A Conversation about death...

[Veloce Grey]

Honestly, if I don't die at some point I'm going to be so annoyed I'll probably drive my car off a cliff.

And if anyone uploads me to a cloud they do so at their own bloody risk as I'll make that crazed Amazon robot of a few weeks back look like a pacifist.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

Well isn't that also a belief based on assumption?
I mean I will be honest, I can't prove that you are going to die some day. Nor can you prove that you won't die some day either. I mean even if we as a human race reach to a level where we can extend our lives by a million years, how do you know in a million years and one day you won't die?

The facts are for the years that have passed, we always had a day we lived and a day we died, we don't have any evidence that anyone is still alive from let's say a thousand years ago. So my answer to your last question is how will my belief stop me from believing in it when you can't prove it?

I realize they appear the same, but they are not. The belief that we can live indefinitely is a belief based on an assumption, yes. The difference between this belief and the belief that death is inevitable is that the former is based on what is possible rather than on what is not.

You cannot prove something impossible, only improbable, and there is no reason to prove what is possible because once the possible occurs, it no longer needs proving as it becomes reality. So you cannot prove that death is inevitable, and there is no reason to prove if it might not be since if we find a way to defeat death it will just be accepted as a new reality, although that doesn't mean everyone will choose to live indefinitely - only that we have the capability to do so.

We have always died in the past, this is correct. However, this is not a sound argument for why we must die in the future. Instead, it is a logical fallacy - an appeal to tradition. It doesn't matter that nobody has previously survived for thousands of years. Until CPR existed, humans were presumed dead once they stopped breathing. After CPR, it did not matter that previous humans were believed dead when they quit breathing. CPR became an accepted practice and continues to be used to this day to save and extend lives.

Your belief won't stop you from believing. If a cure for Alzheimer's becomes available, your beliefs won't make you disbelief in that cure. It will be a widely accepted cure. But if your culture or religious beliefs tell you that medicines are "bad" then those beliefs will likely hinder you from having a choice to use such medications even if you were to be diagnosed with Alzheimer's. I'm using "you" but I don't specifically mean "you" since you might not make that choice in the moment, and we wouldn't know which choice you made until you are faced with that choice.

 

[Thomas Baptiste]

MODERATOR NOTE:
The thought that it's all coming to an end for everyone is the most frustrating, sad thought in the world. Almost as sad and distressing as the realization that virtually nobody cares and everybody on the planet is an enabler.

This is probably why most people refuse to even think death. Death is uncomfortable. The event itself, and no process in the world is going to 'stop' death. We're all going to die one day. Those that accept it for what it is are going to have more fulfilling lives. I mean this is relative to everyone, but i don't really fear death like i used to before. I've been through so many life -threatening situations by now, I just literally laugh when I encounter them now. I honestly enjoy the experiences i have now, good or bad. Some people use religion and other ideals to convince themselves that they'll never die. I respect that. I was raised religious too. Personally I rather focus on the life I'm living now than the death that follows. No other living creature lives focusing on the inevitability of death.

I'm not religious but I use this alot " accept the things I cannot change, change the things I can and be wise enough to know the difference"

My point exactly.

 

[Lex DeVille]

The event itself, and no process in the world is going to 'stop' death. We're all going to die one day.

This can't be proven true. Only proven false. So it is only your opinion. Not a fact.

Those that accept it for what it is are going to have more fulfilling lives.

Again, no possible way you can prove this true. I find my life quite fulfilling and I do not accept death as a fact anymore than I accept cancer as an undefeatable disease. I also imagine it would be difficult to have a fulfilling life without the life part.

My point exactly.

My original point was that virtually everyone believes death is inevitable already, and therefore they make statements suggesting this position without challenging said position. So I guess I can make the same statement as yours...my point exactly.

 

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[Thomas Baptiste]

This can't be proven true. Only proven false. So it is only your opinion. Not a fact.


Again, no possible way you can prove this true. I find my life quite fulfilling and I do not accept death as a fact anymore than I accept cancer as an undefeatable disease. I also imagine it would be difficult to have a fulfilling life without the life part.

Opinions yes, coming from my personal experience. If you have any facts proving otherwise i'd love to see them. The basis of belief is a mixture of mindset and experience. What i stated are my belies and that's a fact.

 

[Rockstar]

“All people eventually die, but as long as someone protects what that person stood for, they won't really die.”

This make me calm for some reason. I don't belive in God or something and I don't even care.
It doesn't matter if the God exists, if life after death exists... You should always do your best.
Life is like buissnes. You don't know if you will succeed, but anyway you must give everything from yourself.

If life after death exists it's great, if not it's also okay. you will not change it so why care about it?

My attitude to life is extreme hedonism and I know that it's not the best, but i don't care

 

[andyhaus44]

My wife would always get a nice surprise when she opened up a new tab on my laptop. She did not appreciate it either.

