protect you.

 

[Walter Hay]

Most cc-companies offer some kind of shopping protection. Like "pay with your cc and if you don't get your goods or they are damaged, we will refund the money". I guess this will also apply if paying an alibaba supplier with Paypal+cc?

Yes in fact paying with CC you can bypass PayPal when making a claim. Chargebacks on cc payments are very close to automatic. The customer is king.

The best thing to do is for the dude to contact his CC company and ask if he would be protected. I've never heard a case around me where the CC company did not come in and protect their client (you). But if this is about a $50k batch of goods you're buying from Alibaba, maybe the CC companies have something in their policy that doesn't cover certain situations (ex: buying from Alibaba). That's why you always need to call in to get clarification. Anytime I do a big transaction, I call in whether it's Paypal or my CC company and make it crystal clear what I'm doing and if I will be protected. If they say yes, I take down their name and employee number (yeah, it sounds like a bi**h but you don't want to be screwed by them as well) and have it for safe keeping. God forbid you get screwed and then PP or CC company won't protect you.

Large transactions regarded as commercial will usually not receive the same protection from the Credit Card companies. On large transactions you should use Letter of Credit or a genuine escrow services such as escrow.com. See my article on the subject of payment methods as per the link in my post #54 above.

Walter

 

[Vincent_Vega]

Yes in fact paying with CC you can bypass PayPal when making a claim. Chargebacks on cc payments are very close to automatic. The customer is king.

So if PP doesn't want to help me, the cc company will take care of the claim. But when they charge back the money, will they take it from PP then? Does that really work so easy?

And after reading your thread, it seems that the only really safe option is an escrow service, right? Paying escrow.com via wire would cost me as much of a fee as paying directly via Paypal.
And deposit/balance wouldn't be necessary then, right? Paying the whole price upfront would be safe?

 

[Georgy]

Escrow is another company I forgot about. I used them when buying domain names. Not sure how it works buying goods through Escrow but definitely a trusted source. Basically there's a safeguard through the whole process so you can't get screwed. Given Walter's experience with this you can't get any safer with them.

Walter, could you elaborate on "Letter of Credit"?