The Ukraine War, implications, outcome?

[missinfinity98]

Worse, we produce nothing of value any longer as anything valuable has been outsourced to other countries.

What economic strength do we have? If you threaten us we will embargo you from ordering Samsung TVs from Walmart, oh wait, we get those from S. Korea!



Wow, history knows him as the ultimate groveling appeaser, like the USA is now.

US does produce stuff of value, it is not all black and white... <3

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOXZkm9p_zY

 

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[Deleted74338]

Quite concearning how many people here are on Russia's side. This is a clear invasion that the Ukrainian people certainly do not want, and this is the end of the story. You can't justify Russia's invasion of Ukraine, because if the Ukrainians wanted to join Russia, they would have done so a long time ago.

I have no authority on the matter, but what I belive is that Putin is getting old and irrelevant, and he knows he doesn't have much more time left as leader of Russia, and if you have know a bit about Putin is that he considers the fall of the USSR a massive mistake, which is why he is now trying to somewhat repair that mistake with the time he has left.

Hopefully this whole situation does not spill into other countries, but it seems like NATO is itching to get involved.

 

[Hadrian]

Quite concearning how many people here are on Russia's side. This is a clear invasion that the Ukrainian people certainly do not want, and this is the end of the story. You can't justify Russia's invasion of Ukraine, because if the Ukrainians wanted to join Russia, they would have done so a long time ago.

I have no authority on the matter, but what I belive is that Putin is getting old and irrelevant, and he knows he doesn't have much more time left as leader of Russia, and if you have know a bit about Putin is that he consider the fall of the USSR a massive mistake, which is why he is now trying to somewhat repair that mistake with the time he has left.

Hopefully this whole situation does not spill into other countries, but it seems like NATO is itching to get involved.

It is depressing but try to remember the internet is largely the domain of the Keyboard Warrior, the troll. Real warriors are out doing stuff. Will see if I can get MJ's permission to make a Ukraine Action Thread and leave this one for the keyboard warriors to flex their imaginary muscles.

Another step forward against Russian Fascism...

Additional Military Assistance for Ukraine - United States Department of State

This package will include further lethal defensive assistance to help Ukraine address the armored, airborne, and other threats it is now facing.

www.state.gov

 

[Fox]

At the start of Covid I saw some clips from China that I believed to be real. It was of people collapsing on the street, having violent seizures etc.

I went into full prepper mode right away and spent around two weeks in a row stocking up on food, medical gear, axes, survival books, tactical flashlights etc.

Since I lived in Poland I feared the worst - if society collapsed I don’t know the local language nor can I blend in.

There were quite a few weeks where I was super paranoid and feared the worst.

Flash forward two years later and we can now see that this was 99% panic and fear with not much based in reality. We know the news was heavily manipulated, we know certain people made obscene profits, and that there were agendas behind a lot of “information”.

My advice for people on this thread is to refrain from getting caught up in the panic.

- Don’t trust either side or any media source. Every media outfit is playing for someone.

- Dont try and see things so black and white. These are complex countries with complex histories. War is nothing new and both sides usually feel they are in the right.

- If you feel compelled to do something - then actually do something. Posting on a business forum is unlikely to have any real impact to anyone who is actually in this situation. Anyone can fly to Poland in a day and go work a week at the border helping people. @MTF had a great post early about donations that sets the example.

- and keep in mind the power of perspective….
> Trump
> the Clinton’s
> Biden
> Trudeau
> Putin
ALL of these leaders have people who absolutely hate them and who absolutely love them. Attacking peoples stance directly doesn’t change any one’s mind.

I think overall that these types of situations are only going to be more common in the years ahead. Use these moments to practice rational thinking and acting within your sphere of control.

 

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[MattR82]

It is depressing but try to remember the internet is largely the domain of the Keyboard Warrior, the troll. Real warriors are out doing stuff. Will see if I can get MJ's permission to make a Ukraine Action Thread and leave this one for the keyboard warriors to flex their imaginary muscles.

Another step forward against Russian Fascism...

Additional Military Assistance for Ukraine - United States Department of State

This package will include further lethal defensive assistance to help Ukraine address the armored, airborne, and other threats it is now facing.

www.state.gov

So what is it you are thinking of doing? Are you going over there or doing something based from Ireland?

