Vegan / Vegetarians Only (Chat about lifestyle, opportunities, food, whatever...)

[Subsonic]

My brother always says that eating soy is worse for the climate than eating meat...

Man doesn't believe me when I say that like 90% of planted soy is consumed by farm animals and not by the "evil vegans who cut down the forest".

 

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[REV5028]

I'm at a keynote presentation about water concerns in New Mexico. Every minute that goes by that they don't address animal farming and consumption as a huge driver for all of these problems, my blood boils another degree hotter. Just needed to vent to a group of reasonable people.

I ended up participating in the group conversation afterwards and then some one-on-one discussion with leaders of the group. I feel a bit better about how things behind the scenes seem to be developing. I'm now also likely going to be working with the local advocacy group to put together newsletters and presentations geared towards educating and empowering individuals.

 

[Matt Sun]

Kind of rant:
One guy I met from my town in Argentina, vegan for many years, said to me that before changing his diet, he had psoriasis and that he cured himself by making the change in eating.

Do any of you have alergies ? Have you seen any change since eating just plants ?

I see so many people alergic and they just acept it as like that is life. Even heard comments like "yeah I just hope the season past fast!", like the spring is the most beautiful season and you are hoping for it's end.

 

[REV5028]

Kind of rant:
One guy I met from my town in Argentina, vegan for many years, said to me that before changing his diet, he had psoriasis and that he cured himself by making the change in eating.

Do any of you have alergies ? Have you seen any change since eating just plants ?

I see so many people alergic and they just acept it as like that is life. Even heard comments like "yeah I just hope the season past fast!", like the spring is the most beautiful season and you are hoping for it's end.

I don't have issues with allergies unless I'm eating a lot of processed stuff and not exercising regularly.

 

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[Spenny]

Do any of you have alergies ? Have you seen any change since eating just plants ?

I have a lot less inflammation from eating less dairy. I get acne flare-ups if I get spiked with diary in my food, so I'm sure that there's something in that.

 

[REV5028]

I get acne flare-ups if I get spiked with diary in my food

Same here.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I have a lot less inflammation from eating less dairy.

Was watching the NBA playoffs last night.

The announcer started talking about Mike Conley, Minnesota's "old" point guard. Conley said in Year 12 of his professional career as an NBA basketball player making MILLIONS, his body gave out and he could no longer endure the grind, unless something changed.

He eliminated red meat, dairy, and went pescatarian (plant-based with occasional fish) -- he's now in Year 17 of his career and leading a team to a world championship.

That extra 5 years on Mike Conley's career? Probably made him an extra $20,000,000. This is just one story of many from pro athletes who have extended their career through dietary changes, with hard, monetary results.

Or, you can listen to that 23 year old carnivore-bro living in his parent's basement whose ignorance won't have $20,000,000 in opportunity cost, and heart disease 25 years later.

 

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[Subsonic]

Gotta say, I love listening to Hamza and his content is what saved me from mediocrity but his constant shilling of "Men eat meat" and him claiming that only eating red meat is the key to health really makes me roll my eyes.

Imagine where he could be if he stopped ignoring eating advice because it comes from "the evil fat doctors" and "left propaganda to make us all femboys".

 

[Spenny]

Imagine where he could be if he stopped ignoring eating advice because it comes from "the evil fat doctors" and "left propaganda to make us all femboys".

Script speak is in many places, including leaders, friends, family, and ourselves. People's jaws dropped when they found out I'm vegan. I have muscles that can outrun them, literally. The image of a stereotypical soy boy doesn't match up. Hamza does good work, but he has a lot of values he needs to nail down himself.

I've had quite a lot of conversations with people about veganism and it does surprise me the amount of mental gymnastics people do. I'll make a valid argument and then have another question thrown at me. I only hope that asking these questions makes them second-guess their choices, wether that be tonight or five years from now. We all can change.

 

[cornishpasty]

What is your guys’ opinion of Anthony Chaffee? Perhaps you’ve already spoken about him.

For reference I spent majority of my childhood and teens eating processed meat, was plant based for 3 years but now in the last 4 years I haven’t had any specific dietary restrictions other than avoiding processed foods, so I eat meat dairy etc.