Not for everyone!

I can totally relate to this. Thought about using it but I like the 'Momentum' tab too much, plus there is an app called 'WeCroak', which I just started using.

 

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[Tourmaline]

@Lex DeVille The difficult question is indeed how long people should live for.

The reason they must die is for adaptation and change to take place for the better. The old tend to get set in a way. The new tend to create new ways.

Death is a part of nature because it is essential for adapatation and evolution of nature.

On a different note, death makes time have value. If we lived forever, every year and thus every day would have very little value. It would be unlimited, and rarely does something that has no element of scarcity have much value. Even 1000 years would greatly diminish the value of time.

If you consider both that the old must die for change to take place and that death is required for time to have value, then you will start to find some answer to 'how long people should live for'. To me it seems like more than 200 years is likely too long. 100 years is a long time as it is, at least at the current rate at which technology and ideas progress.

I see death not as a tragedy, but as a part of nature, that makes the experience of living and each life have far more value in and of itself.

 

[MHP368]

Interesting anecdote (late to the thread)

The first skilled nursing facility (nursing home) I worked at had a respiratory / ventilator unit. Round the clock on staff respiratory therapist suctioning mucous from throat tracheas and doing breathing treatments.

I naively presumed that most of my clients before seeing the floor , would be long term smokers. Wrong. Over half were morbidly obese , the diaphragm (the muscle primarily concerned with breathing) just wasnt having it anymore.

Mj's insight into this as addiction is insightful (and hopefully compassion inducing) , these folks (a lot of them) had loving family members , but they were bed bound and couldnt wipe their own butts! That means long before hospitalization these family members were doing things like changing adult diapers but continuing to feed these folks excess calories!

Codependance anyone?

 

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[Lex DeVille]

@Lex DeVille The difficult question is indeed how long people should live for.

The reason they must die is for adaptation and change to take place for the better. The old tend to get set in a way. The new tend to create new ways.

Death is a part of nature because it is essential for adapatation and evolution of nature.

On a different note, death makes time have value. If we lived forever, every year and thus every day would have very little value. It would be unlimited, and rarely does something that has no element of scarcity have much value. Even 1000 years would greatly diminish the value of time.

If you consider both that the old must die for change to take place and that death is required for time to have value, then you will start to find some answer to 'how long people should live for'. To me it seems like more than 200 years is likely too long. 100 years is a long time as it is, at least at the current rate at which technology and ideas progress.

I see death not as a tragedy, but as a part of nature, that makes the experience of living and each life have far more value in and of itself.

I'm not open to arguing these points with anyone who hasn't done their homework and presents arguments based on beliefs. Instead, I will refer you to the above video with one of many actual experts working on problems like this who can present a credible perspective.

 

[Lex DeVille]

I appreciate the link and will watch the entire thing. It seems to be looking at the biology of it, and not the sociological impact of not aging.

I have zero doubt that one day people will only die when they choose to or are forced to. It is only a matter of time and of sufficient technology.

That however leaves all the imporant questions faced by society still unanswered.

Do you happen to have someone you like that addresses such questions?

Dr. Aubrey de Grey is probably the one who talks most about questions such as those in your post. Several of your questions are answered in the video with Dr. Sinclair as well. Although he is a geneticist, he specifically discusses issues of evolution and nature if I recall correctly. It was only posted a few days ago so it's pretty new.

 

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[Tourmaline]

Awesome, I'll check him out as well. Always fun to have my brain tickled, thanks.

 

[amp0193]

The reason they must die is for adaptation and change to take place for the better. The old tend to get set in a way. The new tend to create new ways.

The counterpoint is that change isn't always for the better.

History may be slower to repeat itself if humans lived twice as long.


I do agree with your thought of death giving more value to time, and think that's one of the more positive aspects of death. If not more value, it certainly adds urgency to our day to day.

 

[Real Deal Denver]

Interesting, but very sad, thread.

I'm only throwing a few nuggets for thought out there because I am obligated to do so. My religious beliefs require me to take a stand and be a witness. So here goes.

No, this isn't going to be quoting anything religious. Surprised? Well, hold on.

First of all, I am amazed at the people I've met in my life that have not taken any time to research ANY religion. They make a sweeping judgment based on something such as the Church abusing children. Or the tooth fairy. Whatever - pick your excuse. So they sign off on all religion. How convenient. A ready-made excuse for you; just add water and stir. Whatever you pick, know this; you will be formulating your opinion on man-made things or events. Keep God and whatever man has done separated in your analysis.