 

[Fox]

Will see if I can get MJ's permission to make a Ukraine Action Thread and leave this one for the keyboard warriors to flex their imaginary muscles.

Lead by example. If you want an action thread, then post action in this thread.

@MTF is already doing this a page few pages back.

 

[Hadrian]

Lead by example. If you want an action thread, then post action in this thread.

@MTF is already doing this a page few pages back.

I would happy to set up a Ukraine Action thread and keep this as the keyboard warrior thread. Your part as an admin is to make sure any post in it that isn’t an direct action post is removed. Deal?

 

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[p0stscript]

"-Zelensky should never have kept angering Putin by wanting to join NATO, because that would mean US missiles right at Russia's doorstep (btw, what would the US gov say if Russia builds missile bases in the northernmost part of Mexico or in Ontario, Canada?)"

or perhaps Cuba even, hang on.....

 

[MattR82]

That there are no good guys is a point I can agree with, but to say that we can't choose between evils is wrong. It's our duty to side with the lesser evil.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ10LZo14wI&ab_channel=60MinutesAustralia

Are you familiar with channel 9 in Australia where that video is from?

 

[Fox]

I would happy to set up a Ukraine Action thread and keep this as the keyboard warrior thread. Your part as an admin is to make sure any post in it that isn’t an direct action post is removed. Deal?

Just do it already if that is what you want to do.

Instead of being in this "keyboard warrior thread" you could have already started your new thread 10 times over.

You don't need permission to lead and what is ALWAYS most effective is just setting the example yourself.

Why are focusing on a few people who disagree with and using all your energy on that?

Just start it now and then go take action.

 

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[Marigold]

At the start of Covid I saw some clips from China that I believed to be real. It was of people collapsing on the street, having violent seizures etc.

I went into full prepper mode right away and spent around two weeks in a row stocking up on food, medical gear, axes, survival books, tactical flashlights etc.

Since I lived in Poland I feared the worst - if society collapsed I don’t know the local language nor can I blend in.

There were quite a few weeks where I was super paranoid and feared the worst.

Flash forward two years later and we can now see that this was 99% panic and fear with not much based in reality. We know the news was heavily manipulated, we know certain people made obscene profits, and that there were agendas behind a lot of “information”.

My advice for people on this thread is to refrain from getting caught up in the panic.

- Don’t trust either side or any media source. Every media outfit is playing for someone.

- Dont try and see things so black and white. These are complex countries with complex histories. War is nothing new and both sides usually feel they are in the right.

- If you feel compelled to do something - then actually do something. Posting on a business forum is unlikely to have any real impact to anyone who is actually in this situation. Anyone can fly to Poland in a day and go work a week at the border helping people. @MTF had a great post early about donations that sets the example.

- and keep in mind the power of perspective….
> Trump
> the Clinton’s
> Biden
> Trudeau
> Putin
ALL of these leaders have people who absolutely hate them and who absolutely love them. Attacking peoples stance directly doesn’t change any one’s mind.

I think overall that these types of situations are only going to be more common in the years ahead. Use these moments to practice rational thinking and acting within your sphere of control.

Absolutely. It's mind-boggling to me that many can't see that.

I'd also add that using these moments to prep wouldn't be a bad idea. The ramifications will be felt in a lot of different areas that we've only just scraped the surface of in the aftermath of covid.

 

[MitchC]

Since this threads already full of absolute garbage I’m going to post this here, I haven’t fact checked any of it and I don’t actually care, no one knows what’s true, but I’m sure someone here will love to point out how it’s all lies and the west isn’t corrupt. No idea who this Wayne Root guy is either.

“Ukraine = Hunter Biden/Joe Biden dealings & corruption, stealing millions from American tax payers to funnel money to Ukraine.

Nancy Pelosi’s son Paul sits on the board of a Ukrainian energy company.

Romney’s son does too.

John Kerry’s son.

Biden’s son.

Now you know why we're "helping" Ukraine & why Pelosi is running again.

The tentacles of Ukraine corruption capture Cofer Black of Bush's 9/11 cabinet, Obama, Biden, Soros, Schiff, Pelosi, Bolton, John Kerry, Romney, & the Clintons.”