In my opinion I perform and feel better with this more varied diet but I will caveat that by saying that I did not pay as much attention to nutrition when eating vegan, so it’s not a totally fair comparison.

I wouldn't say I’m considering the carnivore diet but some of Chaffee’s findings are definitely interesting regarding fats, cholesterol, amino acids and supposed “plant toxicity”

When trying to verify Chaffee as a source of information I’ve only been able to read opinions of him within the carnivore echo chamber, so it’s very biased. Wondered if you guys on the opposite side of his beliefs had some opinions / arguments?

 

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[Subsonic]

What is your guys’ opinion of Anthony Chaffee? Perhaps you’ve already spoken about him.

For reference I spent majority of my childhood and teens eating processed meat, was plant based for 3 years but now in the last 4 years I haven’t had any specific dietary restrictions other than avoiding processed foods, so I eat meat dairy etc.

In my opinion I perform and feel better with this more varied diet but I will caveat that by saying that I did not pay as much attention to nutrition when eating vegan, so it’s not a totally fair comparison.

I wouldn't say I’m considering the carnivore diet but some of Chaffee’s findings are definitely interesting regarding fats, cholesterol, amino acids and supposed “plant toxicity”

When trying to verify Chaffee as a source of information I’ve only been able to read opinions of him within the carnivore echo chamber, so it’s very biased. Wondered if you guys on the opposite side of his beliefs had some opinions / arguments?

Plants want to be eaten so you poop out the seeds at another place for then to reproduce.

They have no reason to be slightly toxic. I know the argument of "plants defend themselves with toxins and meat defends itself with tusks" but it's not true.

Also, even if carnivore was healthy, could you kill 2 chickens a day and a cow a week ? I can't and I won't pay someone else to do so.

I'll say this, keto has helped me avoid the afternoon crash in the past but doing plant based keto seems a little unreasonable, hence I haven't tried it in a while.

 

[Matt Sun]

What is your guys’ opinion of Anthony Chaffee? Perhaps you’ve already spoken about him.

For reference I spent majority of my childhood and teens eating processed meat, was plant based for 3 years but now in the last 4 years I haven’t had any specific dietary restrictions other than avoiding processed foods, so I eat meat dairy etc.

In my opinion I perform and feel better with this more varied diet but I will caveat that by saying that I did not pay as much attention to nutrition when eating vegan, so it’s not a totally fair comparison.

I wouldn't say I’m considering the carnivore diet but some of Chaffee’s findings are definitely interesting regarding fats, cholesterol, amino acids and supposed “plant toxicity”

When trying to verify Chaffee as a source of information I’ve only been able to read opinions of him within the carnivore echo chamber, so it’s very biased. Wondered if you guys on the opposite side of his beliefs had some opinions / arguments?

Perhaps this video can give you another perspective:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L99HJzseQtc&t=1074s

 

[Matt Sun]

Many gym bros (heavy meat eaters) I follow on twitter are in disbelief because their adored milk drink is *checks notes* wrecking their hormones / lowering their testosterone.
They shill this crap so hard almost daily and now they found it is totally unhealthy lol. But muh don't be a "soy boy" xD

 

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[heavy_industry]

They have no reason to be slightly toxic. I know the argument of "plants defend themselves with toxins and meat defends itself with tusks" but it's not true.

lol

99.99% of all plants and fungi on God's green earth are DEADLY toxic. You're dead in a few hours kind of toxic.

The ones that you find in the supermarket are domesticated, which means that their level of toxicity is greatly reduced, to the point where they are considered to be edible.

Some of them still have small amounts of toxins - for example, eating a few pounds of spinach will kill you on the spot, and a few bulbs of garlic may cause liver failure.

This is not up for debate - it is a well-established scientific fact in botany.

---

What is up for debate, however, is the impact of these toxins on the human body.

Just because they are called "toxins", it doesn't necessarily mean that they are bad. The dose makes the poison.

In biology we have a thing called the "hormetic effect", which works along the lines of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger".