Now, consider this. If someone doesn't believe there is a God, and there isn't one, what have they lost after they die? Nothing. On the other hand, what if they don't believe, and there actually IS a God in Heaven? What have they lost now? Everything. So perhaps you have everything to gain and nothing to lose - and that, in my book, is a no-lose bet. Since we MAY be talking about your existence after death, that alone should be worth some research, right? If that's not important, well then, I can't help you - but at least I throw that out there so maybe it will slowly sink in over time and you will take time someday to research something that just MIGHT be important.

Secondly, although there are thousands of modern books on the market that will address anything you want to, let's bypass that and go right to a source that IS mutually respected (looking at you Lex). Einstein. Don't even have to say his full name, do I? What did he say about God and/or life after death? Google it, if it matters.

Let's go to another source - the many people that have clinically died and returned with amazing stories. No, it wasn't due to some chemical function in their brains that made them THINK they went to heaven. They came back with names and facts that could only have been discovered IF they had actually met people in heaven. Google that too - if it matters. It's happened more than once - there are books and movies made about it. Could it be true? How sure are you?

And one final little thing to chew on, which is a personal favorite of mine. I have always pondered how the earth can stay on its precise orbit around the sun. I would think that one small imperfection would be so cumulative over the billions of years that it would cause us to drift off into space and freeze - or be pulled into the sun and fry. But no, we stay on the same path which is ideal in order to maintain the delicate balance of life we have. Add to this that we are spinning as we go, and the moon is revolving around us at the same time. Kind of mind-boggling don't you think? And let's add in that handy ozone layer that keeps us from frying from radiation. One of my atheist friends researched this further and discovered that our entire solar system is ALSO traveling in an outward direction, as the universe continues to expand. These are proven scientific FACTS people. You do the math on how this is all possible - it's way beyond me. I pointed out that the added dimension of our solar system expanding outwards at the same time as everything else was even MORE proof that some power wayyy beyond our understanding is indeed in control. That did not alter his non-belief, which didn't surprise me for some reason. He wants facts - he gets facts - but nothing changes. Sad.

And so it goes. Nothing will be proof enough to someone that has their mind made up. But I still offer these few things to think about. For those that can pry open the rusty hinges of their closed minds, they might be surprised to also learn about the differences in religions. But most won't do that much, even though Google can make it so easy for them.

If there is any chance you might think you know so much, but you could be wrong, then perhaps it might be wise to research things a bit more. Maybe even buy a book? I recommend Max Lucado, as he writes in an easy style and is thought-provoking. Another book that was made into a movie is called "The Case for Christ." This is about a reporter that is SICK of his wife being so religious, so he undertakes a journey to disprove her religious beliefs. In the end, he ends up quitting his career as a reporter and becomes a minister. He spent years on his quest and was very skilled as an investigative reporter. There may be something of value in his quest that you can learn from? Buy the book, if it matters at all. Or not - after all, what does eternity matter anyway? I assure you that something/someone wants you TO think that way, and they are not your friend. LOL. Google that too. You might learn a lot, if you try.

If I've pushed a button or two in your consciousness; then that's good. I'm not coddling you or preaching. Do want you want to do - and if you really think you're smart enough to have it figured out, then ignore all of this and please take over where Einstein left off.

 

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[Tourmaline]

The counterpoint is that change isn't always for the better.

History may be slower to repeat itself if humans lived twice as long.


I do agree with your thought of death giving more value to time, and think that's one of the more positive aspects of death. It not more value, it certainly adds urgency to our day to day.

Overall change is for the better as technology, which includes societal technology, continues to get better. It is not a straight line up of course, but in order to get to that better form of everything requires having to let go of the old.

Interesting, but very sad, thread.

I'm only throwing a few nuggets for thought out there because I am obligated to do so. My religious beliefs require me to take a stand and be a witness. So here goes.

No, this isn't going to be quoting anything religious. Surprised? Well, hold on.

First of all, I am amazed at the people I've met in my life that have not taken any time to research ANY religion. They make a sweeping judgment based on something such as the Church abusing children. Or the tooth fairy. Whatever - pick your excuse. So they sign off on all religion. How convenient. A ready-made excuse for you; just add water and stir. Whatever you pick, know this; you will be formulating your opinion on man-made things or events. Keep God and whatever man has done separated in your analysis.

Now, consider this. If someone doesn't believe there is a God, and there isn't one, what have they lost after they die? Nothing. On the other hand, what if they don't believe, and there actually IS a God in Heaven? What have they lost now? Everything. So perhaps you have everything to gain and nothing to lose - and that, in my book, is a no-lose bet. Since we MAY be talking about your existence after death, that alone should be worth some research, right? If that's not important, well then, I can't help you - but at least I throw that out there so maybe it will slowly sink in over time and you will take time someday to research something that just MIGHT be important.

Secondly, although there are thousands of modern books on the market that will address anything you want to, let's bypass that and go right to a source that IS mutually respected (looking at you Lex). Einstein. Don't even have to say his full name, do I? What did he say about God and/or life after death? Google it, if it matters.