CIA-trained Ukrainian paramilitaries may take central role if Russia invades

The CIA is overseeing a secret training program in the U.S. for elite Ukrainian special operations forces and other intelligence personnel.

nz.news.yahoo.com

CIA trained paramilitary troops in Ukraine?

 

[Hadrian]

Just do it already if that is what you want to do.

Instead of being in this "keyboard warrior thread" you could have already started your new thread 10 times over.

You don't need permission to lead and what is ALWAYS most effective is just setting the example yourself.

Why are focusing on a few people who disagree with and using all your energy on that?

Just start it now and then go take action.

Once I get an answer. Will you remove the keyboard warrior-Action faker posts and leave only the Warrior-Action taker posts.

The fight to free 41 million Europeans from Russian Fascism is not a theoretical debate.

Capiche?

 

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[MattR82]

Nancy Pelosi’s son Paul sits on the board of a Ukrainian energy company.

Romney’s son does too.

John Kerry’s son.

Biden’s son.

I think it's false.

 

[MattR82]

Once I get an answer. Will you remove the keyboard warrior-Action faker posts and leave only the Warrior-Action taker posts.

The fight to free 41 million Europeans from Russian Fascism is not a theoretical debate.

Capiche?

Idiot.

Ignore. Bye.

 

[Simon Angel]

Once I get an answer. Will you remove the keyboard warrior-Action faker posts and leave only the Warrior-Action taker posts.

The fight to free 41 million Europeans from Russian Fascism is not a theoretical debate.

Capiche?

Pictured here:

@Hadrian owning Russian trolls and keyboard warrior-action fakers on TFF circa ~2022

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

Well, regarding the keyboard warriors, and “doing something”, there are different kinds of people.

Intellectuals have always fought with words. And stating facts, defending the truth, and promoting the right values are ways of resisting and fighting against oppression. And intellectuals have been crucial in fighting off cruelty, oppression and evil. They are not to be disparged simply because they don’t pick up a gun and start shooting.

Socrates, Jesus Christ, Mahatma Ghandi and so on were all intellectuals. They fought through the power of their ideas. And they have had a far greater impact on our history than any Alexander or Caesar.

Now every kind of person is needed for society to function. You can’t just have intellectuals, you also need warriors who pick up the sword and go fighting, economic producers who supply them with what they need and so on.

But rest assuared that exposing the crimes of the Putin regime isn’t “doing nothing”. Exposing propaganda as false isn’t “doing nothing”. Those people who went to protest today in Berlin aren’t “doing nothing”. Their protest is bearing fruit by putting pressure on their leaders to enact tougher sanctions. A coalition is required from all elements of society… some will fight, some will provide aid and supplies, some will combat Russian propaganda, some will protest and so on.

 

[Antifragile]

Since this threads already full of absolute garbage

Main reason I stopped posting updates from my family here. Most people seem interested in garbage than reality.

It’s so sad that I have a knot in my throat. Like something pressing on your chest with stress. Reports from the people who live there are just horrific. Feeling that pain removes the desire to debate on off-hand couch heroes posts.

 

[Simon Angel]

Main reason I stopped posting updates from my family here. Most people seem interested in garbage than reality.

It’s so sad that I have a knot in my throat. Like something pressing on your chest with stress. Reports from the people who live there are just horrific. Feeling that pain removes the desire to debate on off-hand couch heroes posts.

Where in Ukraine did you say they were? Are they safe at the moment, do they have any weapons on hand? I hope they'll be OK and that this is done and over with sooner rather than later.

From what I know, women can leave the country but not men. This means sending your wife/daughter/mother to walk to the border by themselves for kilometers without any protection, which is deterring most families from going through with it.

 

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[Kevin88660]

Zelenskiy and ministers ARE ordinary people. Many of the current MPs are ordinary people.
Ukrainians chose Zelenskiy, so he has to stay. If Ukrainians don't like him, Ukrainians will find someone else. It's that simple.

In Yanukovich era you could be "disappeared" for speaking out against the government. Would you like that happen to you? In Ukraine now you can insult the president into his face and you're free to do so. Free speech, free will, freedom.
In Russia you will be arrested or killed.