This means that low-level exposure to the toxins available in edible plants (the stuff you buy at the store) may contribute to human health by stimulating our natural defense mechanisms - similar to how lifting weights makes us healthier, despite it being mechanical trauma to the muscles.

 

[Spenny]

99.99% of all plants and fungi on God's green earth are DEADLY toxic. You're dead in a few hours kind of toxic.

Source?

 

[Matt Sun]

Source?

 

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[heavy_industry]

Source?

I swear I saw this one coming - from you in particular


Do I need to cite a source to prove that the VAST MAJORITY of plants are deadly toxic and will land you in the ER or straight to the graveyard if you try to eat them?

You can go into any forest or park - everything you see around you is unbelievably toxic, except for very specific parts of very specific plants, which are usually (but not always) fruits, berries, and flowers.

The only plants that can be eaten are:

1. Domesticated plants you find in the grocery store (100-200 species).
2. Part of the plants that the plant actually wants you to eat - usually the seed-bearing fruit which has been cleared of most toxins, and has been infused with fructose to make it appealing to animals.
3. Plants for which you have a highly-specialized digestive tract and can properly neutralize their toxins and use them for energy (e.g. a Koala bear eating eucalyptus leaves).

View attachment 55871

Hey, that's really nice!

Ask ChatGPT if he is going to pay your medical bill after you graze on the pastures in the local park.

 

[Jon822]

Do I need to cite a source to prove

Found the carnivore on the vegetarian/vegan thread lol

Even if you proved that most plants are toxic, so what? Most of the water on the planet isn't drinkable, so is water unhealthy? Most businesses fail: should people not start businesses? You can't eat the bark off of an apple tree, therefore apples are unhealthy? This argument is nonsense. Avoid the plants that are toxic and eat the ones that aren't. This also ignores the fact that cooking removes the toxins anyway. Soybeans for example are toxic to humans in their raw form but if you cook them in boiling water, they are fine. So even if you proved 100% of all plants are toxic in their raw form, it wouldn't make a difference.

You can go into any forest or park - everything you see around you is unbelievably toxic, except for very specific parts of very specific plants, which are usually (but not always) fruits, berries, and flowers.

Duh? Most of the earth isn't habitable to humans, so should we stop living here? We eat the parts of the plants that we evolved to eat.

You're also implying that plant-based isn't viable without supermarkets, yet the very meat you eat is processed and injected with B12 and other nutrients or else it would kill you even faster than it already does. Actual carnivores eat their meat raw or even while it's still alive so anti-supermarket or "all natural" isn't an argument in your favor.

The reason that carnivores come to this thread with really poor arguments instead of data is because they don't have any. I have done keto and carnivore -- I know all of the cultist arguments: "I fEeL sO mUcH beTteR, wE eVolVeD tO bE iN KeTosIs." It wasn't until I looked at the ACTUAL DATA that it all fell apart and the mathematician in me wouldn't let me hold onto baseless, emotional anecdotes. And trust me, I tried to ignore it. Look at studies that control for (minimize) genetic factors (metabolic ward studies) and you will see what has been proven over and over again: saturated fat and cholesterol are causally linked to heart disease, strokes, and any other disease that is caused by atherosclerosis.

You know I have tremendous respect for you but I highly encourage you to go back to your carnivore groups and really analyze the arguments and "data" that are used.

 

[REV5028]

99.99% of all plants and fungi on God's green earth are DEADLY toxic. You're dead in a few hours kind of toxic.

I think it's interesting to think about how we humans can eat such a wide variety of plants, even though there are so many more that will kill us. Yes, everything in moderation, of course. Too much of anything will kill you, even water, yet water is essential. Additionally, there are sooooo many other animals on this planet who survive on eating a very small variety of food. Like panda bears and koalas - they literally eat like one particular plant their whole lives.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

The reason that carnivores come to this thread with really poor arguments instead of data is because you don't have any. I have done keto and carnivore -- I know all of the cultist arguments:

Funny how they just can't resist, and it doesn't matter how many times I specify that this thread isn't for their tired propaganda.