Let's go to another source - the many people that have clinically died and returned with amazing stories. No, it wasn't due to some chemical function in their brains that made them THINK they went to heaven. They came back with names and facts that could only have been discovered IF they had actually met people in heaven. Google that too - if it matters. It's happened more than once - there are books and movies made about it. Could it be true? How sure are you?

And one final little thing to chew on, which is a personal favorite of mine. I have always pondered how the earth can stay on its precise orbit around the sun. I would think that one small imperfection would be so cumulative over the billions of years that it would cause us to drift off into space and freeze - or be pulled into the sun and fry. But no, we stay on the same path which is ideal in order to maintain the delicate balance of life we have. Add to this that we are spinning as we go, and the moon is revolving around us at the same time. Kind of mind-boggling don't you think? And let's add in that handy ozone layer that keeps us from frying from radiation. One of my atheist friends researched this further and discovered that our entire solar system is ALSO traveling in an outward direction, as the universe continues to expand. These are proven scientific FACTS people. You do the math on how this is all possible - it's way beyond me. I pointed out that the added dimension of our solar system expanding outwards at the same time as everything else was even MORE proof that some power wayyy beyond our understanding is indeed in control. That did not alter his non-belief, which didn't surprise me for some reason. He wants facts - he gets facts - but nothing changes. Sad.

And so it goes. Nothing will be proof enough to someone that has their mind made up. But I still offer these few things to think about. For those that can pry open the rusty hinges of their closed minds, they might be surprised to also learn about the differences in religions. But most won't do that much, even though Google can make it so easy for them.

If there is any chance you might think you know so much, but you could be wrong, then perhaps it might be wise to research things a bit more. Maybe even buy a book? I recommend Max Lucado, as he writes in an easy style and is thought-provoking. Another book that was made into a movie is called "The Case for Christ." This is about a reporter that is SICK of his wife being so religious, so he undertakes a journey to disprove her religious beliefs. In the end, he ends up quitting his career as a reporter and becomes a minister. He spent years on his quest and was very skilled as an investigative reporter. There may be something of value in his quest that you can learn from? Buy the book, if it matters at all. Or not - after all, what does eternity matter anyway? I assure you that something/someone wants you TO think that way, and they are not your friend. LOL. Google that too. You might learn a lot, if you try.

If I've pushed a button or two in your consciousness; then that's good. I'm not coddling you or preaching. Do want you want to do - and if you really think you're smart enough to have it figured out, then ignore all of this and please take over where Einstein left off.

Strangely, I don't think you've done due diligence regarding atheists or anti-theists yourself?

Pascal's wager is laughable to most.

Appealing to authority, Einstein even, is not very convincing.

I do personally love NDEs, but they are easily dismissable from a scientific perspective.

The laws of physics are why, and at best you're utilizing god of the gaps.

Quite a lot of effort really. Now perhaps go watch 10 hours of Hitchens and see what you're really up against? Or don't!

As an ex-atheist and an ex-anti-theist to a gnostic religious understander, while I get what you're trying to do and it is a noble pursuit overall, it is utterly pointless really. You cannot make someone see what they are holding if they refuse to look at their hands.

Have you ever noticed how your posts tend to be you mentally masturbating yourself? Because it's obvious to the rest of us.

lmao

Do you mean to say his concerted effort didn't push a button or two in your consciousness??

 

[Entre Eyes]

Culture of cash over all. Tobacco industry, Weapons, Food additives, Pollution, even G.M. allowed their own customers to die in their Autos because they knew other White collars were going to only give them a fine.

 

[Real Deal Denver]

I just meant the posts show a trend of grandiose self-conversation. Outwardly, it appears the intent is intellectual discussion. But hidden within the words is a sense of moral superiority and a perspective that others have closed minds (certainly not his own).

This isn't the first time someone has called out one of his head fantasies which also have a trend of bizarre claims and paranoia (people out to get him). It also seems these situations manifest from his own behavior (wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time). The stories also seem unlikely to have happened as described in his rant posts.

Bottom line is he isn't talking with us, just at us, as indicated by the words "my religious beliefs require me to blah blah blah." I doubt anyone took the post seriously after that point, and since he already knew it would likely trigger people, then the intent was never discussion. Only weird proselytization. Otherwise, the post would have started much differently.

Well put Lex. You're right. To bring everyone else up to speed, I realized that someone like you HAS to be told things. A more typical conversation "starting differently" would otherwise produce no results. And the purpose of my post is not to ramble or mentally masturbate - it is to gain headway past the obstinate views held so tightly by some here.

And, just as expected, your authoritative stance produced your equally expected crude and obnoxious response. Right on cue.

Rather than discuss facts, which you choose to avoid when they encroach on your ego - you sidestep the issue and go for the cheap personal attack. As expected. You're textbook.

 

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