Example: my great grandfather was sentenced to execution. Do you know for what? He built a steam-powered mill. Yes. This is not a misspelling. ALL of Fastlaners would be sent to camps in those times. For working hard. The only thing that saved my great-grandfather (and hence why I exist) is the Chief of the prison camp saw how useful my gramps could be to a concentration camp (fixing, building stuff) and sent him there instead. He was an ordinary man.

Please, educate yourself on the history of the region before making conclusions. Read the posts by other members who have more knowledge (@kristkaa , @Black_Dragon43) If you find that your point of view contradicts what we all say, we, the people with more knowledge and experience in the matter, then maybe it's time to reconsider?

Please note that I'm not saying that the US are great.


70% of Ukrainians opposed NATO before 2013.

You great grandfather lived in Soviet time.

Soviet Union was over for 30 years. And Stalin atrocities were denounced internally as early as 1950s by the successor of USSR.

That is like saying U.S. is hell in human rights because the KKK used to lynch minorities in the south.

Russia ranked moderately low in Economic freedom in the 110th category as South Africa.

Russia ranked fairly high in the ease of doing business index such as Austria and Japan, in the 20s in terms of ranking.

Not to mention St Petersburg and Moscow have infrastructure and hygiene standard that put modern day New York City in shame.

I have friends in Russia who post daily about their protest about Putin’s alleged hidden wealth oversea. They have never been killed or arrested.

Look I know the other side of the story very well. I am not from the west. And most non-western countries have authoritarian politics. I know exactly how the modus operandi of authoritarian politics work. If you are a famous and influential businessman who decides to venture into politics against Putin, be prepared for sudden tax audit in your business, or an investigation on sudden evidence of your paying for service from local “call girl” 7 years ago which was of course illegal.

Everything is done “professionally with the accordance of the law”, just to let you know who is in charge.

So if you are a businessman escaping from high taxation, high regulation and persistent neighborhood crime from a so called “free” western country, and you have zero interest in getting noisy about local politics, your lives could be better off.

 

[Antifragile]

Where in Ukraine did you say they were? Are they safe at the moment, do they have any weapons on hand? I hope they'll be OK and that this is done and over with sooner rather than later.

From what I know, women can leave the country but not men. This means sending your wife/daughter/mother to walk to the border by themselves for kilometers without any protection, which is deterring most families from going through with it.

Line ups to the Polish border are 35 km long (as of yesterday!). The roads have thousands of cars, many out of gas, stranded etc. Supplies for food are difficult to obtain. Local "businessmen" have taken this as opportunity to hoard and re-sell for massive profit.

My family is now consolidated in the West of Ukraine and are safe. Some took 2 days of travel to get there from Kyiv.

Thanks for your concern and for asking. I too hope for a resolution sooner rather than later as I think it'll cost too many lives, it already has.

 

[Kevin88660]

Main reason I stopped posting updates from my family here. Most people seem interested in garbage than reality.

It’s so sad that I have a knot in my throat. Like something pressing on your chest with stress. Reports from the people who live there are just horrific. Feeling that pain removes the desire to debate on off-hand couch heroes posts.

More people (distant foreigners) have no stake in the Ukraine vs Russia conflict and are just using it as a tool to attack their LOCAL political opponent.

Trump supporter : This wont happen if Trump is here!

Biden supporter : It will be worse because Trump is in cahoot with Putin!

Evangelical Christians: I support Putin because I think he is anti-gay!

Hippy peace lover: I support Ukraine but let us not make this a chance for military industrial complex to make money!


I am saying only Americans are doing this. Many other nationalities online are doing the exact same thing.

 

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[MTF]

Main reason I stopped posting updates from my family here. Most people seem interested in garbage than reality.

Please keep posting updates or at least send me a PM.

It’s so sad that I have a knot in my throat. Like something pressing on your chest with stress. Reports from the people who live there are just horrific. Feeling that pain removes the desire to debate on off-hand couch heroes posts.

Many people in Poland feel the same way. There's shared history, similar culture, many Ukrainians living in Poland, and of course a shared border.

Being so close to it makes you see the situation from a completely different perspective than a person from the US who's too far away to feel like it has something to do with them.

I feel that knot every day and so do people around me.