"lectins"
"seed oils"
"cholesterol doesn't matter"
"plants are poison" (but not the animals who ate those plants prior to slaughter)

Just a random sampling of words you know someone has been completely lobotomized by the propaganda.

So let me repeat...

THIS THREAD ISN'T A DEBATE.

If you want to make it one, you will be removed.

I have done keto and carnivore

So did I, and I'm lucky to have survived that 15-year period of ignorance into my 50s.

As far as I'm concerned, the "MDs" and influencers promoting the carnivore/keto cult are criminals.

The same criminals who told you to get jabbed with an experimental vaccine 10 times.

The same criminals who said smoking was healthy.

Crime pays.

 

[heavy_industry]

Found the carnivore on the vegetarian/vegan thread lol

Even if you proved that most plants are toxic, so what?

So nothing.

This is not an argument for or against any particular way of eating.

I respect your choices and worldview and I am not going to start a debate - not only would that would be very impolite, but it would also go against the purpose of this thread.

---

The only reason I commented here is that I've read someone saying something that is not factual about botany, which piqued my interest.

Botany - the scientific study of plants.

It has nothing to do with any diet.

 

[Jon822]

So nothing.

This is not an argument for or against any particular way of eating.

I respect your choices and worldview and I am not going to start a debate - not only would that would be very impolite, but it would also go against the purpose of this thread.

---

The only reason I commented here is that I've read someone saying something that is not factual about botany, which piqued my interest.

Botany - the scientific study of plants.

It has nothing to do with any diet.

I apologize then: I misunderstood your post. When you say toxic though, I'm assuming you're referring to humans? For example, cows can eat raw soybeans because they have two stomachs so raw soybeans are not toxic to cows. So when you say 99.9% of plants are toxic, you mean toxic to humans?

Again, I didn't mean to attack you -- I simply misunderstood your point.

 

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[REV5028]

I apologize then: I misunderstood your post. When you say toxic though, I'm assuming you're referring to humans? For example, cows can eat raw soybeans because they have two stomachs so raw soybeans are not toxic to cows. So when you say 99.9% of plants are toxic, you mean toxic to humans?

Again, I didn't mean to attack you -- I simply misunderstood your point.

Just because something isn't toxic doesn't mean they should eat it. Cows are not meant to eat soy or corn. They are meant to eat grass. Studies find that ecoli breakouts don't happen with cows fed grass. Cows survive eating corn and soy, but they do not thrive.

 

[heavy_industry]

When you say toxic though, I'm assuming you're referring to humans?

I was referring to the general tendency of plants to engage in chemical warfare against their predators.

It's fascinating to see this evolutionary arms race between plants and animals - toxins meant to repel predators, and detoxifying methods used by animals in response to this evolutionary adaptation.

We, humans - being smart and all - have developed external means of removing toxins from plants (e.g. boiling or otherwise using high temperatures to neutralize these compounds).

I apologize then: I misunderstood your post.

No.

I apologize for not being clear enough in my message and for creating this confusion.

This is not a thread to discuss the science of plants - we need to start a new one for nerds.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

It has nothing to do with any diet.

Understood, but you dropped it in a thread relating to a diet that is focused on eating plant-based.

I also think that most of us would agree that a lot of natural things in the world are poisonous, including plants, mushrooms, licking a frog, monkey livers, slugs ...

This poor kid died eating a slug on a dare.

Sam Ballard, The Australian Teen Who Ate A Slug On A Dare — And Paid For It With His Life

Sam Ballard's friends and family stood by him even as rat lungworm disease paralyzed him.

allthatsinteresting.com

McCandless (from Into the Wild fame) died eating a wild potato. (Yes, plants are poisonous!!!)

How Chris McCandless Died

A new paper presents hitherto unknown evidence that appears to close the book on the cause of Christopher McCandless’s death…

www.newyorker.com

So we understand the generic argument that plants have toxic defenses, including hormetics (cold showers, acupressure mats), but to extrapolate a generic truth to a plant-based diet is just the type of "slippery slope" BS that insults the intelligence of those who done their homework (and have been in both echo chambers), or better, were already card-carrying members of the keto/paleo/carnivore cult for years, and have had the obscene cholesterol numbers and bi-monthly doctor visits to prove it.