I assume that's why so many people want to do something so that at least they can feel in control of something vs obsessively checking the news every 10 minutes. All the support people in Poland offer to refugees is extremely uplifting. It feels as if the entire nation was focused on a single goal right now.

I just got back with the first big donation of clothes and stuff collected from my family (I'm gathering it all this week to deliver to a center next weekend). I'm not sure if I'll be able to fit it all in my SUV but a friend already volunteered to transport it in his car as well.

A major non-profit at the border says they already have enough stuff for everyone (on the Polish side of the border). Most people who manage to cross the border just want to take a shower, sleep, and go deeper into the country where they have a family or a place to stay.

But the non-profit also says that it's going to be a marathon. They don't want people to donate whatever they can now in huge amounts and not be able to help next week or next month. The number of people entering Poland has been growing rapidly. It's already over 200,000 people and each day there's almost 100,000 more.

I hope that today's peace talks bring positive news.

 

[Kevin88660]

This feels like mass formation all over again.

Don't forget - right before this war broke out, the stink of global corruption around the jab narrative was beginning to gather steam. Our elites have lied and manipulated the global population. Billions of people have been injected with a product with no available safety profile, pushed by fraudulent trial studies, under a false "emergency" pretense.

Most countries are still under a "state of emergency", and our politicians paired with interest groups have been acting lawlessly.

I get it, this is a pivotal moment in history, but be mindful not to fall for the narrative change. Keep your eyes open.

All the Ukraine support I see reminds me of the same foolishness we saw at the beginning of the pandemic when everybody was condemning anybody that dared to speak out against what was happening. Notice how the consensus around the happenings rn are centered around "Support Ukraine, Russia bad evil". This is not by accident. This is a narrative that's being pushed out.

Notice all the "Zelensky is a hero" narratives. Notice how this man most people knew next to nothing about is being praised as some hero. Notice that while this loud voice is echoing support for Ukraine, nation states are taking tax-payer funds to "help ukraine". What does Trudeau or Biden have to do with funding Ukraine? Why are we shoveling billions of dollars into the military complex whilst our own nations are suffering from inflation, stalling economies, and high unemployment?

I don't know who's at fault here, and what we ought to do about it as individuals other than to stay focused on our own problems and not get carried away with narratives. We have serious problems all around the world due to the same people that are now pushing for "democracy". The sheeple pushing for war spending to "defend democracy in Ukraine" need to pay attention to how "defend public health" has been pillaging our nations' coffers for 2 straight years.

To the "defend democracy in Ukraine" group: what do you really know about history, about Ukraine, about geopolitics? Are you sure you're not just echoing what you see on the internet as the prevailing morally "good" opinion?

The fact that the entire mindspace has shifted focus from anything else to "save Ukraine" should be a reminder to you that the internet, media, radio, academia, public health, national organizations, are all echoing the same thing. Ask yourself why.

Good post!

Always think and ponder about the assumption of the narrative.

I am getting a little suspicious on how Biden had the perfect intelligence to be sure that Putin is real about the full scale military operation.

Remember U.S. intelligence couldn’t even catch 911 beforehand.

Biden is sending the vibe to Russia that “We know you are invading best rest assured that we are not getting involved militarily. And we know you don’t care about the sanctions but we are doing it to appease the critics and our allies”.

European market tank. U.S. market rebound. Russia takes the land and population while U.S. grabs the money.

 

[Fastlane Liam]

What is the actual reason for the invasion?

 

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[Kevin88660]

What is the actual reason for the invasion?

Official Reason: Neo-nazi government in Ukraine pushing policies against ethnic Russian Ukrainians on the verge of a genocide.

Geopolitical reason : Putin wanted assurance that Ukraine will never be in NATO

Other possible reason: Shrinking population and population expansion through war, get all the neighboring ethnic Russians and cultural similar groups to join back the Russian federation. Putin has been dealing with the birth rate problem with little success.

 

[Marigold]

Official Reason: Neo-nazi government in Ukraine pushing policies against ethnic Russian Ukrainians on the verge of a genocide.

Geopolitical reason : Putin wanted assurance that Ukraine will never be in NATO

Other possible reason: Shrinking population and population expansion through war, get all the neighboring ethnic Russians and cultural similar groups to join back the Russian federation. Putin has been dealing with the birth rate problem with little success.

Don't ask me for the official stats but the Ukraine is also a massive exporter or fertiliser and wheat as with Russia. We're in for troubling times growing food.

 

[daivey]

If it means that me and my family will be safe, but that my house will be captured intact by the enemy, then yes, I would like my house captured intact.

Anyway, all that matters now is for the war to end fast to minimize the loss of lives. Because of that, I personally don't like the idea of Uncle Sam and his friends sending weapons to Ukraine, because it'll only cause more chaos and prolong the war, which is Uncle Sam's goal. In a way, UA and RU have already lost the moment Putin made the first strike.

the fact that people can't figure out this a proxy war for USA is unreal to me. but maybe I'm wrong. maybe this is worth people fighting for. I haven't seen a compelling argument. Only people comparing Putin to Hitler. Maybe they are right.

 

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[loop101]

Quite concearning how many people here are on Russia's side.

When Muhammad Ali refused to fight in the Vietnam War, one of his reasons was that "No Vietcong ever called me ni**er." His point being that not only had the Vietcong never been his enemy, but America frequently had. I see a similar feeling in America.

White American men have been vilified by the media, and now the government, for many years. Traditionally, these men were the ones that fought America's wars. Now, not only do they not want to fight for a system that hates them, they are sometimes rooting for the opposition. You can see this in various online forums when people say, "Putin never called me a racist."

Russia also appears to enforce "conservative values", they don't have BLM or Antifa riots, transgenderism, or their kids being taught CRT in school. A country like Russia looks like a better place for a White Christian family. That is the optics. The number of Americans that are rooting for Russia is concerning, but it is only surprising because the reason is not discussed.

 

[Kevin88660]

Does that include not getting a bullet in your head for upsetting the wrong crowd?


So this kind of moral hypocrisy according to you is better than what you have in the West? Basically “committ as many crimes as you want, if you’re on our side, you’re free, we’ll just keep gathering the evidence in case you decide to change camps”?

I don’t see this as being done “in accordance with the law”. The law doesn’t say only persecute crimes if they are your political opponent otherwise turn a blind eye. Let’s not forget Hodorkovski who literarily got his entire company taken over by the state when he upset Putin. And what about cases of poisoning like Litvinenko or cases of FABRICATED EVIDENCE against you? As in fake tax documents and so on forged just to create a reason to take you out. Is that also done “professionally and in accordance with the law”?

Most people are just not at Hodorkovski level to be even targeted even if they want to.

When I say “in accordance with the law” I am not justifying it. I put in “ “ to sound sarcastic too. I am saying is no one is clean, especially business owners. So the powers that be can take you out legally and they rarely need to do it illegally. This is called “prosecutorial discretion” in which the abuse of it can hardly be proven in real life. They can choose a tough interpretation of a minor offense and prolong the litigation period to just financially or emotionally drain you. They can play games with you and the burden of proof is on you that they are “politically motivated” and it can never be proven. Even in U.S. it sometimes happen just to the wiki leak founder they tried using prostitution charges and national security laws to extradite him, which happens far more frequently in non-western countries.

My point is when the government wants to fix you they don’t need to “forge evidence” or “falsify things” which is risky, they just need to fully use the magnifying glass and bureaucratic power provided by the state apparatus. If you think government needs to frame people to get people into trouble you are underestimating how powerful government is. Unless you are a trained legal professional Government can fix you within the rules of the games in 101 ways that you don’t even know they exist.
-You slept with a girl last week, call her and terrorize her for a rape statement. Happened to the European central banker who warned his country to move their gold out of U.S.
-Business owner? Start with Tax audit! Most cannot pass it 100 percent!
-payment dispute with client? Sounds like a fraud investigation!

They don’t even need to convict you. They just harass you legally for rounds and rounds of investigation that your life and business life is screwed. What about handcuffing you in front of your clients? Ya you are free to go after 6 months of investigation due to “lack of evidence”. Your business is fuked!

It is letting you know who is in charge and what price you will pay.

Khodorkovsky case is a turning point where there is significant improvement in rule if laws. Putin and friends did realize if their reputation is too bad that’s bad for foreign investment.

All I was saying is Russia is not Soviet Union and not modern day North Korea.