Bottomline, it is a popularized weak argument that attracts likes and "amens" from the congregation.

"Men eat meat" and him claiming that only eating red meat is the key to health really makes me roll my eyes.

Again, criminal.

And it will be criminal for the men who take this advice in their 20's find themselves with limp dicks in their 30s. I'm sure ya will feel real "manly" then, eh?

But don't worry, the direct correlation between increased meat consumption and Viagra prescriptions is no correlation at all. It's just an anomaly you can ignore.

At least you can call "Hims" after you eat that steak; they'll get the dysfunction sorted out.

 

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[Jon822]

Just because something isn't toxic doesn't mean they should eat it. Cows are not meant to eat soy or corn. They are meant to eat grass. Studies find that ecoli breakouts don't happen with cows fed grass. Cows survive eating corn and soy, but they do not thrive.

I wasn't saying that they should. I was just demonstrating that saying 99.9% of all plants are toxic is very different than saying 99.9% of all plants are toxic to humans.

 

[Matt Sun]

Many gym bros (heavy meat eaters) I follow on twitter are in disbelief because their adored milk drink is *checks notes* wrecking their hormones / lowering their testosterone.
They shill this crap so hard almost daily and now they found it is totally unhealthy lol. But muh don't be a "soy boy" xD




View attachment 55870

The funniest thing about this is that many of this meat eaters shilling fairlife regularly bash Bryan Johnson who is all about measuring everything and has been vocal about companies not divulging the content of their food products and if they are properly tested for toxins, the results etc.

And they were promoting this crap like it was the holy grail of gym brotein.

Muh "he looks so bad like a vegan vampire bro !!"

 

[Subsonic]

I was referring to the general tendency of plants to engage in chemical warfare against their predators.

It's fascinating to see this evolutionary arms race between plants and animals - toxins meant to repel predators, and detoxifying methods used by animals in response to this evolutionary adaptation.

We, humans - being smart and all - have developed external means of removing toxins from plants (e.g. boiling or otherwise using high temperatures to neutralize these compounds).


No.

I apologize for not being clear enough in my message and for creating this confusion.

This is not a thread to discuss the science of plants - we need to start a new one for nerds.

Man I just read this after writing out a half essay on plant ecology and the natural mechanisms. There go 10 minutes haha.

 

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[heavy_industry]

Man I just read this after writing out a half essay on plant ecology and the natural mechanisms. There go 10 minutes haha.

If you plagiarize any of what I said to finish your homework - I will find out.

@piano please keep an eye on him.

 

[MTF]

So I've been on a road trip the recent weeks from Poland, through Slovakia, Austria, and Hungary and soon going to Slovenia and the Balkans...

I use Happycow to find vegan restaurants and man, I'm so impressed how many vegan restaurants I can find now even in rather random places with relatively small populations.

Vienna in particular so far has been super easy for veganism. It has a few dozen vegan restaurants (though many are branches of the same chain), two completely vegan supermarkets (and any regular supermarket has tons of vegan food), a vegan bakery, a vegan smoothie/acai bowl bar, 10 or so locations of a purely vegan ice cream chain, and whatever else you may need including a vegan hair salon and a vegan tattoo studio.

I've also noticed a very interesting relationship regarding the availability of vegan restaurants and the vibe of the city.

Namely, if a city has some nice, modern, healthy vegan restaurants (not some shitty fast food vegan joints), then it's most likely going to be a place where I feel good.

If there are no such restaurants, the place often has a backward feel (since a lack of vegan restaurants indicates that people are rather traditional and tourists who come there are the same as well).

Here are some photos of food, everything from 100% vegan places:

Vegan Vietnamese in Vienna:



Super clean and nice vegan cafe in Bratislava:



Vegan ice pops in Budapest:



Surf-style vegan smoothie/acai bar in Vienna (everything certified organic):



Vegan pizza in Vienna (certified organic as well):



And a super funny thing I saw while checking out one vegan restaurant: